IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-10-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:07:20] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9570 * AndyMabbett * (+1671) Censorship
- [00:07:35] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("Hel Fucking Vetica")
- [00:08:10] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
- [00:14:36] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("Hel Fucking Vetica")
- [00:19:37] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9571 * Tantek * (+116) added link to demonstrate that the attempted (if inaccurate) answer is still in the history and thus retrievable - no need to be redundant/inflamatory here.
- [00:20:02] <sreynen>
this seems headed no where good
- [00:21:28] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9572 * AndyMabbett * (-51) Censorship -
- [00:22:12] <sreynen>
i don't think FAQ answers should ever provide problems without solutions. that's just not helpful
- [00:22:44] <bewest>
well, there's an adage: "You're either a part of the problem of part of the solution"
- [00:25:12] <sreynen>
i'm out of ideas on how to be part of the solution in this case
- [00:25:15] <KevinMarks>
you're either part of the solution, or part of the precipitate
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- [00:26:54] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9573 * Tantek * (+51) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [00:27:00] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
- [00:27:00] <jibot>
edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
- [00:27:35] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9574 * Tantek * (+59) restored previous history link and re-added removal link
- [00:28:04] <tantek>
KevinMarks the chemist!
- [00:29:01] <tantek>
sreynen - that's a very good point. FAQ answers should not provide problems without solutions. It is certainly not helpful.
- [00:29:36] <bewest>
time to "change horses"
- [00:29:43] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has left #microformats
- [00:36:36] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9575 * AndyMabbett * (-110) my user page,. not yours
- [00:37:18] <pnhChris>
my toy!
- [00:41:28] <sreynen>
is this going to go on all night? do i need to pop some popcorn?
- [00:42:56] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [00:43:42] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9576 * Tantek * (+110) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [00:43:58] <tantek>
please do not undo more precise changes and documentation
- [00:43:58] <sreynen>
oh man
- [00:45:55] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [00:49:23] <sreynen>
andy seem to be using the wiki to communicate with the IRC channel
- [00:49:43] <sreynen>
overlooking how absurd that is, it's actually an interesting means of communication
- [00:51:09] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9577 * AndyMabbett * (-110) Kindly do not attempt to put "words" into my "mouth"
- [00:52:35] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9578 * Tantek * (+110) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [00:52:50] <sreynen>
this is like watching a trainwreck
- [00:53:17] <sreynen>
so horrible to watch, but so hard to look away
- [00:53:22] <KevinMarks>
3 repeats, isn't that a stalemate?
- [00:53:46] <mfbot>
[[licensing-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=licensing-examples&diff=0&oldid=9579 * ChrisCasciano * (+102) Photos (reuse) -
- [00:53:57] <tantek>
3 repeated positions in particular
- [00:54:12] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9580 * AndyMabbett * (-110)
- [00:54:27] <sreynen>
aww, no comment for the audience?
- [00:54:45] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [00:56:24] <pnhChris>
totally different topic... and slightly ot... http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/10/18/internet-explorer-7-for-windows-xp-available-now.aspx
- [00:56:38] <pnhChris>
but also probably popcorn munching worthy
- [00:56:55] <sreynen>
is it half time already?
- [00:59:37] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
- [00:59:37] <jibot>
bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
- [01:02:04] <pnhChris>
i guess so
- [01:02:53] <pnhChris>
too bad
- [01:06:21] <sreynen>
anyone have any idea what the adoption rate is likely to look like for ie7?
- [01:06:35] <bewest>
sreynen: very high adoption rate
- [01:06:36] <tantek>
expect it to have a huge burst in the next few days
- [01:06:47] <bewest>
tantek: next few days?
- [01:06:48] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9581 * Tantek * (+110) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [01:07:07] <bewest>
sreynen: it's being released as a high priority, automatic, security update
- [01:07:08] <sreynen>
oh, half time's over
- [01:07:19] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9582 * AndyMabbett * (-110)
- [01:07:19] <bewest>
sreynen: they tell you when and what to download, you can choose yes or no
- [01:07:34] <bewest>
but who doesn't say yes to automatic high priority security updates?
- [01:07:51] <sreynen>
not many, i'm sure
- [01:08:10] <pnhChris>
probably more just don't have auto updates on
- [01:08:12] <pnhChris>
but
- [01:08:21] <bewest>
tantek: why do you say next few days?
- [01:08:26] <pnhChris>
it'll be fairly quick to be a meaningful %
- [01:08:29] * bewest would like a few more weaks
- [01:08:30] <sreynen>
i probably should have done more testing on the betas
- [01:08:59] <bewest>
weaks?
- [01:09:01] <bewest>
weeks, even
- [01:09:30] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:AndyMabbett" with an expiry time of 24 hours: excessive reverts of more precise changes and documentation - 24 hour cooling off
- [01:09:41] <mfbot>
[[User:AndyMabbett]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=9583 * Tantek * (+110) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [01:10:07] <tantek>
reverted to last version with more precise links and documentation
- [01:10:53] <bewest>
next few days...
