IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-09-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:33] * ckrad\ (n=ckrad@S0106000e0ca86d05.vc.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
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  3. [00:01:04] <KevinMarks> timezones aren't simple
  4. [00:01:09] <KevinMarks> GMT offsets are
  5. [00:01:24] <mikeal> calendaring isn't simple
  6. [00:01:35] <mikeal> that's just the reality
  7. [00:01:41] <KevinMarks> yep
  8. [00:01:59] <mikeal> and you have to at least _allow_ for someone to describe events completely
  9. [00:02:07] <mikeal> you shouldn't "require" it
  10. [00:02:38] * mikeal is sitting in the CalConnect roundtable :)
  11. [00:03:36] <mikeal> basically, I'm trying to write a universal event converter
  12. [00:04:14] <mikeal> that can take in and convert to rfc2445, hcalendar, calatom, and gdata
  13. [00:04:20] <KevinMarks> yikes
  14. [00:04:53] <mikeal> I can convert to hcalendar from rfc2445, I just convert to UTC and then output in GMT
  15. [00:04:53] <KevinMarks> well, hcalendar is not trying to be that universal, but it is trying to be self consistent and handle the 80% case
  16. [00:05:01] <mikeal> I just can't reliably convert from hcalendar
  17. [00:05:15] <mikeal> I'm also just generally in to microformats
  18. [00:05:29] <KevinMarks> because you have lost TZ info?
  19. [00:05:53] <mikeal> because I don't know what local the time is from
  20. [00:06:03] <KevinMarks> the problem with TZ's is that they are defined by legislative fiat
  21. [00:06:19] <KevinMarks> and so are necessarily unknown in future, as the law may change
  22. [00:06:47] <tantek> exactly, anything altered by legislation really shouldn't be in a *data format* standard - otherwise due to legislation you get data loss
  23. [00:07:11] <mikeal> so don't try to keep track of it
  24. [00:07:25] <mikeal> just allow someone to define a tzid, but no offset
  25. [00:07:27] <tantek> we leave it to the "application layer" to deal with resolving a fixed offset into a whatever countries exist at the times' names of timezones etc.
  26. [00:07:33] <mikeal> and assume tzid maps to olson db
  27. [00:07:35] <tantek> nope tzid is nonsolution
  28. [00:07:58] <tantek> olson db is another external dependency that results in data corruption over time
  29. [00:08:06] <tantek> fixed offset avoids all that
  30. [00:08:12] <KevinMarks> you could add an hCard to say where the event is and then use that combination fo space and time to decide what the TZ is
  31. [00:08:36] <tantek> right KevinMarks - embed an hCard in the hCalendar "location"
  32. [00:08:52] <tantek> which for iCalendar can be translated to the fancy new VVENUE object
  33. [00:09:41] <KevinMarks> what made me really understand that this was futile was kiribati changing the TZ of one of their islands so they'd have one either side of the dateline for the millennium celebrations
  34. [00:09:45] <mikeal> I'm not translating to VVENUE until they decide if VVENUE includes UID or not
  35. [00:10:14] <mikeal> I'm not saying timezones are crazy and cumbersome
  36. [00:10:22] <KevinMarks> I am
  37. [00:10:24] <mikeal> er aren't crazy and cumbersome
  38. [00:10:31] <mikeal> i agree with that
  39. [00:11:20] <KevinMarks> it's one of those convergent stupidity things, like text encodings
  40. [00:13:24] <mikeal> so your argument is simply that fixed offsets are easier and less error prone
  41. [00:13:58] <mikeal> I personally see it more error prone to rely on users to know what offset they are in next month if next month falls under a daylight change
  42. [00:14:50] <KevinMarks> well, that becomes a user-agent issue, not a data format one
  43. [00:15:04] <KevinMarks> it's down to the client app to know about their timezone quirks
  44. [00:15:31] <mikeal> the client app being the publisher or the subscriber of the data?
  45. [00:15:49] <mikeal> sure, the subscriber better know how to convert to a local timezone
  46. [00:16:12] <mikeal> but who is the publisher
  47. [00:16:46] <mikeal> if it's someone editing their page, or a simple script to covert to GMT from _current_ local time
  48. [00:16:48] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9068 * AndyMabbett * (+10) Trade names (plant) - clarify
  49. [00:16:51] <mikeal> that's going to be very error prone
  50. [00:23:07] <mikeal> i tried to subscribe the to the microformats-dev list but nothing has come back yet
  51. [00:23:49] <KevinMarks> that one is a lot quieter
  52. [00:24:00] <KevinMarks> microformats-discuss is the chatty one
  53. [00:24:09] <KevinMarks> i think dev needs approval too
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  69. [01:34:43] <tantek> mikeal - do you have a microformats implementation?
