IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-10-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:02:44] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  2. [00:08:33] <tommorris> Is there any reason why putting dtstart and dtend data on a SPAN element is a problem?
  3. [00:11:21] * remi (n=remi@dsl-154-39.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
  4. [00:11:21] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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  21. [01:28:03] <mfbot> [[spread-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=spread-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9819 * Tantek * (+305) added intro/scoping text and see also links
  22. [01:30:04] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=9820 * Tantek * (+183) added see also links, intro text linking to [[spread-microformats]]
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  35. [03:31:38] <mfbot> [[citation-formats-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-formats-fr&diff=0&oldid=9821 * Nullepart * (+11) Types citation BibTeX -
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  39. [03:48:00] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  41. [05:04:22] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists-proposals]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9822 * Lachlan Hunt * (+18) Corrected my votes
  42. [05:05:01] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  43. [05:10:41] <Frederic> morning
  44. [05:15:40] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("back soon, no doubt")
  45. [05:18:58] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists-proposals]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9823 * Lachlan Hunt * (+134) Added -wg and -tf proposals
  46. [05:36:44] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  47. [05:36:45] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  48. [05:36:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  50. [07:01:15] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  51. [07:10:22] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists-proposals]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9824 * Tantek * (+1495) updated votes, noted microformats principle of simplicity/minimalism
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  54. [07:38:53] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  60. [08:01:08] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  61. [08:01:08] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  62. [08:01:43] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-b566e57b8d67c3ab) has joined #microformats
  63. [08:01:43] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  65. [08:21:49] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  66. [08:21:49] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  67. [08:23:03] <McNulty> morning
  68. [08:23:20] <McNulty> drewinthehead - what's the procedure for hKit bug reports / nitpicking?
  69. [08:23:34] <drewinthehead> morning
  70. [08:23:41] <drewinthehead> erm ... just badger me
  71. [08:24:07] <McNulty> OK... consider yourself badgered. I've found an a.include quirk and I know the include pattern support was provisional
  72. [08:24:37] <McNulty> http://test.ciaranmcnulty.com/test-vcard.php <- second and subsequent @class="url" are ignored
  73. [08:26:26] <drewinthehead> it knows your lying about Google. ;)
  74. [08:26:31] <McNulty> hah
  75. [08:26:45] <McNulty> I had a more complex case but I distilled it down to that for you ;-)
  76. [08:27:03] <McNulty> I haven't tested it on other properties aside from URL
  77. [08:28:01] <drewinthehead> that "/" url resolves nicely ... be impressed
  78. [08:28:18] <McNulty> I was, I was ;-)
  79. [08:28:20] <drewinthehead> (it impressed me)
  80. [08:31:47] <McNulty> Anyhow, I'll be killing that page in a while, just wanted to let you know about the problem for the next version
  81. [08:32:05] <McNulty> I do keep meaning to dig into hKit and see how it all works
  82. [08:32:15] <McNulty> mcknut - you around?
  83. [08:32:24] <mcknut> I am indeed
  84. [08:32:25] <SuperPhly> where can i take a look at hKit?
  85. [08:32:56] <drewinthehead> http://allinthehead.com/hkit/
  86. [08:32:59] <mcknut> McNulty: you might want to try this, should work on your phone now: http://www.johnmckerrell.com/files/tailsexport-0.3.1-jmck2.xpi
  87. [08:33:23] <drewinthehead> McNulty: i can't immediately see what's causing it, but i'll take a look
  88. [08:34:52] <trovster> Tails for mobile.??
  89. [08:35:02] <McNulty> mcknut - I was talking to a friend who used to debug vCard stuff at Nokia
  90. [08:35:08] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  91. [08:35:16] <McNulty> Apparently the vCard spec specifies CRLF as the line ending
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  94. [08:36:31] <tantek> drew, could you take a look at: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback#Proprietary_attribute
  95. [08:37:01] <trovster> Anyone recommend any must-have bookmarklets?
  96. [08:37:26] <McNulty> trovster - mcknut's added 'send via bluetooth' to Tails Export
  97. [08:37:32] <tantek> trovster, my personal faves are here: http://favelets.com/
  98. [08:37:35] <trovster> aha, cool.
  99. [08:37:51] <drewinthehead> will do, tantek
  100. [08:39:11] <drewinthehead> that test document is utter junk, it would seem
  101. [08:39:26] <drewinthehead> i've no idea how that go through sanity filters.
  102. [08:39:29] <mcknut> McNulty: ah, that's interesting (line endings), good to know as it should mean that it'll work in all apps/phones now
  103. [08:39:57] <McNulty> I'm a bit concerned that Tails / X2V weren't using CRLF
  104. [08:40:42] <tantek> McNulty r u sure that X2V is not?
  105. [08:41:57] <McNulty> tantek - I should check. Last night my phone was not importing vcards from X2V and I'm only assuming it's for the same reason it didn't like the Tails ones
  106. [08:42:16] <trovster> tantek: Cheers, I looked at those yesterday. But I have the webdev toolbar to do most of that
  107. [08:43:24] <mcknut> I'm guessing firefox (i.e. tails) just uses native line endings, I had to add a few lines of JS to force CRLF
  108. [08:43:28] <McNulty> Tantek - also, Tails doesn't like your surname it seems
  109. [08:44:14] <drewinthehead> fixed, tantek
  110. [08:46:00] <tantek> McNulty - then Tails is not UTF8 compliant ;)
  111. [08:46:43] <tantek> thanks drew
  112. [08:47:17] <mcknut> I'm afraid I have nfi how to make it so, but I imagine google will provide the answers as usual
  113. [08:47:38] <tantek> drew, please feel free to update that wiki page accordingly since you have now fixed the problems.
  114. [08:48:18] <drewinthehead> doing so :)
  115. [08:49:26] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9825 * DrewMcLellan * (+190) Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing - Corrected errors on test page
  116. [08:50:59] * kwijibo (n=keithale@87.113.84.56.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  117. [08:52:39] <McNulty> er, ok, how do I find out what line endings a file's using? I'm having trouble interpreting it in hexdump
  118. [08:54:21] <Frederic> depends, may be \n or \r\n
  119. [08:54:37] <mcknut> if you see 0d and 0a, ir's \r\n
  120. [08:54:57] <mcknut> might show as 000d and 000a
  121. [08:55:32] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists-proposals]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9826 * Ben Ward * (+16) Reformatted the now huge list with headings, so as to enable section level editing in MediaWiki (rather than having to edit the entire page to add a vote to a new proposal).
  122. [08:57:11] <McNulty> lots of 0a, no 0d
  123. [08:57:34] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists-proposals]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9827 * Ben Ward * (+226) microformats-wg - Added vote against.
  124. [08:57:45] <mcknut> where is that file from?