- [01:11:42] <bewest>
ah they just released
- [01:11:45] <bewest>
sreynen: they've released
- [01:12:39] <bewest>
oh automatic updates come later
- [01:12:43] <bewest>
*phew*
- [01:12:47] <sreynen>
yeah, pnhChris sent the link just before you arrived, bewest
- [01:12:50] <bewest>
oh
- [01:12:52] <bewest>
well
- [01:12:54] <bewest>
I suck then
- [01:13:57] <sreynen>
i won't hold it against you
- [01:14:08] <sreynen>
i've been known to leave IRC at times
- [01:15:33] <pnhChris>
leave irc!?!
- [01:20:19] <tantek>
like this:
- [01:20:21] <tantek>
ttfn!
- [01:20:32] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [01:20:47] <pnhChris>
sure, leave us to pick up the pieces
- [01:20:49] <pnhChris>
:P
- [01:21:50] <sreynen>
i'm surprised there hasn't already been a flurry of emails since the wiki war ended
- [01:22:12] <bewest>
meh
- [01:22:18] <sreynen>
here i am with half a bag of popcorn left
- [01:22:24] <bewest>
Andy isn't stupid
- [01:22:50] <bewest>
he might have been blocked from the mailing list; who knows
- [01:25:24] <sreynen>
i doubt it. he only got a 24 hour ban from the wiki, so apparently tantek still has some hope of resolving the situation
- [01:34:39] * pnhChris doesn't know why
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- [01:37:32] <jibot>
vmarks is in NC
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- [01:39:25] <bewest>
pnhChris: because that is what would be best, overall
- [01:39:50] <pnhChris>
no, i mean.. i don't konw why i replied on the list
- [01:40:12] <bewest>
oh... because it's hard not to
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- [02:18:15] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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- [02:57:30] <mfbot>
[[licensing-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=licensing-examples&diff=0&oldid=9584 * Mike Linksvayer * (+11) Rights warranty/idemnification availability - rename section
- [02:58:45] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
- [03:00:36] <mfbot>
[[licensing-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=licensing-examples&diff=0&oldid=9585 * Mike Linksvayer * (+104) License notice with content hash - explanatory url
- [03:01:07] <mfbot>
[[licensing-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=licensing-examples&diff=0&oldid=9586 * Mike Linksvayer * (-2) License notice with content hash - oops too many square brackets
- [03:02:43] <mfbot>
[[licensing-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=licensing-examples&diff=0&oldid=9587 * Mike Linksvayer * (-52) Licensing Examples - "availability" adds nothing to section headings
- [03:06:35] <BobJonkman>
I need some help with Wiki markup I can't include an "<a href..." example; the Wiki messes it up, even when I supply <pre><nowiki>
- [03:07:26] <BobJonkman>
I'm working on http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq
- [03:07:44] <SignpostMarv>
[http://example.com/]
- [03:07:53] <SignpostMarv>
[http://example.com/ text]
- [03:08:22] <BobJonkman>
Yes, that part. I'm going to save the changes, you'll see what I mean. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#X2V_does_not_convert_email_with_name_as_plain_text
- [03:08:32] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
- [03:08:35] <mfbot>
[[hcard-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-faq&diff=0&oldid=9588 * Bob Jonkman * (+453) X2V does not convert email with name as plain text - changed example to 'example.com', supplied valid hcard markup
- [03:09:34] <SignpostMarv>
ah
- [03:09:39] <SignpostMarv>
use < and >
- [03:09:49] <SignpostMarv>
instead of < and >
- [03:09:53] <SignpostMarv>
that might help a bit
- [03:09:54] <BobJonkman>
The trouble with using [http://example.com text text] is that I can't make it a "live example" with microformat markup
- [03:10:09] <bewest>
BobJonkman: you have to use html entities
- [03:10:21] <mfbot>
[[licensing-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=licensing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9589 * Mike Linksvayer * (+857) Discussion - provenance; see examples
- [03:10:25] <bewest>
BobJonkman: html encoding encodes < as <, > as >
- [03:10:39] <bewest>
& as &, " as "
- [03:11:37] <BobJonkman>
OK, but that won't create a "live example". I actualy want to provide a microformatted link on the page so that microformat enabled browsers can render it.
- [03:11:41] <SignpostMarv>
ah
- [03:11:44] <SignpostMarv>
I see that
- [03:11:45] <SignpostMarv>
hmm
- [03:12:03] <BobJonkman>
Creating live examplesThis was briefly discussed on the mailing list a few days ago
- [03:12:04] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
- [03:12:11] <bewest>
oh, sorry
- [03:12:28] <SignpostMarv>
MediaWiki auto creating a link around the email address right ?
- [03:12:29] <BobJonkman>
It's a tricky business, this Wiki stuff.
- [03:13:09] <BobJonkman>
If I create the Wiki text as [http://email@example.com] everything becomes a link automatically
- [03:13:20] <BobJonkman>
But then I can't apply microformats.
- [03:13:25] <SignpostMarv>
would <nowiki>email@example.com</nowiki> not work ?
