IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-10-25
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:08:33] <tommorris>
Is there any reason why putting dtstart and dtend data on a SPAN element is a problem?
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- [00:11:21] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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- [00:13:11] <jibot>
vmarks is in NC
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- [01:28:03] <mfbot>
[[spread-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=spread-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9819 * Tantek * (+305) added intro/scoping text and see also links
- [01:30:04] <mfbot>
[[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=9820 * Tantek * (+183) added see also links, intro text linking to [[spread-microformats]]
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- [03:31:38] <mfbot>
[[citation-formats-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-formats-fr&diff=0&oldid=9821 * Nullepart * (+11) Types citation BibTeX -
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- [03:48:00] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [05:04:22] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists-proposals]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9822 * Lachlan Hunt * (+18) Corrected my votes
- [05:05:01] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [05:10:41] <Frederic>
morning
- [05:15:40] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("back soon, no doubt")
- [05:18:58] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists-proposals]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9823 * Lachlan Hunt * (+134) Added -wg and -tf proposals
- [05:36:44] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [05:36:45] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [07:01:15] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
- [07:10:22] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists-proposals]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9824 * Tantek * (+1495) updated votes, noted microformats principle of simplicity/minimalism
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- [07:38:53] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [08:01:08] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [08:01:43] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-b566e57b8d67c3ab) has joined #microformats
- [08:01:43] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [08:21:49] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
- [08:21:49] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
- [08:23:03] <McNulty>
morning
- [08:23:20] <McNulty>
drewinthehead - what's the procedure for hKit bug reports / nitpicking?
- [08:23:34] <drewinthehead>
morning
- [08:23:41] <drewinthehead>
erm ... just badger me
- [08:24:07] <McNulty>
OK... consider yourself badgered. I've found an a.include quirk and I know the include pattern support was provisional
- [08:24:37] <McNulty>
http://test.ciaranmcnulty.com/test-vcard.php <- second and subsequent @class="url" are ignored
- [08:26:26] <drewinthehead>
it knows your lying about Google. ;)
- [08:26:31] <McNulty>
hah
- [08:26:45] <McNulty>
I had a more complex case but I distilled it down to that for you ;-)
- [08:27:03] <McNulty>
I haven't tested it on other properties aside from URL
- [08:28:01] <drewinthehead>
that "/" url resolves nicely ... be impressed
- [08:28:18] <McNulty>
I was, I was ;-)
- [08:28:20] <drewinthehead>
(it impressed me)
- [08:31:47] <McNulty>
Anyhow, I'll be killing that page in a while, just wanted to let you know about the problem for the next version
- [08:32:05] <McNulty>
I do keep meaning to dig into hKit and see how it all works
- [08:32:15] <McNulty>
mcknut - you around?
- [08:32:24] <mcknut>
I am indeed
- [08:32:25] <SuperPhly>
where can i take a look at hKit?
- [08:32:56] <drewinthehead>
http://allinthehead.com/hkit/
- [08:32:59] <mcknut>
McNulty: you might want to try this, should work on your phone now: http://www.johnmckerrell.com/files/tailsexport-0.3.1-jmck2.xpi
- [08:33:23] <drewinthehead>
McNulty: i can't immediately see what's causing it, but i'll take a look
- [08:34:52] <trovster>
Tails for mobile.??
- [08:35:02] <McNulty>
mcknut - I was talking to a friend who used to debug vCard stuff at Nokia
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- [08:35:16] <McNulty>
Apparently the vCard spec specifies CRLF as the line ending
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- [08:36:31] <tantek>
drew, could you take a look at: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback#Proprietary_attribute
- [08:37:01] <trovster>
Anyone recommend any must-have bookmarklets?
- [08:37:26] <McNulty>
trovster - mcknut's added 'send via bluetooth' to Tails Export
- [08:37:32] <tantek>
trovster, my personal faves are here: http://favelets.com/
- [08:37:35] <trovster>
aha, cool.
- [08:37:51] <drewinthehead>
will do, tantek
- [08:39:11] <drewinthehead>
that test document is utter junk, it would seem
- [08:39:26] <drewinthehead>
i've no idea how that go through sanity filters.
- [08:39:29] <mcknut>
McNulty: ah, that's interesting (line endings), good to know as it should mean that it'll work in all apps/phones now
- [08:39:57] <McNulty>
I'm a bit concerned that Tails / X2V weren't using CRLF
- [08:40:42] <tantek>
McNulty r u sure that X2V is not?
- [08:41:57] <McNulty>
tantek - I should check. Last night my phone was not importing vcards from X2V and I'm only assuming it's for the same reason it didn't like the Tails ones
- [08:42:16] <trovster>
tantek: Cheers, I looked at those yesterday. But I have the webdev toolbar to do most of that
- [08:43:24] <mcknut>
I'm guessing firefox (i.e. tails) just uses native line endings, I had to add a few lines of JS to force CRLF
- [08:43:28] <McNulty>
Tantek - also, Tails doesn't like your surname it seems
- [08:44:14] <drewinthehead>
fixed, tantek
- [08:46:00] <tantek>
McNulty - then Tails is not UTF8 compliant ;)
- [08:46:43] <tantek>
thanks drew
- [08:47:17] <mcknut>
I'm afraid I have nfi how to make it so, but I imagine google will provide the answers as usual
- [08:47:38] <tantek>
drew, please feel free to update that wiki page accordingly since you have now fixed the problems.
- [08:48:18] <drewinthehead>
doing so :)
- [08:49:26] <mfbot>
[[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9825 * DrewMcLellan * (+190) Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing - Corrected errors on test page
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- [08:52:39] <McNulty>
er, ok, how do I find out what line endings a file's using? I'm having trouble interpreting it in hexdump
- [08:54:21] <Frederic>
depends, may be \n or \r\n
- [08:54:37] <mcknut>
if you see 0d and 0a, ir's \r\n
- [08:54:57] <mcknut>
might show as 000d and 000a
- [08:55:32] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists-proposals]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9826 * Ben Ward * (+16) Reformatted the now huge list with headings, so as to enable section level editing in MediaWiki (rather than having to edit the entire page to add a vote to a new proposal).
- [08:57:11] <McNulty>
lots of 0a, no 0d
- [08:57:34] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists-proposals]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9827 * Ben Ward * (+226) microformats-wg - Added vote against.
- [08:57:45] <mcknut>
where is that file from?