  125. [08:57:52] <McNulty> X2V
  126. [08:58:04] <mcknut> right, yeah I've got one here that looks similar
  127. [08:58:09] <McNulty> Brian Suda's proxy
  128. [08:58:19] <mcknut> from there too
  129. [08:59:15] <McNulty> I'm unsure whether it'd be an artifact of the XSL template, or the application doing the converting
  130. [08:59:30] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists-proposals]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9828 * Ben Ward * (+13) microformats-tf -
  131. [08:59:33] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host81-156-231-136.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  132. [08:59:33] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
  133. [09:02:49] * Cloud_ (n=Cloud@deri-wg1-2.nuigalway.ie) has joined #microformats
  134. [09:02:49] <jibot> Cloud_ is Cloud
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  136. [09:08:54] <mcknut> McNulty: I think it would be the app that decides, and probably uses native line endings by default
  137. [09:09:17] <mcknut> I did wonder if the XSLT might be using <xsl:text>\n</xsl:text> type thing, but it isn't
  138. [09:09:25] <mcknut> xsl:output encoding="UTF-8" indent="no" media-type="text/x-vcard" method="text"
  139. [09:09:41] <mcknut> UTF-8 mention there is interesting..
  140. [09:11:09] <drewinthehead> ok, here's a rel-tag thought ...
  141. [09:11:40] <drewinthehead> on flickr, you can tag Upcoming.org events with upcoming:event=1234
  142. [09:11:56] <drewinthehead> is it even possible to express that with rel-tag?
  143. [09:12:14] <drewinthehead> both the : and the = aren't going to work in a URI
  144. [09:12:29] <drewinthehead> they already have special meaning
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  147. [09:13:15] <cbarrett> really?
  148. [09:13:26] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) has joined #microformats
  149. [09:13:28] <drewinthehead> i guess it'd need to be encoded
  150. [09:14:09] <trovster> drewinthehead: rel tag takes the URL part... so the 'tag' itself is upcomingevent1234
  151. [09:14:29] <drewinthehead> that's not the tag though, is it
  152. [09:14:43] <trovster> I thought it was, but I'm probably wrong
  153. [09:14:46] <drewinthehead> or is it?
  154. [09:14:47] <drewinthehead> :)
  155. [09:15:01] <drewinthehead> flickr crunches all the punctuation out
  156. [09:15:16] <drewinthehead> so i'm not sure where that leaves us :)
  157. [09:15:33] <trovster> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Abstract see, the tag is for tech, not fish...
  158. [09:16:05] <McNulty> tag uses the URL, yeah
  159. [09:16:30] <McNulty> which has the effect of making all tags need to be valid URL fragments
  160. [09:17:19] <drewinthehead> i guess that's the crux of it
  161. [09:17:44] <drewinthehead> upcoming:event=1234 isn't a valid tag, but upcomingevent1234 is
  162. [09:17:55] <trovster> Yup, and that's what the 'tag' is...
  163. [09:18:15] <McNulty> and you can still put upcoming:event=1234 in the HTML of your page
  164. [09:21:36] <mfbot> [[xoxo-sample-code]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-sample-code&diff=0&oldid=9829 * Kevin Marks * (+18231) PHP - add xoxolib and testxoxo examples -
  165. [09:22:09] <drewinthehead> http://tools.microformatic.com/tag/upcomingevent117105
  166. [09:23:19] <mcknut> McNulty: just had a look at the xslt being used by x2v on brian's site and looks like he's updated it to add charset information into the XSLT, I'll probably use his updated xslt in the next release then
  167. [09:23:41] <McNulty> what's it doing for line endings?
  168. [09:23:45] <drewinthehead> so i could now post an hReview about an event and tag it with the upcoming.org event ID
  169. [09:23:57] <mcknut> just leaves is to the xslt processor as far as I can tell
  170. [09:24:01] <mcknut> it
  171. [09:24:19] <McNulty> is it text output?
  172. [09:24:43] <mcknut> yes
  173. [09:25:32] <mcknut> I'll try to grab him next time he's on and ask him about it
  174. [09:29:49] <McNulty> It's not leaving it to the processor - the linebreaks are in the XSL
  175. [09:34:13] <mfbot> [[xoxo-sample-code]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-sample-code&diff=0&oldid=9830 * Kevin Marks * (+28) PHP -
  176. [09:36:44] <mcknut> actually, just looking at the XSL that's being used by the extension, it does actually appear to have \r\n line breaks, so looks like they're being replaced at some point by firefox
  177. [09:38:52] <McNulty> hm
  178. [09:41:39] <McNulty> The extension doesn't use X2V, does it?
  179. [09:46:44] <mcknut> no, it uses an older version of the XSLT from there though
  180. [09:46:57] <McNulty> can it just swap out?
  181. [09:47:10] <mcknut> how do you mean?
  182. [09:47:22] <McNulty> can you just drop in the newer XSLT
  183. [09:48:10] <mcknut> ah right, yeah, that shouldn't be a problem, I'll do that for the new version, but the odd thing about the line endings is that the /existing/ file seems to be using \r\n
  184. [09:51:04] * bergie (n=bergie@195.156.89.200) has joined #microformats
  185. [09:51:04] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  186. [09:51:29] <McNulty> that is strange
  187. [09:52:20] <McNulty> You can explicitly drop in CRLFs with <xsl:text>&#10;&#13;</xsl:text>
  188. [09:52:29] <McNulty> but that'd probabyl be a fairly major edit
  189. [09:56:30] <mcknut> heh, guess it might be worth doing to ensure compatibility though
  190. [10:06:15] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists-proposals]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9831 * AndyMabbett * (+689) Andy Mabbett - indenting, and adding responses
  191. [10:06:28] <KevinMarks> http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/10/interesting-stats-on-programming.html
  192. [10:06:56] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists-proposals]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9832 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Andy Mabbett - fmt
  193. [10:07:32] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists-proposals]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-proposals&diff=0&oldid=9833 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Andy Mabbett - typo
  194. [10:07:54] <cbarrett> KevinMarks: interesting. Although I'm wondering how many of those OSS projects there get abandonded rather quickly.
  195. [10:08:05] <KevinMarks> I'm sure lots do
  196. [10:08:07] <cbarrett> Yea
  197. [10:08:24] <cbarrett> It's be interesting to see # of projects started and still maintained 6 months later.
  198. [10:08:27] <cbarrett> or a year later.
  199. [10:08:57] <KevinMarks> drewinthehead: escape the colon and equals, and it works
  200. [10:09:28] <KevinMarks> the only char thats really tricky is '/' as if you escape that Apache cocks things up
  201. [10:09:36] <drewinthehead> right, but that results in a hideous path
  202. [10:10:43] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=9834 * Colin Barrett * (+48)
  203. [10:10:59] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=9835 * Colin Barrett * (-6)
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  207. [10:15:58] <KevinMarks> well, the tag part is usually not a real path
  208. [10:16:10] <KevinMarks> it's done by a handler
  209. [10:16:35] * Cloud_ (n=Cloud@deri-wg1-2.nuigalway.ie) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  210. [10:17:15] * tom-morris is now known as tommorris
  211. [10:20:29] <drewinthehead> sure, but it's still not pretty :)
  212. [10:23:37] <KevinMarks> well, overloading tags liek that isn't pretty either
  213. [10:34:38] <drewinthehead> do you think that an inappropriate use?
