IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-12-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:06:51] <bewest>
kingryan: suggestion: avoid phrases like "Tantek and I". consider "the administrators" or something instead ;-)
- [00:07:02] <kingryan>
I know
- [00:07:24] <kingryan>
that's partially why we've added more people to the admin list
- [00:07:44] <bewest>
very wise :-)
- [00:07:44] <kingryan>
so that admins != [tantek, ryan]
- [00:14:14] <KevinMarks>
I thought I was in admins too
- [00:14:23] <KevinMarks>
not that I do much of it...
- [00:14:37] * KevinMarks looks guilty
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- [00:26:50] <kingryan>
KevinMarks: I mean active_admins != [:tantek, :ryan] :D
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- [00:37:44] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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- [01:41:04] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
- [01:45:00] <mfbot>
[[history-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-examples&diff=0&oldid=11138 * JeremyBoggs * (+53) HTML-based Timelines -
- [01:45:11] <mfbot>
[[history-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-examples&diff=0&oldid=11139 * JeremyBoggs * (+1) HTML-based Timelines -
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- [03:29:30] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [03:34:47] <jibot>
chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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- [05:09:48] <jibot>
vmarks is in NC
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- [07:22:49] <KevinMarks>
A quote from maciej on RDF:
- [07:23:05] <KevinMarks>
11:14:51othermaciej: embedded RDF metadata is overengineered nonsense
- [07:23:20] <KevinMarks>
11:15:20othermaciej: it has three big problems
- [07:23:40] <KevinMarks>
11:15:36othermaciej: 1) syntax way overblown
- [07:23:40] <KevinMarks>
11:15:52othermaciej: 2) depends on out-of band hidden metadata, rather than semantically marking up visible data
- [07:23:40] <KevinMarks>
11:17:49othermaciej: 3) only a meta-format - with no shared vocabulary, there's no real agreed-upon meaning
- [07:23:40] <KevinMarks>
11:18:02othermaciej: the total extensibility of RDF is its greatest weakness
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- [10:45:23] <drewinthehead>
morin' Phae
- [10:45:28] <Phae>
hello :)
- [10:49:19] <Phae>
I need to record my conversations. I have explained to at least 3 people, out there in the real world, what microformats are this week.
- [10:49:32] <Phae>
i'm sure i sound like a robot
- [10:49:35] <Phae>
or a cult member
- [10:50:37] <drewinthehead>
you WILL believe
- [10:50:43] <Phae>
yea
- [10:59:55] <Phae>
right. bbl.
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- [16:06:02] * briansuda sees we have alot more admins now ;)
- [16:06:33] <drewinthehead>
:)
- [16:07:17] <Phae>
hey brian
- [16:13:35] <briansuda>
hello Phae, how's everything?
- [16:14:10] <Phae>
not to shabby
- [16:14:13] <Phae>
too* too.
- [16:15:12] <briansuda>
good to hear - the whole twitter thing has kept me informed, probably more than i want/need to be
- [16:15:20] <Phae>
agreed.
- [16:15:41] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
- [16:15:51] <Phae>
i quite like the constantly-connected feel, but i'm not so keen on its use as an IM
- [16:16:43] <briansuda>
i was trying to play around with Picoformats in my bio - it might be something to bring-up again with the popularity of twitter?
- [16:17:10] <Phae>
yeah
- [16:17:26] * Phae goes and looks at brain's bio
- [16:17:32] <briansuda>
not sure who mentioned it, but integration with Flickr/upcoming/et al would be nice
- [16:17:56] <Phae>
i think everyone has said that now
- [16:18:02] <Phae>
it needs some extra connections to make it useful
- [16:18:07] <Phae>
or it'll get boring and die
- [16:18:28] <briansuda>
well, that's were something like picoformats come in, text-level-encoding.
- [16:19:16] <briansuda>
@v:u:1234 means @venue:upcoming:1234 but that's a pain, and not very user/publicer friend. Dodgeball does a good job of associating place names with predefined venues
- [16:19:37] <briansuda>
but those might be pre-defined.... not sure. i don't know what Twitter's big picture plan is?
- [16:20:06] <Phae>
i don't know. if they got it more incorporated into things like upcoming, with better friend settings, it could be the UK's dodgeball
- [16:20:15] <Phae>
the twitter people pop onto IRC requently
- [16:20:18] <Phae>
frequently*
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- [18:16:55] <tantek>
good morning
- [18:17:02] <tantek>
lots of email list traffic this morning
- [18:17:12] <Phae>
indeed. i've noticed the same.