- [08:57:52] <McNulty>
X2V
- [08:58:04] <mcknut>
right, yeah I've got one here that looks similar
- [08:58:09] <McNulty>
Brian Suda's proxy
- [08:58:19] <mcknut>
from there too
- [08:59:15] <McNulty>
I'm unsure whether it'd be an artifact of the XSL template, or the application doing the converting
- [08:59:30] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists-proposals]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9828 * Ben Ward * (+13) microformats-tf -
- [08:59:33] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host81-156-231-136.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [08:59:33] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
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- [09:02:49] <jibot>
Cloud_ is Cloud
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- [09:08:54] <mcknut>
McNulty: I think it would be the app that decides, and probably uses native line endings by default
- [09:09:17] <mcknut>
I did wonder if the XSLT might be using <xsl:text>\n</xsl:text> type thing, but it isn't
- [09:09:25] <mcknut>
xsl:output encoding="UTF-8" indent="no" media-type="text/x-vcard" method="text"
- [09:09:41] <mcknut>
UTF-8 mention there is interesting..
- [09:11:09] <drewinthehead>
ok, here's a rel-tag thought ...
- [09:11:40] <drewinthehead>
on flickr, you can tag Upcoming.org events with upcoming:event=1234
- [09:11:56] <drewinthehead>
is it even possible to express that with rel-tag?
- [09:12:14] <drewinthehead>
both the : and the = aren't going to work in a URI
- [09:12:29] <drewinthehead>
they already have special meaning
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- [09:13:15] <cbarrett>
really?
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- [09:13:28] <drewinthehead>
i guess it'd need to be encoded
- [09:14:09] <trovster>
drewinthehead: rel tag takes the URL part... so the 'tag' itself is upcomingevent1234
- [09:14:29] <drewinthehead>
that's not the tag though, is it
- [09:14:43] <trovster>
I thought it was, but I'm probably wrong
- [09:14:46] <drewinthehead>
or is it?
- [09:14:47] <drewinthehead>
:)
- [09:15:01] <drewinthehead>
flickr crunches all the punctuation out
- [09:15:16] <drewinthehead>
so i'm not sure where that leaves us :)
- [09:15:33] <trovster>
http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Abstract see, the tag is for tech, not fish...
- [09:16:05] <McNulty>
tag uses the URL, yeah
- [09:16:30] <McNulty>
which has the effect of making all tags need to be valid URL fragments
- [09:17:19] <drewinthehead>
i guess that's the crux of it
- [09:17:44] <drewinthehead>
upcoming:event=1234 isn't a valid tag, but upcomingevent1234 is
- [09:17:55] <trovster>
Yup, and that's what the 'tag' is...
- [09:18:15] <McNulty>
and you can still put upcoming:event=1234 in the HTML of your page
- [09:21:36] <mfbot>
[[xoxo-sample-code]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-sample-code&diff=0&oldid=9829 * Kevin Marks * (+18231) PHP - add xoxolib and testxoxo examples -
- [09:22:09] <drewinthehead>
http://tools.microformatic.com/tag/upcomingevent117105
- [09:23:19] <mcknut>
McNulty: just had a look at the xslt being used by x2v on brian's site and looks like he's updated it to add charset information into the XSLT, I'll probably use his updated xslt in the next release then
- [09:23:41] <McNulty>
what's it doing for line endings?
- [09:23:45] <drewinthehead>
so i could now post an hReview about an event and tag it with the upcoming.org event ID
- [09:23:57] <mcknut>
just leaves is to the xslt processor as far as I can tell
- [09:24:01] <mcknut>
it
- [09:24:19] <McNulty>
is it text output?
- [09:24:43] <mcknut>
yes
- [09:25:32] <mcknut>
I'll try to grab him next time he's on and ask him about it
- [09:29:49] <McNulty>
It's not leaving it to the processor - the linebreaks are in the XSL
- [09:34:13] <mfbot>
[[xoxo-sample-code]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-sample-code&diff=0&oldid=9830 * Kevin Marks * (+28) PHP -
- [09:36:44] <mcknut>
actually, just looking at the XSL that's being used by the extension, it does actually appear to have \r\n line breaks, so looks like they're being replaced at some point by firefox
- [09:38:52] <McNulty>
hm
- [09:41:39] <McNulty>
The extension doesn't use X2V, does it?
- [09:46:44] <mcknut>
no, it uses an older version of the XSLT from there though
- [09:46:57] <McNulty>
can it just swap out?
- [09:47:10] <mcknut>
how do you mean?
- [09:47:22] <McNulty>
can you just drop in the newer XSLT
- [09:48:10] <mcknut>
ah right, yeah, that shouldn't be a problem, I'll do that for the new version, but the odd thing about the line endings is that the /existing/ file seems to be using \r\n
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- [09:51:04] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [09:51:29] <McNulty>
that is strange
- [09:52:20] <McNulty>
You can explicitly drop in CRLFs with <xsl:text> </xsl:text>
- [09:52:29] <McNulty>
but that'd probabyl be a fairly major edit
- [09:56:30] <mcknut>
heh, guess it might be worth doing to ensure compatibility though
- [10:06:15] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists-proposals]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9831 * AndyMabbett * (+689) Andy Mabbett - indenting, and adding responses
- [10:06:28] <KevinMarks>
http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/10/interesting-stats-on-programming.html
- [10:06:56] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists-proposals]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9832 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Andy Mabbett - fmt
- [10:07:32] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists-proposals]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9833 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Andy Mabbett - typo
- [10:07:54] <cbarrett>
KevinMarks: interesting. Although I'm wondering how many of those OSS projects there get abandonded rather quickly.
- [10:08:05] <KevinMarks>
I'm sure lots do
- [10:08:07] <cbarrett>
Yea
- [10:08:24] <cbarrett>
It's be interesting to see # of projects started and still maintained 6 months later.
- [10:08:27] <cbarrett>
or a year later.
- [10:08:57] <KevinMarks>
drewinthehead: escape the colon and equals, and it works
- [10:09:28] <KevinMarks>
the only char thats really tricky is '/' as if you escape that Apache cocks things up
- [10:09:36] <drewinthehead>
right, but that results in a hideous path
- [10:10:43] <mfbot>
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=9834 * Colin Barrett * (+48)
- [10:10:59] <mfbot>
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=9835 * Colin Barrett * (-6)
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- [10:15:58] <KevinMarks>
well, the tag part is usually not a real path
- [10:16:10] <KevinMarks>
it's done by a handler
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- [10:17:15] * tom-morris is now known as tommorris
- [10:20:29] <drewinthehead>
sure, but it's still not pretty :)
- [10:23:37] <KevinMarks>
well, overloading tags liek that isn't pretty either
- [10:34:38] <drewinthehead>
do you think that an inappropriate use?
