IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-09-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  17. [02:54:45] <mfbot> [[events/2006-09-13-future-of-web-apps-microformats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-09-13-future-of-web-apps-microformats * Tantek * (+670) drafted
  18. [02:56:01] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8484 * Tantek * (-1) link to new page for Future of Web Apps session
  19. [02:59:42] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8485 * Tantek * (+14)
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  48. [08:43:22] <Whiskey_M> 'lo :)
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  51. [08:54:16] <keithalexander> morning
  52. [08:55:30] <drewinthehead> mornin'
  53. [08:56:17] <bunnywabbit_> morning (soon noon)
  54. [09:11:21] <Whiskey_M> how goes?
  55. [09:13:40] <keithalexander> ok here
  56. [09:14:49] <keithalexander> Whiskey_M, I wanted to ask you yesterday what the difference between 'Plain Old XML' and 'XML' is ?
  57. [09:16:42] <Whiskey_M> Keith, I don't know - I just know XML. Although given the arguments on Sunday I'd rather stay away from the whole XML discussion and agree to disagree with the MF line about XML
  58. [09:18:48] <keithalexander> Well, I wouldn't attack you on it. I find the whole xml/namespaces considered harmful thing rather curious.
  59. [09:19:48] <keithalexander> I don't get it - I figured that maybe POX meant something specific that I wasn't aware of, and that's why I didn't get it
  60. [09:25:08] <keithalexander> Anyway, I'm with you. I don't think it's necessary to say that xml is bad to say that mf is good - not without a very clear context of a particular application.
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  77. [11:13:06] <davecardwell> keithalexander: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_Old_XML
  78. [11:13:21] <davecardwell> POX is XML
  79. [11:14:15] <keithalexander> so when someone says 'POX', instead of 'XML', they're just being cute?
  80. [11:17:14] * pecus (n=pecus@dial-b3-107-107.telepac.pt) Quit ()
  81. [11:22:31] <davecardwell> looks like it :p
  82. [11:22:44] <davecardwell> we need more confusing acronyms in the web development world
  83. [11:22:54] <keithalexander> that's what I was thinking
  84. [11:23:16] <keithalexander> acronyms for our acronyms
  85. [11:23:21] <davecardwell> heh
  86. [11:23:35] <davecardwell> keeps out the newbies
  87. [11:23:50] <keithalexander> web dev is way too accessible
  88. [11:26:30] <keithalexander> actually, that's pretty interesting: that's the first time, I think, that I've heard of an acronym for referring to another acronym
  89. [11:27:14] <keithalexander> it's a bit different from recursive acronyms like GNU
  90. [11:27:19] <trovster> RSS?
  91. [11:27:51] <keithalexander> sort of
  92. [11:28:16] <keithalexander> but POX is a bit different
  93. [11:29:27] <keithalexander> if POX really isn't a type of XML, merely a 'familiar' way of referring to it...
  94. [11:33:35] <keithalexander> RSS is an interesting acronym too though - the format so good they named it thrice?
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  97. [11:50:41] <drewinthehead> POX is more of a mindset around XML :)
  98. [11:53:59] <drewinthehead> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_Old_XML
  99. [11:54:11] <drewinthehead> ah, i see you've read that ;)
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  101. [11:58:41] <drewinthehead> i think the issue is with dreaming up some POX schema and pushing it out onto the public web
  102. [11:59:29] <drewinthehead> nothing wrong with XML - but for publishing publicly on the web it's been tried and failed way too many times
  103. [11:59:52] * briansuda steps into drewinthehead having a conversation with himself
  104. [12:00:17] <drewinthehead> it's like i'm pacing an empty room practising a presentation ;)
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  106. [12:00:31] <briansuda> except this is all logged
  107. [12:01:04] <drewinthehead> davecardwell and keithalexander were discussing POX a short while ago ... relatively close in the scrollback :)
  108. [12:02:07] <briansuda> there was a conversation last night as well, bewest was talking about all the mal-formed documents they found
  109. [12:03:19] * drewinthehead eats malformed documents for lunch
  110. [12:03:26] <keithalexander> what constitutes failure?
  111. [12:03:49] <drewinthehead> lack of mass adoption, i guess
  112. [12:04:30] <drewinthehead> benchmarks for mass adoption: HTML, XHTML, CSS, JavaScript...
  113. [12:04:41] <drewinthehead> RSS
  114. [12:05:28] <drewinthehead> examples of failure anyone?
  115. [12:05:32] <drewinthehead> FOAF?
  116. [12:06:09] <keithalexander> I suspect that this anit-poxiness is some kind of reaction against outragous claims made for xml that i'm not aware of
  117. [12:06:27] <briansuda> i wouldn't say lack of mass adoption is failure... (trying to find a good example of a very niche property that didn't fail, but isn't widely adopted)
  118. [12:06:53] <keithalexander> but I would have thought that the value of custom xml is in niche uses, so mass-adoption wouldn't have been a goal?
  119. [12:06:54] <drewinthehead> surely when talking about the web, mass adoption is essential for any format
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  121. [12:07:36] <drewinthehead> what's an example of custom xml in a niche on the web?
  122. [12:07:58] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=8486 * Brian * (+2078) Added Outstanding issues
  123. [12:08:11] <drewinthehead> i can think of lots of examples over http, for example, but not specifically the public web
  124. [12:08:44] <briansuda> well the other issue with "mass adoption" is when? at some point in HTML 2.0 they could have said "rel/rev" isn't being used, lets deprecated it... now it is used quite alot
  125. [12:09:03] <briansuda> XHTML 2.0 has removed the profile attribute
  126. [12:09:11] <keithalexander> i guess people using bits of xml in web applications, like data islands or whatever
  127. [12:09:54] <briansuda> XML-RPC sort of died, there is SOAP but that is not public-web
  128. [12:10:01] <drewinthehead> but is that published on the web, or is it internal use, keithalexander?
  129. [12:10:43] <keithalexander> well, that's one of the things that I'm not clear about in the statement 'failed on the web'
  130. [12:11:51] <keithalexander> - what constitutes being 'on the web'? Perhaps it is perfectly obvious to everyone else...
  131. [12:12:24] <keithalexander> XML-RPC died?
  132. [12:12:30] <drewinthehead> it seems perfectly obvious to me, until i think about RSS and FOAF :)
  133. [12:12:34] <cbarrett> XML-RPC died?
  134. [12:12:43] <cbarrett> News to me.
  135. [12:13:27] <keithalexander> don't frighten wordpress users - we didn't know it was dead
  136. [12:13:29] <mfbot> [[screencasts-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=screencasts-fr&diff=0&oldid=8487 * ChristopheDucamp * (+116) cette année -
  137. [12:13:44] * dc__ is now known as dc_
  138. [12:14:42] <drewinthehead> REST would appear to be the phoenix that rose from the ashes of the SOAP/XML-RPC war
  139. [12:14:54] <cbarrett> I have no idea as far as blogs go -- I meant as just an RPC method.
