IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-12-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:10:35] * tantek is entertained by the rel="muse" discussion
  2. [00:20:43] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124x32x114x226.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
  3. [00:21:33] * bewest wonders why muse got listed under Romantic
  4. [00:21:35] <bewest> heh
  5. [00:22:05] <othermaciej> because it's someone you can't get with so you write poetry instead
  6. [00:22:27] <bewest> Hellenic would have been a better choice
  7. [00:22:52] <bewest> not sure what Romantic refers to there
  8. [00:23:03] <bewest> the historical period would be fitting
  9. [00:23:49] <bewest> othermaciej: hehe except that's not what "muse" means
  10. [00:24:39] * bewest sees that tantek is on the authors list and wonders if he would care to comment
  11. [00:25:01] <tantek> bewest - watch your inbox. ;)
  12. [00:25:30] <bewest> hehe
  13. [00:28:17] * tantek has waiting a while to bring up the "romanticism" connotation :)
  14. [00:28:32] <tantek> has been waiting | has waited
  15. [00:30:23] <bewest> yes, romanticism makes much much more sense
  16. [00:30:58] <tantek> and that's what i was thinking when i put rel="muse" in the "romantic" category and knew someday i'd have to clarify that :)
  17. [00:33:46] <bewest> lol I now have "Greek Music Ringtone" ads in my gmail
  18. [00:34:07] <tantek> hah!
  19. [00:37:21] * tantek needs to update his blogroll with more rel="muse" entries
  20. [00:38:33] * tantek is not sure how far to take it.
  21. [00:38:47] * tantek has been gathering data on more varieties of romantic relationships.
  22. [00:39:15] <bewest> I'm not sure I agree with the category name :)
  23. [00:39:51] <bewest> If it were up to me I'd look for another name
  24. [00:41:00] <othermaciej> do you have "random hookup" yet?
  25. [00:41:11] <othermaciej> or "had threesome with once"?
  26. [00:41:24] <othermaciej> we need to cover all the range of modern relationships
  27. [00:43:05] <bewest> othermaciej: the burden is on the proposed content to prove that it is pervasively and widely expressed in an unsuitably lossy representation before being considered for inclusion ;-)
  28. [00:43:53] <bewest> it's a "esoteric until proven vulgar" kind of system
  29. [00:43:57] <othermaciej> for "random hookup", I would cite 50% of LiveJournal
  30. [00:44:06] <bewest> in fact, maybe that should be our motto or something
  31. [00:44:26] <bewest> or at least standard response to spurious proposals
  32. [00:46:34] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ("Leaving")
  33. [00:49:59] <tantek> bewest, good one
  34. [00:50:10] <tantek> othermaciej - the term "hookup" is far too imprecise
  35. [00:50:26] <tantek> which is perhaps why it appears to have such a large sample size
  36. [00:50:28] <yakk> how do you express the threesome with merely rel
  37. [00:50:34] <othermaciej> tantek: clearly we need to use RDF to specify which parts of person A did what to which parts of person B
  38. [00:50:49] <yakk> since you might want to mark up the threesome as a group
  39. [00:50:55] <tantek> does one need to be in a threesome to truly understand RDF?
  40. [00:51:14] <yakk> <span class="groupsex"><a href=".." rel="laid"></a><a ...></a></span>
  41. [00:51:20] <tantek> perhaps this is why so few people understand RDF?
  42. [00:51:25] <yakk> rdf is simple and beautiful
  43. [00:51:29] <yakk> except when its ugly and complicated
  44. [00:51:45] <tantek> rdf ducks the hard problems
  45. [00:51:57] <yakk> I think if threesomes and RDF were related at all RDF would be a lot more popular
  46. [00:52:17] <tantek> yakk, perhaps you have struck upon the solution to evangelizing RDF
  47. [00:52:36] <yakk> tantek, between RDF and microformats I think we've got all the hard problems ducked
  48. [00:53:04] <yakk> tantek, I just wish we had something in between...
