IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-09-28
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:01:04] <KevinMarks>
timezones aren't simple
- [00:01:09] <KevinMarks>
GMT offsets are
- [00:01:24] <mikeal>
calendaring isn't simple
- [00:01:35] <mikeal>
that's just the reality
- [00:01:41] <KevinMarks>
yep
- [00:01:59] <mikeal>
and you have to at least _allow_ for someone to describe events completely
- [00:02:07] <mikeal>
you shouldn't "require" it
- [00:02:38] * mikeal is sitting in the CalConnect roundtable :)
- [00:03:36] <mikeal>
basically, I'm trying to write a universal event converter
- [00:04:14] <mikeal>
that can take in and convert to rfc2445, hcalendar, calatom, and gdata
- [00:04:20] <KevinMarks>
yikes
- [00:04:53] <mikeal>
I can convert to hcalendar from rfc2445, I just convert to UTC and then output in GMT
- [00:04:53] <KevinMarks>
well, hcalendar is not trying to be that universal, but it is trying to be self consistent and handle the 80% case
- [00:05:01] <mikeal>
I just can't reliably convert from hcalendar
- [00:05:15] <mikeal>
I'm also just generally in to microformats
- [00:05:29] <KevinMarks>
because you have lost TZ info?
- [00:05:53] <mikeal>
because I don't know what local the time is from
- [00:06:03] <KevinMarks>
the problem with TZ's is that they are defined by legislative fiat
- [00:06:19] <KevinMarks>
and so are necessarily unknown in future, as the law may change
- [00:06:47] <tantek>
exactly, anything altered by legislation really shouldn't be in a *data format* standard - otherwise due to legislation you get data loss
- [00:07:11] <mikeal>
so don't try to keep track of it
- [00:07:25] <mikeal>
just allow someone to define a tzid, but no offset
- [00:07:27] <tantek>
we leave it to the "application layer" to deal with resolving a fixed offset into a whatever countries exist at the times' names of timezones etc.
- [00:07:33] <mikeal>
and assume tzid maps to olson db
- [00:07:35] <tantek>
nope tzid is nonsolution
- [00:07:58] <tantek>
olson db is another external dependency that results in data corruption over time
- [00:08:06] <tantek>
fixed offset avoids all that
- [00:08:12] <KevinMarks>
you could add an hCard to say where the event is and then use that combination fo space and time to decide what the TZ is
- [00:08:36] <tantek>
right KevinMarks - embed an hCard in the hCalendar "location"
- [00:08:52] <tantek>
which for iCalendar can be translated to the fancy new VVENUE object
- [00:09:41] <KevinMarks>
what made me really understand that this was futile was kiribati changing the TZ of one of their islands so they'd have one either side of the dateline for the millennium celebrations
- [00:09:45] <mikeal>
I'm not translating to VVENUE until they decide if VVENUE includes UID or not
- [00:10:14] <mikeal>
I'm not saying timezones are crazy and cumbersome
- [00:10:22] <KevinMarks>
I am
- [00:10:24] <mikeal>
er aren't crazy and cumbersome
- [00:10:31] <mikeal>
i agree with that
- [00:11:20] <KevinMarks>
it's one of those convergent stupidity things, like text encodings
- [00:13:24] <mikeal>
so your argument is simply that fixed offsets are easier and less error prone
- [00:13:58] <mikeal>
I personally see it more error prone to rely on users to know what offset they are in next month if next month falls under a daylight change
- [00:14:50] <KevinMarks>
well, that becomes a user-agent issue, not a data format one
- [00:15:04] <KevinMarks>
it's down to the client app to know about their timezone quirks
- [00:15:31] <mikeal>
the client app being the publisher or the subscriber of the data?
- [00:15:49] <mikeal>
sure, the subscriber better know how to convert to a local timezone
- [00:16:12] <mikeal>
but who is the publisher
- [00:16:46] <mikeal>
if it's someone editing their page, or a simple script to covert to GMT from _current_ local time
- [00:16:48] <mfbot>
[[species-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9068 * AndyMabbett * (+10) Trade names (plant) - clarify
- [00:16:51] <mikeal>
that's going to be very error prone
- [00:23:07] <mikeal>
i tried to subscribe the to the microformats-dev list but nothing has come back yet
- [00:23:49] <KevinMarks>
that one is a lot quieter
- [00:24:00] <KevinMarks>
microformats-discuss is the chatty one
- [00:24:09] <KevinMarks>
i think dev needs approval too
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- [01:34:43] <tantek>
mikeal - do you have a microformats implementation?