  140. [12:15:00] * drewinthehead likes to mix metaphors
  141. [12:15:01] <cbarrett> I've seen it used in non-web situations.
  142. [12:15:12] <cbarrett> drewinthehead: it worked, this time ;)
  143. [12:15:32] <cbarrett> REST isn't really in the same category as SOAP or XML-RPC though... REST is just a vague idea.
  144. [12:15:43] <cbarrett> It's not a data format.
  145. [12:15:52] <drewinthehead> true
  146. [12:16:21] <cbarrett> it is being used in the same sort of situations that SOAP and XML-RPC were being used in, though. You are right about that.
  147. [12:16:28] <drewinthehead> perhaps that's why it's so popular
  148. [12:16:35] <cbarrett> indeed
  149. [12:16:37] <drewinthehead> lightweight and easy
  150. [12:16:43] <drewinthehead> hmmm ... sounds familiar
  151. [12:16:48] <cbarrett> hah
  152. [12:16:57] <Whiskey_M> I wouldn't say SOAP is dead, I end up having to use it all the time to talk to this, that or the other
  153. [12:17:05] <drewinthehead> thanks to MS
  154. [12:17:08] <cbarrett> I've seen XML-RPC used frequently by pythonistas.
  155. [12:17:09] <drewinthehead> MS love their SOAP
  156. [12:17:22] <drewinthehead> isn't the Atom PP based on XML-RPC?
  157. [12:17:24] <Whiskey_M> doesn't stop them from smelling ;)
  158. [12:17:57] <drewinthehead> boom-tish!
  159. [12:18:50] <mfbot> [[events/2006-09-19-eurooscon]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-19-eurooscon&diff=0&oldid=8488 * Brian * (+396) Added hCalendar in comments (Media Wiki Escapes 'a' elements
  160. [12:19:49] <briansuda> XML-RPC doesn't support UTF-8 or binary - i'm pretty sure there is no further development on th espec
  161. [12:20:15] <briansuda> I thought Atom PP was RESTful (GET POST PUT DELETE)
  162. [12:22:21] <cbarrett> briansuda: Right, but I've still seen it used as an RPC mechanism for communicating between two python scripts.
  163. [12:22:23] <drewinthehead> you're probably correct, briansuda
  164. [12:22:32] <cbarrett> iirc it's the recommended RPC for python.
  165. [12:23:08] <drewinthehead> that's not publishing-on-the-web though
  166. [12:23:23] <cbarrett> sure.
  167. [12:23:35] <cbarrett> it's still XML-RPC, though, as far as I can tell.
  168. [12:23:55] <drewinthehead> APP is RESTful - confirmed.
  169. [12:24:01] <briansuda> JSON is the new flavour of the month
  170. [12:24:04] <Whiskey_M> hopefully svg will grow - but I don't think it could be said to be successful yet
  171. [12:24:05] <drewinthehead> mmmm JSON
  172. [12:24:10] <keithalexander> anyway, I don't like the strategy of saying that things have 'failed on the web'.
  173. [12:24:29] <drewinthehead> these point-to-point formats aren't 'on the web'
  174. [12:24:51] <mfbot> [[events/2006-09-30-london-microformats-vevent]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-30-london-microformats-vevent&diff=0&oldid=8489 * Brian * (+329) Added hCalendar in Comments
  175. [12:24:52] <keithalexander> there are too many good things that that gun could be levelled at
  176. [12:25:20] <drewinthehead> you, keithalexander, YOU have FAILED ON THE WEB!
  177. [12:25:21] <drewinthehead> :D
  178. [12:25:33] <keithalexander> :O
  179. [12:25:42] <keithalexander> :|
  180. [12:25:47] <Whiskey_M> lol - keep the smiles coming ;)
  181. [12:25:47] <keithalexander> :|
  182. [12:25:54] <keithalexander> :(
  183. [12:25:56] <drewinthehead> 8-)
  184. [12:26:08] <drewinthehead> 0:-)
  185. [12:26:58] <drewinthehead> there are plenty of people that phrase could be used for, outside of jest ;)
  186. [12:27:00] * keithalexander wishes his smiley vocabulary was greater
  187. [12:27:58] <Whiskey_M> the trouble with the defenition of "on the web" is that it seems to be restricted to the ( x )html that a user-agent renders and nothing more, which makes thinking of examples much harder
  188. [12:28:40] <drewinthehead> is RSS 'on the web' ?
  189. [12:28:41] <briansuda> failed implies a time-range... and in saying it failed, you can never have a renaissance of older ideas without contradicting yourself
  190. [12:29:02] <keithalexander> exactly
  191. [12:29:23] <drewinthehead> i'm not so sure, briansuda
  192. [12:29:35] <drewinthehead> a relationship can fail, but be rekindled at a later date
  193. [12:30:07] <keithalexander> a relationship has to succeed first though
  194. [12:30:19] <keithalexander> actually, can we drop the analogies, I get confused
  195. [12:30:23] <drewinthehead> ;)
  196. [12:30:25] <briansuda> so you can say "up to 2006, POX has failed on the web", but it might take off in 2010? (i doubt it)
  197. [12:30:26] <Whiskey_M> dunno drew - I've got one user-agent with a plugin that renders it, and another that doesn't
  198. [12:31:05] <drewinthehead> yeah, you can say "currently, POX has failed on the web"
  199. [12:31:09] <Whiskey_M> 2010 will probably see a lot more XAML around, but again is it web
  200. [12:31:22] * drewinthehead shudders
  201. [12:31:36] <keithalexander> i'd rather you said 'hasn't achieved mass adoption'
  202. [12:32:08] <keithalexander> it makes me afraid that SVG will start crying again
  203. [12:32:11] <Whiskey_M> think I have one - kinda --- what about XUL or am I thinking too close to user agent
  204. [12:32:33] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  205. [12:32:42] <keithalexander> no, I don't think so
  206. [12:32:45] <keithalexander> MAB
  207. [12:32:57] <drewinthehead> SVG is currently failing
  208. [12:33:05] <keithalexander> surely that's as 'on the web' as amazon's html pages
  209. [12:33:19] <keithalexander> drewinthehead: shhhh, she'll hear you....
  210. [12:34:40] * briansuda wonders about that Mf Logo we downloaded yesterday in SVG format
  211. [12:34:41] <keithalexander> I think what bothers me is that saying that something has failed is warning people not to use it or think about it, and it implies that there is something wrong with the technology
  212. [12:35:15] <keithalexander> when often it will be political, rather than technological factors that determine adoption
  213. [12:35:17] <drewinthehead> perhaps we should talk in terms of traction
  214. [12:35:19] <briansuda> right, keithalexander, we are quick to say "failed" but then not explain the context
  215. [12:35:38] <drewinthehead> SVG is currently failing to gain traction
  216. [12:36:03] <keithalexander> yes, that is all I'm asking really, for some context and qualification
  217. [12:36:15] <keithalexander> I'd say that's not true actually
  218. [12:36:23] <keithalexander> it's on the rise if anything
  219. [12:36:33] <drewinthehead> although once renderers are commonplace and popular graphics programs support generation, SVG could take off massively
  220. [12:36:37] <drewinthehead> ... etc
  221. [12:36:40] * briansuda wonders what george lakoff would do "WWGLD"
  222. [12:37:24] * danja (n=danja@213.55.131.23) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  223. [12:37:33] <keithalexander> i think they more or less are commonplace
  224. [12:37:50] <drewinthehead> so what about FOAF?