- [03:13:54] <BobJonkman>
And when I type <a class="email" href="emai@example.com"> then I get the mess I just created
- [03:14:10] <BobJonkman>
(I'll revert it when this discussion is done)
- [03:14:40] <BobJonkman>
No, <nowiki></nowiki> has no effect. See the first example box in http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#X2V_does_not_convert_email_with_name_as_plain_text
- [03:16:20] <BobJonkman>
I mean that it has no effect in rendering the "<a href" entiity. <nowiki> works as designed by displaying the actual code
- [03:16:37] <SignpostMarv>
hmm
- [03:16:49] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [03:18:15] <SignpostMarv>
entity for @ ?
- [03:18:18] <BobJonkman>
And another thing: The [edit] sections don't line up with the sections they're supposed to edit. The correct link is a few sections below the section it actually edits. I lack the Wiki-fu to fix that.
- [03:18:37] <bewest>
gah
- [03:18:43] <bewest>
so frustrating!
- [03:18:45] <bewest>
gah
- [03:18:57] <bewest>
gah
- [03:19:03] <bewest>
I hate wiki syntax
- [03:19:09] <BobJonkman>
I see you see what I mean... :)
- [03:19:26] * bewest has a case of the heebie-jeebies
- [03:22:10] <BobJonkman>
So I'm going to comment out the messy bits, and leave only the first example box.
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- [03:28:02] <mfbot>
[[hcard-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-faq&diff=0&oldid=9590 * Bob Jonkman * (+291) X2V does not convert email with name as plain text - Commented out poorly rendered example
- [03:30:22] <bewest>
gah
- [03:30:24] * bewest gives up
- [03:30:34] * bewest has a hissie fit
- [03:30:44] <BobJonkman>
Me too. Bedtime. I'll sleep it off.
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- [04:15:35] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [04:56:31] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9591 * Bob Jonkman * (+279) /*New List Proposal*/ Poll participation
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- [05:24:53] <Ashley`>
Can someone explain what exactly xoxo is supposed to do/be? It's just going way over my head.
- [05:29:22] <Frederic>
morning
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- [05:30:12] <BobJonkman>
It's a way of representing a collection of objects. think of a bunch of bookmarks, or RSS feeds,
- [05:31:44] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [05:31:48] <BobJonkman>
XOXO is similar to OPML, but better defined, imho
- [05:34:07] <Ashley`>
Yeah, I'm reading the spec but i'm not seeing what's different between it and a plain old list. Is it just supposed to make stuff easier to parse?
- [05:35:17] <BobJonkman>
That's the idea behind all microformats -- the presentation on a web page is somewhat arbitrary, but the markup is unambiguous. This lets automated processes extract the microformats.
- [05:37:02] <BobJonkman>
Not just list processors or vcard extractors. Someone on the mailing list recently pointed out that speech readers and other assistive devices and software benefit immensely when they can identify what the different parts of a page are supposed to represent.
- [05:38:40] <Ashley`>
Yeah, so forgiving my denseness, it's just a more standardised way to mark up content, right?
- [05:39:49] <BobJonkman>
yup. Although the word "standardised" may be a bit too formal. I don't think any standards bodies have yet put their stamp of approval on any microformats.
- [05:40:07] <Ashley`>
Well an attempt to be more standardised then.
- [05:40:20] * Ashley` refrains from putting the word "yeah" on the front of another sentence.
- [05:40:41] <Ashley`>
I think I get it now, thanks. It had me _so_ puzzled.
- [05:41:04] <BobJonkman>
Most of the Wiki pages indicate that the microformats will eventually be proposed to either the IETF or the W3C.
- [05:41:44] <Ashley`>
Yeah, I noticed that. :-) Still, a de-facto standard is better than a mess.
- [05:41:46] <BobJonkman>
But I'm a fine one to talk; I have yet to do anything at all with XOXO.
- [05:42:17] <Ashley`>
Damn, there's another "yeah"
- [05:42:21] <BobJonkman>
I've got a bunch of link farms on my web page, none have been marked up with XOXO
- [05:42:50] <Ashley`>
Make the time. :-P
- [05:42:50] <BobJonkman>
Me, I used to be a "Well..." prefixer :-)
- [05:43:32] <BobJonkman>
I know. Too busy either working, commuting, or decompressing from work and the commute...
- [05:44:33] <Ashley`>
I'm a bit like that. I'm not working today, so I figure I should start work on one of my projects.
- [05:46:41] <BobJonkman>
OK, just poking around. http://techtoucian.net/prevrant.php#Archive would be a good candidate for XOXO markup
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- [05:49:38] <mfbot>
[[xoxo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=0&oldid=9592 * Ashley * (+1) Publishing XOXO - Fixed improperly closed tag.
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- [05:50:25] <Ashley`>
So with the "older articles" section, to make it xoxo, what should I do with the date?
- [05:51:38] * BobJonkman goes and looks at XOXO examples on http://microformats.org/wikw/xoxo
- [05:54:39] <BobJonkman>
The dates aren't part of the article name or link. I don't know just yet.