- [01:36:07] <tantek>
see: http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-dev/
- [01:36:21] <mfbot>
[[luna-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=luna-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9069 * AndrewTurner * (+362) Added thoughts behind a general "location" uf that can be used for various coordinate systems/spatial bodies.
- [01:36:27] <tantek>
if you have a microformats implementation, please add it to microformats.org/wiki/implementations
- [01:36:30] <tantek>
thanks!
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- [01:39:57] <mfbot>
[[mars]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mars&diff=0&oldid=9070 * AndrewTurner * (+227) Added MRO reference and ideas
- [01:43:04] <mfbot>
[[User:AndrewTurner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndrewTurner&diff=0&oldid=9071 * AndrewTurner * (+490)
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- [02:00:34] <jibot>
boblet is noone of consequence, but can be found at http://oli.boblet.net/
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boblet is noone of consequence, but can be found at http://oli.boblet.net/
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- [03:20:58] <qid>
HI ANDY
- [03:21:19] <qid>
I assume you're spying on us some more
- [03:21:35] <qid>
feel free to just join the channel
- [03:22:11] <qid>
screen+irssi on a linux box is a great way to be always available even when you aren't around
- [03:23:21] <qid>
on a side note, I do believe I've been on IRC too long to interact with people new to it without either confusing them or infuriating them
- [03:25:30] <qid>
http://wadny.com/humor/?log=a_night_in_gloom <-- hanging around these sorts of people does that to you
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boblet is noone of consequence, but can be found at http://oli.boblet.net/
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- [06:33:29] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [06:46:39] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [06:53:48] <mfbot>
[[mars]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mars&diff=0&oldid=9072 * AndyMabbett * (+18) move text which interrupted flow of follow-on para; tweak
- [06:55:20] <mfbot>
[[luna-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=luna-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9073 * AndyMabbett * (+6) Drew McLellan - attribution
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- [06:56:55] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
- [07:29:31] <mfbot>
[[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9074 * AndyMabbett * (+1217) Real-World Examples - historic
- [07:29:57] <mfbot>
[[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9075 * AndyMabbett * (-2) Published prices of old books -
- [07:34:14] <mfbot>
[[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9076 * AndyMabbett * (+1124) Historic prices - more
- [07:34:30] <mfbot>
[[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9077 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Historic prices - fmt
- [07:35:06] <mfbot>
[[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9078 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Historic prices - fmt
- [07:39:17] <mfbot>
[[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9079 * AndyMabbett * (+190) Historic prices - another
- [07:45:33] <mfbot>
[[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9080 * AndyMabbett * (+694) Historic prices - more
- [07:49:19] <mfbot>
[[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9081 * AndyMabbett * (+134) Historic prices -
- [07:54:45] <mfbot>
[[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9082 * AndyMabbett * (-2) Historic prices - fix
- [07:55:07] <mfbot>
[[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9083 * AndyMabbett * (+2) stet
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- [08:03:32] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [08:45:04] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [09:06:50] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [09:14:24] * drewinthehead hasn't quite woken up yet, and has just made a fine art out of agreeing with BenWard in a confrontational way (uf-discuss)
- [09:16:04] <blueNine>
haha
- [09:16:18] <blueNine>
I should probably sign up; I seem to be missing all the fun.
- [09:17:17] * blueNine subscribes
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- [09:30:08] <drewinthehead>
my best-guess script is the top hit in Google for 'mr henry ford' - as that's the example name i use
- [09:35:34] * mearso (n=mearso@kjmears.isd.glam.ac.uk) has joined #microformats
- [09:36:00] <mearso>
Hi all
- [09:37:16] <KevinMarks>
the linking idea is a good one though
- [09:37:37] <KevinMarks>
getting some asks for that elsewhere too
- [09:39:26] <mearso>
has anyone had experience of using the organization-unit class in a hCard?
- [09:48:05] <drewinthehead>
the linking idea does have merit
- [09:48:28] <drewinthehead>
what's puzzling you, mearso?