  214. [10:39:41] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=9836 * AndyMabbett * (+116) References - Zotero (Firefox extension)
  215. [10:42:04] <McNulty> drewinthehead- I don't really like seeing lots of stuff encoded into a tag
  216. [10:44:12] <drewinthehead> i'm not sure tagging something 'upcomingevent1234' is really encoding lots of stuff
  217. [10:44:59] <McNulty> 'this is an upcoming event'
  218. [10:45:05] <McNulty> 'this is upcoming event 1234'
  219. [10:45:43] <McNulty> It's the 1234 that seems a bit weird because surely its a UID, whereas tagging normally indicates membership of a set
  220. [10:46:05] <drewinthehead> that's the set
  221. [10:46:06] <drewinthehead> http://technorati.com/tag/upcomingevent105545?show=photos
  222. [10:46:27] <McNulty> aaaaah
  223. [10:46:32] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=9837 * Ed Summers * (+99) pointed dublincore reference to the citation work that was recently approved
  224. [10:47:09] <McNulty> how are there photos of an upcoming event? ;-)
  225. [10:47:21] * McNulty 's mind is blown
  226. [10:47:31] <drewinthehead> because it was upcoming at the time :)
  227. [10:48:02] <drewinthehead> would you tag something with 'todo' and then change that tag to 'havedone' later? maybe.
  228. [10:49:00] <drewinthehead> is it that your adverse to having a tag that's tied to a particular service?
  229. [10:49:11] <drewinthehead> (in this case, Upcoming.org)
  230. [10:49:39] <kapowaz> what is this you're discussing? not using tags to represent identifiers?
  231. [10:49:58] <McNulty> I thought the number was a UID for a single item, so I guess my objection's evaporated
  232. [10:52:30] <drewinthehead> the UID is an event ID at Upcoming.org
  233. [10:52:49] <drewinthehead> the idea being it enables the tagging of items related to an event
  234. [10:53:24] <drewinthehead> i'm not sure how else you'd do that, other than have a central definition of the event as an hCalendar item somewhere - which is what this is
  235. [10:56:04] * Cloud (n=Cloud@deri-dmz2.nuigalway.ie) has joined #microformats
  236. [10:56:04] <jibot> Cloud is http://www.johnbreslin.com/
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  244. [11:38:52] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  246. [12:09:11] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/session) has joined #microformats
  247. [12:09:11] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  248. [12:26:11] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable128.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  249. [12:26:12] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  251. [12:35:16] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) has joined #microformats
  252. [12:35:16] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  253. [12:35:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  254. [12:37:31] <mcknut> aha, hi briansuda
  255. [12:37:42] <briansuda> morning/afternoon
  256. [12:38:41] <Frederic> Hi Brian
  257. [12:38:59] <briansuda> hello Frederic
  258. [12:39:23] <Frederic> How's life ? (the Life of Brian, I'mm in a Monthy Python mood)
  259. [12:40:05] <briansuda> pretty good, just reading through the last 24 hours of mail from the list
  260. [12:40:37] <Frederic> Yeah, the list is pretty noisy
  261. [12:40:41] <mcknut> actually, I don't think I have a question for you brian :) we were looking at the XSLT for hcards this morning because of charset and line ending problems, but I think I just need your latest stuff for the charset problems
  262. [12:41:29] <Frederic> I sometimes regret that my English is too poor and strucks me to answer on the list because of this
  263. [12:41:33] <briansuda> mcknut, i still have to glean the proper Charset from the HTTP headers
  264. [12:42:30] <briansuda> frederic, sometimes if you can show by example, then the english doesn't matter too much - plus, if you don't try you'll never get better
  265. [12:42:37] <mcknut> yeah, I'm wondering where I can get it from for tails export, I assume firefox will tell me the charset of the page
  266. [12:43:05] * kwijibo (n=keithale@host86-144-160-142.range86-144.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  267. [12:43:24] <Frederic> briansuda: I know that, I used to blog in plain English in order to improve
  268. [12:43:52] <mcknut> I found though that the XSLT that tails export uses had \r\n line endings in, but firefox was generating just \n. I think McNulty mentioned embedding the \r\n in the XSLT using xsl:text, but it doesn't look nice
  269. [12:45:49] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@c-67-186-222-175.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  270. [12:46:38] <briansuda> i am using #0A; i think, the HEX value of line break
  271. [12:47:55] <mcknut> you mean you're putting that in the XSLT?
  272. [12:48:41] <briansuda> for the vCard output yes, i think i declare a variable at the start and just reuse that, or <xsl:text>
  273. [12:49:12] <mcknut> hmm.. I don't see that, I just get this: <xsl:variable name="nl"><xsl:text>
  274. [12:49:27] <mcknut> (assuming that's the line you mean)
  275. [12:49:38] <mcknut> wonder if it's been mangled during download
  276. [12:49:59] <briansuda> nl, would be new-line and there should be a return between the start-end elements
  277. [12:50:37] <mcknut> right, nope, not seeing that, forget how I downloaded it now, either wget or Safari
  278. [12:50:46] * Cloud_ (n=Cloud@deri-wg1-2.nuigalway.ie) has joined #microformats
  279. [12:50:46] <jibot> Cloud_ is Cloud
  280. [12:51:11] <briansuda> i might actually even use 'nl' any more? not sure.... it has been awhile.
  281. [12:52:37] * shigeta_ (n=shigeta@124x32x114x226.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  282. [12:53:11] <mcknut> hmm.. I can see it's in use, but I'm not sure what it's being used for right now, have to read through it properly some time
  283. [12:54:52] * Cloud (n=Cloud@deri-dmz2.nuigalway.ie) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  287. [12:55:51] <briansuda> :) i wrote a lot of code that could probably be refactored, it might be used to escape ',' and ';' in the plain-text and remove new-lines
  288. [12:57:23] <mcknut> ah right, yeah, that's the type of thing is seemed to be doing
  289. [12:58:23] <mcknut> it
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  296. [13:26:27] <trovster> http://uk.techcrunch.com/2006/10/25/world-wide-web-consortium-releases-first-version-of-grddl-specification/ !!
  297. [13:27:12] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  298. [13:27:12] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  299. [13:27:40] <SheepCow> indeed trov
  300. [13:27:49] <McNulty> afternoon
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  307. [13:50:16] <kapowaz> I'm not sure where else I can ask this question, but is anyone here familiar with how you share del.icio.us links between users with the 'for:user' tag?
  308. [13:50:49] <briansuda> you just add the for:<username> when you tag it
  309. [13:50:50] <kapowaz> I want to have a delicious user who other delicious users can post links to and then that list of links is shown publically
  310. [13:51:01] <kapowaz> aye I know that bit
  311. [13:51:19] <briansuda> that's it, then the user has to accept those for: links
  312. [13:51:21] <kapowaz> but the url http://del.icio.us/for/username can only be accessed by username when they're logged in
  313. [13:51:39] <kapowaz> aye, so the user then has to log in and manually add those links
  314. [13:51:46] <kapowaz> is there any way of that happening automatically?
  315. [13:52:01] <briansuda> not sure.
  316. [13:52:27] <McNulty> hey brian, did mcknut talk to you about X2V and line breaks?
  317. [13:52:29] <briansuda> you can always try ma.gnolia, they have "groups"
  318. [13:52:43] <briansuda> McNulty, he did abit
  319. [13:52:50] <briansuda> what exactly is the issue?