- [05:56:52] <BobJonkman>
My guess would be to change <ul id="Archive"> to <ul id="Archive" class="xoxo">
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- [05:59:20] <Ashley`>
See, that's what I just don't get. I don't see the benefit to just adding a class name.
- [05:59:34] <Ashley`>
Thanks so much for your help with this though. It's really appreciated.
- [06:01:03] <BobJonkman>
With the addition of a class name the element with the class is recognized as a list structure of interest to parsers. The page may contain other list structures, eg. for a TOC menu, which would not have the class="xoxo"
- [06:01:28] <Ashley`>
Hmm, you're right.
- [06:07:39] <Ashley`>
Well, I'm working on a project that's going to use pretty much every microformat I can think of and then som, so I'll have to check back here along the way and see if I'm doing it right. :-)
- [06:08:45] <BobJonkman>
For your example with the dates, you could mark them up as <li class="alt0"><dl><dt>url</dt><dd><a href="/muse/2006/10/06/Storage_and_the_Elements">Storage and the Elements</a></dd> <dt>description></dt><dd><small>(6th October)</small></dd></dl></li>
- [06:10:29] <BobJonkman>
I've just used a <dl> structure to identify the components of one of the list items. You'd use CSS to suppress the <dt></dt> elements, eg. ".xoxo dt { display: none; } "
- [06:11:44] <BobJonkman>
And you should probably put the dates in <abbr title="2006-10-06">6th October</abbr> format too...
- [06:12:02] <Ashley`>
I should indeeed.
- [06:12:06] <Ashley`>
I'll do that now.
- [06:13:04] <BobJonkman>
Well, in my timezone it's past my bedtime. Gotta go...
- [06:13:05] <Ashley`>
Should I use "2006-10-06" or go all-out ISO 8601?
- [06:13:18] <Ashley`>
Fair enough. Thakns again for all your help.
- [06:13:40] <BobJonkman>
Don't know about that. I'm not sure what the convention is for a date without a time.
- [06:13:58] <Ashley`>
It's all in the DB.
- [06:14:09] <Ashley`>
I'll work it out, you go rest. :-)
- [06:14:17] <BobJonkman>
OK, g'night.
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- [06:33:14] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [08:23:59] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [08:28:25] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
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- [08:33:55] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
- [08:35:02] <McNulty>
morning all
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- [08:42:59] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [09:09:08] <heycam>
Hi. In an hCard, how would I reference my photo without using an img/object element (since I don't want it displayed there)?
- [09:10:55] <McNulty>
heycam - the emphasis on hCard, and other microformats in general, on marking up existing content.
- [09:11:11] <heycam>
Right, but is it possible still?
- [09:11:14] <McNulty>
However, you can hide the photo using CSS, I expect
- [09:11:20] <heycam>
ok
- [09:11:34] <heycam>
Non-CSS browsers would still show it though.
- [09:11:55] <trovster>
Why don't you want it to show, without CSS?
- [09:12:03] <McNulty>
Is it a bad photo ;-)
- [09:12:07] <heycam>
Heh :)
- [09:12:25] <McNulty>
Can you use an A as a photo?
- [09:12:35] <heycam>
No, just don't want it displayed in there. I'm making an hCard out of a couple of paragraphs of text/some bullet points about myself, and I don't want to stick a photo in the middle of it.
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- [09:13:12] <heycam>
Is there a general rule that you can use a title attribute as the value of a property? or does that only work for specific properties?
- [09:13:17] <McNulty>
heycam - you could have it elsewhere on the page and use the include pattern to refer to it?
- [09:14:09] <heycam>
oh that might work
- [09:14:10] * Whiskey_M (i=user@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
- [09:14:16] <Whiskey_M>
'lo and good morning :)
- [09:14:28] <McNulty>
@title should be used for ABBR elements
- [09:14:40] <McNulty>
I don't *think* it applies to any others
- [09:14:52] <Whiskey_M>
dtstart?
- [09:15:05] <McNulty>
dtstart should be an ABBR, right
- [09:15:13] <heycam>
for some reason don't really like use abbr elements like that
- [09:15:22] <heycam>
seems like an abuse of abbr, since it's not an abbreviation
- [09:15:26] <trovster>
McNulty: Yeh.