- [09:50:17] <mearso>
well when I use organization-unit, it doesn't seem to be discovered by the tails extension
- [09:50:40] <mearso>
or the new safari bookmarklet
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- [10:03:05] <drewinthehead>
it's a less commonly used property - so it may be that those implementations just don't support it
- [10:03:15] <drewinthehead>
do you have the page online anywhere?
- [10:04:08] <trovster>
Does the super-duper drew script do it?
- [10:04:26] <drewinthehead>
it may well do
- [10:04:44] <drewinthehead>
i should unless there happens to be a bug
- [10:06:50] <trovster>
Oh, the suspense!
- [10:07:23] <drewinthehead>
hehe :)
- [10:09:38] <mearso>
I don't have it online at the mo - I will put it up soon
- [10:10:09] <mearso>
any idea where I could post the code?
- [10:10:42] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org then view the page
- [10:13:30] <mearso>
cheers
- [10:13:48] <mearso>
http://paste.css-standards.org/2312
- [10:16:03] <trovster>
Telephone and Mobile aren't valid types, it should be tel and cell
- [10:16:25] <mearso>
cheers - see I'm learning already
- [10:16:38] <trovster>
organization-unit should be inside of org?
- [10:16:52] <mearso>
I'm an IRC virgin, and I appreciate your help
- [10:17:07] <mearso>
I wasn't sure of that
- [10:17:26] <trovster>
Also, you could expand on the adr, with sub-classes locality, postal-code and country-name eg http://microformats.org/wiki/adr#Sample_adr
- [10:17:54] <mearso>
I was meaning to , but the organization thing was bugging me
- [10:19:01] <trovster>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.5.5_ORG_Type_Definition
- [10:19:18] <trovster>
Yeh, organization-name/unit need be inside class="org"
- [10:20:58] <mearso>
the fact that mobile isn't a valid type is interesting - as 'cell' isn't that common
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- [10:22:16] <trovster>
*ahe*Americansm*ahem*]
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- [10:42:43] <drewinthehead>
nasty cough you've got there, trovster
- [10:50:13] <mearso>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#Phone_Numbers
- [10:51:12] <mearso>
this is the method I'm going for with the phone numbers
- [10:53:31] <mearso>
http://paste.css-standards.org/2313
- [10:54:13] <mearso>
Tried again with the phone numbers, and tails discovers this
- [10:55:06] <trovster>
organization-unit still needs to be within org
- [10:55:43] <trovster>
I don't think you need the extra class="tel" aroundeach property.
- [10:57:49] <mearso>
hey trovster - I'm a uni-tasker k'now
- [10:58:01] <trovster>
A wha?
- [10:58:06] <trovster>
Oh, ok ;)
- [10:58:21] <drewinthehead>
like a mutlitasker, but male.
- [10:58:45] <mearso>
http://www.bearskinrug.co.uk/_articles/2005/11/09/cubbyhole/
- [11:01:47] <mearso>
cheers - stray div
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- [12:00:19] <Whiskey_M>
'lo
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gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [12:57:57] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [13:21:11] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [13:21:56] <drewinthehead>
greetings
- [13:24:12] <Whiskey_M>
'lo drew, how goes?
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- [13:24:59] <jibot>
bluesmoon is Philip from India & writes often on livejournal & sometimes about tech stuff on http://bluesmoon.blogspot.com & restaurants on http://bluesviews.blogspot.com & local food secrets on http://bluesfood.blogspot.com
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- [13:27:51] <drewinthehead>
good, Whiskey_M
- [13:30:35] * drewinthehead didn't realise flickr photo pages now sport GEO
- [13:31:17] * trovster slaps drewinthehead around a bit with a large trout
- [13:32:23] <drewinthehead>
obviously it has geolocation of images, but i hadn't spotted the use of the geo mf.
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- [13:44:53] <jibot>
Cloud_ is Cloud
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- [13:45:01] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [13:49:35] <mearso>
drew - it seems that the 3.5 release of the tails extension should support all the hCard attributes
- [13:49:48] <drewinthehead>
awesome
- [13:50:01] <drewinthehead>
where did you read that?