  49. [00:53:12] <tantek> yakk, actually, I'm convinced that solving the domain specific schema problems *are* the hard problems, and thus what makes microformats challenging to develop yet actually useful
  50. [00:53:18] <tantek> as opposed to another layer of abstraction
  51. [00:53:28] <tantek> that just moves symbols around
  52. [00:54:34] <tantek> bewest, wow - muse as part of identity - that is interesting
  53. [00:54:42] <bewest> :-)
  54. [00:54:58] <bewest> it's who we want to be like
  55. [00:55:03] <bewest> becoming like ___
  56. [00:55:38] <bewest> our ancient Greek friends would have understood it more in that way as well
  57. [00:56:33] <bewest> that is the point of role models, isn't it?
  58. [00:57:12] <yakk> tantek, well applications of RDF do try to solve the domain specific schema problems. When comparing RDF and microformats the difference seems to be readability vs writeability, and comparing the languages that are used to describe and specify the schemas
  59. [00:57:26] <bewest> the problem is what to do for all the people that misunderstood it and used it to encode the romantic semantics
  60. [00:57:41] <yakk> tantek, and what I long for is something that's easy for me as a human to write but easy for me as a programmer to parse
  61. [00:57:43] <tantek> bewest, the romantic semantics are included
  62. [00:57:53] <tantek> it is just that the definition is broader than just the romantic semantics
  63. [00:57:56] <veeliam> a muse is inspiration. yes? if sex inspires you then sex is your muse, irregardless of how many muses are involved.
  64. [00:58:06] <tantek> yakk, the easy to parse desire is a red herring
  65. [00:58:14] <yakk> tantek, and schema specs that are easy for me as a human to understand and something I can give an automated parser to parse
  66. [00:58:16] <tantek> open source libraries are built once, easily maintained
  67. [00:58:20] <tantek> and trivially shared
  68. [00:58:22] <yakk> ok
  69. [00:58:30] <yakk> I think that's a cop out
  70. [00:58:31] <tantek> thus "easy to parse" is "easy to get the library to parse"
  71. [00:58:41] <tantek> it's the end state
  72. [00:58:47] <yakk> I've tried writing libraries and the structure of the specifications makes the libraries hard to write
  73. [00:58:50] <tantek> the intermediate state of having to write the libraries is merely transition
  74. [00:58:55] <tantek> and only a few people need to make that transition
  75. [00:59:04] <tantek> yakk, then leave it to others
  76. [00:59:06] <tantek> to write the libraries
  77. [00:59:10] <tantek> others have for example
  78. [00:59:14] <othermaciej> whoops, did I start a real flamewar about RDF accidentally?
  79. [00:59:17] <tantek> not everyone needs to be a parser library writer
  80. [00:59:21] <tantek> nor should they want to
  81. [00:59:28] <tantek> but that's ok
  82. [00:59:34] <tantek> this is really a competition of ideas
  83. [00:59:48] <tantek> tech based on easy to publish, vs. tech based on easy to parse
  84. [00:59:50] <yakk> I like writing parsers, but what I've found when I've tried writing them is that the other parsers out there don't follow the specs
  85. [00:59:54] <tantek> i'm willing to let the market pick the winner ;)
  86. [01:00:01] <yakk> since they often make things very difficult
  87. [01:00:14] <othermaciej> interoperability requires detailed specs on how to parse, including error handling
  88. [01:00:29] <yakk> othermaciej, and we're lacking that for microformats, sadly
  89. [01:00:34] <othermaciej> but whether it's "easy" or not has relatively little relevance
  90. [01:00:34] * Loosive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("http://eswat.ca | Mrh?")
  91. [01:00:53] <yakk> othermaciej, it feels like we're in even worse shape than we were for RSS a few years ago
  92. [01:01:16] <tantek> RSS didn't really solve a new problem
  93. [01:01:18] <tantek> RSS didn't do anything that HTML couldn't do with the simple addition of a <datetime> element
  94. [01:01:24] <othermaciej> I disagree
  95. [01:01:29] <tantek> in many ways RSS was 90% unnecessary reinvention
  96. [01:01:33] <othermaciej> microformats piggyback on HTML parsing
  97. [01:01:41] <othermaciej> and the problem of interoperable HTML parsing is getting solved
  98. [01:01:43] <tantek> now the mindset of "feeds" - that was the real innovation
  99. [01:01:49] * yakk nods.
  100. [01:01:49] <othermaciej> RSS pretends to be based on XML parsing but that is a lie
  101. [01:01:58] <tantek> right othermaciej - on all accounts
  102. [01:02:13] <jinx> why is it a lie?