  70. [01:36:07] <tantek> see: http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-dev/
  71. [01:36:21] <mfbot> [[luna-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=luna-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9069 * AndrewTurner * (+362) Added thoughts behind a general "location" uf that can be used for various coordinate systems/spatial bodies.
  72. [01:36:27] <tantek> if you have a microformats implementation, please add it to microformats.org/wiki/implementations
  73. [01:36:30] <tantek> thanks!
  74. [01:38:39] * tantek (n=tantek@host43.n219-101-131-000.pri.iprevolution.ne.jp) Quit ()
  75. [01:39:57] <mfbot> [[mars]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mars&diff=0&oldid=9070 * AndrewTurner * (+227) Added MRO reference and ideas
  76. [01:43:04] <mfbot> [[User:AndrewTurner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndrewTurner&diff=0&oldid=9071 * AndrewTurner * (+490)
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  78. [02:00:34] <jibot> boblet is noone of consequence, but can be found at http://oli.boblet.net/
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  83. [02:46:42] <jibot> boblet is noone of consequence, but can be found at http://oli.boblet.net/
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  86. [03:20:58] <qid> HI ANDY
  87. [03:21:19] <qid> I assume you're spying on us some more
  88. [03:21:35] <qid> feel free to just join the channel
  89. [03:22:11] <qid> screen+irssi on a linux box is a great way to be always available even when you aren't around
  90. [03:23:21] <qid> on a side note, I do believe I've been on IRC too long to interact with people new to it without either confusing them or infuriating them
  91. [03:25:30] <qid> http://wadny.com/humor/?log=a_night_in_gloom <-- hanging around these sorts of people does that to you
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  105. [05:55:32] <jibot> boblet is noone of consequence, but can be found at http://oli.boblet.net/
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  117. [06:33:29] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  121. [06:46:39] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  122. [06:46:41] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  124. [06:53:48] <mfbot> [[mars]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mars&diff=0&oldid=9072 * AndyMabbett * (+18) move text which interrupted flow of follow-on para; tweak
  125. [06:55:20] <mfbot> [[luna-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=luna-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9073 * AndyMabbett * (+6) Drew McLellan - attribution
  126. [06:56:54] * bengee (n=bengee@muedsl-82-207-128-166.citykom.de) has joined #microformats
  127. [06:56:55] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  128. [07:29:31] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9074 * AndyMabbett * (+1217) Real-World Examples - historic
  129. [07:29:57] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9075 * AndyMabbett * (-2) Published prices of old books -
  130. [07:34:14] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9076 * AndyMabbett * (+1124) Historic prices - more
  131. [07:34:30] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9077 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Historic prices - fmt
  132. [07:35:06] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9078 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Historic prices - fmt
  133. [07:39:17] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9079 * AndyMabbett * (+190) Historic prices - another
  134. [07:45:33] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9080 * AndyMabbett * (+694) Historic prices - more
  135. [07:49:19] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9081 * AndyMabbett * (+134) Historic prices -
  136. [07:54:45] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9082 * AndyMabbett * (-2) Historic prices - fix
  137. [07:55:07] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9083 * AndyMabbett * (+2) stet
  138. [08:03:31] * trovster (n=trov@80.229.32.51) has joined #microformats
  139. [08:03:32] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  144. [08:45:04] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  147. [09:06:50] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  148. [09:07:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  150. [09:14:24] * drewinthehead hasn't quite woken up yet, and has just made a fine art out of agreeing with BenWard in a confrontational way (uf-discuss)
  151. [09:16:04] <blueNine> haha
  152. [09:16:18] <blueNine> I should probably sign up; I seem to be missing all the fun.
  153. [09:17:17] * blueNine subscribes
  154. [09:23:36] * tantek (n=tantek@host43.n219-101-131-000.pri.iprevolution.ne.jp) Quit ()
  155. [09:30:08] <drewinthehead> my best-guess script is the top hit in Google for 'mr henry ford' - as that's the example name i use
  156. [09:35:34] * mearso (n=mearso@kjmears.isd.glam.ac.uk) has joined #microformats
  157. [09:36:00] <mearso> Hi all
  158. [09:37:16] <KevinMarks> the linking idea is a good one though
  159. [09:37:37] <KevinMarks> getting some asks for that elsewhere too
  160. [09:39:26] <mearso> has anyone had experience of using the organization-unit class in a hCard?
  161. [09:48:05] <drewinthehead> the linking idea does have merit
  162. [09:48:28] <drewinthehead> what's puzzling you, mearso?
  163. [09:50:17] <mearso> well when I use organization-unit, it doesn't seem to be discovered by the tails extension
  164. [09:50:40] <mearso> or the new safari bookmarklet
  165. [10:00:29] * blueNine (n=tigger@host213-123-130-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit ("back in a bit")
  166. [10:03:05] <drewinthehead> it's a less commonly used property - so it may be that those implementations just don't support it
  167. [10:03:15] <drewinthehead> do you have the page online anywhere?