- [18:17:16] <Phae>
must be bad weather out.
- [18:17:44] * drewinthehead is really behind with mail
- [18:18:19] <Phae>
ditto. i have stuff i keep star'ing to come back to and my star'd folder is getting large
- [18:18:31] * tantek is a little tired of the excessive web architecture / extensibility discussions and will probably shut them down soon.
- [18:18:41] <Phae>
i feel bad. i should discourage people from emailing me personally
- [18:18:53] <drewinthehead>
erp .. 2397 unread in uf-discuss :(
- [18:18:56] <Phae>
:(
- [18:18:58] <Phae>
mines not THAT bad.
- [18:19:16] <tantek>
I think we need to start discouraging some of the more theoretical discussions to at least cut back on the noise and get back to being more practical.
- [18:19:37] * Phae nods.
- [18:19:53] * drewinthehead marks all read and vows to be a better microformateer
- [18:20:02] <Phae>
like scouts honour?
- [18:20:09] <drewinthehead>
yup
- [18:20:11] <Phae>
:)
- [18:20:13] <drewinthehead>
dib dib
- [18:20:36] <drewinthehead>
stick a sausage in my eye, etc etc
- [18:20:46] * Phae was neither a scount nor a brownie.
- [18:20:52] <Phae>
scout * argh.
- [18:21:01] <Phae>
anyway. yes. how do you propose doing that, tantek?
- [18:21:55] <tantek>
by adding to the wiki with sections that are permalinkable that any admins can point to to shut down threads that are too theoretical or off-topic.
- [18:22:04] <tantek>
and then asking kindly on the list
- [18:22:26] <tantek>
if asking kindly doesn't work, then moderation
- [18:22:41] <Phae>
m'k
- [18:23:08] <tantek>
statistically, recently at least, it seems only a few individuals are being excessively noisy on the list
- [18:25:22] <tantek>
one thing that would help is to point out when obvious mailing list guidelines are violated
- [18:25:37] <tantek>
e.g. endless posting on a thread without changing the subject line when the content of the thread does change
- [18:25:51] <Phae>
quite
- [18:25:57] <tantek>
e.g. "comments from IBM/Lotus"
- [18:26:43] <Phae>
yes. okay. we could probably all use a quick refresher on the mailing list rules, so I shall re-read them. although they're not unusual ones - most lists are the same
- [18:27:13] <tantek>
ours are derived from css-discuss, courtesy of Eric Meyer
- [18:27:41] * Phae nod.
- [18:27:45] <Phae>
swish.
- [18:27:59] <Phae>
I gotta run though. Feel free to keep talking about this. I'll read the logs in the morning.
- [18:28:25] <tantek>
e.g. talk of parsing in microformats-discuss
- [18:28:28] <tantek>
that's off topic
- [18:28:34] <tantek>
parsing should be discussed in microformats-dev
- [18:28:40] <tantek>
and then only by folks actually *working* on parsers
- [18:28:42] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit ("bye <3")
- [18:28:47] <tantek>
theoretical discussions are not welcome
- [18:32:46] * remi (i=remi@c75.152.27-239.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:33:58] <BenWard>
There was talk a little while back about having a dedicated section on the Wiki for Frequenctly Voiced Misconceptions. Did that ever get acted on?
- [18:35:22] <tantek>
there was?
- [18:35:30] <tantek>
how would you distinguish those from FAQs?
- [18:35:44] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe060.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
- [18:35:46] <tantek>
I mean, the concept sounds interesting - we just need to figure out a good separation
- [18:35:56] <BenWard>
It may not have been called that, I just made that up.
- [18:36:28] <BenWard>
But the premise was to deal with some of the common ‘Must I use SPANs and DIVs’ sort of FAQs (either as part of a FAQ or elsewhere)
- [18:36:33] <yakk>
yay
- [18:36:39] <yakk>
then I could unsubscribe from uf-discuss
- [18:37:04] <yakk>
I don't care about hShoeSize till I have to parse it!
- [18:37:42] <BenWard>
I must get around to proposing the ‘rich-examples’ idea discussed off-list three weeks back as well. Gah, my µf sticky note is getting i too full.