  320. [13:53:16] <McNulty> I think it's outputting with \n line endings
  321. [13:53:26] * bergie (n=bergie@195.156.89.119) has joined #microformats
  322. [13:53:27] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  323. [13:53:28] <McNulty> vCard, specifically. I didn't check the calendar stuff
  324. [13:54:18] <briansuda> and what is the issue?
  325. [13:54:45] <briansuda> i was telling him that i think i am using #x0A for newlines
  326. [13:54:49] <McNulty> Well we were having problems importing the vCards into Nokia phones because of it
  327. [13:55:10] <McNulty> I spoke to a chap I know who works for Symbian and he confirmed it was probably the line endings
  328. [13:55:25] <McNulty> and pointed out the vCard RFC specifies 0A0D line endings.
  329. [13:56:16] <briansuda> ok, is that on each line, or as a seperator between VCARD:END and VCARD:BEGIN
  330. [13:56:48] <McNulty> in the spec or in the X2V output?
  331. [13:57:22] <briansuda> in the spec, do i need 0A0D for each line? or just at the end of the vcard
  332. [13:57:26] <McNulty> the spec seems to imply CRLF is the line ending
  333. [13:57:32] <McNulty> from the bit about declarations:
  334. [13:57:43] <McNulty> "they MUST be terminated with the backslash escape sequence "\n" or "\N", instead of the normal newline character sequence CRLF."
  335. [13:57:47] <briansuda> hm, do you have a nokia phone ready and handy?
  336. [13:58:08] <McNulty> and yeah, "contentline = group "."] name *(";" param ) ":" value CRLF "
  337. [13:58:20] <McNulty> erm, not one I can send files to easily (this machine doesn't have bluetooth)
  338. [13:59:08] <briansuda> ok, i can do a quick find and replace on the 0A to 0A0D and upload it to my site.... then you can check it at will
  339. [13:59:30] <McNulty> excellent, thanks brian
  340. [13:59:46] * _psy_[away] (n=_psychic@c-67-186-222-175.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) Quit ()
  341. [14:00:36] <McNulty> Hm I can probably try typing a url into my phone browser
  342. [14:01:01] <briansuda> :) that will be a long one! i'd make a tinyURL for a vCard link first
  343. [14:01:17] <McNulty> hah yes
  344. [14:01:23] <McNulty> good plan
  345. [14:02:09] <McNulty> How do you control the newlines in the XSL? do you explicitly use &#11;&#13; ?
  346. [14:02:31] <briansuda> in HEX yes, &x0A;
  347. [14:02:44] <McNulty> ah cool
  348. [14:03:20] <mcknut> hi guys, am reading this, but also busy :)
  349. [14:03:56] <briansuda> ok, it is all uploads, i'll let you confirm the Nokia import, and i'll confirm it didn't break my Desktop Address book
  350. [14:04:28] <McNulty> the spec seems pretty strict about the CRLF thing, but I imagine quite a few apps accept either / output the wrong one
  351. [14:05:13] <trovster> .hreview .item {} /* product, business, event, person, place, website */ -- would .item {} be 'movie' for example?
  352. [14:05:33] <briansuda> trovster, i'd say event
  353. [14:05:57] <briansuda> McNulty, it seems to still work, but now i get an extra line in my vCard output
  354. [14:06:12] <McNulty> an extra line at the end?
  355. [14:06:18] <trovster> erm, I wouldn't put movie as an event. Watching a film in my living room on my own, an event! nah
  356. [14:06:38] <briansuda> between each property... i'll have a play with it
  357. [14:06:58] <McNulty> hm... that could just be whatever text editor you're using
  358. [14:07:03] <briansuda> well, if you are watching it at home, then it is a DVD, and it would be a product?
  359. [14:07:26] <briansuda> McNulty, i think it is, i am using TextMate on OSX, so i only need one char for line breaks
  360. [14:07:36] <trovster> I'm going to distinguish between my reviews of a film in a theatre and on dvd...
  361. [14:08:35] <McNulty> awesome, going to that URL crashes the phone's browser
  362. [14:08:36] <trovster> product, business, event, person, place, website, url -- so I'm limited to these?
  363. [14:08:53] <McNulty> either that or the contacts app is making the browser crash
  364. [14:09:10] <McNulty> I'll wait until I get home and check it
  365. [14:09:15] <briansuda> hm... try downloading it to a local machine and inspecting the file
  366. [14:10:18] <McNulty> If you're on a mac, have you seen mcknut's modified Tails Export?
  367. [14:10:42] <briansuda> no i haven't
  368. [14:10:57] <McNulty> He's made export work properly, and added a 'send via bluetooth' button
  369. [14:11:17] <McNulty> which is why I found this import problem
  370. [14:11:56] <briansuda> it might have found the prob, it is &x0D;&x0A;, 13 then 10....
  371. [14:12:03] <McNulty> VI does seem to see lots of linebreaks
  372. [14:12:07] <McNulty> aaah LFCR
  373. [14:13:47] * bergie (n=bergie@195.156.89.119) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  374. [14:15:52] <briansuda> ok, that works much better for me, give it a try when you get a chance.
  375. [14:16:39] <kapowaz> cleartype in IE7 sucks
  376. [14:16:45] <kapowaz> just thought I'd throw that in there.
  377. [14:17:01] <McNulty> sucks how? I thought it was quite good.
  378. [14:17:32] * briansuda has to run, will be back later
  379. [14:17:36] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) Quit ()
  380. [14:17:39] <McNulty> briansuda - my phone opened that URL fine and found a vCard with all my stuff in ;-)
  381. [14:17:48] <McNulty> ah, damn
  382. [14:18:00] <kapowaz> it doesn't anti-alias large text well
  383. [14:18:05] <kapowaz> I am just about to upload a demonstration
  384. [14:18:07] <McNulty> mcknut - when you get a chance, you should grab Brian's new X2V for your extension
  385. [14:18:18] <McNulty> kapowaz - are you on an LCD
  386. [14:18:20] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/2510 does this seem like a reasonable basic stylesheet?
  387. [14:19:07] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@65.103.232.203) has joined #microformats
  388. [14:19:24] <McNulty> trovster - that's a very neat idea
  389. [14:20:41] <trovster> Cheers.
  390. [14:21:00] <kapowaz> yes I am
  391. [14:21:10] <kapowaz> but even if I wasn't the effect would be the same
  392. [14:21:19] <kapowaz> I shall show all. 5 minutes.
  393. [14:21:25] <McNulty> well cleartype only works on LCDs, for a start...
  394. [14:21:25] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@65.103.232.203) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  395. [14:21:35] <trovster> mcknut: I've been using it for a while - see the bottom of this - http://www.sussexsportmc.co.uk/css/screen.css
  396. [14:21:38] <McNulty> trovster - how well supported are attribute based selectors/
  397. [14:21:53] <trovster> Not very, at all.