  168. [10:04:08] <trovster> Does the super-duper drew script do it?
  169. [10:04:26] <drewinthehead> it may well do
  170. [10:04:44] <drewinthehead> i should unless there happens to be a bug
  171. [10:06:50] <trovster> Oh, the suspense!
  172. [10:07:23] <drewinthehead> hehe :)
  173. [10:09:38] <mearso> I don't have it online at the mo - I will put it up soon
  174. [10:10:09] <mearso> any idea where I could post the code?
  175. [10:10:42] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org then view the page
  176. [10:13:30] <mearso> cheers
  177. [10:13:48] <mearso> http://paste.css-standards.org/2312
  178. [10:16:03] <trovster> Telephone and Mobile aren't valid types, it should be tel and cell
  179. [10:16:25] <mearso> cheers - see I'm learning already
  180. [10:16:38] <trovster> organization-unit should be inside of org?
  181. [10:16:52] <mearso> I'm an IRC virgin, and I appreciate your help
  182. [10:17:07] <mearso> I wasn't sure of that
  183. [10:17:26] <trovster> Also, you could expand on the adr, with sub-classes locality, postal-code and country-name eg http://microformats.org/wiki/adr#Sample_adr
  184. [10:17:54] <mearso> I was meaning to , but the organization thing was bugging me
  185. [10:19:01] <trovster> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.5.5_ORG_Type_Definition
  186. [10:19:18] <trovster> Yeh, organization-name/unit need be inside class="org"
  187. [10:20:58] <mearso> the fact that mobile isn't a valid type is interesting - as 'cell' isn't that common
  188. [10:21:37] * kensanata (i=alex@mirabel.epfarms.org) has joined #microformats
  189. [10:22:16] <trovster> *ahe*Americansm*ahem*]
  190. [10:26:58] * blueNine (n=tigger@host213-123-130-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #microformats
  191. [10:42:43] <drewinthehead> nasty cough you've got there, trovster
  192. [10:50:13] <mearso> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#Phone_Numbers
  193. [10:51:12] <mearso> this is the method I'm going for with the phone numbers
  194. [10:53:31] <mearso> http://paste.css-standards.org/2313
  195. [10:54:13] <mearso> Tried again with the phone numbers, and tails discovers this
  196. [10:55:06] <trovster> organization-unit still needs to be within org
  197. [10:55:43] <trovster> I don't think you need the extra class="tel" aroundeach property.
  198. [10:57:49] <mearso> hey trovster - I'm a uni-tasker k'now
  199. [10:58:01] <trovster> A wha?
  200. [10:58:06] <trovster> Oh, ok ;)
  201. [10:58:21] <drewinthehead> like a mutlitasker, but male.
  202. [10:58:45] <mearso> http://www.bearskinrug.co.uk/_articles/2005/11/09/cubbyhole/
  203. [11:01:47] <mearso> cheers - stray div
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  205. [12:00:19] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
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  207. [12:06:03] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  209. [12:06:28] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  212. [12:34:47] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  219. [12:57:57] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  220. [12:58:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  225. [13:21:11] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  226. [13:21:56] <drewinthehead> greetings
  227. [13:24:12] <Whiskey_M> 'lo drew, how goes?
  228. [13:24:58] * bluesmoon (i=bluesmoo@nat/yahoo/x-3d83b01f6e808464) has joined #microformats
  229. [13:24:59] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip from India & writes often on livejournal & sometimes about tech stuff on http://bluesmoon.blogspot.com & restaurants on http://bluesviews.blogspot.com & local food secrets on http://bluesfood.blogspot.com
  230. [13:26:41] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()
  231. [13:27:51] <drewinthehead> good, Whiskey_M
  232. [13:30:35] * drewinthehead didn't realise flickr photo pages now sport GEO
  233. [13:31:17] * trovster slaps drewinthehead around a bit with a large trout
  234. [13:32:23] <drewinthehead> obviously it has geolocation of images, but i hadn't spotted the use of the geo mf.
  235. [13:44:53] * Cloud_ (n=Cloud@deri-wg1.nuigalway.ie) has joined #microformats
  236. [13:44:53] <jibot> Cloud_ is Cloud
  237. [13:45:00] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  238. [13:45:01] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  239. [13:45:27] * Cloud_ is now known as Cloud
  240. [13:49:35] <mearso> drew - it seems that the 3.5 release of the tails extension should support all the hCard attributes
  241. [13:49:48] <drewinthehead> awesome
  242. [13:50:01] <drewinthehead> where did you read that?