  225. [12:37:52] <keithalexander> the situation is certainly better than it was a year ago
  226. [12:38:23] <keithalexander> whether it has failed?
  227. [12:38:25] <briansuda> again, SVG has promise in the mobile arena, but the "mobile web" has never seen "traction" although all the numbers would suggest otherwise
  228. [12:38:53] * briansuda looked at the FoaF spec the other day, and was just more confused than when he started
  229. [12:39:24] <keithalexander> traction = constant use/adoption/popularity?
  230. [12:40:15] <briansuda> yeah everything is in context...
  231. [12:40:28] <briansuda> yahoo is looking for 3 million members, 37 signals needs 10,000
  232. [12:40:40] <briansuda> 10k for one company is sucess, 10k for another is failure
  233. [12:43:31] <drewinthehead> is FOAF a recursive acronym? FOAF: Obviously A Failure ('on the web') ;)
  234. [12:44:47] <drewinthehead> ok, i'll behave now. ahem.
  235. [12:45:25] <Whiskey_M> it's going to be interesting when more and more authoring tools start pushing out well formed xhtml
  236. [12:47:41] <keithalexander> do you think it will make a difference?
  237. [12:48:26] <keithalexander> I've seen hideous pages (from dreamweaver I think) that might have been perfectly well-formed, but were a complete mess anyway
  238. [12:48:53] <keithalexander> loads of nested divs absolutely positioned everywhere
  239. [12:55:05] <cbarrett> drewinthehead: FORD: Fast Only Rolling Downhill
  240. [12:55:17] <cbarrett> drewinthehead: FORD: Found On Road Dead.
  241. [12:55:20] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  242. [12:55:23] * cbarrett has a million of 'em
  243. [12:55:23] <cbarrett> ;)
  244. [12:56:01] <drewinthehead> cbarrett: LOTUS: Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious
  245. [12:56:28] <cbarrett> PEBKAC: Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair
  246. [12:56:33] <cbarrett> ^ a personal favorite of mine ;)
  247. [12:56:44] <drewinthehead> and mine ;)
  248. [13:04:33] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  249. [13:04:53] <keithalexander> "You know what FORD stands for don't'cha? Fix It Again Tony "
  250. [13:05:19] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  251. [13:05:19] * pnhChris scracthes head
  252. [13:05:44] <trovster> Isn't that FIAT?
  253. [13:05:56] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  254. [13:06:00] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  255. [13:06:21] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  256. [13:07:23] <pnhChris> that's why i was scratching my head trovster
  257. [13:07:24] <keithalexander> bad joke
  258. [13:07:40] <keithalexander> can't remember which movie I heard it in
  259. [13:08:40] * pecus (n=pecus@dial-b3-107-236.telepac.pt) has joined #microformats
  260. [13:08:43] <trovster> "King of the Hill" Pilot (1997) ?
  261. [13:08:53] <pnhChris> is there a good reference for feeds.technorati.com microformat bookmarklets?
  262. [13:09:34] <trovster> That was actually a Dale Gribble line from King of the Hill. Hank then says, "That's FIAT, you idiot!" heh
  263. [13:13:24] <keithalexander> :)
  264. [13:15:01] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  265. [13:16:00] * VoodooChild (n=kriss@195.182.4.103) has joined #microformats
  266. [13:16:52] <VoodooChild> Hi folks
  267. [13:20:55] <VoodooChild> I'm fairly new to microformats but could do with bouncing an idea off of anyone who might be awake :P
  268. [13:22:35] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) has joined #microformats
  269. [13:22:53] <Whiskey_M> I think everyone is in a semi-trance, but are likely to come back to you
  270. [13:23:08] * VoodooChild grins
  271. [13:23:18] <VoodooChild> Ok, thanks. I'll lurk and see if anyone surfaces!
  272. [13:24:35] <Whiskey_M> best to ask your question though to they can read and cogitate ;)
  273. [13:24:58] <VoodooChild> Ah, fair point
  274. [13:26:16] <VoodooChild> Just an idea for a possible format that occurred to me whilst driving home a couple of nights ago: I don't know of any existing formats for displaying song lyrics in such a way as to make them grab-able
  275. [13:26:36] * jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-ad661bf0a3d9ff5c) has joined #microformats
  276. [13:26:51] <trovster> hatom, content, title, author?
  277. [13:27:36] <keithalexander> dublin core?
  278. [13:27:37] <VoodooChild> Would that have the scope to take on an album name and release date as well as song title?
  279. [13:28:13] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  280. [13:29:24] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=8490 * KrissWatt * (+47) People on irc -
  281. [13:29:26] <pnhChris> i haven't looked at them, but there is some discussion of media listings
  282. [13:29:38] <pnhChris> i'm not sure what metadata is associated with them
  283. [13:29:48] <pnhChris> but it be worth going through the wiki
  284. [13:29:56] <pnhChris> to see whats already been covered
  285. [13:30:07] <sreynen> briansuda, i have some questions about your geo/kml work
  286. [13:30:15] <briansuda> go ahead
  287. [13:30:19] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit ("Death before decaf")
  288. [13:30:24] <VoodooChild> pnhChris: thanks, will do
  289. [13:30:41] <sreynen> what is the geoRSS used for? and does yahoo have an external data input option like KML?
  290. [13:31:02] <sreynen> or do any other mapping services?
  291. [13:31:06] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
  292. [13:31:25] <briansuda> yahoo API will allow you to load a GeoRSS file
  293. [13:31:32] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  294. [13:31:34] <briansuda> you can't use it as a webservice, but in your API
  295. [13:32:04] <briansuda> there are a few other desktop apps that import GMX (?) files
  296. [13:34:06] <sreynen> i'm only looking at web maps right now
  297. [13:34:47] <briansuda> then those are the only ones i know of
  298. [13:34:51] <sreynen> do google or yahoo do paging of large KML/GeoRSS files, or put it all on one map?
  299. [13:34:52] <briansuda> google earth
  300. [13:35:03] <briansuda> all one map
  301. [13:35:55] <briansuda> here is a yahoo example: http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/ytest.html
  302. [13:36:03] <briansuda> you can view source to see how it works
  303. [13:36:12] <keithalexander> why would hAtom be an appropriate format for marking up song lyrics?