- [18:41:51] <BenWard>
I reckon we should see about getting the core issue from each of these theoretical discusions documented on the Wiki. Just a couple of paragraphs at most. So one headed ‘Won't we run out of class names?’ would cover much of this week. Perhaps one for ‘How do my users define their own Microformats?’. Definitely nuke ‘Custom Fields’ in with that as well.
- [18:42:20] <BenWard>
However, I must make myself some dinner, so will think all that over a little more for an hour or so.
- [18:42:53] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
- [18:43:03] <tantek>
BenWard, yes, documenting the core issues would be good
- [18:43:11] <tantek>
the problem is that many of these have already been documented
- [18:43:31] <tantek>
yet (at least some or a few) people don't seem to read the wiki, or wish to keep reraising the same issues.
- [18:45:31] <BenWard>
There will always be people who don't read the Wiki. It'd have thought it's best handled by making sure that the concise answers to all these issues are easy to find in one place (I haven't checked yet, maybe they already are. After dinner :-) ), then it may hopefully just require a kick of community vigilance.
- [18:47:36] <BenWard>
I think we might need to answer a few of them in more detail. Because certainly with regard to things like naming conflicts and namespaces, people who think that's a a good idea come in with a lot of presumptions and a flat ‘that's hypothetical and out-of-scope’ will only yield an argumentative ‘why?’, and probably a ‘you're making a big mistake dismissing this’ type reaction.
- [18:48:17] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-253-100.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:48:26] <BenWard>
Need to make sure the questions are answered fully to reduce list noise. Becuase if they're not satisfied by the wiki referral the discussion will carry on regardless.
- [18:48:48] <BenWard>
Anyway, really going to go and make dinner now. Back shortly.
- [18:53:14] <tantek>
The discussion doesn't necessarily need to continue on the list - we can simply reject/terminate theoretical discussions.
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- [20:11:57] <tantek>
ok, emails sent. now let's see what happens.
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- [20:38:43] <drewinthehead>
emails sounded fair, tantek.
- [20:38:54] <drewinthehead>
hey BenWard
- [20:39:06] <tantek>
thanks drew. feel free to follow up as well.
- [20:39:07] <BenWard>
Hi drewinthehead
- [20:39:48] <tantek>
hey BenWard
- [20:40:20] <drewinthehead>
glad to see i'm not the only Brit not at the BBC party :)
- [20:40:40] <BenWard>
Bit of a trek from Birmingham and I've blown all my money on gigs :)
- [20:40:47] * KevinMarks is not witehr
- [20:40:51] <KevinMarks>
either
- [20:41:07] <KevinMarks>
even more of a trek from California
- [20:41:38] * BenWard concedes to KevinMarks
- [20:41:51] * drewinthehead thinks KevinMarks doesn't count as he's defected ;)
- [20:43:35] * KevinMarks waves his passport
- [20:44:11] * drewinthehead is feeling charitable, so concedes also ;)
- [20:52:29] <KevinMarks>
the bug in that whole parsing discussing is that parsing is just data transformation - it is only when you know what the data means that it matters
- [20:52:54] <KevinMarks>
so a general parser is either trivial or impossible
- [20:56:41] * bewes1 (n=ben@c-24-7-41-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:56:52] * bewes1 blinks
- [20:57:07] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
- [20:57:11] * bewes1 is now known as bewest
- [20:57:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o bewest
- [20:57:24] <drewinthehead>
greetings bewest
- [20:57:28] <bewest>
greetings
- [21:00:16] <yakk>
speaking of parsing...
- [21:00:25] <yakk>
in xoxo we have language like this: In general, properties on an outline item <li> are represented by a nested definition list <dl>. Strictly speaking, it is the first <dl> inside the <li> and before any following <ol>, <ul>, or <li>,
- [21:00:46] <yakk>
does that mean the <dl> must be a child of the <li> or can it be a grandchild, etc
- [21:01:12] * yakk longs for validators.
- [21:02:20] <bewest>
yakk: what do you mean?
- [21:02:47] <bewest>
yakk: do you mean something like <li> <div> <dl> ...</dl></div></li> ?