  243. [13:50:23] <mearso> http://code.google.com/p/tails-firefox-extension/issues/detail?id=9&can=2&q=
  244. [13:51:07] <trovster> mearso: The problem is with your markup! organization-name, organization-unit need to be inside the class="org"
  245. [13:52:13] <mearso> I've changed the markup to what I understand
  246. [13:52:16] <mearso> http://paste.css-standards.org/2315
  247. [13:52:44] <mearso> is a span inside a span allowed?
  248. [13:53:04] <drewinthehead> sure
  249. [13:53:18] <mearso> just checking!
  250. [13:54:12] <drewinthehead> looks better, mearso - http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://paste.css-standards.org/2315/view
  251. [13:54:48] <mearso> cool
  252. [13:55:04] <mearso> thanks for that
  253. [13:55:16] <drewinthehead> for a 'business' card, fn and org should be the same
  254. [13:56:47] <drewinthehead> that said, i'm not sure how i'd approach this one
  255. [13:57:12] <mearso> I see the sense in that - but univerities seem to be schizophrenic - faculties and departments like to switch between pretending to be part of a wider org and denying it!
  256. [13:57:32] <drewinthehead> i guess for my money the oranization-unit is Press Office, Marketing and Student Recruitment
  257. [13:57:39] <mearso> I think fn and org combined is the sensible way though
  258. [13:57:56] <mearso> yeah makes sense
  259. [13:58:14] <drewinthehead> i guess you could use role
  260. [13:58:30] <drewinthehead> or title (never sure about those two)
  261. [13:59:12] <drewinthehead> anyone have any suggestions on when to use role vs. title?
  262. [14:04:26] <drewinthehead> how about something like this, mearso? http://paste.css-standards.org/2316
  263. [14:04:32] <drewinthehead> (just brainstorming)
  264. [14:04:38] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  265. [14:04:38] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  266. [14:05:08] <trovster> <drewinthehead> for a 'business' card, fn and org should be the same -- my business card has my name on it..
  267. [14:05:53] <drewinthehead> i mean an hCard representing some kind of business or organisation rather than an individual
  268. [14:06:28] <drewinthehead> a personal paper business card is an individual-style hCard, which would have distinct fn and org values
  269. [14:07:08] <trovster> :)
  270. [14:07:09] * drewinthehead has been having trouble with words all day
  271. [14:07:25] <trovster> The Multipack has discussed making such website, to create your own business cards with uF on ;)
  272. [14:07:51] <pnhChris> i never went through with mine :P
  273. [14:08:51] * kensanat1 (i=alex@mirabel.epfarms.org) has joined #microformats
  274. [14:09:07] <pnhChris> but i've got a design somewhere around here from earlier in the summer
  275. [14:09:27] <pnhChris> but was too gimmicky
  276. [14:09:32] * kensanata (i=alex@mirabel.epfarms.org) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
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  278. [14:09:45] <pnhChris> started out as plain on one size.. and a "view source" like view on the flip side :P
  279. [14:09:59] <trovster> Got an example?
  280. [14:10:04] <pnhChris> even after editing it back i didn't like it
  281. [14:10:09] <pnhChris> i dunno...
  282. [14:10:23] * drewinthehead is reminded of http://flickr.com/photos/kurioso/6755841/
  283. [14:10:28] * kensanat1 is now known as kensanata
  284. [14:10:34] <pnhChris> hehe
  285. [14:12:19] <pnhChris> hmm.. nope.. that's my free moo test cards ... http://dev.placenamehere.com/moo_test.jpg
  286. [14:12:19] <drewinthehead> if you zoom in close you can just about make out hCard and hCalendar at the top
  287. [14:12:22] * kensanat2 (i=alex@mirabel.epfarms.org) Quit (Client Quit)
  288. [14:14:00] <pnhChris> here's an edited copy ... i started with more text on the flip side
  289. [14:14:00] <pnhChris> http://placenamehere.com/temp/hcard-card.png
  290. [14:14:37] * jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-b146431c1b662644) has joined #microformats
  291. [14:15:22] <trovster> heh, kinda cool.
  292. [14:15:34] <trovster> I'd like to do a business card with uF on
  293. [14:15:41] <pnhChris> was a bit of a goof.. but i figured it i thought it worked i'd spend the time to refine them
  294. [14:15:52] <pnhChris> s/it/if/
  295. [14:16:38] * pnhChris should be getting those free moo cards soon though
  296. [14:16:44] <trovster> me too!
  297. [14:16:51] <trovster> Suprised they didn't stop me, coz frm the UK
  298. [14:17:51] <pnhChris> there were people from all over in one of the threads i saw on flickr
  299. [14:18:40] <pnhChris> i was surprised by the free shipping too
  300. [14:18:46] <trovster> Yeh :)
  301. [14:18:54] <trovster> Don't think it's worth buying them, though.
