IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-12-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:06:51] <bewest> kingryan: suggestion: avoid phrases like "Tantek and I". consider "the administrators" or something instead ;-)
  2. [00:07:02] <kingryan> I know
  3. [00:07:24] <kingryan> that's partially why we've added more people to the admin list
  4. [00:07:44] <bewest> very wise :-)
  5. [00:07:44] <kingryan> so that admins != [tantek, ryan]
  6. [00:14:14] <KevinMarks> I thought I was in admins too
  7. [00:14:23] <KevinMarks> not that I do much of it...
  8. [00:14:37] * KevinMarks looks guilty
  9. [00:20:31] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  11. [00:26:50] <kingryan> KevinMarks: I mean active_admins != [:tantek, :ryan] :D
  12. [00:29:35] * Prometheus^^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Client Quit)
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  14. [00:37:44] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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  27. [01:41:04] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  28. [01:45:00] <mfbot> [[history-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-examples&diff=0&oldid=11138 * JeremyBoggs * (+53) HTML-based Timelines -
  29. [01:45:11] <mfbot> [[history-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-examples&diff=0&oldid=11139 * JeremyBoggs * (+1) HTML-based Timelines -
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  38. [03:29:29] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  39. [03:29:30] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  40. [03:29:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
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  43. [03:34:47] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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  58. [05:09:48] <jibot> vmarks is in NC
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  153. [07:22:49] <KevinMarks> A quote from maciej on RDF:
  154. [07:23:05] <KevinMarks> 11:14:51othermaciej: embedded RDF metadata is overengineered nonsense
  155. [07:23:20] <KevinMarks> 11:15:20othermaciej: it has three big problems
  156. [07:23:40] <KevinMarks> 11:15:36othermaciej: 1) syntax way overblown
  157. [07:23:40] <KevinMarks> 11:15:52othermaciej: 2) depends on out-of band hidden metadata, rather than semantically marking up visible data
  158. [07:23:40] <KevinMarks> 11:17:49othermaciej: 3) only a meta-format - with no shared vocabulary, there's no real agreed-upon meaning
  159. [07:23:40] <KevinMarks> 11:18:02othermaciej: the total extensibility of RDF is its greatest weakness
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  170. [10:45:23] <drewinthehead> morin' Phae
  171. [10:45:28] <Phae> hello :)
  172. [10:49:19] <Phae> I need to record my conversations. I have explained to at least 3 people, out there in the real world, what microformats are this week.
  173. [10:49:32] <Phae> i'm sure i sound like a robot
  174. [10:49:35] <Phae> or a cult member
  175. [10:50:37] <drewinthehead> you WILL believe
  176. [10:50:43] <Phae> yea
  177. [10:59:55] <Phae> right. bbl.
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  188. [15:43:59] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("Don't touch /dev/null…")
  189. [16:02:19] * BobJonkman (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  190. [16:06:02] * briansuda sees we have alot more admins now ;)
  191. [16:06:33] <drewinthehead> :)
  192. [16:07:17] <Phae> hey brian
  193. [16:13:35] <briansuda> hello Phae, how's everything?
  194. [16:14:10] <Phae> not to shabby
  195. [16:14:13] <Phae> too* too.
  196. [16:15:12] <briansuda> good to hear - the whole twitter thing has kept me informed, probably more than i want/need to be
  197. [16:15:20] <Phae> agreed.
  198. [16:15:41] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  199. [16:15:51] <Phae> i quite like the constantly-connected feel, but i'm not so keen on its use as an IM
  200. [16:16:43] <briansuda> i was trying to play around with Picoformats in my bio - it might be something to bring-up again with the popularity of twitter?
  201. [16:17:10] <Phae> yeah
  202. [16:17:26] * Phae goes and looks at brain's bio
  203. [16:17:32] <briansuda> not sure who mentioned it, but integration with Flickr/upcoming/et al would be nice
  204. [16:17:56] <Phae> i think everyone has said that now
  205. [16:18:02] <Phae> it needs some extra connections to make it useful
  206. [16:18:07] <Phae> or it'll get boring and die
  207. [16:18:28] <briansuda> well, that's were something like picoformats come in, text-level-encoding.