- [10:39:41] <mfbot>
[[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=9836 * AndyMabbett * (+116) References - Zotero (Firefox extension)
- [10:42:04] <McNulty>
drewinthehead- I don't really like seeing lots of stuff encoded into a tag
- [10:44:12] <drewinthehead>
i'm not sure tagging something 'upcomingevent1234' is really encoding lots of stuff
- [10:44:59] <McNulty>
'this is an upcoming event'
- [10:45:05] <McNulty>
'this is upcoming event 1234'
- [10:45:43] <McNulty>
It's the 1234 that seems a bit weird because surely its a UID, whereas tagging normally indicates membership of a set
- [10:46:05] <drewinthehead>
that's the set
- [10:46:06] <drewinthehead>
http://technorati.com/tag/upcomingevent105545?show=photos
- [10:46:27] <McNulty>
aaaaah
- [10:46:32] <mfbot>
[[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=9837 * Ed Summers * (+99) pointed dublincore reference to the citation work that was recently approved
- [10:47:09] <McNulty>
how are there photos of an upcoming event? ;-)
- [10:47:21] * McNulty 's mind is blown
- [10:47:31] <drewinthehead>
because it was upcoming at the time :)
- [10:48:02] <drewinthehead>
would you tag something with 'todo' and then change that tag to 'havedone' later? maybe.
- [10:49:00] <drewinthehead>
is it that your adverse to having a tag that's tied to a particular service?
- [10:49:11] <drewinthehead>
(in this case, Upcoming.org)
- [10:49:39] <kapowaz>
what is this you're discussing? not using tags to represent identifiers?
- [10:49:58] <McNulty>
I thought the number was a UID for a single item, so I guess my objection's evaporated
- [10:52:30] <drewinthehead>
the UID is an event ID at Upcoming.org
- [10:52:49] <drewinthehead>
the idea being it enables the tagging of items related to an event
- [10:53:24] <drewinthehead>
i'm not sure how else you'd do that, other than have a central definition of the event as an hCalendar item somewhere - which is what this is
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- [10:56:04] <jibot>
Cloud is http://www.johnbreslin.com/
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- [11:38:52] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [12:09:11] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [12:26:12] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [12:35:16] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
- [12:35:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [12:37:31] <mcknut>
aha, hi briansuda
- [12:37:42] <briansuda>
morning/afternoon
- [12:38:41] <Frederic>
Hi Brian
- [12:38:59] <briansuda>
hello Frederic
- [12:39:23] <Frederic>
How's life ? (the Life of Brian, I'mm in a Monthy Python mood)
- [12:40:05] <briansuda>
pretty good, just reading through the last 24 hours of mail from the list
- [12:40:37] <Frederic>
Yeah, the list is pretty noisy
- [12:40:41] <mcknut>
actually, I don't think I have a question for you brian :) we were looking at the XSLT for hcards this morning because of charset and line ending problems, but I think I just need your latest stuff for the charset problems
- [12:41:29] <Frederic>
I sometimes regret that my English is too poor and strucks me to answer on the list because of this
- [12:41:33] <briansuda>
mcknut, i still have to glean the proper Charset from the HTTP headers
- [12:42:30] <briansuda>
frederic, sometimes if you can show by example, then the english doesn't matter too much - plus, if you don't try you'll never get better
- [12:42:37] <mcknut>
yeah, I'm wondering where I can get it from for tails export, I assume firefox will tell me the charset of the page
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- [12:43:24] <Frederic>
briansuda: I know that, I used to blog in plain English in order to improve
- [12:43:52] <mcknut>
I found though that the XSLT that tails export uses had \r\n line endings in, but firefox was generating just \n. I think McNulty mentioned embedding the \r\n in the XSLT using xsl:text, but it doesn't look nice
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- [12:46:38] <briansuda>
i am using #0A; i think, the HEX value of line break
- [12:47:55] <mcknut>
you mean you're putting that in the XSLT?
- [12:48:41] <briansuda>
for the vCard output yes, i think i declare a variable at the start and just reuse that, or <xsl:text>
- [12:49:12] <mcknut>
hmm.. I don't see that, I just get this: <xsl:variable name="nl"><xsl:text>
- [12:49:27] <mcknut>
(assuming that's the line you mean)
- [12:49:38] <mcknut>
wonder if it's been mangled during download
- [12:49:59] <briansuda>
nl, would be new-line and there should be a return between the start-end elements
- [12:50:37] <mcknut>
right, nope, not seeing that, forget how I downloaded it now, either wget or Safari
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- [12:50:46] <jibot>
Cloud_ is Cloud
- [12:51:11] <briansuda>
i might actually even use 'nl' any more? not sure.... it has been awhile.
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- [12:53:11] <mcknut>
hmm.. I can see it's in use, but I'm not sure what it's being used for right now, have to read through it properly some time
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- [12:55:51] <briansuda>
:) i wrote a lot of code that could probably be refactored, it might be used to escape ',' and ';' in the plain-text and remove new-lines
- [12:57:23] <mcknut>
ah right, yeah, that's the type of thing is seemed to be doing
- [12:58:23] <mcknut>
it
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- [13:26:27] <trovster>
http://uk.techcrunch.com/2006/10/25/world-wide-web-consortium-releases-first-version-of-grddl-specification/ !!
- [13:27:12] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
- [13:27:12] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
- [13:27:40] <SheepCow>
indeed trov
- [13:27:49] <McNulty>
afternoon
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- [13:50:16] <kapowaz>
I'm not sure where else I can ask this question, but is anyone here familiar with how you share del.icio.us links between users with the 'for:user' tag?
- [13:50:49] <briansuda>
you just add the for:<username> when you tag it
- [13:50:50] <kapowaz>
I want to have a delicious user who other delicious users can post links to and then that list of links is shown publically
- [13:51:01] <kapowaz>
aye I know that bit
- [13:51:19] <briansuda>
that's it, then the user has to accept those for: links
- [13:51:21] <kapowaz>
but the url http://del.icio.us/for/username can only be accessed by username when they're logged in
- [13:51:39] <kapowaz>
aye, so the user then has to log in and manually add those links
- [13:51:46] <kapowaz>
is there any way of that happening automatically?
- [13:52:01] <briansuda>
not sure.
- [13:52:27] <McNulty>
hey brian, did mcknut talk to you about X2V and line breaks?
- [13:52:29] <briansuda>
you can always try ma.gnolia, they have "groups"
- [13:52:43] <briansuda>
McNulty, he did abit
- [13:52:50] <briansuda>
what exactly is the issue?