  302. [14:19:03] <trovster> Wierd form factor, too
  303. [14:19:18] <pnhChris> i'll see
  304. [14:36:49] <mearso> Cheers for the code drew
  305. [14:57:20] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9084 * Stuart * (+101) Examples -
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  308. [15:16:33] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  311. [15:21:24] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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  320. [16:29:17] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  331. [17:14:02] <yakk> hey, I've got a little question
  332. [17:14:22] <yakk> if I want to extract microformats from web pages in javascript, with js code running in the page what's the best way
  333. [17:14:46] <yakk> the specs don't specify xpaths or CSS selectors that I should use to match microformatted content
  334. [17:16:04] <KevinMarks> jquery is pretty handy
  335. [17:16:09] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  336. [17:16:09] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  337. [17:17:03] * yakk checks out jquery
  338. [17:19:11] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  339. [17:20:17] <pnhChris> how did i totally miss the fact that barcampnyc was this weekend?
  340. [17:21:54] * Ashley` (n=TXtoucia@ppp124-113.lns2.bne4.internode.on.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  342. [17:22:29] <yakk> does "first descendant element" mean depth-first or breadth first?
  343. [17:35:25] <bewest> <root><first-descendant /> <second-descendant /> </root>
  344. [17:38:53] <qid> yakk: it doesn't matter for the first
  345. [17:41:26] <tantek> yakk - document order
  346. [17:41:35] <tantek> there is no depth in a stream ;)
  347. [17:41:45] <tantek> nor breadth
  348. [17:42:05] <yakk> tantek, ahh - I keep thinking of html as a tree:)
  349. [17:42:18] <tantek> pnhChris - maybe because you are asking in the wrong channel (ahem #barcamp)
  350. [17:42:42] <tantek> yakk, it's a common misconception ;)
  351. [17:43:44] <pnhChris> only so many rooms i can be in at once (well.. not really i guess)... just flew under my radar while i was busy with other things
  352. [17:44:05] <yakk> tantek, its like light - its both particles and waves at the same time?
  353. [17:44:18] <yakk> s/its/it's/
  354. [17:45:01] <KevinMarks> well, yes, 20 is the limit
  355. [17:47:13] <qid> tantek: well, it can be represented as a tree
  356. [17:47:54] <tantek> sure, but that is artificial
  357. [17:48:29] <tantek> and it is the introduction of that representation which introduces the question you asked
  358. [17:48:36] <tantek> rather than the original content
  359. [17:48:42] <tantek> the representation is at fault for your question
  360. [17:49:38] <qid> well, the question yakk asked
  361. [17:50:08] <qid> and "descendant", to me, implies a tree structure
  362. [17:50:19] <yakk> tantek, well, it depends if you see html as a serialization of a tree or a series of tags - are different serializations of the tree the "same html"? (for example <p></p> vs <p/>)
  363. [17:51:01] <yakk> qid, right - containment is important in microformats
  364. [17:51:24] <tantek> qid gets the prize ;)
  365. [17:51:47] <tantek> in the context of markup, questions of order are resolved by default by referring to document order
  366. [17:51:56] <tantek> if it is unspecified
  367. [17:52:31] <tantek> yakk, it doesn't depend since HTML is a mime type that is defined to be a linear sequence of characters
  368. [17:52:47] <tantek> from a format perspective
  369. [17:56:00] <yakk> thats how the ietf defines it, but w3c defines it as "publishing language", whatever that means...
  370. [17:56:07] <yakk> anyhoo, its kind of irrelevant
  371. [17:57:23] <yakk> tantek, so I'm looking at writing some code for pulling values out of microformat property elements in some kind of generic way. are there some general rules that can be applied - I'm looking primarily at the section in hcard-parsing
  372. [17:58:00] <yakk> tantek, I'm defining some informal property types like email & url to handle the special cases
  373. [17:58:10] * Ashley` (n=TXtoucia@ppp102-70.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net) has joined #microformats
  374. [17:59:18] <tantek> yakk, that's what i've done in hcard parsing code myself
  375. [18:00:16] <yakk> tantek, are there rules that can be applied across all "standard" microformats?
  376. [18:00:27] <yakk> (ie: I'm lazy and want to write as little code as possible)
  377. [18:00:43] <tantek> yakk, much of hCard parsing applies across all compound microformats
  378. [18:01:45] <yakk> ok cool
  379. [18:02:07] <qid> I think the design patterns would count as generalities in microformats that you could parse
  380. [18:03:46] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  381. [18:06:49] <yakk> oh, in hcard-parsing it says:
  382. [18:06:51] <yakk> For properties that may take type URL, URI, or UID, when the element for that property is:
  383. [18:06:51] <yakk> * <a href> OR <area href="mailto:..."> : use the value of the 'href' attribute.
  384. [18:07:02] <yakk> why do I only want the area href if it's a mailto?