  304. [13:36:39] <sreynen> thank, brian
  305. [13:37:19] <sreynen> i'm exploring ways to pull data from other search services, e.g. technorati kitchen or upcoming, into google or yahoo's mapping interfaces
  306. [13:37:43] <trovster> 'suddenly realized that XOXO was the perfect format for encoding lyrics (stanzas, lines, etc.). It is so obviously *right* that it is trivial to evangelize, rather than arguing over every last tag' keithalexander
  307. [13:37:44] <briansuda> let me dig-up a google example
  308. [13:39:42] <sreynen> your bookmarklet works fine for that
  309. [13:40:23] <briansuda> yeah, yahoo doesn't let you reference a GeoRSS file outside of the API
  310. [13:40:35] <briansuda> hear that Yahooligans?
  311. [13:40:47] <sreynen> that's too bad, but i can work around it
  312. [13:41:15] <briansuda> well you could have a proxy service that BUILDs the API calls dynamically
  313. [13:41:23] <VoodooChild> trovster: thanks for digging that up. XOXO is one of the microformats I must admit I'm finding a little tough to see the uses of. I'm fairly new to the movement and it doesn't seem as obvious as the likes of hCard, hCalendar, hReview, XFN, etc...
  314. [13:41:39] <trovster> Ditto ;)
  315. [13:41:41] <VoodooChild> I feel I'm missing the point of XOXO but can't figure out how
  316. [13:41:46] <briansuda> here is a google maps example with LOADS of points, there is no pagination (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=http://suda.co.uk/sandbox/kml/2006-09-01-around-REK.kml&ie=UTF8&z=13&ll=64.140132,-21.917103&spn=0.04133,0.127029&t=k&om=1)
  317. [13:42:02] <sreynen> brian, yeah, it's just less cool when there are fewer different servers involved
  318. [13:42:22] <sreynen> or visibly involved anyway
  319. [13:42:48] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  320. [13:43:08] <sreynen> wow, that's a lot of points
  321. [13:44:43] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) has joined #microformats
  322. [13:44:53] <briansuda> yeah, unfortunatly it doesn't show a timestamp
  323. [13:45:28] <keithalexander> for song lyrics, I think the structure is one thing, but for the meta data etc, I think dublin core style meta tags would do it
  324. [13:45:33] <briansuda> sreynen, if you are playing with the GEO XSLT let me know. There is no hard-fast rule for how to build KML files, so i an testing and pulling TITLE from different places from Microformats
  325. [13:45:45] <briansuda> e.g., if there is an hCard, use the FN
  326. [13:45:52] <briansuda> if the GEO is on an ABBR then use the node-value
  327. [13:45:59] <briansuda> etc.
  328. [13:46:12] <briansuda> all of this could be refined, so if you have issues/ideas let me know
  329. [13:46:17] <keithalexander> - though perhaps problematic if there's loads of other stuff on the page as well
  330. [13:46:31] <sreynen> i will, thanks. i'm just getting started
  331. [13:47:53] <briansuda> flickr now has geo microformat encodings, so there is data there
  332. [13:48:07] <briansuda> and i am emailing the guy who runs geourl.org as well
  333. [13:48:24] <briansuda> pingerati apparently also indexes GEO
  334. [13:52:35] <sreynen> my plan is to use geocoding services to add geo to any hcard with adr
  335. [13:52:49] <sreynen> then feed that into your service
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  350. [14:44:06] <VoodooChild> Quick question about hCard... do you need to define a phone number type (work|home) if it's a company which obviously won't *have* a home phone number?
  351. [14:46:08] <trovster> The default type is HOME isn't it?
  352. [14:47:14] <trovster> Sorry, VOICE is the default type
  353. [14:48:04] <VoodooChild> So that should be fine to be left as default?
  354. [14:48:45] <drewinthehead> yes, type is optional
  355. [14:49:12] <VoodooChild> Grand, thanks. Trying to update the hCard on my blog to include a bit more info.
  356. [14:49:19] <drewinthehead> <span class="tel">12345678910</span> is good
  357. [14:49:34] <trovster> But I was told a while ago, I needed a type, so meh
  358. [14:49:44] <drewinthehead> nope, trovster
  359. [14:49:53] <trovster> Nope?
  360. [14:49:55] <drewinthehead> default is voice
  361. [14:49:56] <trovster> I was. I know I was.
  362. [14:50:17] <drewinthehead> ok, i'll check, but i'm pretty certain
  363. [14:50:23] <trovster> No, there is a default.
  364. [14:50:29] <trovster> I looked, that's where I got VOICE fromt.
  365. [14:50:49] <trovster> But it doesn't detract from the fact I was told I must have a type, when I was first looking in to this.
  366. [14:51:49] <drewinthehead> you were told wrong then ... happens :)
  367. [14:52:28] <VoodooChild> drewinthehead: now that I have you here, I have another quick question ;)
  368. [14:52:47] <VoodooChild> I've been drawing inspiration/mark up from Fran's blog
  369. [14:53:12] * Frederic (n=neuro@pdpc/supporter/active/neuro) Quit ("http://t37.net | http://fredericdevillamil.com")
  370. [14:53:25] <trovster> Phae is teh famous now!
  371. [14:53:34] <pnhChris> indeed
  372. [14:53:47] <VoodooChild> And she uses hCards for hAtom entries on every post. Conceptually I totally get this, but would you say it was worthwhile keeping up when my homepage is filled with 6 or 7 hCards which just say 'kriss'? :P
  373. [14:54:00] <VoodooChild> And Phae isn't quite famous. I went to university with her.
  374. [14:54:01] <trovster> No need.
  375. [14:54:14] <trovster> You can include a hCard from the page.
  376. [14:54:23] <Whiskey_M> another newbury bod?
  377. [14:54:40] <VoodooChild> We both went to uni in Portsmouth
  378. [14:54:44] <Whiskey_M> k
  379. [14:55:01] <VoodooChild> You might've met Dave Singleton as well at various meets
  380. [14:55:20] <VoodooChild> He was at d.construct with Phae and is another uni friend of mine
  381. [14:58:02] <drewinthehead> yeah, i've met Dave
  382. [14:58:05] <drewinthehead> nice chap
  383. [14:58:19] <drewinthehead> you could use the include pattern, VoodooChild
  384. [14:58:29] <VoodooChild> Dave's ok in small doses
  385. [14:58:37] <VoodooChild> I lived with the guy for two years, so trust me on that one ;)
  386. [14:58:45] <drewinthehead> so instead of having 7 hcards all saying the same thing, you could include one central one
  387. [14:58:51] * trovster suggested that :(
  388. [14:58:53] <trovster> meh
  389. [14:58:54] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has left #microformats
  390. [14:59:15] <drewinthehead> so he did
  391. [14:59:24] * drewinthehead isn't a good reader
  392. [14:59:41] <VoodooChild> Can you point me at something which tells me how to include? At the moment I've just got my full hCard hidden at the bottom of the page.