- [09:15:30] <McNulty>
@title won't be taken as the value of any other elements
- [09:15:49] <heycam>
and i don't always want tooltips popping up with some ISO datetime value showing up
- [09:15:50] <KevinMarks>
no, it is an abbreviation
- [09:16:12] <McNulty>
heycam - that's a common debate... you should avoid using it in contexts where it's not an abbreviation
- [09:16:15] <KevinMarks>
june 3rd is an abbreviation of 2006-06-03
- [09:16:30] <heycam>
ok, i could buy that the date strings are an abbreviation of the long english form
- [09:16:41] <McNulty>
KevinMarks - I don't know if heycam's specifically talking about the date pattern
- [09:16:42] <heycam>
but something like <span class=
- [09:16:56] <KevinMarks>
no, the short english form is an abbreviation of the full datetime
- [09:17:48] <heycam>
and something like <span class="value" title="voice">home phone</span> will result in a tooltip too
- [09:17:52] <heycam>
which is a bit funny
- [09:18:13] <heycam>
(if i remembered the syntax correctly)
- [09:18:40] <heycam>
KevinMarks, oh yes, it is the other way around isn't it
- [09:19:04] <heycam>
ok i dislike it slightly more now :)
- [09:19:25] <McNulty>
heycam - it comes back to this thing about microformats adding structure to the existing documents. There's not a mechanism for 'hiding' stuff in @titles
- [09:19:46] <McNulty>
@titles are there in ABBR to explain fully what is only there in abbreviated form in the document
- [09:20:13] <heycam>
(i'm new to microformats so i guess i'm not up on all the reasoning behind certain decisions)
- [09:20:33] <heycam>
McNulty, yeah, but primarily as an aid to the reader, right?
- [09:20:55] <heycam>
the ISO date format doesn't seem nice as an explanation to a non-techy reader
- [09:21:43] <KevinMarks>
well, if you use the dashes and colons variant it's not too bad
- [09:23:13] <McNulty>
ABBR is primarily there to explain that something's an abbreviation ;-)
- [09:23:16] <heycam>
it's better, yes (i forgot that you they were optional)
- [09:23:31] <heycam>
and also what it's an abbreviation of, surely
- [09:23:42] <McNulty>
I think the default tooltip/dashed-line display is often dumb, and I'd like to be able to turn it off sometimes.
- [09:24:00] <McNulty>
well yes the title explains what it's an abbreviation of
- [09:24:06] <heycam>
i guess that's the price to pay for using a more semanticful element than span :)
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- [09:24:17] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [09:24:24] <McNulty>
You agree it's an abbreviation though, right? ;-)
- [09:24:41] <Whiskey_M>
morning Drew, you all ready?
- [09:24:51] <McNulty>
25th January is an abbreviation of 2006-01-25
- [09:25:43] <heycam>
i'm not so sure, since "25th January" is longer than "2006-01-25"
- [09:26:26] <KevinMarks>
it omits the year
- [09:26:54] <heycam>
it does...
- [09:26:59] <heycam>
what about "25th January, 2006"
- [09:27:44] <KevinMarks>
you will admit that '9:30' is an abbreviation of "2006-11-03T21:30:00+00:00"
- [09:28:04] <heycam>
yep
- [09:34:24] <heycam>
anyway, it's not such an important point. i'll come back later to see people's thoughts on using 'url' properties for IM accounts, bfn
- [09:39:02] <McNulty>
see you
- [09:41:04] <mfbot>
[[User:Phae]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Phae&diff=0&oldid=9593 * Phae * (+395) About time I updated this
- [09:42:32] <drewinthehead>
morning Whiskey_M ... belatedly :)
- [09:43:11] <McNulty>
drewinthehead - all ready?
- [09:45:29] <drewinthehead>
i think so
- [09:45:37] <drewinthehead>
pretty much ... all my slides are done
- [09:46:17] <drewinthehead>
i think i'll hole myself up in a meeting room at lunch time and run through a couple of times ;)
- [09:47:38] <McNulty>
I'm pondering whether to come, i have another thing I'm trying to get out of
- [09:48:38] <trovster>
Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
- [09:48:49] <Whiskey_M>
probably not ;)
- [09:49:55] <trovster>
But it's the same thing we try to do every night.
- [09:50:12] <McNulty>
heh
- [09:50:13] <Whiskey_M>
ahhh taking over the world
- [09:53:55] <drewinthehead>
heh
- [09:59:14] <KevinMarks>
I have a cunning plan...
- [10:03:53] <Whiskey_M>
More cunning that a fox that has through years of study and cunning become Professor of cunning at Oxford university?
- [10:04:57] <McNulty>
Ladies and gentlemen: the #Microformats Comedy Revue
- [10:06:01] <drewinthehead>
what's the cunning plan, KevinMarks? microformats embroidered socks?
- [10:06:38] <KevinMarks>
no, I think we have the logo promotion covered
- [10:06:57] <drewinthehead>
there's a gap in the market for geek hatpins.
- [10:06:59] <KevinMarks>
my plan is embedding microformat support in agile web dev toolkits
- [10:07:13] <KevinMarks>
girl-shaped t-shirts ftw
- [10:08:00] <drewinthehead>
any examples?
- [10:08:21] <KevinMarks>
no, it's a plan so far
- [10:08:41] <KevinMarks>
the point is to emphasise the 'schema convergence' aspect
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- [10:09:04] <KevinMarks>
so if you want to make a 'person' in rails, use hCard
- [10:09:05] <KevinMarks>
etc
- [10:09:16] <KevinMarks>
Ning has some examples, come to think of it
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- [10:10:26] <drewinthehead>
ah ok, so Rails, Django, Cake etc
- [10:10:45] <drewinthehead>
Symphony ...