  398. [14:24:36] * bergie (n=bergie@pc-y9.wlan.inet.fi) has joined #microformats
  399. [14:24:36] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  400. [14:28:44] <kapowaz> http://www.kapowaz.net/uncleartype.html
  401. [14:29:25] * plaes (n=plaes@ns.store20.com) Quit ("leaving")
  402. [14:29:42] <McNulty> kapowaz - you can't blow it up, it completely destroys the sub-pixel antialiasing
  403. [14:30:08] <McNulty> It's only fair to compare the two at 100%, surely
  404. [14:30:13] <kapowaz> I am aware of how the subpixel antialiasing works
  405. [14:30:16] <kapowaz> but compare them anyway
  406. [14:30:27] <McNulty> can ypu post them at 100%?
  407. [14:30:30] <kapowaz> compare how many steps of different colours there are between the two at the same point of the letter
  408. [14:30:46] <kapowaz> even when you consider the sub-pixel antialiasing it should be more than a single pixel
  409. [14:30:50] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-f23370ce39b4d4a3) has joined #microformats
  410. [14:30:50] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  411. [14:30:58] <kapowaz> Apple's equivalent mode for TFTs does it better
  412. [14:31:18] <McNulty> look at the left edge of the exclamation mark, there's much more subtle stepping on the Cleartype version ;-)
  413. [14:32:48] <McNulty> but yeah Apple's TFT antialiasing is far better
  414. [14:33:15] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  415. [14:34:13] <kapowaz> the reason the left edge looks better is because it's going vertically, not horizontally
  416. [14:34:23] * blueNine (n=tigger@host213-123-130-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  417. [14:34:37] <kapowaz> cleartype works by simulating greater *horizontal* resolution, since that's the direction the RGB subelements are laid out
  418. [14:35:54] <McNulty> Yes, so the way the curve changes moves right is better represented in the cleartype one in the way it gets less red...
  419. [14:36:54] <kapowaz> well perhaps, although I am inclined to think their method for calculating intermediary pixels is flawed
  420. [14:37:06] <kapowaz> the end result as far as it looks to me is that it's too jaggy
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  422. [14:37:47] <kapowaz> that S looks awful compared to the old method, imho
  423. [14:44:24] <McNulty> Fair enough.
  424. [14:59:19] <mcknut> McNulty: hey, just read back, so brian got the CRLFs into the template, that right?
  425. [14:59:49] <McNulty> yeah
  426. [15:00:01] <McNulty> and the service on suda.co.uk works
  427. [15:00:08] <mcknut> ok, cool, will have a play later
  428. [15:00:31] <mcknut> I really want to get kml support in too, not that I know anywhere that has geocoded vcards
  429. [15:00:46] <McNulty> There are places that have geocoded hCals...
  430. [15:00:56] <McNulty> I think there's some on the examples pages.
  431. [15:02:53] <mcknut> ah right, cool
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  437. [15:08:45] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  440. [15:15:22] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9838 * XyMox12 * (+161) Examples in the wild -
  441. [15:16:25] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  442. [15:16:25] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  443. [15:16:28] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
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  445. [15:17:10] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  446. [15:18:06] <tantek> Welcome to Planet Earth, XyMox12, I hope you enjoy your stay, and be careful not to scare the natives.
  447. [15:19:36] <imajes> heya tantek
  448. [15:19:45] <tantek> hey imajes
  449. [15:19:51] <imajes> how goes
  450. [15:20:15] <tantek> time to go for a skate
  451. [15:20:26] <imajes> tantek: btw,
  452. [15:20:32] <imajes> i'll be in the bay in a few weeks
  453. [15:20:38] <imajes> i'm hoping to stop by the offic
  454. [15:20:42] <imajes> say hi
  455. [15:20:43] <imajes> etc
  456. [15:20:53] * tantek reminds imajes that channel is logged/archived. ;)
  457. [15:21:09] <imajes> yes......
  458. [15:21:11] <imajes> and..... ? :)
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  466. [15:31:51] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  467. [15:37:13] <briansuda_> hm... http://www.thinkvitamin.com/reviews/dev/using-microformats-by-brian-suda/
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  473. [15:44:26] <McNulty> briansuda - not an hReview though?
  474. [15:44:47] <McNulty> oh wait it is, excellent
  475. [15:49:57] * Cloud (n=Cloud@deri-wg1-2.nuigalway.ie) has joined #microformats
  476. [15:49:57] <jibot> Cloud is http://www.johnbreslin.com/
  477. [16:04:58] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  478. [16:05:29] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9839 * XyMox12 * (+154) Examples in the wild -
  479. [16:05:42] <briansuda_> drewinthehead, it looks like some of your requests for Microformatted content have made into Upcoming.org
  480. [16:05:55] <briansuda_> i just ran your rel-lint on http://upcoming.org/event/117839/ and got good values
  481. [16:06:40] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  482. [16:06:40] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  483. [16:06:45] * briansuda_ is now known as briansuda
  484. [16:06:47] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  485. [16:07:06] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9840 * XyMox12 * (+2) Examples in the wild -
  486. [16:08:04] <kapowaz> gasp
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  488. [16:08:24] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  489. [16:08:57] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=9841 * CiaranMc * (+232) Nokia series 60 address book -
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  497. [16:50:01] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  498. [16:50:07] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
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  501. [17:20:10] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=9842 * AndyMabbett * (+14) Microsoft Outlook - clarifications
  502. [17:20:51] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=9843 * Tantek * (+0) typo
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  515. [18:05:06] * Whafro (n=alter@65.107.196.194.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
  516. [18:05:07] <jibot> Whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
  517. [18:05:42] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
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  521. [18:18:11] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  522. [18:18:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  523. [18:22:14] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9844 * AndyMabbett * (+25) Birds - update to reflect recently changed mark-up
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  525. [18:22:55] <mfbot> [[species-examples-regrouped]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples-regrouped&diff=0&oldid=9845 * AndyMabbett * (+25) West Midland Bird Club - update to reflect recently changed mark-up
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  532. [19:16:49] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  533. [19:23:46] * bear is now known as bear_afk
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  537. [19:29:28] <mfbot> [[rest/opacity]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/opacity&diff=0&oldid=9846 * MikeSchinkel * (+14) Final Comment By Ernie - included Ernie's full name
  538. [19:30:34] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  539. [19:31:35] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  540. [19:31:35] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  541. [19:32:38] <mcknut> anyone know if it's possible to make upcoming.org use a different timezone than PST?
  542. [19:32:52] <mcknut> realise it's not really a microformats question, but it screws up my exporting
  543. [19:33:41] <kingryan> in their hcalendar or icalendar?