  385. [18:14:32] * nateritter (n=nateritt@rrcs-74-62-16-178.west.biz.rr.com) has joined #microformats
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  387. [18:19:46] <yakk> also, it says: <abbr>: use the value of the 'title' attribute if present, otherwise the contents of the element.
  388. [18:19:51] <yakk> does that mean that the rule:
  389. [18:20:16] <yakk> For all properties, if the element for a property has one or more children with a class name of "value", then concatenate the node values for all those child elements with class name of "value" in their document order, and use that concatenation as the value of the property.
  390. [18:20:26] <yakk> does not apply to abbr elements?
  391. [18:22:25] * remi (n=remi@dsl-154-59.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
  392. [18:22:36] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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  415. [20:03:20] <nateritter> any thoughts on this? I haven't gotten much response. http://blog.perfectspace.com/2006/09/14/brainstorm-wordpress-event-plugin/
  416. [20:08:03] * danja (n=danja@host111-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  417. [20:08:03] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  418. [20:10:04] <Whafro> nate: I'd put it out fully-formatted, but with enough hooks that people might be able to get creative with ways of presenting it in a more inline sort of way.
  419. [20:10:50] <Whafro> I think I'd use it (and have my clients use it) in more of a calendar-like way, though...
  420. [20:10:52] <nateritter> Whafro: maybe some sort of ajaxy way of showing what it's going to look like?
  421. [20:11:03] <nateritter> What do you mean calandar way?
  422. [20:12:08] <Whafro> just reading your comments on the site... I think I'd have more occasion to use such a plugin to add upcoming events to a site, rather than to cite events that I'm commenting on from the past, though I suppose both would be useful
  423. [20:12:28] <Whafro> like upcoming speaking events, things I'm going to, or whatever
  424. [20:13:00] <nateritter> sure, that's fine too... i plan on hooking it up to Eventful.com's API to search for upcoming events too.
  425. [20:13:10] <nateritter> that might be a second or 3rd revision, but...
  426. [20:14:29] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  427. [20:14:29] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  428. [20:14:34] <Whafro> so, is the flow something like 1) you add an event 2) you write a story 3) you select an added event while writing the story to which it refers?
  429. [20:15:52] <Whafro> so then, I could have a constantly-updated box on my home page that lists events that are in the future (and perhaps a story telling what I'm doing there or something), and then I can later write stories about them once they've passed, and use the same event entry as a reference joining the two
  430. [20:16:32] <nateritter> well, that's the trouble. I see it more as an inline thing. I want to write about an event, mention it (like you do a link) and fill in the important pieces, and it inserts it formatted into your post inline.
  431. [20:17:09] <nateritter> if there's an Eventful event to go with it, optionally link to it's detail page on Eventful.
  432. [20:17:13] <nateritter> or Upcoming, or whatever.
  433. [20:17:36] <nateritter> But, i'm only looking at it one way (my way).
  434. [20:17:38] <Whafro> okay, so is the true end purpose of it to facilitate the markup for an hEvent when writing an inline event description?
  435. [20:17:47] <nateritter> I'm interested in how others would use it.
  436. [20:17:55] <nateritter> yea
  437. [20:18:03] <nateritter> and hCal and hVenue possibly
  438. [20:18:32] * Sclizer-Rath (i=Sclizer-@88.233.252.87) has joined #microformats
  439. [20:18:52] <Whafro> okay, so if that's the end goal, then I think a toolbar-like interface would be more useful... highlight the information (say, the location) and then click on the location button on the toolbar, and the markup is affixed appropriately... then you do that for each section...
  440. [20:19:07] <Whafro> and for sections (like date) that need more info, you bring up a dialog to ask for it
  441. [20:19:50] <Whafro> so that way, you could just write a paragraph, and then go back and quickly mark it up by just clicking around... it doesn't have to break your stream of consciousness, and it doesn't have to break your writing style
  442. [20:19:55] <nateritter> ok, so one thing i want to consider is what would make this useful to the general public who don't care about microformats....
  443. [20:20:03] <nateritter> interesting
  444. [20:20:37] <nateritter> good stuff... hmm...
  445. [20:20:43] <Whafro> well, then add another button for "event link" and then link to upcoming/eventful/whatever
  446. [20:20:53] <Whafro> highlight "Phillies game" and then click link
  447. [20:21:17] <Whafro> (sorry, my schedule for the night is seeping into my examples)
  448. [20:21:43] <nateritter> yea, that's where that "Insert/edit event" dialogue would show up, and it would have the Event title already filled in with whatever you highlighted.
  449. [20:23:50] <Whafro> well, I think your goal right now should definitely deal with inline-style prose, so forget my initial comment, since that's kinda outside your scope... and since it's prose you're dealing with, you want to have as little output as possible... because if using your plugin meant that I'd have to begin every post with "I went to Phillies Game last night at RFK Stadium", then I'd probably do it by hand...