  393. [15:00:02] <drewinthehead> i think the page is include-pattern on the wiki, let me look
  394. [15:00:20] <drewinthehead> http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern
  395. [15:00:26] * pecus (n=pecus@dial-b3-106-65.telepac.pt) has joined #microformats
  396. [15:00:47] <drewinthehead> the 'object include' is the best supported
  397. [15:00:50] <drewinthehead> http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern#object_include_example
  398. [15:01:11] <VoodooChild> Cheers bud :)
  399. [15:02:31] <drewinthehead> the downsides to includes are 1) you need to add some CSS to clean up the empty object tag in some browsers and 2) it's not supported in all the parsers yet - just the good ones
  400. [15:02:58] * drewinthehead points out that his parser supports *both* types of include, in a smug, self satisfied way ;)
  401. [15:03:10] * VoodooChild grins... yeah, yeah
  402. [15:04:19] <VoodooChild> I must admit that your parser is my latest bookmark after reading various bits this afternoon
  403. [15:05:13] <drewinthehead> hooray. i need to do more work on it - get other formats working
  404. [15:05:33] * Frederic (n=neuro@pdpc/supporter/active/neuro) has joined #microformats
  405. [15:10:02] <VoodooChild> I may have to disable images when viewing your site though. That header image is just all kinds of creepy :A
  406. [15:10:04] <VoodooChild> * :S
  407. [15:11:03] * ajturner (i=HighEart@130.223.235.45) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  408. [15:17:28] <drewinthehead> have you seen the one on the about page?
  409. [15:18:34] <VoodooChild> that's the one I mean :(
  410. [15:18:52] <VoodooChild> I have no qualms with an armadillo headpiece
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  421. [15:59:19] <drewinthehead> here he is :)
  422. [15:59:51] <drewinthehead> sorry 'bout earlier - i was doing 10 things and so only skim-read the backscroll.
  423. [16:00:27] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  424. [16:01:27] <VoodooChild> indeedy - thanks for your suggestion too. I did see it but was away on the wiki and you'd gone before I got a chance to reply :)
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  435. [16:33:42] <whiskey_m> 'lo
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  440. [16:43:36] <gsnedders> whiskey_m: hi
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  461. [17:49:43] <kingryan> howdy
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  463. [17:57:18] <tantek> welcome back kingryan
  464. [17:57:21] <kingryan> hi Phae, aka microformats model
  465. [17:57:24] <kingryan> hi tantek
  466. [17:57:28] <Phae> heh
  467. [17:57:31] <Phae> hi ryan
  468. [17:58:15] <kingryan> your mf tshirt is pretty popular with the photographers: http://flickr.com/search/?q=phae%20microformats&w=all
  469. [17:58:27] <Phae> I know :S
  470. [17:58:39] <Phae> But hey... if I'm gonna model for something, may aswell be for a good cause!
  471. [17:58:46] <kingryan> they're just jealous that they don't have shirts
  472. [17:58:49] <Phae> yes
  473. [17:58:51] <Phae> mostly
  474. [17:58:53] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  475. [17:59:09] <Phae> I really must follow through with my discussions on finding a UK/EU shipper
  476. [17:59:42] <kingryan> I need to bug chris to try someone other than goodstorm
  477. [17:59:53] <Phae> that'd work too
  478. [17:59:54] <kingryan> if we'd just use cafepress we'd be ok
  479. [17:59:59] <Phae> we were thinking of trying spreadshirt
  480. [18:00:06] <Phae> cafepress make terrible shirts!
  481. [18:00:26] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  482. [18:00:43] * pnhChris looks down and notices he's wearing his today
  483. [18:00:54] <Phae> Mine hasn't been through the wash yet since the conference.
  484. [18:01:04] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  485. [18:01:10] <Phae> I think I might skip wearing it for a while. I think it's a well established fact that I own one.
  486. [18:01:14] <pnhChris> mine didn't go through the conference :P
  487. [18:01:21] <Phae> :P
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  512. [19:16:33] <kingryan> hey briansuda: did you just search for yourself on http://kitchen.technorati.com ?
  513. [19:16:34] <kingryan> :D
  514. [19:16:55] <briansuda> i have an RSS feed
  515. [19:17:12] <briansuda> it is a dappel plugin
  516. [19:17:21] <briansuda> so yes, i did
  517. [19:17:59] <briansuda> any plans of creating an RSS feed for the kitchen, or coding it up in hAtom?
  518. [19:19:36] <kingryan> yeah
  519. [19:20:05] <kingryan> anyway, we just released a major update the backend, so please take a look at send any problems to tantek or myself
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  535. [20:14:52] <mfbot> [[Help:Contents]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Help:Contents&diff=0&oldid=8491 * Ccccccac * (+4523)
  536. [20:15:09] * Frederic (n=neuro@pdpc/supporter/active/neuro) Quit ("http://t37.net | http://fredericdevillamil.com")
  537. [20:15:33] * briansuda thinks that was spam
  538. [20:16:28] <mfbot> [[Help:Contents]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Help:Contents&diff=0&oldid=8492 * Brian * (-4523) Reverted edit of Ccccccac, changed back to last version by ChristopheDucamp
  539. [20:16:58] <briansuda> that one was sneaky! they had a DIV that was 0px tall, so you did actually SEE the links, but google would find them!
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  550. [20:48:41] <drewinthehead_> greetings
  551. [20:48:50] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
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  556. [20:50:26] <drewinthehead> that's better :)
  557. [20:50:27] <briansuda> are you with us now?
  558. [20:50:33] <drewinthehead> yes yes :)
  559. [20:52:21] <drewinthehead> i'm annoyed that apple are slowly turning my dock entirely blue piece by piece, but that's by-the-by
  560. [20:54:20] <gsnedders> drewinthehead: I was just saying in #macosx that it's sad they're moving back to what it was before (iTunes 2 was blue, if you didn't know)
  561. [20:56:16] <drewinthehead> yes, i recall, but nearly everything's blue now. Finder, iChat, iTunes, Mail, Camino, iTerm and Vienna are all stacked up in my dock and it's hard to tell them apart.
  562. [20:56:27] <drewinthehead> but this is OT ... #macosx would indeed be the better place :)
  563. [20:59:55] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  564. [21:00:32] <pnhChris> thank god for parallels and its yellow/orange :P
  565. [21:01:28] * jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-ad661bf0a3d9ff5c) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5.0.5/undefined]")
  566. [21:01:57] <ckorhonen> i dont like the blue itunes icon now
  567. [21:02:03] <ckorhonen> coverflow is sweet tho
  568. [21:02:55] * deanero (n=dean@66.239.39.109.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit ()
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  570. [21:03:39] * drewinthehead is worried what he's started
  571. [21:03:47] <drewinthehead> so microformats then! :)
  572. [21:04:21] <ckorhonen> :)
  573. [21:04:40] * briansuda has been playing with OpenSearch... possible candidate for a Microformat
  574. [21:05:00] <ckorhonen> my housemate has got his guitar out... hmm musical microformats
  575. [21:05:22] <drewinthehead> opensearch, briansuda?