- [13:50:23] <mearso>
http://code.google.com/p/tails-firefox-extension/issues/detail?id=9&can=2&q=
- [13:51:07] <trovster>
mearso: The problem is with your markup! organization-name, organization-unit need to be inside the class="org"
- [13:52:13] <mearso>
I've changed the markup to what I understand
- [13:52:16] <mearso>
http://paste.css-standards.org/2315
- [13:52:44] <mearso>
is a span inside a span allowed?
- [13:53:04] <drewinthehead>
sure
- [13:53:18] <mearso>
just checking!
- [13:54:12] <drewinthehead>
looks better, mearso - http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://paste.css-standards.org/2315/view
- [13:54:48] <mearso>
cool
- [13:55:04] <mearso>
thanks for that
- [13:55:16] <drewinthehead>
for a 'business' card, fn and org should be the same
- [13:56:47] <drewinthehead>
that said, i'm not sure how i'd approach this one
- [13:57:12] <mearso>
I see the sense in that - but univerities seem to be schizophrenic - faculties and departments like to switch between pretending to be part of a wider org and denying it!
- [13:57:32] <drewinthehead>
i guess for my money the oranization-unit is Press Office, Marketing and Student Recruitment
- [13:57:39] <mearso>
I think fn and org combined is the sensible way though
- [13:57:56] <mearso>
yeah makes sense
- [13:58:14] <drewinthehead>
i guess you could use role
- [13:58:30] <drewinthehead>
or title (never sure about those two)
- [13:59:12] <drewinthehead>
anyone have any suggestions on when to use role vs. title?
- [14:04:26] <drewinthehead>
how about something like this, mearso? http://paste.css-standards.org/2316
- [14:04:32] <drewinthehead>
(just brainstorming)
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- [14:04:38] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [14:05:08] <trovster>
<drewinthehead> for a 'business' card, fn and org should be the same -- my business card has my name on it..
- [14:05:53] <drewinthehead>
i mean an hCard representing some kind of business or organisation rather than an individual
- [14:06:28] <drewinthehead>
a personal paper business card is an individual-style hCard, which would have distinct fn and org values
- [14:07:08] <trovster>
:)
- [14:07:09] * drewinthehead has been having trouble with words all day
- [14:07:25] <trovster>
The Multipack has discussed making such website, to create your own business cards with uF on ;)
- [14:07:51] <pnhChris>
i never went through with mine :P
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- [14:09:07] <pnhChris>
but i've got a design somewhere around here from earlier in the summer
- [14:09:27] <pnhChris>
but was too gimmicky
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- [14:09:45] <pnhChris>
started out as plain on one size.. and a "view source" like view on the flip side :P
- [14:09:59] <trovster>
Got an example?
- [14:10:04] <pnhChris>
even after editing it back i didn't like it
- [14:10:09] <pnhChris>
i dunno...
- [14:10:23] * drewinthehead is reminded of http://flickr.com/photos/kurioso/6755841/
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- [14:10:34] <pnhChris>
hehe
- [14:12:19] <pnhChris>
hmm.. nope.. that's my free moo test cards ... http://dev.placenamehere.com/moo_test.jpg
- [14:12:19] <drewinthehead>
if you zoom in close you can just about make out hCard and hCalendar at the top
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- [14:14:00] <pnhChris>
here's an edited copy ... i started with more text on the flip side
- [14:14:00] <pnhChris>
http://placenamehere.com/temp/hcard-card.png
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- [14:15:22] <trovster>
heh, kinda cool.
- [14:15:34] <trovster>
I'd like to do a business card with uF on
- [14:15:41] <pnhChris>
was a bit of a goof.. but i figured it i thought it worked i'd spend the time to refine them
- [14:15:52] <pnhChris>
s/it/if/
- [14:16:38] * pnhChris should be getting those free moo cards soon though
- [14:16:44] <trovster>
me too!
- [14:16:51] <trovster>
Suprised they didn't stop me, coz frm the UK
- [14:17:51] <pnhChris>
there were people from all over in one of the threads i saw on flickr
- [14:18:40] <pnhChris>
i was surprised by the free shipping too
- [14:18:46] <trovster>
Yeh :)
- [14:18:54] <trovster>
Don't think it's worth buying them, though.