- [21:02:56] <tantek>
yakk, if you interpret the text literally, it seems you could have an intervening <div> for example and still be following the text
- [21:02:57] <yakk>
bewest, exactly
- [21:03:43] <yakk>
tantek, okey dokey - sound fair
- [21:04:03] <yakk>
though I'll probably implement a xoxo subset rather than full xoxo for simplicity's sake
- [21:06:07] <bewest>
is anyone worried about usage of the word "microformat" for things we understand to be not-microformats?
- [21:06:18] <tantek>
bewest, a little, but not too much
- [21:06:23] <tantek>
we just need to keep calling people out on it
- [21:06:39] <bewest>
eg the unapi spec, the recent usage on the whatwg list...
- [21:06:42] <tantek>
and the community will hopefully help enforce that
- [21:06:45] <tantek>
just keep letting people know - a set of semantic class names != a microformat
- [21:06:52] <tantek>
just as a quadrilateral != a square
- [21:07:10] <tantek>
it is inevitable with any buzzword popularity
- [21:07:16] <bewest>
I sense we've already reached a tipping point
- [21:07:39] <tantek>
bewest, do we need a what-is-not-a-microformat page?
- [21:07:52] <bewest>
hmmm
- [21:07:52] <tantek>
we could simply use that to link to and list the offenders
- [21:08:24] <bewest>
even in the discussions on our list, the difference is often subtly overlooked
- [21:09:31] <bewest>
I think a dictionary page would be more useful
- [21:09:41] <bewest>
I started a list in my todo list
- [21:10:17] <bewest>
ah, Andy linked me to the glossary; that's useful
- [21:10:47] <tantek>
yes, the glossary is useful
- [21:11:18] <tantek>
i have to for a bit folks, but in the mean time i'd like to ask you a question and see what answers you come up with
- [21:11:57] <tantek>
how would you recommend that people on the mailing list deal with argumentative messages which are not otherwise rude or offensive?
- [21:12:10] <tantek>
bbiab
- [21:16:59] <bewest>
confounding messages are harmful to the community in the same way as abuse or spam
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- [22:07:43] <tantek>
indeed bewest, the s-n ratio argument can be made about argumentative messages
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- [22:16:25] <drewinthehead>
OT: is 'name space' always two words? Never 'namespace' ?
- [22:17:32] <yakk>
I would always use one word
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- [22:20:26] <veeliam>
one word
- [22:21:03] <drewinthehead>
thanks guys
- [22:21:34] <veeliam>
drewinthehead, np
- [22:32:27] <Prometheus^>
anyone mind looking at my vcard code? I thought I got it right but it's not showing up on tails :/
- [22:32:46] <drewinthehead>
post the URL, Prometheus^
- [22:33:06] <Prometheus^>
http://pastie.textmate.org/26764
- [22:33:15] <Prometheus^>
I don't have it on the web yet since it's client work
- [22:33:17] <Prometheus^>
but that's the snippet
- [22:33:50] <Prometheus^>
should that be class and not id vcard? :o
- [22:34:06] <Prometheus^>
*slaps self* of course :(
- [22:34:22] <Prometheus^>
now it works :P
- [22:34:31] <Prometheus^>
sorry to bother you
- [22:37:33] <drewinthehead>
sometimes all you need is someone to show it to ... the problems often expose themselves in the process of working out how to explain the problem :)
- [22:38:02] <Prometheus^>
so it seems
- [22:38:21] <Prometheus^>
I wasn't paying attention to the html when it was on the actual page
- [22:38:28] <Prometheus^>
but when I took it out of context it was much easier to go through :P
- [22:38:50] <Prometheus^>
now if only I could figure out why some css isn't co-operating with me, I'd be set :D
- [22:44:47] * Mr_Loosive is now known as Mr_Elusive
- [22:45:22] <tantek>
Prometheus - nicely done. yes class="vcard" is what you want.
- [22:45:50] <tantek>
you may also wish to consider including the country code for international dialing in the phone number with a + before it
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- [22:54:47] <Prometheus^>
tantek, I guess I should, thanks :)
- [22:57:16] <bewest>
how does one apply a signature in the wiki again?
- [22:57:19] <bewest>
[[BenWest]]
- [22:57:21] <bewest>
will that do it?
- [22:58:33] <bewest>
ah four tildes
- [22:58:52] <bewest>
~~~ == your name
- [22:58:52] <bewest>
~~~~ == your name + timestamp
- [22:58:52] <bewest>
~~~~~ == timestamp
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- [23:30:53] <jibot>
vmarks is in NC
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