  576. [21:05:39] <briansuda> yeah, it is a small XML file that describes you internal search
  577. [21:05:46] <drewinthehead> oo
  578. [21:05:57] <briansuda> then FF2 and IE7 use that info for when you do that search in the corner of the browser
  579. [21:06:13] <briansuda> so instead of searching google, you are searching the current site
  580. [21:06:20] <briansuda> there are only about 10 or so defined terms
  581. [21:06:42] <briansuda> so you could use those as class values for your form elements then generate the XML file dynamically
  582. [21:06:51] <briansuda> hAtom+hOpenSearch?
  583. [21:07:05] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  584. [21:07:08] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  585. [21:08:18] * dardarsauce (n=dardarsa@38.99.12.65) Quit ()
  586. [21:09:35] <drewinthehead> so how is that useful in a data publishing sense?
  587. [21:09:41] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.brhm.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  588. [21:10:16] <briansuda> if everyone uses standard class values for search forms, then we can do a single search across several domains at once
  589. [21:10:41] <briansuda> OpenSearch can return data as RSS/Atom, and then it can be merged and outputted
  590. [21:11:01] <drewinthehead> ah, ok, i'm with you
  591. [21:11:13] <briansuda> same as all other MFs, web designers only need to choose specific class values, and more data is available on the web!
  592. [21:11:26] <tantek> but brian, it's not something that has existing examples on the Web does it?
  593. [21:11:43] <briansuda> internal search already exists?
  594. [21:11:48] * tantek wrote the opensearch support for Technorati so he has some familiarity with the format, how it works etc.
  595. [21:12:01] <tantek> brian, how is that *content* *published* on the *Web*?
  596. [21:12:12] <tantek> that's one of the prerequisites for a microformat
  597. [21:12:20] <briansuda> i'm still not following you?
  598. [21:12:41] <tantek> with out existing examples of content on the Web, no microformat
  599. [21:13:00] <tantek> we're not just taking any format and translating it into class names
  600. [21:13:06] <tantek> that's not how the microformats process works
  601. [21:13:17] <briansuda> are you saying no OpenSearchDescription exists, or no internal searches exists?
  602. [21:13:21] <tantek> it starts with research and documentation of real world examples of content of that type being published on the Web with permalinks
  603. [21:13:30] <pnhChris> cetainly a fair amount of blogs with search boxes.. sometimes internal, sometimes external
  604. [21:13:40] <pnhChris> can't say where that leaves the metadata tho
  605. [21:13:42] <tantek> pnhChris is closer to getting it
  606. [21:13:44] <pnhChris> or the extraction
  607. [21:13:56] <tantek> basically, follow the process
  608. [21:14:15] <briansuda> i'm confused at what you are saying doesn't exist?
  609. [21:14:23] <tantek> if you can't find or understand what it would mean to have "content" of that "type" on the "Web", then you are probably trying to solve a problem that doesn't deserve a microformat
  610. [21:14:36] <pnhChris> briansuda: full opensearch metadata in HTML pages
  611. [21:14:56] <tantek> brian, if it doesn't make sense as "content" it doesn't deserve a microformat
  612. [21:15:08] <tantek> you have to figure out how it makes sense
  613. [21:16:31] <pnhChris> the question at that point is can you take the in page tecnorati search dialog and mark it up in a way that you can extract a complete search 'item' from it
  614. [21:16:44] <briansuda> firstly, i'm not interested in actually doing this.... but OpenSearch has the metadata of things like "amount of results", "pagination", "limit" all of which are displayed on search results pages already
  615. [21:16:49] <pnhChris> .. or blog search.. or whatever else
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  617. [21:17:53] * pnhChris is the first to admit to not knowing the whole scope of what opensearch provides
  618. [21:17:56] <tantek> right, you have to walk through the steps of listing URLs of examples, analyzing their implied schema etc.
  619. [21:17:57] <briansuda> OpenSearch results are just RSS or Atom with 2-3 additional namespaces elements, all of which are usually in the "content" on the "web" in normal search results
  620. [21:18:15] <tantek> brian, you are jumping ahead to the "what are existing formats" step in the process
  621. [21:18:18] <tantek> without first
  622. [21:18:20] <tantek> 1) defining the problem
  623. [21:18:26] <tantek> 2) doing the research of *content* examples
  624. [21:18:37] <tantek> stick to the process in order
  625. [21:18:57] <briansuda> fair enough, like i said, i'm not interested in actually doing this...
  626. [21:20:38] <KevinMarks> that reminds me, after talking to the videobloggers this week, I really want to finish alternates
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  632. [21:50:12] <sreynen> there was a discussion of opensearch on the discuss list a couple weeks back, which went through all of this already
  633. [21:53:52] <briansuda> hm, you are right - i completely missed that one!
  634. [21:56:31] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
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  636. [22:04:04] * briansuda_ (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) has joined #microformats
  637. [22:04:31] * briansuda_ has re-read that thread, and remembers it diverging into hAtom mimeType questions.
  638. [22:05:09] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
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  641. [22:09:53] <sreynen> i think everything in opensearch is already commonly published in search results except the URL format, and that wouldn't be necessary if there were a standard query parameter name
  642. [22:10:09] <sreynen> but are we considering form elements as content?
  643. [22:11:25] <briansuda> not sure, like i said, i've got plenty of other things to finish first, so this isn't a high priority for me.
  644. [22:11:34] <briansuda> but i would consider them part of the content
  645. [22:18:21] <keithalexander> as opposed to what?
  646. [22:19:05] <sreynen> not content?
  647. [22:20:52] * tcaspers (n=tomas@p508848C5.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit ()
  648. [22:20:52] <sreynen> most content is output. form elements are input. i don't know of any previous microformats dealing with input
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  651. [22:32:10] <keithalexander> why do you say 'most content is output'? what content isn't output?
  652. [22:34:25] <bewest> you don't know what is going to consume your "content"... your input elements may be consumed the same way as your output elements; I'd say the terminology is reversed here
  653. [22:34:41] <bewest> it's all output in the sense that your service output the entire document... including input elements
  654. [22:35:26] <bewest> and I think most people (or at least myself) would think of "content" as the subset of output (your response to an HTTP request) that is interesting
  655. [22:36:06] <bewest> I also think most people would refer to "input" as the stuff recieved by your service while a request is being made to it
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  658. [22:36:50] <bewest> ie INPUT = URI + post body + headers
  659. [22:39:25] <bewest> anyway, since you don't know what is consuming your resources, it's best to consider all of your output as content
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  664. [22:51:04] <sreynen> tantek wrote "doing the research of *content* examples" seeming to imply there was no content in opensearch, so i thought maybe we were using a more specific definition of "content" that didn't include form elements
  665. [22:52:59] * chimezie (n=chime@adsl-68-73-170-91.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net) has joined #microformats
  666. [22:55:58] <bewest> sreynen: I think my definition is still valid: content is the subset of output that is interesting
  667. [22:56:08] <bewest> key is in how you define interesting
  668. [22:56:35] <bewest> sreynen: ask tantek what he meant :-)
  669. [22:56:47] <bewest> sreynen: what page is that on?