- [13:53:16] <McNulty>
I think it's outputting with \n line endings
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- [13:53:27] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [13:53:28] <McNulty>
vCard, specifically. I didn't check the calendar stuff
- [13:54:18] <briansuda>
and what is the issue?
- [13:54:45] <briansuda>
i was telling him that i think i am using #x0A for newlines
- [13:54:49] <McNulty>
Well we were having problems importing the vCards into Nokia phones because of it
- [13:55:10] <McNulty>
I spoke to a chap I know who works for Symbian and he confirmed it was probably the line endings
- [13:55:25] <McNulty>
and pointed out the vCard RFC specifies 0A0D line endings.
- [13:56:16] <briansuda>
ok, is that on each line, or as a seperator between VCARD:END and VCARD:BEGIN
- [13:56:48] <McNulty>
in the spec or in the X2V output?
- [13:57:22] <briansuda>
in the spec, do i need 0A0D for each line? or just at the end of the vcard
- [13:57:26] <McNulty>
the spec seems to imply CRLF is the line ending
- [13:57:32] <McNulty>
from the bit about declarations:
- [13:57:43] <McNulty>
"they MUST be terminated with the backslash escape sequence "\n" or "\N", instead of the normal newline character sequence CRLF."
- [13:57:47] <briansuda>
hm, do you have a nokia phone ready and handy?
- [13:58:08] <McNulty>
and yeah, "contentline = group "."] name *(";" param ) ":" value CRLF "
- [13:58:20] <McNulty>
erm, not one I can send files to easily (this machine doesn't have bluetooth)
- [13:59:08] <briansuda>
ok, i can do a quick find and replace on the 0A to 0A0D and upload it to my site.... then you can check it at will
- [13:59:30] <McNulty>
excellent, thanks brian
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- [14:00:36] <McNulty>
Hm I can probably try typing a url into my phone browser
- [14:01:01] <briansuda>
:) that will be a long one! i'd make a tinyURL for a vCard link first
- [14:01:17] <McNulty>
hah yes
- [14:01:23] <McNulty>
good plan
- [14:02:09] <McNulty>
How do you control the newlines in the XSL? do you explicitly use  ?
- [14:02:31] <briansuda>
in HEX yes, &x0A;
- [14:02:44] <McNulty>
ah cool
- [14:03:20] <mcknut>
hi guys, am reading this, but also busy :)
- [14:03:56] <briansuda>
ok, it is all uploads, i'll let you confirm the Nokia import, and i'll confirm it didn't break my Desktop Address book
- [14:04:28] <McNulty>
the spec seems pretty strict about the CRLF thing, but I imagine quite a few apps accept either / output the wrong one
- [14:05:13] <trovster>
.hreview .item {} /* product, business, event, person, place, website */ -- would .item {} be 'movie' for example?
- [14:05:33] <briansuda>
trovster, i'd say event
- [14:05:57] <briansuda>
McNulty, it seems to still work, but now i get an extra line in my vCard output
- [14:06:12] <McNulty>
an extra line at the end?
- [14:06:18] <trovster>
erm, I wouldn't put movie as an event. Watching a film in my living room on my own, an event! nah
- [14:06:38] <briansuda>
between each property... i'll have a play with it
- [14:06:58] <McNulty>
hm... that could just be whatever text editor you're using
- [14:07:03] <briansuda>
well, if you are watching it at home, then it is a DVD, and it would be a product?
- [14:07:26] <briansuda>
McNulty, i think it is, i am using TextMate on OSX, so i only need one char for line breaks
- [14:07:36] <trovster>
I'm going to distinguish between my reviews of a film in a theatre and on dvd...
- [14:08:35] <McNulty>
awesome, going to that URL crashes the phone's browser
- [14:08:36] <trovster>
product, business, event, person, place, website, url -- so I'm limited to these?
- [14:08:53] <McNulty>
either that or the contacts app is making the browser crash
- [14:09:10] <McNulty>
I'll wait until I get home and check it
- [14:09:15] <briansuda>
hm... try downloading it to a local machine and inspecting the file
- [14:10:18] <McNulty>
If you're on a mac, have you seen mcknut's modified Tails Export?
- [14:10:42] <briansuda>
no i haven't
- [14:10:57] <McNulty>
He's made export work properly, and added a 'send via bluetooth' button
- [14:11:17] <McNulty>
which is why I found this import problem
- [14:11:56] <briansuda>
it might have found the prob, it is &x0D;&x0A;, 13 then 10....
- [14:12:03] <McNulty>
VI does seem to see lots of linebreaks
- [14:12:07] <McNulty>
aaah LFCR
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- [14:15:52] <briansuda>
ok, that works much better for me, give it a try when you get a chance.
- [14:16:39] <kapowaz>
cleartype in IE7 sucks
- [14:16:45] <kapowaz>
just thought I'd throw that in there.
- [14:17:01] <McNulty>
sucks how? I thought it was quite good.
- [14:17:32] * briansuda has to run, will be back later
- [14:17:36] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) Quit ()
- [14:17:39] <McNulty>
briansuda - my phone opened that URL fine and found a vCard with all my stuff in ;-)
- [14:17:48] <McNulty>
ah, damn
- [14:18:00] <kapowaz>
it doesn't anti-alias large text well
- [14:18:05] <kapowaz>
I am just about to upload a demonstration
- [14:18:07] <McNulty>
mcknut - when you get a chance, you should grab Brian's new X2V for your extension
- [14:18:18] <McNulty>
kapowaz - are you on an LCD
- [14:18:20] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/2510 does this seem like a reasonable basic stylesheet?
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- [14:19:24] <McNulty>
trovster - that's a very neat idea
- [14:20:41] <trovster>
Cheers.
- [14:21:00] <kapowaz>
yes I am
- [14:21:10] <kapowaz>
but even if I wasn't the effect would be the same
- [14:21:19] <kapowaz>
I shall show all. 5 minutes.
- [14:21:25] <McNulty>
well cleartype only works on LCDs, for a start...
- [14:21:25] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@65.103.232.203) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [14:21:35] <trovster>
mcknut: I've been using it for a while - see the bottom of this - http://www.sussexsportmc.co.uk/css/screen.css
- [14:21:38] <McNulty>
trovster - how well supported are attribute based selectors/
- [14:21:53] <trovster>
Not very, at all.
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- [14:24:36] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [14:28:44] <kapowaz>
http://www.kapowaz.net/uncleartype.html
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- [14:29:42] <McNulty>
kapowaz - you can't blow it up, it completely destroys the sub-pixel antialiasing
- [14:30:08] <McNulty>
It's only fair to compare the two at 100%, surely
- [14:30:13] <kapowaz>
I am aware of how the subpixel antialiasing works
- [14:30:16] <kapowaz>
but compare them anyway
- [14:30:27] <McNulty>
can ypu post them at 100%?