  544. [19:34:11] <mcknut> hmm.. in their hcalendar at least
  545. [19:34:22] <mcknut> but I don't find any mention of timezones generally
  546. [19:35:09] <tantek> ironically, we need the same fix in eventful.com also - where I believe all events are UTC/Z by default
  547. [19:35:34] <tantek> rather, the time is given in "local" time for the event, but it is mislabeled as being UTC/Z
  548. [19:36:27] <mcknut> heh
  549. [19:37:22] <KevinMarks> isn't it PDT this week , and PST next week
  550. [19:37:45] <kingryan> yes
  551. [19:39:30] * danja (n=danja@host90-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  552. [19:40:09] <drewinthehead> kingryan: the Bots URL above should be http://microformats.org/wiki/irc#Bots
  553. [19:40:28] <drewinthehead> (sorry - in the room topic)
  554. [19:40:31] <kingryan> ick, yeah
  555. [19:40:38] <kingryan> I think you can change it
  556. [19:40:57] <drewinthehead> don't seem to be able to ... but could be rubbish software
  557. [19:41:04] <kingryan> ok
  558. [19:41:11] <kingryan> I don't remember how we have things set
  559. [19:41:24] * kingryan changes topic to 'add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people || Bots: http://microformats.org/wiki/irc#Bots'
  560. [19:41:52] * Phae (n=Steven@dsl-62-3-104-101.zen.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  561. [19:41:52] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  562. [19:42:01] <drewinthehead> great :)
  563. [19:42:04] <drewinthehead> hey Phae
  564. [19:42:10] <Phae> yay
  565. [19:42:12] <Phae> hello
  566. [19:42:16] <tantek> hello Phae
  567. [19:43:11] * kingryan is now known as kingryan|food
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  571. [19:54:02] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  572. [19:56:24] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  573. [19:56:24] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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  583. [21:04:25] <jibot> Whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
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  587. [21:13:01] <kingryan> anyone here know of tools for validating JSON structures?
  588. [21:17:16] <drewinthehead> eval() :)
  589. [21:17:24] <kingryan> not what I mean
  590. [21:17:28] * bewest concurs
  591. [21:17:37] <drewinthehead> you need debugging?
  592. [21:17:38] <kingryan> that will only tell me if it's javascript parsable
  593. [21:17:49] <bewest> you want a schema language for json structures?
  594. [21:17:57] <kingryan> I want to say "there should be a hash like this, and this element should be a list"
  595. [21:18:03] <bewest> you might attempt json->XML->validation->json
  596. [21:18:05] <kingryan> yeah
  597. [21:18:22] <bewest> jsonatron?
  598. [21:18:38] <kingryan> the only thing I've found is http://www.kuwata-lab.com/kwalify
  599. [21:18:47] <kingryan> json example: http://www.kuwata-lab.com/kwalify/users-guide.02.html#tips-json
  600. [21:20:30] <bewest> kingryan: when do you want it to be validated?
  601. [21:20:34] <bewest> when and where?
  602. [21:20:42] <kingryan> use case #1:
  603. [21:20:59] <kingryan> I'm writing hreview test cases and want feedback on "does this even make sense?"
  604. [21:21:38] <kingryan> #2: I'm parsing µf's and converting them to JSON (for potential internal use at trati). I want to be able to test my software and this seems a reasonable approach.
  605. [21:23:39] <kingryan> seem like reasonable use cases?
  606. [21:23:52] * danja (n=danja@host202-218-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  607. [21:23:53] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  609. [21:26:24] <jibot> trel1023 is Terrell Russell of http://claimID.com and http://weblog.terrellrussell.com
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  611. [21:27:42] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) has joined #microformats
  612. [21:27:42] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  613. [21:27:42] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  614. [21:28:05] <kingryan> anyway, bewest, drewinthehead, I just sent a note about json schemas to uf-dev
  615. [21:32:25] <bewest> kingryan: I meant when and where from a programmatic point of view
  616. [21:32:46] <bewest> is this in an XHR response and you want to make sure it's sane before using it?
  617. [21:33:18] <bewest> if so, this kwalify approach won't work, as it seems it's in java
  618. [21:33:21] <kingryan> not XHR
  619. [21:33:30] <kingryan> it's java and ruby
  620. [21:33:56] <kingryan> and I'm not talking about running it in production, I'm talking about using it in software engineering for testing my code
  621. [21:34:24] <kingryan> so when I write a 'to_json' method, I can test it against the expected structure
  622. [21:36:27] <mfbot> [[rest/opacity]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/opacity&diff=0&oldid=9847 * DrErnie * (+119) edited final comment, added See Also
  623. [21:36:30] <bewest> I see
  624. [21:37:22] <bewest> hmmm
  625. [21:37:41] <bewest> so XML output is less than satisfactory because it's not the same target as production
  626. [21:37:58] <kingryan> actually, I just prefer JSON
  627. [21:38:16] <kingryan> and I'm already using JSON
  628. [21:38:47] <kingryan> I'd like to be able to programatically assure myself that the JSON I produce is in the structure I expect (and my co-workers expect :D)
  629. [21:41:23] <bewest> yeah
  630. [21:41:42] <bewest> that is, without creating a unique test case for each new example?
  631. [21:45:24] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) Quit ()
  632. [21:46:31] <kingryan> right
  633. [21:46:36] <kingryan> I have some of those already
  634. [21:46:49] <kingryan> but there's also use case #1, which is the authoring
  635. [21:47:51] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  636. [21:47:59] <bewest> hmm.... from a peer-review perspective?
  637. [21:48:13] <bewest> "does the suggested expected structure look sane?"
  638. [21:48:18] * DanC noodles on using grammars to check json structures
  639. [21:48:25] <kingryan> right, bewest
  640. [21:48:42] <kingryan> "is this a reasonable representation of a valid hFoo?"
  641. [21:49:03] <bewest> right
  642. [21:49:08] <DanC> yeah, I think I'd start with LL(1) grammars, i.e. the ones you can check with a top-down parser.
  643. [21:49:08] * terrell (n=terrell@207.7.107.15) has left #microformats
  644. [21:49:25] <DanC> I'd prolly write the grammar in javascript.
  645. [21:49:53] * bewest also thinks it'd be better/easier in javascript
  646. [21:50:21] <kingryan> DanC: did you look at http://www.kuwata-lab.com/kwalify/users-guide.02.html#tips-json ?
  647. [21:50:26] <kingryan> as an example?
  648. [21:51:01] * bewest blinks
  649. [21:51:03] <bewest> wow
  650. [21:51:06] <bewest> I did something like this
  651. [21:51:07] <DanC> e.g. if an hFoo structure is a sequence of (int, string, int, string, ...) then ... --
  652. [21:51:25] * bewest tries to find it
  653. [21:51:54] <bewest> kingryan: http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js
  654. [21:52:11] <kingryan> awesome, bewest
  655. [21:52:12] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  656. [21:52:13] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  657. [21:52:27] <kingryan> did you write code for validation?
  658. [21:52:41] <bewest> no...
  659. [21:52:58] <bewest> I shared it here and no one seemed impressed at the time
  660. [21:53:02] <bewest> so I moved on
  661. [21:53:09] <DanC> I did no, kingryan . that seems like a pretty reasonable approach
  662. [21:53:33] <kingryan> well, bewest I have concrete use cases now :D
  663. [21:53:39] <bewest> nice
  664. [21:53:49] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9848 * AndyMabbett * (+161) Quantitative evidence - another 7,000
  665. [21:53:54] <kingryan> DanC: you're refereing to Kwalify?
  666. [21:54:00] <DanC> ues
  667. [21:54:02] <DanC> yes
  668. [21:54:09] <bewest> I wanted to use it to automatically generate parsers of microformats, and then validate that it was a good parsing
  669. [21:54:16] * DanC starts to think about deriving http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js by machine from the XMDP profile; better stop...