  450. [20:24:08] <nateritter> hah.. right, exactly
  451. [20:24:14] <Whafro> however, if you're just adding markup around what someone's already typed, and giving them an easy way to do that, then that's probably quite useful
  452. [20:24:24] * Sclizer-Rath (i=Sclizer-@88.233.252.87) Quit ()
  453. [20:24:34] <nateritter> ok, cool.
  454. [20:24:39] <Whafro> hope that helps
  455. [20:24:46] <nateritter> do you think you would use something like this? honestly?
  456. [20:25:46] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  457. [20:26:56] <Whafro> hmmm
  458. [20:27:02] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  459. [20:28:17] <Whafro> I'd use it in combination with something more like I initially described
  460. [20:28:26] <Whafro> my ideal tool would be something like this:
  461. [20:28:43] <Whafro> 1. add an event into the database, detailing as much or as little as possible
  462. [20:29:25] * danja (n=danja@host111-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  463. [20:29:37] <Whafro> 2. author a story about the upcoming event -- "I'm speaking here in two weeks, it'll be interesting, come see it" and associate the event entry in the DB with it, and then use a tool like yours to mark it up appropriately... but there'd be a callout box on the story that has the fully-formatted event details...
  464. [20:30:03] <Whafro> 3. the event passes, it is removed from the upcoming events list on my homepage, which draws from the events table in the db
  465. [20:30:29] <Whafro> 4. I write a review/synopsis of the event, associate the story with the event (which creates the callout box), and then use a tool like yours to mark up the prose
  466. [20:31:02] <nateritter> interesting...
  467. [20:31:10] <Whafro> I'd use the tool like yours to either put markup around given text, or, if I haven't selected text, it'd insert the name of the selected event for me
  468. [20:31:12] <nateritter> sounds like you're looking for a plugin on steriods.. hehe
  469. [20:31:18] <nateritter> steroids rather
  470. [20:31:25] <Whafro> haha, yeah, probably :)
  471. [20:31:58] <Whafro> I don't actually use blog tools all too much and tend to roll my own CMSs (though my job has us using a common proprietary platform)
  472. [20:32:24] <nateritter> that's cool. good to know where to possibly take it. Maybe some kind of branch off this plugin could do that, but I'm not sure I want to go quite that far with it yet.
  473. [20:32:40] <nateritter> I'm not thinking that far into the future.
  474. [20:33:16] <nateritter> My main objective is to get the masses to microformat the events they talk about. So, it has to be very unobtrusive.
  475. [20:33:59] <Whafro> right
  476. [20:34:14] <nateritter> cool, thanks for the perspective and help. i appreciate it.
  477. [20:34:19] <Whafro> so I think an addition to the HTML toolbar would probably be the interface I'd choose...
  478. [20:34:20] <Whafro> np
  479. [20:34:24] <nateritter> if you have any more ideas feel free to leave a comment on my blog about it.
  480. [20:34:29] <Whafro> will do
  481. [20:38:48] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9085 * AndyMabbett * (+2) so.
  482. [20:39:29] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9086 * AndyMabbett * (+3) sp.
  483. [20:44:55] * danja (n=danja@host111-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  484. [20:44:55] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  487. [20:47:46] <jibot> vmarks is in NC
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  490. [20:55:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
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  497. [21:15:21] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9087 * AndyMabbett * (+1613) Malcolm Storey
  498. [21:17:24] * remi (n=remi@dsl-154-59.aei.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  502. [22:00:19] <mfbot> [[introduction]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=introduction&diff=0&oldid=9088 * AndyMabbett * (-107) What are Microformats? - still simplifying
  503. [22:02:24] * jozecuervo (n=jose-lap@adsl-75-7-24-80.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
  504. [22:03:11] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  505. [22:04:08] * yakk curses
  506. [22:04:18] <yakk> generic Microformat parsing is Too Hard
  507. [22:04:20] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9089 * AndyMabbett * (+78) Andy Mabbett - re-write
  508. [22:04:27] <yakk> (for mere mortals like me anyway)
  509. [22:06:50] <KevinMarks> what are you doing it with?