- [10:10:58] <KevinMarks>
right
- [10:11:11] <KevinMarks>
then you cna move stuff between them mroe easily
- [10:11:20] <KevinMarks>
and have shared CSS and JS too
- [10:15:13] <drewinthehead>
not sure how that would actually play out, but i like the sound of it
- [10:19:51] <Whiskey_M>
kinda doing that already here - unfortunately at present the engine is too closely integrated into our closed source cms - we do have fun stuff in the pipeline though which will be open
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- [10:27:38] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [10:35:02] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9594 * CameronMcCormack * (+2) Implementations - Updated link to Tails
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- [11:23:29] <Frederic>
re
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[[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=9595 * ChristopheDucamp * (+391)
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[[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=9596 * ChristopheDucamp * (+110)
- [12:14:48] <mfbot>
[[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=9597 * ChristopheDucamp * (+610) Discussions Exploratoires -
- [12:15:29] <mfbot>
[[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=9598 * ChristopheDucamp * (+70) Outils & et Tests de Cas & Recherche Supplémentaire -
- [12:15:55] <mfbot>
[[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=9599 * ChristopheDucamp * (+73) espaces de travail partagés -
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Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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[[spread-microformats-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/spread-microformats-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1061)
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- [12:46:57] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
- [12:47:30] <McNulty>
hi
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- [12:58:58] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [13:33:15] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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[[hcard-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9600 * ChristopheDucamp * (+45) Plus d'Equivalents Sémantiques -
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- [13:43:56] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [13:44:36] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9601 * ChristopheDucamp * (+236) Extraction de Valeur -
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[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9602 * ChristopheDucamp * (-10) valeurs sous-propriété type -
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- [13:47:20] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [13:47:53] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9603 * ChristopheDucamp * (+78) Echantillon vCard -
- [13:52:44] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-0e6ed125ebdfeb04) has joined #microformats
- [13:52:44] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [13:53:04] <drewinthehead>
greetings
- [13:53:25] <pnhChris>
hola
- [13:54:24] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9604 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1379) Nouveaux Exemples -
- [13:55:21] <briansuda>
hello
- [13:55:25] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [13:55:25] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [13:55:52] <drewinthehead>
hey Phae
- [13:55:57] <Phae>
hey
- [13:56:02] <Phae>
ready for wsg?
- [13:56:19] <drewinthehead>
yeah .. i've just run through my presentation, and i think it's going to be fine
- [13:56:24] <Phae>
:)
- [13:57:04] <drewinthehead>
quietly meeping to myself, but yeah, it'll be fine
- [13:57:06] <Whiskey_M>
cool
- [13:57:11] <Phae>
It'll be fine.
- [13:57:31] <Phae>
I have my map printed. I haven't been to this venue before.
- [13:57:31] <drewinthehead>
i have 70 slides, so it can't go *that* far wrong
- [13:57:34] <Phae>
70!!
- [13:57:36] <Phae>
blimey
- [13:57:43] * Phae packs a pillow.
- [13:57:52] <trovster>
Yeh, just get over yourself drewinthehead
- [13:57:54] * Phae is also kidding.
- [13:58:06] <pnhChris>
oh no! getting heckled already!
- [13:58:07] <McNulty>
so 1 slide/min? ;-)
- [13:58:10] <drewinthehead>
hah :)
- [13:58:14] <Whiskey_M>
lol - my last train goes at 11:20 I don't want to have to leave halfway through ;-)
- [13:58:15] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9605 * ChristopheDucamp * (+443) Nouveaux Exemples -
- [13:58:25] <drewinthehead>
it's 30mins
- [13:58:33] <Phae>
oh. it's going to be a snappy one then
- [13:58:54] <drewinthehead>
a slide every 25secs .. ish
- [13:59:19] <Whiskey_M>
well I have map in hand, and will be off in about 45mins to brave South Eastern rail
- [13:59:24] <drewinthehead>
i figure it's hard to get board if there's always something new to look at ;)
- [13:59:39] <drewinthehead>
finding the venue isn't too hard - head for BT Tower
- [13:59:43] <Phae>
m'k
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- [13:59:54] <drewinthehead>
it's pretty much at the bottom of the tower
- [13:59:58] <drewinthehead>
near enough, anyway
- [14:00:03] <Phae>
hmm. easy enough
- [14:00:11] <Whiskey_M>
finding the venue.... I've just got the important part circled; the pub ;)
- [14:00:21] <drewinthehead>
it'd be better if it was at the top of the tower...
- [14:00:31] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9606 * ChristopheDucamp * (+106) Exemples -
- [14:00:32] <Phae>
yes
- [14:02:42] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9607 * ChristopheDucamp * (+83) Exemples avec quelques problèmes -
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- [14:06:08] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9608 * ChristopheDucamp * (+300) Implémentations -
- [14:07:05] <drewinthehead>
has anyone done an implementation of X2V that accepts a string of markup rather than a uri?