  103. [01:02:22] <yakk> I'm kind of cranky about the mozilla microsummaries / live titles, since the problem is already solved with either rss or html <title>
  104. [01:02:40] <othermaciej> jinx: an RSS reader that only accepted well-formed XML would not be very useful for processing real-world feeds
  105. [01:02:44] <tantek> jinx: because RSS parsers are now tag-soup like rather than strict XML parsers
  106. [01:02:59] <tantek> yakk, I agree with you re: microsummaries
  107. [01:03:04] <tantek> unnecessary reinvention :(
  108. [01:03:29] <yakk> tantek, but people love inventing new wheels
  109. [01:03:51] <bewest> in the end there's only need for one kind: the round one
  110. [01:03:57] <tantek> yakk, where do they get that impulse?
  111. [01:04:00] <tantek> is it taught in school?
  112. [01:04:02] <tantek> is it ego?
  113. [01:04:20] <tantek> and how can we teach people to unlearn that impulse?
  114. [01:04:50] <yakk> I don't know - its an instinct I have had for sure
  115. [01:05:02] <jinx> I don't agree it's always a bad thing. If people didn't try and innovate or change things, we'd still be using stone wheels...
  116. [01:05:16] <tantek> yakk, BTW, please feel free to add criticism of microsummaries here: http://microformats.org/wiki/page-summary-formats#Issues_2
  117. [01:05:18] <yakk> I try to stop and think about it before going forward. And often I miss out on opportunities as a result
  118. [01:05:35] <tantek> the answer should be laziness AKA economic incentive
  119. [01:05:46] <tantek> that is - it is theoretically easier/simpler/faster to reuse rather than reinvent
  120. [01:05:49] <yakk> tantek, its hard to elaborate my microsummary issues beyond "oh my god! why on earth did you do it?"
  121. [01:06:12] <tantek> yakk, "the problem is already solved with either rss or html <title>" is a good start
  122. [01:06:28] <yakk> tantek, microsummaries might be a technical solution to a ui problem too. As engineers we're used to creating a new protocol to solve a new problem.
  123. [01:06:43] <tantek> why is that "as engineers"?
  124. [01:06:52] <tantek> is that a discipline taught in "engineering school"?
  125. [01:07:04] <tantek> or is it simply that engineers are not taught to reuse enough?
  126. [01:07:10] <tantek> or perhaps only *programmers* have this problem
  127. [01:07:22] <tantek> because other engineering disciplines very much reuse existing solutions
  128. [01:07:26] <tantek> for safety etc. reasons
  129. [01:07:36] <bewest> tantek: that's interesting... could it really be a pedagogical issue?
  130. [01:07:44] <tantek> bewest, I think it is
  131. [01:07:59] <bewest> tantek: most programming excercises in school /are/ to re-implement things
  132. [01:08:00] <yakk> tantek, I dunno - its tied up with NIH too
  133. [01:08:13] <tantek> no CompSci program that I know of teaches students to use the web to search for the solution first, before inventing it
  134. [01:08:24] <tantek> and IMHO - that is a necessary skill that needs to be taught in schools
  135. [01:08:36] <bewest> interesting
  136. [01:08:45] <bewest> you think mainly undergrad or other levels too?
  137. [01:08:51] <tantek> undergrad should be sufficient
  138. [01:09:05] <tantek> especially if you were graded on how well you assembled your solution from existing libraries
  139. [01:09:06] <bewest> I meant in regard to where the problem resides
  140. [01:09:10] <tantek> and how little code you wrote yourself
  141. [01:09:18] <tantek> as opposed to the cleverness of all your handwritten code
  142. [01:09:21] <bewest> yes
  143. [01:09:29] <bewest> hmmm
  144. [01:09:38] <tantek> it is a methadological problem
  145. [01:09:43] <yakk> I think there's a place for both, but reuse isn't taught enough
  146. [01:09:46] <othermaciej> sometimes clever original solutions are good though
  147. [01:09:49] <tantek> programmers need to be more like assemblers of building blocks
  148. [01:09:56] <tantek> rather than craftsmen of building blocks themselves
  149. [01:10:03] <tantek> at least to begin with
  150. [01:10:14] <bewest> tantek: I'm sure most teachers would share that view though
  151. [01:10:19] <othermaciej> and it's hard to be both good at that, and at having judgment for when reusing something existing or copying a well-known technique is the right thing
  152. [01:10:31] <tantek> obviously crafting new building blocks is a necessary skill as well, but IMHO secondary to understanding how to reuse/repurpose existing building blocks
  153. [01:10:34] <yakk> tantek, most programmers will never be great craftsmen anyway
  154. [01:10:35] <othermaciej> few high-level building blocks can be used as is
  155. [01:10:41] <tantek> yakk, that's ok
  156. [01:11:00] <othermaciej> usually you have to change them or write a lot of glue
  157. [01:11:11] <yakk> tantek, its reality - and they don't need to be. All they'll be doing is connecting components in Visual Basic or reusing javascript toolkits.