  670. [21:54:35] <kingryan> yeah, stop, not everything's in the xmdp
  671. [21:54:47] <kingryan> but we could always link to such a schema *from* the xmdp
  672. [21:55:17] <DanC> ah. yes, a link is good
  673. [21:55:41] * tantek offhandedly mentions http://w3.org/ - note big bold red headline in middle of home page ;)
  674. [21:56:15] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9849 * AndyMabbett * (+6) Quantitative evidence - embolden
  675. [21:57:05] <DanC> yup, tantek, it's official now
  676. [21:58:37] <DanC> has anybody around here looked at the stuff above openID? the profile stuff? considered how it relates to hCard?
  677. [21:58:48] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  678. [21:59:40] <kingryan> DanC: actually, some openID people emailed me about it, but I couldn't get my head around their question, so nothing's happened there
  679. [21:59:59] * kingryan doesn't know how openid works
  680. [22:00:37] <kingryan> I should find that email and ask them to query the discuss list
  681. [22:01:01] * drewinthehead has been thinking about hCard + openID
  682. [22:01:01] <DanC> note the list of properties in http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-properties-list-1_0-01.html ... does "honorific prefix" sound familiar?
  683. [22:01:31] <kingryan> vaguely :D
  684. [22:01:53] <DanC> hmm... http://openid.net/schema/media/image/64x64 is 404
  685. [22:01:54] * bewest has been thinking about connecting openID to "meat space", potentially using information contained in hcards
  686. [22:02:01] <kingryan> the similarity doesn't extend very much further
  687. [22:02:18] <drewinthehead> without getting into the nitty gritty, openID takes a URL as a login ... that service then vouches for your identity
  688. [22:02:28] <kingryan> drewinthehead: I've got that much
  689. [22:02:31] <bewest> *phone rings* "Press 1 to authorize ____."
  690. [22:02:36] <kingryan> I don't know how the protocol works, though
  691. [22:02:45] <drewinthehead> there's opportunity to present an hCard on that resulting page that would be useful in the creation of a new account
  692. [22:02:51] <DanC> it's a bunch of redirection and cookie magic. not too crazy.
  693. [22:03:21] <kingryan> ok, drewinthehead, but the openID folk have created their own xml schema instead?
  694. [22:03:34] <drewinthehead> then they need slapping
  695. [22:03:42] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  696. [22:04:02] <kingryan> I mean, that's what http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-properties-list-1_0-01.html is, right?
  697. [22:04:34] <DanC> I read "<xrd:Type> child element of the <xrd:Service> element in the XRDS discovery document." in http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-exchange-1_0-01.html and I wanna barf. they didn't stick within XHTML, but they didn't go all the way to RDF. argh!
  698. [22:05:05] <DanC> I just want to maintain my homepage.
  699. [22:05:18] <drewinthehead> yeah, that's all dumb
  700. [22:05:23] <kingryan> well, we might still be able to suggest the simpler alternative
  701. [22:05:25] <drewinthehead> we should slap them up sharp
  702. [22:05:37] <DanC> gently :)
  703. [22:05:40] * kingryan nominates drewinthehead for some blog-slapping
  704. [22:06:12] <drewinthehead> ok, i'll see if i can nab willison tomorrow and pick his brain - he's been doing a lot of openID implementation
  705. [22:06:21] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9850 * AndyMabbett * (+78) Quantitative evidence - Wikibooks Dichotomous Key
  706. [22:06:31] <drewinthehead> the threat of lunch should work
  707. [22:06:42] <DanC> this isn't exactly blog-slapping, but it is a blog item... http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/97 2006-03-17
  708. [22:06:56] <DanC> note that MS infocard has a similar list of properties.
  709. [22:07:10] <DanC> my notes continue in http://www.w3.org/2006/03dc-aus-lga/swauth ...
  710. [22:08:48] <DanC> the microsoft infocard guys at least had the good sense to use html
  711. [22:09:13] <DanC> 404 @ http://schemas.microsoft.com/ws/2005/05/identity/claims/givenname though
  712. [22:10:22] <DanC> kingryan, please do learn how openid works. If I were less sleep-deprived, I'd walk you thru it. I really want the uf wiki to grok openid. The simile wiki does...
  713. [22:10:48] <DanC> http://simile.mit.edu/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:Userlogin&returnto=Main_Page
  714. [22:11:36] <tantek> DanC, any idea why infocard invented its own schema rather than just re-using vCard/hCard?
  715. [22:12:07] <DanC> people don't seem to need a reason to not do their homework
  716. [22:12:38] <DanC> I sorta had an opportunity to ask, at that workshop, but didn't jump on it.
  717. [22:14:08] <DanC> quick walkthru: when I go to the simile wiki login, I enter my openid (i.e. the URL of my homepage)...
  718. [22:14:45] <DanC> ... then the simile wiki looks at my homepage and finds an openid link to the verisign pip deely, and redirects me to the pip deely, as if to say "who is this guy; do you vouch for him?"
  719. [22:15:08] <DanC> then I login with the pip deely, and it redirects me back to simile and says "yeah, he's who he says he is."
  720. [22:15:19] <kingryan> they talk via cookies?
  721. [22:15:42] <DanC> yeah; nonces and such go across as cookies. or url query params. or something.
  722. [22:16:15] <kingryan> ok
  723. [22:17:18] <bewest> there's nothing that says what mechanism the provider has to use to authenticate you, correct?
  724. [22:17:20] <DanC> it's actually a combination of the two. I forget the details, but it's sorta obvious if you study it. the code that is. the protocol spec doesn't give the "ah hah!" factor. norm walsh did something in ruby lately.
  725. [22:17:30] <DanC> right, bewest.
  726. [22:17:43] <bewest> eg the provider could call you up on your mobile phone...
  727. [22:17:46] <DanC> right
  728. [22:17:55] * DanC is off to take son to a soccer game in a minute
  729. [22:18:12] <DanC> ndw on openid and ruby http://norman.walsh.name/2006/10/20/identity
  730. [22:18:24] <kingryan> I definitely need to read up on it more, esp. since we're using it at work now (http://technorati.com/weblog/2006/10/144.html)
  731. [22:18:24] * bewest imagines authenticating via performing the hokey pokey in front of a camera
  732. [22:19:14] <DanC> jibot, bewest?
  733. [22:19:27] * DanC can't remember the players without a scorecard
  734. [22:19:47] <kingryan> ?bewest
  735. [22:20:15] <kingryan> ?whois bewest
  736. [22:20:15] <jibot> bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
  737. [22:20:35] <kingryan> ?learn bewest is Ben West
  738. [22:20:35] <jibot> bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com and Ben West
  739. [22:20:49] <DanC> hasta
  740. [22:21:23] <bewest> ?learn bewest and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  741. [22:21:23] <jibot> I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
  742. [22:21:35] <bewest> ?learn bewest is and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  743. [22:21:36] <jibot> bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com and Ben West and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  744. [22:21:57] <bewest> hmm
  745. [22:22:11] * remi (n=remi@dsl-157-172.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
  746. [22:22:11] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  747. [22:22:21] <kingryan> ?whois kingryan
  748. [22:22:22] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king and is in San Francisco, CA and is another one o' them Technorati people
  749. [22:22:40] <kingryan> ?learn kingryan is blogs at http://theryanking.com/
  750. [22:22:41] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king and is in San Francisco, CA and is another one o' them Technorati people and blogs at http://theryanking.com/
  751. [22:23:22] <bewest> ?forget bewest
  752. [22:23:23] <jibot> I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
  753. [22:23:28] <bewest> ?forgetme
  754. [22:23:28] <jibot> I have expunged bewest from my mind
  755. [22:24:25] <bewest> ?learn bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  756. [22:24:25] <jibot> bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  757. [22:29:06] <kingryan> anyone know if there's a way to ask mflogbot for a link to 'right now' in the logs?