- [14:30:30] <kapowaz>
compare how many steps of different colours there are between the two at the same point of the letter
- [14:30:46] <kapowaz>
even when you consider the sub-pixel antialiasing it should be more than a single pixel
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- [14:30:50] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [14:30:58] <kapowaz>
Apple's equivalent mode for TFTs does it better
- [14:31:18] <McNulty>
look at the left edge of the exclamation mark, there's much more subtle stepping on the Cleartype version ;-)
- [14:32:48] <McNulty>
but yeah Apple's TFT antialiasing is far better
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- [14:34:13] <kapowaz>
the reason the left edge looks better is because it's going vertically, not horizontally
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- [14:34:37] <kapowaz>
cleartype works by simulating greater *horizontal* resolution, since that's the direction the RGB subelements are laid out
- [14:35:54] <McNulty>
Yes, so the way the curve changes moves right is better represented in the cleartype one in the way it gets less red...
- [14:36:54] <kapowaz>
well perhaps, although I am inclined to think their method for calculating intermediary pixels is flawed
- [14:37:06] <kapowaz>
the end result as far as it looks to me is that it's too jaggy
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- [14:37:47] <kapowaz>
that S looks awful compared to the old method, imho
- [14:44:24] <McNulty>
Fair enough.
- [14:59:19] <mcknut>
McNulty: hey, just read back, so brian got the CRLFs into the template, that right?
- [14:59:49] <McNulty>
yeah
- [15:00:01] <McNulty>
and the service on suda.co.uk works
- [15:00:08] <mcknut>
ok, cool, will have a play later
- [15:00:31] <mcknut>
I really want to get kml support in too, not that I know anywhere that has geocoded vcards
- [15:00:46] <McNulty>
There are places that have geocoded hCals...
- [15:00:56] <McNulty>
I think there's some on the examples pages.
- [15:02:53] <mcknut>
ah right, cool
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- [15:08:45] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
- [15:08:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
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- [15:15:22] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9838 * XyMox12 * (+161) Examples in the wild -
- [15:16:25] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
- [15:16:25] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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- [15:17:10] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
- [15:18:06] <tantek>
Welcome to Planet Earth, XyMox12, I hope you enjoy your stay, and be careful not to scare the natives.
- [15:19:36] <imajes>
heya tantek
- [15:19:45] <tantek>
hey imajes
- [15:19:51] <imajes>
how goes
- [15:20:15] <tantek>
time to go for a skate
- [15:20:26] <imajes>
tantek: btw,
- [15:20:32] <imajes>
i'll be in the bay in a few weeks
- [15:20:38] <imajes>
i'm hoping to stop by the offic
- [15:20:42] <imajes>
say hi
- [15:20:43] <imajes>
etc
- [15:20:53] * tantek reminds imajes that channel is logged/archived. ;)
- [15:21:09] <imajes>
yes......
- [15:21:11] <imajes>
and..... ? :)
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- [15:31:51] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [15:37:13] <briansuda_>
hm... http://www.thinkvitamin.com/reviews/dev/using-microformats-by-brian-suda/
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- [15:44:26] <McNulty>
briansuda - not an hReview though?
- [15:44:47] <McNulty>
oh wait it is, excellent
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- [15:49:57] <jibot>
Cloud is http://www.johnbreslin.com/
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- [16:05:29] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9839 * XyMox12 * (+154) Examples in the wild -
- [16:05:42] <briansuda_>
drewinthehead, it looks like some of your requests for Microformatted content have made into Upcoming.org
- [16:05:55] <briansuda_>
i just ran your rel-lint on http://upcoming.org/event/117839/ and got good values
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- [16:06:40] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [16:07:06] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9840 * XyMox12 * (+2) Examples in the wild -
- [16:08:04] <kapowaz>
gasp
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- [16:08:24] <jibot>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
- [16:08:57] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=9841 * CiaranMc * (+232) Nokia series 60 address book -
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- [16:50:01] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [17:20:10] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=9842 * AndyMabbett * (+14) Microsoft Outlook - clarifications
- [17:20:51] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=9843 * Tantek * (+0) typo
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- [18:05:06] * Whafro (n=alter@65.107.196.194.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:05:07] <jibot>
Whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
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- [18:18:11] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [18:18:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [18:22:14] <mfbot>
[[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9844 * AndyMabbett * (+25) Birds - update to reflect recently changed mark-up
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- [18:22:55] <mfbot>
[[species-examples-regrouped]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples-regrouped&diff=0&oldid=9845 * AndyMabbett * (+25) West Midland Bird Club - update to reflect recently changed mark-up
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- [19:16:49] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [19:29:28] <mfbot>
[[rest/opacity]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/opacity&diff=0&oldid=9846 * MikeSchinkel * (+14) Final Comment By Ernie - included Ernie's full name
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- [19:31:35] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [19:32:38] <mcknut>
anyone know if it's possible to make upcoming.org use a different timezone than PST?
- [19:32:52] <mcknut>
realise it's not really a microformats question, but it screws up my exporting
- [19:33:41] <kingryan>
in their hcalendar or icalendar?
- [19:34:11] <mcknut>
hmm.. in their hcalendar at least
- [19:34:22] <mcknut>
but I don't find any mention of timezones generally
- [19:35:09] <tantek>
ironically, we need the same fix in eventful.com also - where I believe all events are UTC/Z by default
- [19:35:34] <tantek>
rather, the time is given in "local" time for the event, but it is mislabeled as being UTC/Z
- [19:36:27] <mcknut>
heh
- [19:37:22] <KevinMarks>
isn't it PDT this week , and PST next week
- [19:37:45] <kingryan>
yes
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- [19:40:09] <drewinthehead>
kingryan: the Bots URL above should be http://microformats.org/wiki/irc#Bots
- [19:40:28] <drewinthehead>
(sorry - in the room topic)
- [19:40:31] <kingryan>
ick, yeah
- [19:40:38] <kingryan>
I think you can change it
- [19:40:57] <drewinthehead>
don't seem to be able to ... but could be rubbish software
- [19:41:04] <kingryan>
ok
- [19:41:11] <kingryan>
I don't remember how we have things set
- [19:41:24] * kingryan changes topic to 'add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people || Bots: http://microformats.org/wiki/irc#Bots'
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- [19:41:52] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [19:42:01] <drewinthehead>
great :)
- [19:42:04] <drewinthehead>
hey Phae
- [19:42:10] <Phae>
yay
- [19:42:12] <Phae>
hello
- [19:42:16] <tantek>
hello Phae
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- [19:54:02] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [19:56:24] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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- [21:04:25] <jibot>
Whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
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- [21:13:01] <kingryan>
anyone here know of tools for validating JSON structures?