- [14:09:26] <drewinthehead>
i'm parsing a document with javascript, and encountering hcards that i can't single out with a fragment ID, but that i wish to export as a vcard
- [14:10:12] <briansuda>
there is a full javascript hCard parser
- [14:10:47] <briansuda>
http://leftlogic.com
- [14:10:52] <McNulty>
It'd be interesting to see a parser that took an XPath.
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- [14:11:23] <briansuda>
X2V is XSLT using XPath
- [14:12:08] <briansuda>
http://leftlogic.com/js/microformats.js
- [14:12:12] <McNulty>
hm
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- [14:23:10] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9609 * ChristopheDucamp * (+87) Implémentations -
- [14:24:51] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9610 * ChristopheDucamp * (+94) Pages Apparentées -
- [14:25:13] <drewinthehead>
oo, ok, that's interesting
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- [14:25:55] <drewinthehead>
although it's not going to be as robust as X2V :/
- [14:26:07] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=9611 * ChristopheDucamp * (+190)
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- [14:26:56] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
- [14:27:13] <mfbot>
[[hcard-authoring-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-authoring-fr&diff=0&oldid=9612 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Déterminez l'Elément Surrounding pour Chacun -
- [14:27:59] <mfbot>
[[hcard-authoring-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-authoring-fr&diff=0&oldid=9613 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) Déterminez l'Elément Environnant pour Chacun -
- [14:30:41] <briansuda>
yeah, i looked at how the Javascript works, it is using jQuery
- [14:30:56] <briansuda>
jQuery can take CSS declarations (.vcard .fn) and extract that data
- [14:31:23] <briansuda>
and/or it can take basic XPath as well (@class="vcard"//@class["fn"])
- [14:31:45] <briansuda>
you are right, there are some serious shortcomings (i saw that not because i wrote X2V)
- [14:31:58] <briansuda>
but because with CSS you can't say NOT so .tel NOT a child of DEL
- [14:32:23] <briansuda>
you can with XPath, but their Xpath support is not complete (understandable so! it is pretty big)
- [14:32:53] <briansuda>
I was playing around with jQuery to extract an hCard and serialise that into a LiveClipBoard object
- [14:33:16] <briansuda>
that what when i updated my HTML, my LiveCP data updated dynamically from the DOM by jQuery
- [14:33:42] <briansuda>
i didn't get very far, but leftlogic has done a GREAT job in getting alot of data out!
- [14:33:54] <briansuda>
i also like the fact that they also support the DATA: protocol!
- [14:34:03] <drewinthehead>
the nice thing about using X2V as a base is that it's likely going to be the most comprehensive and up-to-date, at least for now
- [14:34:08] <drewinthehead>
yeah, a very nice job :)
- [14:34:10] <drewinthehead>
looks good too
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- [15:26:06] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [15:27:22] <briansuda>
mlinksva, you have been floating a few Qs on the mailing list about rel="license"
- [15:27:54] <briansuda>
i had a few thoughts here and there, but don't do enough licensing to be able to contribute much
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- [15:34:19] * tantek scrolls up
- [15:39:24] <Phae>
gr. i suppose i should get my act together and head into london
- [15:40:24] <McNulty>
I've failed to extricate myself from my many social engagements
- [15:40:35] <McNulty>
I must start checking the events list more than once every 2 mo
- [15:40:39] <Phae>
Thats a shame.
- [15:40:54] <briansuda>
good luck tonight guys and gals!
- [15:41:16] <McNulty>
yeah, indeed! Share the slides afterwards ;-)
- [15:43:08] <Phae>
drew?
- [15:43:14] <drewinthehead>
hey :)
- [15:43:19] <Phae>
which is the closest tube? :)
- [15:43:36] <drewinthehead>
let me check
- [15:43:48] <Phae>
goodge?
- [15:44:02] <drewinthehead>
goodge, yeah
- [15:44:06] <Phae>
okies. cool.
- [15:45:16] <Phae>
m'k. see ya later on. :)
- [15:45:19] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
- [15:45:23] <McNulty>
I think you just head towards BT tower if you're lost
- [15:49:05] * drewinthehead nods
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- [16:11:15] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [16:14:39] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-fr&diff=0&oldid=9614 * ChristopheDucamp * (+476) synchro with hcalendar
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- [16:22:29] <lucasvo>
someone using tails extension?
- [16:22:47] <lucasvo>
I don't know how to install the scripts
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- [16:33:56] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-intro-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-intro-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+4047) traduction de hcalendar-intro
- [16:34:06] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-intro-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-intro-fr&diff=0&oldid=9615 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0)
- [16:34:23] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-intro-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-intro-fr&diff=0&oldid=9616 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Voir aussi -
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- [16:36:29] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-intro-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-intro-fr&diff=0&oldid=9617 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2)
- [16:39:40] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=9618 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2)
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- [16:58:10] <jibot>
DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
- [16:58:18] <DanC_lap>
oh for hCalendar on http://www.aaaairportexpress.com/routes/athens.html .