  208. [16:19:16] <briansuda> @v:u:1234 means @venue:upcoming:1234 but that's a pain, and not very user/publicer friend. Dodgeball does a good job of associating place names with predefined venues
  209. [16:19:37] <briansuda> but those might be pre-defined.... not sure. i don't know what Twitter's big picture plan is?
  210. [16:20:06] <Phae> i don't know. if they got it more incorporated into things like upcoming, with better friend settings, it could be the UK's dodgeball
  211. [16:20:15] <Phae> the twitter people pop onto IRC requently
  212. [16:20:18] <Phae> frequently*
  213. [16:45:19] * blakestar (n=blakesta@cpe-76-185-114-3.tx.res.rr.com) Quit ()
  214. [16:53:28] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd112.rhi.hi.is) Quit ()
  215. [17:21:22] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  216. [17:21:49] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe060.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
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  219. [17:50:39] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.169-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  220. [18:05:13] * raxor_ (n=chatzill@cpe-76-166-225-129.socal.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 2.0/2006101023]")
  221. [18:09:28] * Faye (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
  222. [18:09:28] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  223. [18:09:58] * Faye is now known as Phae
  224. [18:10:15] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
  225. [18:16:55] <tantek> good morning
  226. [18:17:02] <tantek> lots of email list traffic this morning
  227. [18:17:12] <Phae> indeed. i've noticed the same.
  228. [18:17:16] <Phae> must be bad weather out.
  229. [18:17:44] * drewinthehead is really behind with mail
  230. [18:18:19] <Phae> ditto. i have stuff i keep star'ing to come back to and my star'd folder is getting large
  231. [18:18:31] * tantek is a little tired of the excessive web architecture / extensibility discussions and will probably shut them down soon.
  232. [18:18:41] <Phae> i feel bad. i should discourage people from emailing me personally
  233. [18:18:53] <drewinthehead> erp .. 2397 unread in uf-discuss :(
  234. [18:18:56] <Phae> :(
  235. [18:18:58] <Phae> mines not THAT bad.
  236. [18:19:16] <tantek> I think we need to start discouraging some of the more theoretical discussions to at least cut back on the noise and get back to being more practical.
  237. [18:19:37] * Phae nods.
  238. [18:19:53] * drewinthehead marks all read and vows to be a better microformateer
  239. [18:20:02] <Phae> like scouts honour?
  240. [18:20:09] <drewinthehead> yup
  241. [18:20:11] <Phae> :)
  242. [18:20:13] <drewinthehead> dib dib
  243. [18:20:36] <drewinthehead> stick a sausage in my eye, etc etc
  244. [18:20:46] * Phae was neither a scount nor a brownie.
  245. [18:20:52] <Phae> scout * argh.
  246. [18:21:01] <Phae> anyway. yes. how do you propose doing that, tantek?
  247. [18:21:55] <tantek> by adding to the wiki with sections that are permalinkable that any admins can point to to shut down threads that are too theoretical or off-topic.
  248. [18:22:04] <tantek> and then asking kindly on the list
  249. [18:22:26] <tantek> if asking kindly doesn't work, then moderation
  250. [18:22:41] <Phae> m'k
  251. [18:23:08] <tantek> statistically, recently at least, it seems only a few individuals are being excessively noisy on the list
  252. [18:25:22] <tantek> one thing that would help is to point out when obvious mailing list guidelines are violated
  253. [18:25:37] <tantek> e.g. endless posting on a thread without changing the subject line when the content of the thread does change
  254. [18:25:51] <Phae> quite
  255. [18:25:57] <tantek> e.g. "comments from IBM/Lotus"
  256. [18:26:43] <Phae> yes. okay. we could probably all use a quick refresher on the mailing list rules, so I shall re-read them. although they're not unusual ones - most lists are the same
  257. [18:27:13] <tantek> ours are derived from css-discuss, courtesy of Eric Meyer
  258. [18:27:41] * Phae nod.
  259. [18:27:45] <Phae> swish.
  260. [18:27:59] <Phae> I gotta run though. Feel free to keep talking about this. I'll read the logs in the morning.