- [14:19:03] <trovster>
Wierd form factor, too
- [14:19:18] <pnhChris>
i'll see
- [14:36:49] <mearso>
Cheers for the code drew
- [14:57:20] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9084 * Stuart * (+101) Examples -
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- [15:16:33] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [15:21:24] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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- [16:29:17] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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- [17:14:02] <yakk>
hey, I've got a little question
- [17:14:22] <yakk>
if I want to extract microformats from web pages in javascript, with js code running in the page what's the best way
- [17:14:46] <yakk>
the specs don't specify xpaths or CSS selectors that I should use to match microformatted content
- [17:16:04] <KevinMarks>
jquery is pretty handy
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- [17:16:09] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
- [17:17:03] * yakk checks out jquery
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- [17:20:17] <pnhChris>
how did i totally miss the fact that barcampnyc was this weekend?
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- [17:22:29] <yakk>
does "first descendant element" mean depth-first or breadth first?
- [17:35:25] <bewest>
<root><first-descendant /> <second-descendant /> </root>
- [17:38:53] <qid>
yakk: it doesn't matter for the first
- [17:41:26] <tantek>
yakk - document order
- [17:41:35] <tantek>
there is no depth in a stream ;)
- [17:41:45] <tantek>
nor breadth
- [17:42:05] <yakk>
tantek, ahh - I keep thinking of html as a tree:)
- [17:42:18] <tantek>
pnhChris - maybe because you are asking in the wrong channel (ahem #barcamp)
- [17:42:42] <tantek>
yakk, it's a common misconception ;)
- [17:43:44] <pnhChris>
only so many rooms i can be in at once (well.. not really i guess)... just flew under my radar while i was busy with other things
- [17:44:05] <yakk>
tantek, its like light - its both particles and waves at the same time?
- [17:44:18] <yakk>
s/its/it's/
- [17:45:01] <KevinMarks>
well, yes, 20 is the limit
- [17:47:13] <qid>
tantek: well, it can be represented as a tree
- [17:47:54] <tantek>
sure, but that is artificial
- [17:48:29] <tantek>
and it is the introduction of that representation which introduces the question you asked
- [17:48:36] <tantek>
rather than the original content
- [17:48:42] <tantek>
the representation is at fault for your question
- [17:49:38] <qid>
well, the question yakk asked
- [17:50:08] <qid>
and "descendant", to me, implies a tree structure
- [17:50:19] <yakk>
tantek, well, it depends if you see html as a serialization of a tree or a series of tags - are different serializations of the tree the "same html"? (for example <p></p> vs <p/>)
- [17:51:01] <yakk>
qid, right - containment is important in microformats
- [17:51:24] <tantek>
qid gets the prize ;)
- [17:51:47] <tantek>
in the context of markup, questions of order are resolved by default by referring to document order
- [17:51:56] <tantek>
if it is unspecified
- [17:52:31] <tantek>
yakk, it doesn't depend since HTML is a mime type that is defined to be a linear sequence of characters
- [17:52:47] <tantek>
from a format perspective
- [17:56:00] <yakk>
thats how the ietf defines it, but w3c defines it as "publishing language", whatever that means...
- [17:56:07] <yakk>
anyhoo, its kind of irrelevant
- [17:57:23] <yakk>
tantek, so I'm looking at writing some code for pulling values out of microformat property elements in some kind of generic way. are there some general rules that can be applied - I'm looking primarily at the section in hcard-parsing
- [17:58:00] <yakk>
tantek, I'm defining some informal property types like email & url to handle the special cases
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- [17:59:18] <tantek>
yakk, that's what i've done in hcard parsing code myself
- [18:00:16] <yakk>
tantek, are there rules that can be applied across all "standard" microformats?
- [18:00:27] <yakk>
(ie: I'm lazy and want to write as little code as possible)
- [18:00:43] <tantek>
yakk, much of hCard parsing applies across all compound microformats
- [18:01:45] <yakk>
ok cool
- [18:02:07] <qid>
I think the design patterns would count as generalities in microformats that you could parse
- [18:03:46] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
- [18:06:49] <yakk>
oh, in hcard-parsing it says:
- [18:06:51] <yakk>
For properties that may take type URL, URI, or UID, when the element for that property is:
- [18:06:51] <yakk>
* <a href> OR <area href="mailto:..."> : use the value of the 'href' attribute.
- [18:07:02] <yakk>
why do I only want the area href if it's a mailto?
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- [18:19:46] <yakk>
also, it says: <abbr>: use the value of the 'title' attribute if present, otherwise the contents of the element.