- [21:17:16] <drewinthehead>
eval() :)
- [21:17:24] <kingryan>
not what I mean
- [21:17:28] * bewest concurs
- [21:17:37] <drewinthehead>
you need debugging?
- [21:17:38] <kingryan>
that will only tell me if it's javascript parsable
- [21:17:49] <bewest>
you want a schema language for json structures?
- [21:17:57] <kingryan>
I want to say "there should be a hash like this, and this element should be a list"
- [21:18:03] <bewest>
you might attempt json->XML->validation->json
- [21:18:05] <kingryan>
yeah
- [21:18:22] <bewest>
jsonatron?
- [21:18:38] <kingryan>
the only thing I've found is http://www.kuwata-lab.com/kwalify
- [21:18:47] <kingryan>
json example: http://www.kuwata-lab.com/kwalify/users-guide.02.html#tips-json
- [21:20:30] <bewest>
kingryan: when do you want it to be validated?
- [21:20:34] <bewest>
when and where?
- [21:20:42] <kingryan>
use case #1:
- [21:20:59] <kingryan>
I'm writing hreview test cases and want feedback on "does this even make sense?"
- [21:21:38] <kingryan>
#2: I'm parsing µf's and converting them to JSON (for potential internal use at trati). I want to be able to test my software and this seems a reasonable approach.
- [21:23:39] <kingryan>
seem like reasonable use cases?
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- [21:23:53] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [21:26:24] <jibot>
trel1023 is Terrell Russell of http://claimID.com and http://weblog.terrellrussell.com
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- [21:27:42] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
- [21:27:42] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [21:28:05] <kingryan>
anyway, bewest, drewinthehead, I just sent a note about json schemas to uf-dev
- [21:32:25] <bewest>
kingryan: I meant when and where from a programmatic point of view
- [21:32:46] <bewest>
is this in an XHR response and you want to make sure it's sane before using it?
- [21:33:18] <bewest>
if so, this kwalify approach won't work, as it seems it's in java
- [21:33:21] <kingryan>
not XHR
- [21:33:30] <kingryan>
it's java and ruby
- [21:33:56] <kingryan>
and I'm not talking about running it in production, I'm talking about using it in software engineering for testing my code
- [21:34:24] <kingryan>
so when I write a 'to_json' method, I can test it against the expected structure
- [21:36:27] <mfbot>
[[rest/opacity]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/opacity&diff=0&oldid=9847 * DrErnie * (+119) edited final comment, added See Also
- [21:36:30] <bewest>
I see
- [21:37:22] <bewest>
hmmm
- [21:37:41] <bewest>
so XML output is less than satisfactory because it's not the same target as production
- [21:37:58] <kingryan>
actually, I just prefer JSON
- [21:38:16] <kingryan>
and I'm already using JSON
- [21:38:47] <kingryan>
I'd like to be able to programatically assure myself that the JSON I produce is in the structure I expect (and my co-workers expect :D)
- [21:41:23] <bewest>
yeah
- [21:41:42] <bewest>
that is, without creating a unique test case for each new example?
- [21:45:24] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) Quit ()
- [21:46:31] <kingryan>
right
- [21:46:36] <kingryan>
I have some of those already
- [21:46:49] <kingryan>
but there's also use case #1, which is the authoring
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- [21:47:59] <bewest>
hmm.... from a peer-review perspective?
- [21:48:13] <bewest>
"does the suggested expected structure look sane?"
- [21:48:18] * DanC noodles on using grammars to check json structures
- [21:48:25] <kingryan>
right, bewest
- [21:48:42] <kingryan>
"is this a reasonable representation of a valid hFoo?"
- [21:49:03] <bewest>
right
- [21:49:08] <DanC>
yeah, I think I'd start with LL(1) grammars, i.e. the ones you can check with a top-down parser.
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- [21:49:25] <DanC>
I'd prolly write the grammar in javascript.
- [21:49:53] * bewest also thinks it'd be better/easier in javascript
- [21:50:21] <kingryan>
DanC: did you look at http://www.kuwata-lab.com/kwalify/users-guide.02.html#tips-json ?
- [21:50:26] <kingryan>
as an example?
- [21:51:01] * bewest blinks
- [21:51:03] <bewest>
wow
- [21:51:06] <bewest>
I did something like this
- [21:51:07] <DanC>
e.g. if an hFoo structure is a sequence of (int, string, int, string, ...) then ... --
- [21:51:25] * bewest tries to find it
- [21:51:54] <bewest>
kingryan: http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js
- [21:52:11] <kingryan>
awesome, bewest
- [21:52:12] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
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- [21:52:27] <kingryan>
did you write code for validation?
- [21:52:41] <bewest>
no...
- [21:52:58] <bewest>
I shared it here and no one seemed impressed at the time
- [21:53:02] <bewest>
so I moved on
- [21:53:09] <DanC>
I did no, kingryan . that seems like a pretty reasonable approach
- [21:53:33] <kingryan>
well, bewest I have concrete use cases now :D
- [21:53:39] <bewest>
nice
- [21:53:49] <mfbot>
[[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9848 * AndyMabbett * (+161) Quantitative evidence - another 7,000
- [21:53:54] <kingryan>
DanC: you're refereing to Kwalify?
- [21:54:00] <DanC>
ues
- [21:54:02] <DanC>
yes
- [21:54:09] <bewest>
I wanted to use it to automatically generate parsers of microformats, and then validate that it was a good parsing
- [21:54:16] * DanC starts to think about deriving http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js by machine from the XMDP profile; better stop...
- [21:54:35] <kingryan>
yeah, stop, not everything's in the xmdp
- [21:54:47] <kingryan>
but we could always link to such a schema *from* the xmdp
- [21:55:17] <DanC>
ah. yes, a link is good
- [21:55:41] * tantek offhandedly mentions http://w3.org/ - note big bold red headline in middle of home page ;)
- [21:56:15] <mfbot>
[[species-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9849 * AndyMabbett * (+6) Quantitative evidence - embolden
- [21:57:05] <DanC>
yup, tantek, it's official now
- [21:58:37] <DanC>
has anybody around here looked at the stuff above openID? the profile stuff? considered how it relates to hCard?