  758. [22:32:25] <bewest> mflogbot: help
  759. [22:32:57] <bewest> ?karma
  760. [22:32:57] <jibot> Karma Dump available at: http://an9.org/~jibot
  761. [22:35:49] <bewest> is Mike Schinkel in here?
  762. [22:36:25] <kingryan> I don't see him on http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people
  763. [22:38:50] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  764. [22:43:43] * danja (n=danja@host202-218-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  765. [22:47:12] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  766. [22:48:46] * SvperPhly (i=superphl@ip24-250-181-133.bc.dl.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  767. [22:50:52] * kwijibo (n=keithale@87.113.69.24.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  768. [22:55:35] <tantek> indeed - do we need an FAQ about invisible data?
  769. [22:55:54] <tantek> as in, please don't bother wasting time? or at least wasting microformats time?
  770. [22:58:42] <bewest> I was going to point him the direction of some editorial tools
  771. [22:59:00] <bewest> I'm not sure how microformats would help search engines with editorial content
  772. [22:59:06] <bewest> eg which sites are aliases of others
  773. [22:59:41] <bewest> that's what DMOZ is supposed to be for
  774. [23:01:30] <tantek> i'm not sure search engines need that help
  775. [23:01:35] <tantek> they seem to be doing fine on their own
  776. [23:01:39] <tantek> and they're not asking for the help
  777. [23:01:49] <tantek> so it's not even clear they would take the help
  778. [23:02:01] <tantek> more theoretical example arguing - sigh
  779. [23:02:36] <bewest> well, anyway, microformats are about content problems
  780. [23:02:49] <bewest> the aliasing of sites is out-of-band with respect to content on the page
  781. [23:04:40] <kingryan> tantek: hadn't some search engines and content producers asked about doing something like rel-canonical?
  782. [23:04:43] <kingryan> spam summit?
  783. [23:05:08] * Phae (n=Steven@dsl-62-3-104-101.zen.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  784. [23:05:08] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  785. [23:05:33] * SuperPhly (i=superphl@ip24-250-181-133.bc.dl.cox.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  786. [23:06:11] <tantek> yeah, there were rumblings about rel-canonical
  787. [23:06:22] * Phae (n=Steven@dsl-62-3-104-101.zen.co.uk) Quit (Client Quit)
  788. [23:06:25] <tantek> i invited the folks there to participate in researching a microformat for it etc.
  789. [23:06:38] <tantek> and the lack of activity IMHO reflects lack of sufficient interest
  790. [23:06:41] <tantek> which is perfectly fine
  791. [23:06:46] <kingryan> yeah
  792. [23:06:52] <tantek> because we don't want/need an explosion of microformats
  793. [23:07:11] * tantek keeps wondering why so many people seem to assume a desire for LOTS of microformats.
  794. [23:07:28] <kingryan> they just want to build stuff and put their name on it
  795. [23:07:49] <kingryan> there's status and authority that comes with creating something that others use
  796. [23:08:21] * SheepCow bows to the gods of microformats
  797. [23:08:24] <SheepCow> we're not worthy
  798. [23:08:34] <SheepCow> </wayne's world clip>
  799. [23:08:35] <SheepCow> :~)
  800. [23:08:43] * SheepCow is now known as boneill
  801. [23:09:12] <kingryan> boneill: I don't think its that big of a deal, it's just that people get tempted by it
  802. [23:09:25] <kingryan> but the authors are soon forgotten by everyone except the insiders
  803. [23:09:52] <bewest> tantek: some of it is a lack of shared meaning: I became aware recently that "publishing behaviour" didn't have as much mindshare as I thought it did
  804. [23:15:07] <kingryan> I'm heading out. later.
  805. [23:15:08] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  806. [23:18:49] <tantek> bewest: publishing behavior - people posting content on publicly accessible HTTP URLs
  807. [23:18:56] <tantek> that should work
  808. [23:19:03] <tantek> for our purposes
  809. [23:19:23] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  810. [23:19:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  811. [23:20:23] <bewest> tantek: isn't it "what they publish?" and "how they mark it up?"
  812. [23:20:51] <bewest> with some consideration made to "how it's made available", although publicly accessible HTTP URL's may be enough for that
  813. [23:22:20] <tantek> yes, what they publish is key
  814. [23:22:34] <tantek> how they mark it up can be good for documenting behaviors but not necessary
  815. [23:22:38] <tantek> what is more important is
  816. [23:22:45] <tantek> when people publishing information of type x
  817. [23:22:54] <tantek> what properties/values do they publish along with it?
  818. [23:23:06] <tantek> those must be documented as part of the research of examples
  819. [23:23:43] <tantek> because that implied schema informs the conceptual set of properties that should go into the brainstorming proposals
  820. [23:23:51] <tantek> we can do better at clarifying that
  821. [23:24:21] <tantek> because a few folks seem to be jumping from, here are a bunch of examples to here is a proposal with a list of properties that *I* (they) think are important (with no connection to the properties implied/used by the examples)
  822. [23:24:33] * bewest nods
  823. [23:26:03] <bewest> I found the plant proposal interesting
  824. [23:26:17] <bewest> it seemed centered around the regimine...
  825. [23:26:21] <bewest> which is a bit like a recipe
  826. [23:26:32] <bewest> perhaps an ordered list would work
  827. [23:26:49] * bewest wonders if there is a need for publishing regimines
  828. [23:27:24] <bewest> gah
  829. [23:27:35] <bewest> s/regimine/regimen
  830. [23:27:49] <tantek> agreed - i wonder that too
  831. [23:34:18] * kwijibo (n=keithale@87.113.69.24.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  832. [23:34:59] * boneill curses his triplestore
  833. [23:39:53] * tantek screenshots W3C home page to Flickr: http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/279427600/
  834. [23:41:38] <boneill> hehe
  835. [23:41:47] <boneill> in mac ie no less
  836. [23:42:06] <tantek> but of course - nowhere else can i easily flavor switch the chrome to match/accent a particular color ;)
  837. [23:42:17] <boneill> lol
  838. [23:43:56] <bewest> chrome.css ??
  839. [23:44:10] <KevinMarks> no, resedit
  840. [23:44:27] <tantek> no
  841. [23:44:46] <tantek> menubar > View > Browser Color > Ruby
  842. [23:44:54] <tantek> that's what i mean by *easily*
  843. [23:45:29] <KevinMarks> heh
  844. [23:46:24] * bewest takes a shot in the dark
  845. [23:46:49] <bewest> anyone have any idea why RB_GETBKCOLOR would start failing in IE7?
  846. [23:47:33] * bewest suspects it has something to do with the window hierarchy
  847. [23:59:28] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats

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