- [18:19:51] <yakk>
does that mean that the rule:
- [18:20:16] <yakk>
For all properties, if the element for a property has one or more children with a class name of "value", then concatenate the node values for all those child elements with class name of "value" in their document order, and use that concatenation as the value of the property.
- [18:20:26] <yakk>
does not apply to abbr elements?
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- [18:22:36] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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- [20:03:20] <nateritter>
any thoughts on this? I haven't gotten much response. http://blog.perfectspace.com/2006/09/14/brainstorm-wordpress-event-plugin/
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- [20:08:03] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
- [20:10:04] <Whafro>
nate: I'd put it out fully-formatted, but with enough hooks that people might be able to get creative with ways of presenting it in a more inline sort of way.
- [20:10:50] <Whafro>
I think I'd use it (and have my clients use it) in more of a calendar-like way, though...
- [20:10:52] <nateritter>
Whafro: maybe some sort of ajaxy way of showing what it's going to look like?
- [20:11:03] <nateritter>
What do you mean calandar way?
- [20:12:08] <Whafro>
just reading your comments on the site... I think I'd have more occasion to use such a plugin to add upcoming events to a site, rather than to cite events that I'm commenting on from the past, though I suppose both would be useful
- [20:12:28] <Whafro>
like upcoming speaking events, things I'm going to, or whatever
- [20:13:00] <nateritter>
sure, that's fine too... i plan on hooking it up to Eventful.com's API to search for upcoming events too.
- [20:13:10] <nateritter>
that might be a second or 3rd revision, but...
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- [20:14:29] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [20:14:34] <Whafro>
so, is the flow something like 1) you add an event 2) you write a story 3) you select an added event while writing the story to which it refers?
- [20:15:52] <Whafro>
so then, I could have a constantly-updated box on my home page that lists events that are in the future (and perhaps a story telling what I'm doing there or something), and then I can later write stories about them once they've passed, and use the same event entry as a reference joining the two
- [20:16:32] <nateritter>
well, that's the trouble. I see it more as an inline thing. I want to write about an event, mention it (like you do a link) and fill in the important pieces, and it inserts it formatted into your post inline.
- [20:17:09] <nateritter>
if there's an Eventful event to go with it, optionally link to it's detail page on Eventful.
- [20:17:13] <nateritter>
or Upcoming, or whatever.
- [20:17:36] <nateritter>
But, i'm only looking at it one way (my way).
- [20:17:38] <Whafro>
okay, so is the true end purpose of it to facilitate the markup for an hEvent when writing an inline event description?
- [20:17:47] <nateritter>
I'm interested in how others would use it.
- [20:17:55] <nateritter>
yea
- [20:18:03] <nateritter>
and hCal and hVenue possibly
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- [20:18:52] <Whafro>
okay, so if that's the end goal, then I think a toolbar-like interface would be more useful... highlight the information (say, the location) and then click on the location button on the toolbar, and the markup is affixed appropriately... then you do that for each section...
- [20:19:07] <Whafro>
and for sections (like date) that need more info, you bring up a dialog to ask for it
- [20:19:50] <Whafro>
so that way, you could just write a paragraph, and then go back and quickly mark it up by just clicking around... it doesn't have to break your stream of consciousness, and it doesn't have to break your writing style
- [20:19:55] <nateritter>
ok, so one thing i want to consider is what would make this useful to the general public who don't care about microformats....
- [20:20:03] <nateritter>
interesting
- [20:20:37] <nateritter>
good stuff... hmm...
- [20:20:43] <Whafro>
well, then add another button for "event link" and then link to upcoming/eventful/whatever
- [20:20:53] <Whafro>
highlight "Phillies game" and then click link
- [20:21:17] <Whafro>
(sorry, my schedule for the night is seeping into my examples)
- [20:21:43] <nateritter>
yea, that's where that "Insert/edit event" dialogue would show up, and it would have the Event title already filled in with whatever you highlighted.
- [20:23:50] <Whafro>
well, I think your goal right now should definitely deal with inline-style prose, so forget my initial comment, since that's kinda outside your scope... and since it's prose you're dealing with, you want to have as little output as possible... because if using your plugin meant that I'd have to begin every post with "I went to Phillies Game last night at RFK Stadium", then I'd probably do it by hand...