  670. [22:57:22] <tantek> bewest, it has to have a URL as well
  671. [22:57:29] <sreynen> http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-09-12
  672. [22:57:35] <sreynen> every search engine has a URL
  673. [22:57:42] <bewest> tantek: yeah, I think that was implied in my original statement
  674. [22:57:45] <tantek> but a search engine is not content
  675. [22:58:22] <sreynen> bewest seems to disagree. i'll leave you two to debate
  676. [22:58:23] <bewest> I don't know how you generate output as a response to an HTTP request without a URI of some kind
  677. [22:58:33] <bewest> sreynen: no, I'm in complete agreement with tantek
  678. [22:59:05] <sreynen> because you don't find search results interesting?
  679. [22:59:20] <bewest> sreynen: because it doesn't fit the definition for interesting output
  680. [22:59:21] <sreynen> they certainly meet your criteria of a response to HTTP request
  681. [22:59:23] <bewest> no
  682. [22:59:27] <bewest> it fails that criteria
  683. [22:59:35] <bewest> what is the URI for a search result?
  684. [22:59:54] <sreynen> http://www.google.com/search?q=query
  685. [22:59:58] <bewest> no
  686. [23:00:01] <bewest> that is for search results
  687. [23:00:10] <bewest> and it is unknown what lies behind that URI
  688. [23:00:11] <sreynen> huh?
  689. [23:00:18] * izo_ (n=izo@173.203-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) Quit ()
  690. [23:00:46] <briansuda> q: what is the URI for a search result? a: http://www.google.com/search?q=query
  691. [23:01:02] <sreynen> well, whatever you want to call that, it's what opensearch describes
  692. [23:01:34] <bewest> meh, there's no permalink for the third result always being "example.com"
  693. [23:01:43] <bewest> so the URI is useless
  694. [23:01:48] <bewest> maybe that's more clear
  695. [23:02:02] <sreynen> so we're only microformatting permanent HTTP responses?
  696. [23:02:09] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  697. [23:02:12] * pecus (n=pecus@82.155.50.5) has joined #microformats
  698. [23:02:25] <bewest> secondly, a given serach result still isn't content... it's a pointer to content
  699. [23:02:57] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) has joined #microformats
  700. [23:02:57] <sreynen> define "content"
  701. [23:02:57] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  702. [23:03:18] <sreynen> before it was anything interesting in HTTP responses
  703. [23:03:30] <sreynen> i find search results to be interesting HTTP responses
  704. [23:04:59] * izo_ (n=izo@173.203-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #microformats
  705. [23:05:24] <sreynen> now i gather search results are not content, but search forms are, but i'm not at all clear on what basis that distinction is made
  706. [23:06:23] <bewest> there's a fundamental difference between a blog post and a search result that points to a blog post.
  707. [23:06:32] <bewest> do people generally publish search results?
  708. [23:06:38] <briansuda> any tagcloud page is basically a search result, and we mark those up with xFolk and rel-Tag
  709. [23:07:06] <sreynen> i'm not clear on what that fundamental difference is
  710. [23:07:07] <keithalexander> what are you doing with search rsults if not publishing them?
  711. [23:07:39] * izo_ (n=izo@173.203-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) Quit (Client Quit)
  712. [23:07:52] <sreynen> the difference is that machines are producing the content automatically?
  713. [23:08:59] <bewest> I suspect it's characterized by that, but am reluctant to say it's "the difference"
  714. [23:10:02] <sreynen> well, what is?
  715. [23:10:14] <keithalexander> is there the same fundamental difference between blog post and rss feed?
  716. [23:10:19] <briansuda> i would still argue that it is content, no matter who made it... there are plenty of 're-blogs' out there who don't generate their own content. There are sites that are just machine posts from a series of RSS feeds greping for keywords or tags
  717. [23:10:30] <bewest> keithalexander: no
  718. [23:11:41] <sreynen> if someone asks me where they can find websites about microformats, and i write HTML with a list of such sites, is that HTML content?
  719. [23:12:29] <pnhChris> i'm not sure i understand whats being argued about here
  720. [23:12:38] * briansuda has no idea anymore either
  721. [23:12:42] <keithalexander> is it the URI thing?
  722. [23:12:51] <bewest> keithalexander: no
  723. [23:14:03] <sreynen> someone brought up opensearch as a potential microformat. tantek suggested it's not appropriate because it's not content. i'm trying to understand what the meaning of "content" is that does not include what opensearch describes, i.e. search results
  724. [23:14:04] <briansuda> i think the original question was "how is [OpenSearch] *content* *published* on the *Web*?"
  725. [23:14:16] <pnhChris> i don't understand what bewest is trying to ask with "do people generally publish search results?"
  726. [23:14:34] <briansuda> and now it has spiralled into a debate on what is "content"
  727. [23:14:42] <keithalexander> deep
  728. [23:14:57] <keithalexander> :|
  729. [23:15:11] <pnhChris> well i guess i'd need a better understanding of opensearch then :P
  730. [23:15:35] <tantek> you could say that the search form itself is a kind of "content" on the web
  731. [23:15:51] <tantek> but then that begs the question, how many examples of that are there really?
  732. [23:15:53] <pnhChris> but yes.. to me lots of people publish search results in HTML and search forms in HTML
  733. [23:16:03] <pnhChris> and people even try and consume search results on the web
  734. [23:16:16] <tantek> part of the point of microformats is to focus on 80/20 of human behavior
  735. [23:16:18] <KevinMarks> there is some degree of search result convergence
  736. [23:16:19] <pnhChris> (e.g. monitoring results, watching for incoming bugzilla bugs, etc
  737. [23:16:22] <tantek> are lots of people publishing search forms?
  738. [23:16:25] <KevinMarks> in that everyone tries to look like google
  739. [23:16:26] <tantek> or is it a niche?
  740. [23:16:36] <pnhChris> but i'm not sure where the hatom vs. xoxo vs. new earch / opensearch format would playout
  741. [23:16:41] <tantek> a few hundred instances is still a niche
  742. [23:16:43] <briansuda> RSS 0.91 had search forms built into it
  743. [23:16:55] <pnhChris> whats a "search form"?
  744. [23:16:59] <tantek> brian, again with the pre-existing formats prematurely :p
  745. [23:17:06] <bewest> tantek: but if there were a million sites like google "publishing" search results
  746. [23:17:12] <briansuda> yeah, it never took off
  747. [23:17:12] <pnhChris> the thign i have sitting on the sidebar of my blog?