  261. [18:28:25] <tantek> e.g. talk of parsing in microformats-discuss
  262. [18:28:28] <tantek> that's off topic
  263. [18:28:34] <tantek> parsing should be discussed in microformats-dev
  264. [18:28:40] <tantek> and then only by folks actually *working* on parsers
  265. [18:28:42] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit ("bye <3")
  266. [18:28:47] <tantek> theoretical discussions are not welcome
  267. [18:32:46] * remi (i=remi@c75.152.27-239.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  268. [18:33:58] <BenWard> There was talk a little while back about having a dedicated section on the Wiki for Frequenctly Voiced Misconceptions. Did that ever get acted on?
  269. [18:35:22] <tantek> there was?
  270. [18:35:30] <tantek> how would you distinguish those from FAQs?
  271. [18:35:44] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe060.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  272. [18:35:46] <tantek> I mean, the concept sounds interesting - we just need to figure out a good separation
  273. [18:35:56] <BenWard> It may not have been called that, I just made that up.
  274. [18:36:28] <BenWard> But the premise was to deal with some of the common ‘Must I use SPANs and DIVs’ sort of FAQs (either as part of a FAQ or elsewhere)
  275. [18:36:33] <yakk> yay
  276. [18:36:39] <yakk> then I could unsubscribe from uf-discuss
  277. [18:37:04] <yakk> I don't care about hShoeSize till I have to parse it!
  278. [18:37:42] <BenWard> I must get around to proposing the ‘rich-examples’ idea discussed off-list three weeks back as well. Gah, my µf sticky note is getting i too full.
  279. [18:41:51] <BenWard> I reckon we should see about getting the core issue from each of these theoretical discusions documented on the Wiki. Just a couple of paragraphs at most. So one headed ‘Won't we run out of class names?’ would cover much of this week. Perhaps one for ‘How do my users define their own Microformats?’. Definitely nuke ‘Custom Fields’ in with that as well.
  280. [18:42:20] <BenWard> However, I must make myself some dinner, so will think all that over a little more for an hour or so.
  281. [18:42:53] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  282. [18:43:03] <tantek> BenWard, yes, documenting the core issues would be good
  283. [18:43:11] <tantek> the problem is that many of these have already been documented
  284. [18:43:31] <tantek> yet (at least some or a few) people don't seem to read the wiki, or wish to keep reraising the same issues.
  285. [18:45:31] <BenWard> There will always be people who don't read the Wiki. It'd have thought it's best handled by making sure that the concise answers to all these issues are easy to find in one place (I haven't checked yet, maybe they already are. After dinner :-) ), then it may hopefully just require a kick of community vigilance.
  286. [18:47:36] <BenWard> I think we might need to answer a few of them in more detail. Because certainly with regard to things like naming conflicts and namespaces, people who think that's a a good idea come in with a lot of presumptions and a flat ‘that's hypothetical and out-of-scope’ will only yield an argumentative ‘why?’, and probably a ‘you're making a big mistake dismissing this’ type reaction.
  287. [18:48:17] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-253-100.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
  288. [18:48:26] <BenWard> Need to make sure the questions are answered fully to reduce list noise. Becuase if they're not satisfied by the wiki referral the discussion will carry on regardless.
  289. [18:48:48] <BenWard> Anyway, really going to go and make dinner now. Back shortly.
  290. [18:53:14] <tantek> The discussion doesn't necessarily need to continue on the list - we can simply reject/terminate theoretical discussions.
  291. [18:58:24] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()
  292. [19:41:31] * BobJonkman (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  293. [19:42:04] * edsu (n=esummers@208.68.173.106) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  295. [20:01:26] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  296. [20:02:32] * edsu (n=esummers@208.68.173.106) has joined #microformats
  297. [20:03:48] * vmarks (n=vmarks@rrcs-70-62-104-183.midsouth.biz.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  298. [20:11:57] <tantek> ok, emails sent. now let's see what happens.