  510. [22:06:55] <KevinMarks> Not your namesake I trust
  511. [22:07:01] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9090 * AndyMabbett * (+79) Andy Mabbett - fmt
  512. [22:07:32] <mikeal> are any iCalendar properties explicitly not allowed in hcalendar exect timezone and daylight related
  513. [22:08:11] <tantek> yakk take a look at existing code
  514. [22:08:17] <tantek> the Ruby microformat parsing library
  515. [22:08:25] <tantek> and the other one the "AUMFP"
  516. [22:08:31] <mikeal> i noticed there are no examples that include PRODID or VERSION
  517. [22:08:33] <tantek> "almost universal microformat parser"
  518. [22:08:35] <yakk> tantek, ok - will do
  519. [22:08:48] <tantek> mikeal - see details on those properties in the spec
  520. [22:09:13] <tantek> those details have very little to do with the data format and instead are application specific data
  521. [22:09:30] <tantek> e.g. X2V adds them based on *its* version
  522. [22:10:02] <tantek> hCalendar spec that is
  523. [22:10:24] <tantek> things like "prodid" are actually very bad for interop because they provide a big gaping wide whole for proprietary interpretations
  524. [22:11:07] <mikeal> i see it now
  525. [22:11:19] <mikeal> if I may suggest
  526. [22:11:45] <mikeal> adding a section under "More Semantic Equivalents" containing "Removed properties" would be helpful
  527. [22:19:11] * jose-laptop (n=burntwir@adsl-71-129-28-166.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  528. [22:22:42] <yakk> tantek, the AUMFP and hatom2atom.xsl both fail to get hatom titles correctly :(
  529. [22:22:55] <tantek> really?
  530. [22:23:00] <tantek> that's worthy of pointing out on the list
  531. [22:23:15] <yakk> ok - I'll pipe up and complain :)
  532. [22:23:16] <tantek> with a URL to the test case please!
  533. [22:23:24] <tantek> their developers are quite responsive
  534. [22:24:41] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  535. [22:28:15] * davecardwell (n=dave@moose.davecardwell.co.uk) Quit ("leaving")
  536. [22:29:44] * davecardwell (n=dave@sinner.grepular.com) has joined #microformats
  537. [22:32:06] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  538. [22:32:07] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  539. [22:36:31] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  540. [22:45:15] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable128.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  541. [22:45:15] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  542. [22:58:15] * scottjungling (n=scottjun@sjc.CSUChico.EDU) Quit (Client Quit)
  543. [22:59:46] <hober> hcalendar in window live writer: http://gallery.live.com/default.aspx?l=8
  544. [23:00:15] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
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  546. [23:11:23] <tantek> hey hober did the timezone offset ever get fixed in eventful? last time I checked *everything* was set to Z even if it was in +0700 (PDT) etc.
  547. [23:18:45] * jozecuervo (n=jose-lap@adsl-75-7-24-80.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  548. [23:21:21] <yakk> tantek, hey, rel-tag is for both A & AREA but not LINK, right? AREA isn't explicitly mentioned but it feels like its the other place where it would make sense to have a rel=tag
  549. [23:22:39] <evanpro> yakk: that's an interesting question
  550. [23:22:58] <evanpro> I think the typical answer is no, since the text isn't visible
  551. [23:23:02] <evanpro> That'd be my guess
  552. [23:23:05] <yakk> hmm
  553. [23:23:12] <yakk> ok
  554. [23:23:16] <evanpro> Well
  555. [23:23:19] <evanpro> Don't go by my word
  556. [23:23:23] <yakk> ok :)
  557. [23:23:31] <evanpro> csarven: hey, Sarven!
  558. [23:23:32] <yakk> I can drop it from my code pretty easilly
  559. [23:24:02] <yakk> but it would make sense in some cases.... a server-generated tag imagemap perhaps? yuck,,,
  560. [23:24:12] <tantek> well i think it should work in general unless there is a reason not to
  561. [23:24:18] <tantek> you could have a graphical image tag
  562. [23:24:23] <tantek> rather than a text tag
  563. [23:24:26] <tantek> and still be visible
  564. [23:24:34] <tantek> and the AREA would simply be overlaid on top of the image map
  565. [23:24:37] <tantek> so it *could* make sense
  566. [23:24:41] <tantek> never seen anyone do it though
  567. [23:25:05] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  568. [23:25:06] <tantek> Andy mentioned this in the list but I felt it worth repeating: http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,1882029,00.html
  569. [23:25:18] <tantek> pretty funny that microformats have been grouped with "the cool kids"
  570. [23:27:18] * KevinMarks feels young again
  571. [23:28:22] <yakk> tantek, as I was writing my code I realised that taking the alt value of the area is probably the right thing in this case too
  572. [23:29:35] <hober> tantek: I'll check
  573. [23:30:35] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
  574. [23:31:25] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9091 * AndyMabbett * (+184) Notable websites - Sort; add flickr
  575. [23:35:01] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9092 * AndyMabbett * (+75) Quantitative evidence - Wiki comments from site owner
  576. [23:46:07] * tantek (n=tantek@host43.n219-101-131-000.pri.iprevolution.ne.jp) Quit ()
  577. [23:49:39] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  578. [23:49:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  579. [23:49:40] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  580. [23:56:03] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  581. [23:58:17] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  582. [23:59:46] <yakk> hey ryan
  583. [23:59:52] <kingryan> hi yakk

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