- [20:24:08] <nateritter>
hah.. right, exactly
- [20:24:14] <Whafro>
however, if you're just adding markup around what someone's already typed, and giving them an easy way to do that, then that's probably quite useful
- [20:24:24] * Sclizer-Rath (i=Sclizer-@88.233.252.87) Quit ()
- [20:24:34] <nateritter>
ok, cool.
- [20:24:39] <Whafro>
hope that helps
- [20:24:46] <nateritter>
do you think you would use something like this? honestly?
- [20:25:46] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [20:26:56] <Whafro>
hmmm
- [20:27:02] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
- [20:28:17] <Whafro>
I'd use it in combination with something more like I initially described
- [20:28:26] <Whafro>
my ideal tool would be something like this:
- [20:28:43] <Whafro>
1. add an event into the database, detailing as much or as little as possible
- [20:29:25] * danja (n=danja@host111-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
- [20:29:37] <Whafro>
2. author a story about the upcoming event -- "I'm speaking here in two weeks, it'll be interesting, come see it" and associate the event entry in the DB with it, and then use a tool like yours to mark it up appropriately... but there'd be a callout box on the story that has the fully-formatted event details...
- [20:30:03] <Whafro>
3. the event passes, it is removed from the upcoming events list on my homepage, which draws from the events table in the db
- [20:30:29] <Whafro>
4. I write a review/synopsis of the event, associate the story with the event (which creates the callout box), and then use a tool like yours to mark up the prose
- [20:31:02] <nateritter>
interesting...
- [20:31:10] <Whafro>
I'd use the tool like yours to either put markup around given text, or, if I haven't selected text, it'd insert the name of the selected event for me
- [20:31:12] <nateritter>
sounds like you're looking for a plugin on steriods.. hehe
- [20:31:18] <nateritter>
steroids rather
- [20:31:25] <Whafro>
haha, yeah, probably :)
- [20:31:58] <Whafro>
I don't actually use blog tools all too much and tend to roll my own CMSs (though my job has us using a common proprietary platform)
- [20:32:24] <nateritter>
that's cool. good to know where to possibly take it. Maybe some kind of branch off this plugin could do that, but I'm not sure I want to go quite that far with it yet.
- [20:32:40] <nateritter>
I'm not thinking that far into the future.
- [20:33:16] <nateritter>
My main objective is to get the masses to microformat the events they talk about. So, it has to be very unobtrusive.
- [20:33:59] <Whafro>
right
- [20:34:14] <nateritter>
cool, thanks for the perspective and help. i appreciate it.
- [20:34:19] <Whafro>
so I think an addition to the HTML toolbar would probably be the interface I'd choose...
- [20:34:20] <Whafro>
np
- [20:34:24] <nateritter>
if you have any more ideas feel free to leave a comment on my blog about it.
- [20:34:29] <Whafro>
will do
- [20:38:48] <mfbot>
[[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9085 * AndyMabbett * (+2) so.
- [20:39:29] <mfbot>
[[species-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9086 * AndyMabbett * (+3) sp.
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- [20:44:55] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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vmarks is in NC
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- [21:15:21] <mfbot>
[[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9087 * AndyMabbett * (+1613) Malcolm Storey
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- [22:00:19] <mfbot>
[[introduction]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=introduction&diff=0&oldid=9088 * AndyMabbett * (-107) What are Microformats? - still simplifying
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- [22:04:08] * yakk curses
- [22:04:18] <yakk>
generic Microformat parsing is Too Hard
- [22:04:20] <mfbot>
[[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9089 * AndyMabbett * (+78) Andy Mabbett - re-write
- [22:04:27] <yakk>
(for mere mortals like me anyway)
- [22:06:50] <KevinMarks>
what are you doing it with?