- [17:00:59] * DanC (n=connolly@64-126-89-30.dyn.everestkc.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:00:59] <jibot>
DanC is Dan Connolly http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
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- [17:05:29] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [17:09:48] <lucasvo>
how can I include the N and FN into a table like this:<table class="hcard"> <tbody><tr><td class="label">Given name:</td><td class="given-name">John</td></tr><tr><td class="label">Family name:</td><td class="family-name">Bush</td></tr></table>?
- [17:10:18] <lucasvo>
because if I set <tbody class="fn n">, fn becomse: Given name John Family name: Bush
- [17:11:41] <briansuda>
you SHOULD be able to also use class='value"
- [17:12:02] <briansuda>
FN will extract ALL children if no value is explicitly set
- [17:12:14] <briansuda>
otherwise it will cat together all class="value"
- [17:12:21] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [17:12:24] <briansuda>
so... your HTML should be something like
- [17:12:47] <briansuda>
<tr><td class="label">Given name:</td><td class="given-name"><span class="value">John</span></td></tr>
- [17:12:51] <briansuda>
make sense?
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- [17:12:57] <mfbot>
[[xoxo-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-fr&diff=0&oldid=9619 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) XOXO XHTML Valide - typo
- [17:13:20] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit ()
- [17:13:20] <lucasvo>
briansuda: can I also use <td class="given-name value">?
- [17:13:33] <briansuda>
maybe.,..
- [17:13:43] <lucasvo>
I don't like the fact that this generates twice as much html code
- [17:13:55] <briansuda>
the class-"value" would then ONLY apply to FN, not N, but N is appearing OK already
- [17:14:09] <briansuda>
so it should be fine
- [17:14:17] <briansuda>
give it a try and see what happens
- [17:14:36] <lucasvo>
no, n doesn't work either
- [17:15:24] <briansuda>
what are you using Tails? or X2V, do you have a link?
- [17:15:24] <lucasvo>
well, tails still reports the same FN
- [17:15:33] <lucasvo>
no, it's locally
- [17:15:41] <lucasvo>
but I can set something up
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- [17:15:43] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [17:15:47] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [17:19:14] <lucasvo>
briansuda: Trails what does it display, FN or N?
- [17:19:21] <briansuda>
not sure
- [17:20:36] <lucasvo>
FN
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- [17:23:01] <lucasvo>
value obviously doesn't seem to work
- [17:23:14] <briansuda>
do you have the page online?
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- [17:23:41] <briansuda>
we can test it with X2V, then if it works we can try to urge the Tails author to add it in
- [17:25:26] <lucasvo>
http://wservices.ch/~lucas/ablage/hcard.html
- [17:25:42] <lucasvo>
it's a webframework, I just copied the template
- [17:25:44] <lucasvo>
but it should work
- [17:27:38] <briansuda>
that works for me
- [17:27:40] <lucasvo>
http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/
- [17:27:46] <briansuda>
http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http%3A//wservices.ch/%7Elucas/ablage/hcard.html
- [17:27:49] <lucasvo>
seems to return a correct result
- [17:27:52] <lucasvo>
yes
- [17:27:53] <briansuda>
that is pretty much what you would exoect
- [17:28:06] <lucasvo>
ok, so it's tails
- [17:28:18] <briansuda>
(I think) Tails development has been moved to google code, so you can add bug tickets
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- [17:28:33] <lucasvo>
will do
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- [17:32:09] <briansuda>
this looks promising: http://code.google.com/p/tails-firefox-extension/
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- [17:34:01] <jibot>
kensanata is blogging at http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
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- [17:39:23] <jibot>
bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
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- [17:43:53] <lucasvo>
briansuda: thanks for the help!
- [17:44:15] <briansuda>
not a problem, just ask away anytime if you have any others
- [17:44:42] <lucasvo>
btw, is SOAP also a microformat?
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- [17:47:17] <briansuda>
SOAP, no
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- [17:47:31] <briansuda>
nor is XML-RPC
- [17:47:58] <briansuda>
those are more about communications between two seperate programs
- [17:48:04] <briansuda>
microformats are about semantics.
- [17:48:24] <briansuda>
you COULD have microformats over SOAP/RSS/XML-RPC, but they are two different things
- [17:49:52] <bewest>
although you could potentially use XOXO as a data binding
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- [17:52:32] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [18:29:39] <jibot>
amanuelPB is running The Intentional Web Initiative http://intentionalweb.org
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- [18:47:03] <DanC>
yay for yahoo local. http://local.yahoo.com/details?id=13779205&stx=holiday+inn&csz=Athens%2C+GA
- [18:47:13] <DanC>
FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Holiday Inn
- [18:47:14] <DanC>
ADR;CHARSET=UTF-8:;;197 E Broad St;Athens;GA;30601;
- [18:47:14] <DanC>
TEL:(706) 549-4433
- [18:47:24] <DanC>
via x2v and xsltproc with the --html flag
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- [19:10:32] <mfbot>
[[hresume-issues]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-issues * RyanKing * (+1430) added hcalendar dtend/present issue
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- [19:47:02] <jibot>
DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
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- [19:59:25] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [20:37:31] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on
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