  158. [01:11:13] <othermaciej> build vs. reuse is a tough tradeoff that depends on your requirements
  159. [01:11:16] <tantek> if most programmers are only good at rearranging existing building blocks, I would hypothesize that would solve most programming problems
  160. [01:11:16] <bewest> well, presence of glue is the hint
  161. [01:11:23] <tantek> bewest, precisely
  162. [01:11:32] <tantek> and open protocols and formats are that glue
  163. [01:11:50] <tantek> which is one of the reasons I chose to focus a lot of energy on microformats
  164. [01:12:07] <othermaciej> for instance in WebKit we use a third-party xml parsing library right now, but if XHTML ever became seriously popular on the web we would probably have to write a custom one to get good enough performance
  165. [01:12:30] <othermaciej> general-purpose components by definition do not take into account your specialized needs
  166. [01:12:39] <othermaciej> of course, most projects have fewer specialized needs than they think
  167. [01:12:43] <bewest> othermaciej: that's a different problem though
  168. [01:13:11] <bewest> optimizations come late
  169. [01:13:18] <yakk> I mean, how many people out there would write web browsers?!
  170. [01:13:22] * yakk glances around.
  171. [01:13:37] <othermaciej> it takes a total nutjob to write a browser, seriously
  172. [01:13:41] <yakk> yeah
  173. [01:13:48] <othermaciej> we don't want to associate with that sort
  174. [01:13:52] * mfbot (n=mfbot@69.55.232.130) has joined #microformats
  175. [01:13:52] <jibot> mfbot is a little bot kingryan put together with pieces from mediawiki to report on wiki changes and http://microformats.org/wiki/mfbot
  176. [01:13:56] <yakk> you know what's stupider than writing a web browser? Writing *two* web browsers.
  177. [01:13:57] * yakk sighs.
  178. [01:14:01] <tantek> welcome mfbot!
  179. [01:14:07] <bewest> yay
  180. [01:14:22] * mfbot (n=mfbot@69.55.232.130) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  181. [01:14:26] <tantek> yakk, othermaciej, indeed (re: web browsers)
  182. [01:14:30] <tantek> awww, come back mfbot!
  183. [01:14:43] <bewest> heh
  184. [01:14:52] * tantek won't be writing another web browser anytime soon.
  185. [01:14:53] <yakk> othermaciej, tantek, sadly, I just love working on the app people use all day long.
  186. [01:15:19] <othermaciej> yakk: why do you work on Flock then?
  187. [01:15:22] <othermaciej> (zing!)
  188. [01:15:25] <yakk> oooh
  189. [01:15:44] <yakk> othermaciej, (insert some comment about apple market share in anything but mp3 players)
  190. [01:16:07] <tantek> now now, be nice kids. othermaciej - shame on you.
  191. [01:16:21] <yakk> othermaciej, basically because I don't want to spend my time making pages lay out right...
  192. [01:16:41] * tantek resists pointing out CSS1 float bugs still existent in Safari. :P
  193. [01:17:38] <yakk> CSS1 is so Bubble 1.0.