- [22:06:55] <KevinMarks>
Not your namesake I trust
- [22:07:01] <mfbot>
[[what-are-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9090 * AndyMabbett * (+79) Andy Mabbett - fmt
- [22:07:32] <mikeal>
are any iCalendar properties explicitly not allowed in hcalendar exect timezone and daylight related
- [22:08:11] <tantek>
yakk take a look at existing code
- [22:08:17] <tantek>
the Ruby microformat parsing library
- [22:08:25] <tantek>
and the other one the "AUMFP"
- [22:08:31] <mikeal>
i noticed there are no examples that include PRODID or VERSION
- [22:08:33] <tantek>
"almost universal microformat parser"
- [22:08:35] <yakk>
tantek, ok - will do
- [22:08:48] <tantek>
mikeal - see details on those properties in the spec
- [22:09:13] <tantek>
those details have very little to do with the data format and instead are application specific data
- [22:09:30] <tantek>
e.g. X2V adds them based on *its* version
- [22:10:02] <tantek>
hCalendar spec that is
- [22:10:24] <tantek>
things like "prodid" are actually very bad for interop because they provide a big gaping wide whole for proprietary interpretations
- [22:11:07] <mikeal>
i see it now
- [22:11:19] <mikeal>
if I may suggest
- [22:11:45] <mikeal>
adding a section under "More Semantic Equivalents" containing "Removed properties" would be helpful
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- [22:22:42] <yakk>
tantek, the AUMFP and hatom2atom.xsl both fail to get hatom titles correctly :(
- [22:22:55] <tantek>
really?
- [22:23:00] <tantek>
that's worthy of pointing out on the list
- [22:23:15] <yakk>
ok - I'll pipe up and complain :)
- [22:23:16] <tantek>
with a URL to the test case please!
- [22:23:24] <tantek>
their developers are quite responsive
- [22:24:41] * bear is now known as bear_afk
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- [22:32:07] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
- [22:36:31] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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- [22:45:15] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [22:58:15] * scottjungling (n=scottjun@sjc.CSUChico.EDU) Quit (Client Quit)
- [22:59:46] <hober>
hcalendar in window live writer: http://gallery.live.com/default.aspx?l=8
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- [23:11:23] <tantek>
hey hober did the timezone offset ever get fixed in eventful? last time I checked *everything* was set to Z even if it was in +0700 (PDT) etc.
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- [23:21:21] <yakk>
tantek, hey, rel-tag is for both A & AREA but not LINK, right? AREA isn't explicitly mentioned but it feels like its the other place where it would make sense to have a rel=tag
- [23:22:39] <evanpro>
yakk: that's an interesting question
- [23:22:58] <evanpro>
I think the typical answer is no, since the text isn't visible
- [23:23:02] <evanpro>
That'd be my guess
- [23:23:05] <yakk>
hmm
- [23:23:12] <yakk>
ok
- [23:23:16] <evanpro>
Well
- [23:23:19] <evanpro>
Don't go by my word
- [23:23:23] <yakk>
ok :)
- [23:23:31] <evanpro>
csarven: hey, Sarven!
- [23:23:32] <yakk>
I can drop it from my code pretty easilly
- [23:24:02] <yakk>
but it would make sense in some cases.... a server-generated tag imagemap perhaps? yuck,,,
- [23:24:12] <tantek>
well i think it should work in general unless there is a reason not to
- [23:24:18] <tantek>
you could have a graphical image tag
- [23:24:23] <tantek>
rather than a text tag
- [23:24:26] <tantek>
and still be visible
- [23:24:34] <tantek>
and the AREA would simply be overlaid on top of the image map
- [23:24:37] <tantek>
so it *could* make sense
- [23:24:41] <tantek>
never seen anyone do it though
- [23:25:05] * bear_afk is now known as bear
- [23:25:06] <tantek>
Andy mentioned this in the list but I felt it worth repeating: http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,1882029,00.html
- [23:25:18] <tantek>
pretty funny that microformats have been grouped with "the cool kids"
- [23:27:18] * KevinMarks feels young again
- [23:28:22] <yakk>
tantek, as I was writing my code I realised that taking the alt value of the area is probably the right thing in this case too
- [23:29:35] <hober>
tantek: I'll check
- [23:30:35] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
- [23:31:25] <mfbot>
[[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9091 * AndyMabbett * (+184) Notable websites - Sort; add flickr
- [23:35:01] <mfbot>
[[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9092 * AndyMabbett * (+75) Quantitative evidence - Wiki comments from site owner
- [23:46:07] * tantek (n=tantek@host43.n219-101-131-000.pri.iprevolution.ne.jp) Quit ()
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- [23:49:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [23:49:40] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [23:56:03] * bear is now known as bear_afk
- [23:58:17] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
- [23:59:46] <yakk>
hey ryan
- [23:59:52] <kingryan>
hi yakk
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