  299. [20:26:11] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("software update")
  300. [20:28:16] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) Quit ()
  301. [20:30:25] * saff (n=saff@213.1.255.149) has left #microformats
  302. [20:31:54] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-156-169.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  303. [20:32:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  304. [20:32:13] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) has joined #microformats
  305. [20:38:43] <drewinthehead> emails sounded fair, tantek.
  306. [20:38:54] <drewinthehead> hey BenWard
  307. [20:39:06] <tantek> thanks drew. feel free to follow up as well.
  308. [20:39:07] <BenWard> Hi drewinthehead
  309. [20:39:48] <tantek> hey BenWard
  310. [20:40:20] <drewinthehead> glad to see i'm not the only Brit not at the BBC party :)
  311. [20:40:40] <BenWard> Bit of a trek from Birmingham and I've blown all my money on gigs :)
  312. [20:40:47] * KevinMarks is not witehr
  313. [20:40:51] <KevinMarks> either
  314. [20:41:07] <KevinMarks> even more of a trek from California
  315. [20:41:38] * BenWard concedes to KevinMarks
  316. [20:41:51] * drewinthehead thinks KevinMarks doesn't count as he's defected ;)
  317. [20:43:35] * KevinMarks waves his passport
  318. [20:44:11] * drewinthehead is feeling charitable, so concedes also ;)
  319. [20:52:29] <KevinMarks> the bug in that whole parsing discussing is that parsing is just data transformation - it is only when you know what the data means that it matters
  320. [20:52:54] <KevinMarks> so a general parser is either trivial or impossible
  321. [20:56:41] * bewes1 (n=ben@c-24-7-41-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  322. [20:56:52] * bewes1 blinks
  323. [20:57:07] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  324. [20:57:11] * bewes1 is now known as bewest
  325. [20:57:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o bewest
  326. [20:57:24] <drewinthehead> greetings bewest
  327. [20:57:28] <bewest> greetings
  328. [21:00:16] <yakk> speaking of parsing...
  329. [21:00:25] <yakk> in xoxo we have language like this: In general, properties on an outline item <li> are represented by a nested definition list <dl>. Strictly speaking, it is the first <dl> inside the <li> and before any following <ol>, <ul>, or <li>,
  330. [21:00:46] <yakk> does that mean the <dl> must be a child of the <li> or can it be a grandchild, etc
  331. [21:01:12] * yakk longs for validators.
  332. [21:02:20] <bewest> yakk: what do you mean?
  333. [21:02:47] <bewest> yakk: do you mean something like <li> <div> <dl> ...</dl></div></li> ?
  334. [21:02:56] <tantek> yakk, if you interpret the text literally, it seems you could have an intervening <div> for example and still be following the text
  335. [21:02:57] <yakk> bewest, exactly
  336. [21:03:43] <yakk> tantek, okey dokey - sound fair
  337. [21:04:03] <yakk> though I'll probably implement a xoxo subset rather than full xoxo for simplicity's sake
  338. [21:06:07] <bewest> is anyone worried about usage of the word "microformat" for things we understand to be not-microformats?
  339. [21:06:18] <tantek> bewest, a little, but not too much
  340. [21:06:23] <tantek> we just need to keep calling people out on it
  341. [21:06:39] <bewest> eg the unapi spec, the recent usage on the whatwg list...
  342. [21:06:42] <tantek> and the community will hopefully help enforce that
  343. [21:06:45] <tantek> just keep letting people know - a set of semantic class names != a microformat
  344. [21:06:52] <tantek> just as a quadrilateral != a square
  345. [21:07:10] <tantek> it is inevitable with any buzzword popularity
  346. [21:07:16] <bewest> I sense we've already reached a tipping point
  347. [21:07:39] <tantek> bewest, do we need a what-is-not-a-microformat page?
  348. [21:07:52] <bewest> hmmm
  349. [21:07:52] <tantek> we could simply use that to link to and list the offenders
  350. [21:08:24] <bewest> even in the discussions on our list, the difference is often subtly overlooked
  351. [21:09:31] <bewest> I think a dictionary page would be more useful
  352. [21:09:41] <bewest> I started a list in my todo list
  353. [21:10:17] <bewest> ah, Andy linked me to the glossary; that's useful
  354. [21:10:47] <tantek> yes, the glossary is useful
  355. [21:11:18] <tantek> i have to for a bit folks, but in the mean time i'd like to ask you a question and see what answers you come up with
  356. [21:11:57] <tantek> how would you recommend that people on the mailing list deal with argumentative messages which are not otherwise rude or offensive?