  748. [23:17:17] <bewest> tantek: that wouldn't necessarily make search results the kind of content we're talking about, right?
  749. [23:17:19] <bewest> or would it?
  750. [23:17:24] <bewest> is it purely defined by scale?
  751. [23:17:27] <pnhChris> that's at the top of every other site i visit? or somethign else?
  752. [23:17:31] <tantek> bewest, search results are distinctly different from search forms in terms of "content"
  753. [23:17:33] <sreynen> every wordpress blog has a search form. is that still a niche?
  754. [23:17:57] <tantek> sreynen, now you're talking my language :)
  755. [23:17:59] <pnhChris> i can /certainly/ see a case for an accessibility gain with a MF and tools there
  756. [23:18:18] <bewest> pnhChris: true
  757. [23:18:24] <sreynen> tantek, good, but i'm still confused
  758. [23:18:26] <bewest> hmmm
  759. [23:18:38] <tantek> sreynen, that's how you can document existing examples with enough *relevance* to warrant the effort etc. to do a microformat
  760. [23:18:55] <tantek> we should be challenging the relevance of any proposed "microformat"
  761. [23:19:02] <tantek> if it only helps a few hundred sites, forget it
  762. [23:19:11] <bewest> I think it's because the nature of search is different from the nature of consuming
  763. [23:19:13] <tantek> if it helps millions, well duh
  764. [23:19:33] <sreynen> oh, so you just didn't like that we were starting with the format, opensearch, rather than the general problem, publishing search interfaces?
  765. [23:19:48] <pnhChris> ok.. so i guess we're not in much of a different place then we were an hour or two ago :P
  766. [23:20:06] <pnhChris> i was wondering if i had missed a lot and were talking about something else with publishing search related stuff
  767. [23:20:14] <sreynen> i got the impression you didn't think there was a problem, or that the problem was somehow not part of the web or something
  768. [23:20:29] <bewest> btw, is anyone interested in the hAtom-creator I made?
  769. [23:20:40] <bewest> is it going to be put on the microformats website with the other creators?
  770. [23:20:50] <bewest> is it insufficient? need work before doing so?
  771. [23:21:29] <pnhChris> results like at the following URL are certainly published often, i want to consume them, and i do... http://technorati.com/search/placenamehere.com
  772. [23:21:43] <pnhChris> (but i do via atom not html)
  773. [23:22:00] <bewest> pnhChris: I'd argue that the resource you're consuming isn't the result... it's the thing the result is pointing to
  774. [23:22:02] <pnhChris> (or rss.. or something... and their API i think)
  775. [23:22:31] <bewest> besides, what is the URI to an arbitrary result?
  776. [23:22:38] <bewest> content must have URI's, as tantek said
  777. [23:22:42] <pnhChris> this is where you're losing me
  778. [23:23:00] <bewest> if I make a blog post, there is a URI uniquely assigned to the blog post
  779. [23:23:09] <bewest> people can dereference the URI and consume my post
  780. [23:23:20] <tantek> bewest, did you add your creator to the hAtom wiki page under "Implementations"?
  781. [23:23:24] <bewest> erm
  782. [23:23:29] <tantek> please do!
  783. [23:23:33] <sreynen> bewest, there are plenty of microformats for content that can't be addressed by URI
  784. [23:23:43] <bewest> tantek: is there a way for me to use hg to put it in the repo?
  785. [23:23:55] <tantek> sreynen, that's right, starting with an existing format is the wrong approach
  786. [23:24:05] <pnhChris> but how would some consumption of the top 10 latest results published at URL XYZ be any different then an hatom feed displaying the last 5 posts at URL ABC?
  787. [23:24:11] <tantek> bewest, first things first :0
  788. [23:24:14] <bewest> ok ok
  789. [23:24:19] <tantek> ping kingryan about hg
  790. [23:24:41] <tantek> pnhChris, asking "how would it be different" presumes it would be the same
  791. [23:24:48] <tantek> poor reasoning
  792. [23:24:52] <tantek> asking to refute a negative
  793. [23:24:57] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  794. [23:25:02] <tantek> why even start with the assumption that you're starting with?
  795. [23:25:06] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  796. [23:25:15] <sreynen> i'm publishing search results as hatom. they are the same.
  797. [23:25:22] <kingryan> bewest: read you email :D
  798. [23:25:25] <kingryan> your*
  799. [23:25:46] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  800. [23:25:54] <pnhChris> oops..
  801. [23:25:56] <pnhChris> sorry
  802. [23:26:05] <pnhChris> it sounded to me like bewest is saying they are different
  803. [23:26:10] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=8493 * BenWest * (+108) added my hAtom Creator to the Implementations list.
  804. [23:26:16] <pnhChris> i'm asking how
  805. [23:26:22] <pnhChris> because i don't see it
  806. [23:27:18] * bewest mumbles something about scientific method involving actively trying to falsify propositions
  807. [23:27:34] <pnhChris> http://chunkysoup.net/ is a URL for X latest blog posts... the techonrati link is a URL for the X latest items (search results, blog posts, i'm not defining what yet)..
  808. [23:27:47] <pnhChris> and I'd want to consume the items on both addresses
  809. [23:28:24] <pnhChris> i'm not sure where the idea of specific or constant URIs comes from here
  810. [23:28:34] <pnhChris> unless i'm misunderstanding the opposition
  811. [23:30:48] <pnhChris> to me the issue isn't whether there is a bunch of items on that page that are defined in a fairly standard and universal way... but which way to go when representing those items
  812. [23:31:02] <pnhChris> (the hatom / xoxo / new thing question)
  813. [23:32:33] <bewest> pnhChris: ok, I'm not sure that search results need a microformat, but assuming they did, I don't see why they couldn't be represented as one of plain old list (POL, anyone?), XOXO, hatom, or possibly even hReview?
  814. [23:33:12] <pnhChris> dunno... as i said.. can't say they couldn't at this point
  815. [23:33:34] <briansuda> bewest, have a look at OpenSearch, i think we are talking about two different things now
  816. [23:34:03] <bewest> could be
  817. [23:34:06] <briansuda> part of gathering data is getting all the meta stuff, like "results per page", "total results"
  818. [23:34:20] <briansuda> not the list of items - that is a solved problem,
  819. [23:35:29] <bewest> interesting
  820. [23:35:51] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.89.242.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  821. [23:39:19] * briansuda is going to get some sleep
  822. [23:39:43] <pnhChris> g'night
  823. [23:39:52] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) Quit ("night everyone")
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  825. [23:40:40] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  826. [23:49:26] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=8494 * Brian * (-6) Switched my Timezone
  827. [23:56:56] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit ()
  828. [23:58:30] * remi (n=remi@dsl-135-195.aei.ca) Quit (Connection timed out)
  829. [23:58:58] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("www.ie7.com It's Unreal TOURNAMENT 2007, learn 2 type ten more letters ffs!")

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