- [21:58:48] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
- [21:59:40] <kingryan>
DanC: actually, some openID people emailed me about it, but I couldn't get my head around their question, so nothing's happened there
- [21:59:59] * kingryan doesn't know how openid works
- [22:00:37] <kingryan>
I should find that email and ask them to query the discuss list
- [22:01:01] * drewinthehead has been thinking about hCard + openID
- [22:01:01] <DanC>
note the list of properties in http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-properties-list-1_0-01.html ... does "honorific prefix" sound familiar?
- [22:01:31] <kingryan>
vaguely :D
- [22:01:53] <DanC>
hmm... http://openid.net/schema/media/image/64x64 is 404
- [22:01:54] * bewest has been thinking about connecting openID to "meat space", potentially using information contained in hcards
- [22:02:01] <kingryan>
the similarity doesn't extend very much further
- [22:02:18] <drewinthehead>
without getting into the nitty gritty, openID takes a URL as a login ... that service then vouches for your identity
- [22:02:28] <kingryan>
drewinthehead: I've got that much
- [22:02:31] <bewest>
*phone rings* "Press 1 to authorize ____."
- [22:02:36] <kingryan>
I don't know how the protocol works, though
- [22:02:45] <drewinthehead>
there's opportunity to present an hCard on that resulting page that would be useful in the creation of a new account
- [22:02:51] <DanC>
it's a bunch of redirection and cookie magic. not too crazy.
- [22:03:21] <kingryan>
ok, drewinthehead, but the openID folk have created their own xml schema instead?
- [22:03:34] <drewinthehead>
then they need slapping
- [22:03:42] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:04:02] <kingryan>
I mean, that's what http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-properties-list-1_0-01.html is, right?
- [22:04:34] <DanC>
I read "<xrd:Type> child element of the <xrd:Service> element in the XRDS discovery document." in http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-exchange-1_0-01.html and I wanna barf. they didn't stick within XHTML, but they didn't go all the way to RDF. argh!
- [22:05:05] <DanC>
I just want to maintain my homepage.
- [22:05:18] <drewinthehead>
yeah, that's all dumb
- [22:05:23] <kingryan>
well, we might still be able to suggest the simpler alternative
- [22:05:25] <drewinthehead>
we should slap them up sharp
- [22:05:37] <DanC>
gently :)
- [22:05:40] * kingryan nominates drewinthehead for some blog-slapping
- [22:06:12] <drewinthehead>
ok, i'll see if i can nab willison tomorrow and pick his brain - he's been doing a lot of openID implementation
- [22:06:21] <mfbot>
[[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9850 * AndyMabbett * (+78) Quantitative evidence - Wikibooks Dichotomous Key
- [22:06:31] <drewinthehead>
the threat of lunch should work
- [22:06:42] <DanC>
this isn't exactly blog-slapping, but it is a blog item... http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/97 2006-03-17
- [22:06:56] <DanC>
note that MS infocard has a similar list of properties.
- [22:07:10] <DanC>
my notes continue in http://www.w3.org/2006/03dc-aus-lga/swauth ...
- [22:08:48] <DanC>
the microsoft infocard guys at least had the good sense to use html
- [22:09:13] <DanC>
404 @ http://schemas.microsoft.com/ws/2005/05/identity/claims/givenname though
- [22:10:22] <DanC>
kingryan, please do learn how openid works. If I were less sleep-deprived, I'd walk you thru it. I really want the uf wiki to grok openid. The simile wiki does...
- [22:10:48] <DanC>
http://simile.mit.edu/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:Userlogin&returnto=Main_Page
- [22:11:36] <tantek>
DanC, any idea why infocard invented its own schema rather than just re-using vCard/hCard?
- [22:12:07] <DanC>
people don't seem to need a reason to not do their homework
- [22:12:38] <DanC>
I sorta had an opportunity to ask, at that workshop, but didn't jump on it.
- [22:14:08] <DanC>
quick walkthru: when I go to the simile wiki login, I enter my openid (i.e. the URL of my homepage)...
- [22:14:45] <DanC>
... then the simile wiki looks at my homepage and finds an openid link to the verisign pip deely, and redirects me to the pip deely, as if to say "who is this guy; do you vouch for him?"
- [22:15:08] <DanC>
then I login with the pip deely, and it redirects me back to simile and says "yeah, he's who he says he is."
- [22:15:19] <kingryan>
they talk via cookies?
- [22:15:42] <DanC>
yeah; nonces and such go across as cookies. or url query params. or something.
- [22:16:15] <kingryan>
ok
- [22:17:18] <bewest>
there's nothing that says what mechanism the provider has to use to authenticate you, correct?
- [22:17:20] <DanC>
it's actually a combination of the two. I forget the details, but it's sorta obvious if you study it. the code that is. the protocol spec doesn't give the "ah hah!" factor. norm walsh did something in ruby lately.
- [22:17:30] <DanC>
right, bewest.
- [22:17:43] <bewest>
eg the provider could call you up on your mobile phone...
- [22:17:46] <DanC>
right
- [22:17:55] * DanC is off to take son to a soccer game in a minute
- [22:18:12] <DanC>
ndw on openid and ruby http://norman.walsh.name/2006/10/20/identity
- [22:18:24] <kingryan>
I definitely need to read up on it more, esp. since we're using it at work now (http://technorati.com/weblog/2006/10/144.html)
- [22:18:24] * bewest imagines authenticating via performing the hokey pokey in front of a camera
- [22:19:14] <DanC>
jibot, bewest?
- [22:19:27] * DanC can't remember the players without a scorecard
- [22:19:47] <kingryan>
?bewest
- [22:20:15] <kingryan>
?whois bewest
- [22:20:15] <jibot>
bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
- [22:20:35] <kingryan>
?learn bewest is Ben West
- [22:20:35] <jibot>
bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com and Ben West
- [22:20:49] <DanC>
hasta
- [22:21:23] <bewest>
?learn bewest and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
- [22:21:23] <jibot>
I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
- [22:21:35] <bewest>
?learn bewest is and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
- [22:21:36] <jibot>
bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com and Ben West and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
- [22:21:57] <bewest>
hmm
- [22:22:11] * remi (n=remi@dsl-157-172.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
- [22:22:11] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [22:22:21] <kingryan>
?whois kingryan
- [22:22:22] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king and is in San Francisco, CA and is another one o' them Technorati people
- [22:22:40] <kingryan>
?learn kingryan is blogs at http://theryanking.com/
- [22:22:41] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king and is in San Francisco, CA and is another one o' them Technorati people and blogs at http://theryanking.com/
- [22:23:22] <bewest>
?forget bewest
- [22:23:23] <jibot>
I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
- [22:23:28] <bewest>
?forgetme
- [22:23:28] <jibot>
I have expunged bewest from my mind
- [22:24:25] <bewest>
?learn bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
- [22:24:25] <jibot>
bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
- [22:29:06] <kingryan>
anyone know if there's a way to ask mflogbot for a link to 'right now' in the logs?