  357. [21:12:10] <tantek> bbiab
  358. [21:16:59] <bewest> confounding messages are harmful to the community in the same way as abuse or spam
  359. [21:43:49] * Loosive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  360. [21:44:19] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("Don't touch /dev/null…")
  361. [21:47:58] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  362. [21:48:59] * Mr_Loosive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  363. [21:50:36] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  364. [22:03:32] * Loosive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  365. [22:05:11] * vmarks (n=vmarks@rrcs-70-62-104-183.midsouth.biz.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  366. [22:07:12] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  367. [22:07:43] <tantek> indeed bewest, the s-n ratio argument can be made about argumentative messages
  368. [22:09:51] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  369. [22:14:51] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.38) has joined #microformats
  370. [22:16:25] <drewinthehead> OT: is 'name space' always two words? Never 'namespace' ?
  371. [22:17:32] <yakk> I would always use one word
  372. [22:18:10] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  373. [22:18:48] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  374. [22:19:39] * Mr_Loosive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  375. [22:19:55] * Mr_Loosive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  376. [22:20:26] <veeliam> one word
  377. [22:21:03] <drewinthehead> thanks guys
  378. [22:21:34] <veeliam> drewinthehead, np
  379. [22:32:27] <Prometheus^> anyone mind looking at my vcard code? I thought I got it right but it's not showing up on tails :/
  380. [22:32:46] <drewinthehead> post the URL, Prometheus^
  381. [22:33:06] <Prometheus^> http://pastie.textmate.org/26764
  382. [22:33:15] <Prometheus^> I don't have it on the web yet since it's client work
  383. [22:33:17] <Prometheus^> but that's the snippet
  384. [22:33:50] <Prometheus^> should that be class and not id vcard? :o
  385. [22:34:06] <Prometheus^> *slaps self* of course :(
  386. [22:34:22] <Prometheus^> now it works :P
  387. [22:34:31] <Prometheus^> sorry to bother you
  388. [22:37:33] <drewinthehead> sometimes all you need is someone to show it to ... the problems often expose themselves in the process of working out how to explain the problem :)
  389. [22:38:02] <Prometheus^> so it seems
  390. [22:38:21] <Prometheus^> I wasn't paying attention to the html when it was on the actual page
  391. [22:38:28] <Prometheus^> but when I took it out of context it was much easier to go through :P
  392. [22:38:50] <Prometheus^> now if only I could figure out why some css isn't co-operating with me, I'd be set :D
  393. [22:44:47] * Mr_Loosive is now known as Mr_Elusive
  394. [22:45:22] <tantek> Prometheus - nicely done. yes class="vcard" is what you want.
  395. [22:45:50] <tantek> you may also wish to consider including the country code for international dialing in the phone number with a + before it
  396. [22:49:00] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  397. [22:53:13] * divoxx (n=rodrigo@201.37.108.13) has joined #microformats
  398. [22:54:47] <Prometheus^> tantek, I guess I should, thanks :)
  399. [22:57:16] <bewest> how does one apply a signature in the wiki again?
  400. [22:57:19] <bewest> [[BenWest]]
  401. [22:57:21] <bewest> will that do it?
  402. [22:58:33] <bewest> ah four tildes
  403. [22:58:52] <bewest> ~~~ == your name
  404. [22:58:52] <bewest> ~~~~ == your name + timestamp
  405. [22:58:52] <bewest> ~~~~~ == timestamp
  406. [23:01:38] * jibot (i=jibot@rdns.97.161.62.64.fre.communitycolo.net) has joined #microformats
  407. [23:30:53] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  408. [23:30:53] <jibot> vmarks is in NC
  409. [23:36:02] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) Quit ()
  410. [23:37:42] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("Don't touch /dev/null…")
  411. [23:51:31] * othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  412. [23:52:51] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

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