- [22:32:25] <bewest>
mflogbot: help
- [22:32:57] <bewest>
?karma
- [22:32:57] <jibot>
Karma Dump available at: http://an9.org/~jibot
- [22:35:49] <bewest>
is Mike Schinkel in here?
- [22:36:25] <kingryan>
I don't see him on http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people
- [22:38:50] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
- [22:43:43] * danja (n=danja@host202-218-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
- [22:47:12] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- [22:48:46] * SvperPhly (i=superphl@ip24-250-181-133.bc.dl.cox.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:50:52] * kwijibo (n=keithale@87.113.69.24.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:55:35] <tantek>
indeed - do we need an FAQ about invisible data?
- [22:55:54] <tantek>
as in, please don't bother wasting time? or at least wasting microformats time?
- [22:58:42] <bewest>
I was going to point him the direction of some editorial tools
- [22:59:00] <bewest>
I'm not sure how microformats would help search engines with editorial content
- [22:59:06] <bewest>
eg which sites are aliases of others
- [22:59:41] <bewest>
that's what DMOZ is supposed to be for
- [23:01:30] <tantek>
i'm not sure search engines need that help
- [23:01:35] <tantek>
they seem to be doing fine on their own
- [23:01:39] <tantek>
and they're not asking for the help
- [23:01:49] <tantek>
so it's not even clear they would take the help
- [23:02:01] <tantek>
more theoretical example arguing - sigh
- [23:02:36] <bewest>
well, anyway, microformats are about content problems
- [23:02:49] <bewest>
the aliasing of sites is out-of-band with respect to content on the page
- [23:04:40] <kingryan>
tantek: hadn't some search engines and content producers asked about doing something like rel-canonical?
- [23:04:43] <kingryan>
spam summit?
- [23:05:08] * Phae (n=Steven@dsl-62-3-104-101.zen.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [23:05:08] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [23:05:33] * SuperPhly (i=superphl@ip24-250-181-133.bc.dl.cox.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [23:06:11] <tantek>
yeah, there were rumblings about rel-canonical
- [23:06:22] * Phae (n=Steven@dsl-62-3-104-101.zen.co.uk) Quit (Client Quit)
- [23:06:25] <tantek>
i invited the folks there to participate in researching a microformat for it etc.
- [23:06:38] <tantek>
and the lack of activity IMHO reflects lack of sufficient interest
- [23:06:41] <tantek>
which is perfectly fine
- [23:06:46] <kingryan>
yeah
- [23:06:52] <tantek>
because we don't want/need an explosion of microformats
- [23:07:11] * tantek keeps wondering why so many people seem to assume a desire for LOTS of microformats.
- [23:07:28] <kingryan>
they just want to build stuff and put their name on it
- [23:07:49] <kingryan>
there's status and authority that comes with creating something that others use
- [23:08:21] * SheepCow bows to the gods of microformats
- [23:08:24] <SheepCow>
we're not worthy
- [23:08:34] <SheepCow>
</wayne's world clip>
- [23:08:35] <SheepCow>
:~)
- [23:08:43] * SheepCow is now known as boneill
- [23:09:12] <kingryan>
boneill: I don't think its that big of a deal, it's just that people get tempted by it
- [23:09:25] <kingryan>
but the authors are soon forgotten by everyone except the insiders
- [23:09:52] <bewest>
tantek: some of it is a lack of shared meaning: I became aware recently that "publishing behaviour" didn't have as much mindshare as I thought it did
- [23:15:07] <kingryan>
I'm heading out. later.
- [23:15:08] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [23:18:49] <tantek>
bewest: publishing behavior - people posting content on publicly accessible HTTP URLs
- [23:18:56] <tantek>
that should work
- [23:19:03] <tantek>
for our purposes
- [23:19:23] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:19:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [23:20:23] <bewest>
tantek: isn't it "what they publish?" and "how they mark it up?"
- [23:20:51] <bewest>
with some consideration made to "how it's made available", although publicly accessible HTTP URL's may be enough for that
- [23:22:20] <tantek>
yes, what they publish is key
- [23:22:34] <tantek>
how they mark it up can be good for documenting behaviors but not necessary
- [23:22:38] <tantek>
what is more important is
- [23:22:45] <tantek>
when people publishing information of type x
- [23:22:54] <tantek>
what properties/values do they publish along with it?
- [23:23:06] <tantek>
those must be documented as part of the research of examples
- [23:23:43] <tantek>
because that implied schema informs the conceptual set of properties that should go into the brainstorming proposals
- [23:23:51] <tantek>
we can do better at clarifying that
- [23:24:21] <tantek>
because a few folks seem to be jumping from, here are a bunch of examples to here is a proposal with a list of properties that *I* (they) think are important (with no connection to the properties implied/used by the examples)
- [23:24:33] * bewest nods
- [23:26:03] <bewest>
I found the plant proposal interesting
- [23:26:17] <bewest>
it seemed centered around the regimine...
- [23:26:21] <bewest>
which is a bit like a recipe
- [23:26:32] <bewest>
perhaps an ordered list would work
- [23:26:49] * bewest wonders if there is a need for publishing regimines
- [23:27:24] <bewest>
gah
- [23:27:35] <bewest>
s/regimine/regimen
- [23:27:49] <tantek>
agreed - i wonder that too
- [23:34:18] * kwijibo (n=keithale@87.113.69.24.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [23:34:59] * boneill curses his triplestore
- [23:39:53] * tantek screenshots W3C home page to Flickr: http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/279427600/
- [23:41:38] <boneill>
hehe
- [23:41:47] <boneill>
in mac ie no less
- [23:42:06] <tantek>
but of course - nowhere else can i easily flavor switch the chrome to match/accent a particular color ;)
- [23:42:17] <boneill>
lol
- [23:43:56] <bewest>
chrome.css ??
- [23:44:10] <KevinMarks>
no, resedit
- [23:44:27] <tantek>
no
- [23:44:46] <tantek>
menubar > View > Browser Color > Ruby
- [23:44:54] <tantek>
that's what i mean by *easily*
- [23:45:29] <KevinMarks>
heh
- [23:46:24] * bewest takes a shot in the dark
- [23:46:49] <bewest>
anyone have any idea why RB_GETBKCOLOR would start failing in IE7?
- [23:47:33] * bewest suspects it has something to do with the window hierarchy
- [23:59:28] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
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