  194. [01:17:43] <othermaciej> tantek: well, now that firefox has changed to our layout model we'll probably never need to fix them
  195. [01:18:12] <othermaciej> yakk: I'm just kidding, not much market share here to boast about
  196. [01:18:26] <othermaciej> tantek: the min/max layout model makes it nearly impossible to get some float corner cases right
  197. [01:18:38] * veeliam finds out that the tails extension for firefox has been updated to version 0.3.6
  198. [01:19:19] * tantek fails to keep resisting
  199. [01:19:31] <tantek> (ironically related to microformats)
  200. [01:19:49] <yakk> othermaciej, tantek, does dbaron's new layout work change their model to be more CSSlike?
  201. [01:19:51] <tantek> othermaciej - go to this URL in both Safari (latest public) and FF/Camino : http://kitchen.technorati.com/contacts/search/maciej
  202. [01:19:53] <veeliam> it even hasa spiffy new logo in the bottom
  203. [01:20:01] <veeliam> a bit more rounded, yes?
  204. [01:20:04] <othermaciej> yakk: it makes it more WebKit-like
  205. [01:20:09] <tantek> note that the little white on grey plus boxes do not function in Safari
  206. [01:20:13] <yakk> othermaciej, fast? :)
  207. [01:20:14] <tantek> but work fine in FF/Camino
  208. [01:20:17] <tantek> they are floated
  209. [01:20:23] <othermaciej> two-pass, computing min/max widths and then doing the layout
  210. [01:20:31] <othermaciej> yakk: they wish :-)
  211. [01:20:45] <tantek> so technically it is a CSS1 float / hyperlink activation bug
  212. [01:20:47] <yakk> othermaciej, every day I hack on mozilla I'm amazed at how fast it is :)
  213. [01:21:00] <tantek> but still a problem relating to CSS1 float support
  214. [01:21:12] <yakk> othermaciej, when I was hacking on webkit I was amazed how small it was after spending so much time in mozillaland
  215. [01:21:27] <othermaciej> tantek: probably just broken hit testing
  216. [01:21:38] <othermaciej> CSS doesn't specify hit testing at all so I could beg out on a technicality
  217. [01:21:40] <tantek> still - that tends to imply broken layout
  218. [01:21:44] <tantek> since hit testing is all about rectangles
  219. [01:21:52] <tantek> which come from layout
  220. [01:21:53] <othermaciej> yakk: when were you hacking on webkit?
  221. [01:22:07] <othermaciej> tantek: fwiw it's fixed in our SVN trunk
  222. [01:22:17] <tantek> really? cool.
  223. [01:22:20] <tantek> well done.
  224. [01:22:33] <othermaciej> tantek: there's no broken layout, the parent just wasn't acounting for overhanging rects I think, so would terminate the hit test too early
  225. [01:22:39] <tantek> then i won't bother finding a CSS "workaround" (ahem) to fix it. ;)
  226. [01:22:44] <yakk> othermaciej, hmm - probably right after the initial source drop of webcore. I was looking at is an alternative to mozilla for danger. Probably 3.5 years ago.
  227. [01:23:29] <othermaciej> yakk: it would have been hard to use it then, but it's getting trendy for mobile devices now
  228. [01:24:36] <yakk> othermaciej, yeah - it was a huge pain in the ass. I ported most of kwq to unix as an experiment. The nokia guys did the same thing later. The tie-ins to KParts were still really tight then too
  229. [01:24:55] <othermaciej> the code is a lot more portable now
  230. [01:26:19] * tantek drafts /wiki/xfn-faq as extension to http://gmpg.org/xfn/faq with initial entry on muse/romantic etc.
  231. [01:26:41] <yakk> othermaciej, so I hear. I'll take a look one of these days. Does it run & display on non-mac?
  232. [01:26:49] <yakk> (from svn)
  233. [01:27:11] <othermaciej> it's been known to
  234. [01:27:19] <othermaciej> the other ports have had somewhat spotty maintenance
  235. [01:27:26] <othermaciej> Qt port is seeing a lot of action right now though
  236. [01:27:51] * yakk nods.
  237. [01:28:06] <yakk> is it still build on kwq?
  238. [01:29:42] <othermaciej> no
  239. [01:29:51] <othermaciej> there is no kwq any more
  240. [01:30:05] <othermaciej> has it's own platform-independent porting layer
  241. [01:31:54] <yakk> nice!
  242. [01:32:04] <yakk> it sounds like you've been busy in the past uh - four years :)
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  244. [01:36:27] <jibot> mfbot is a little bot kingryan put together with pieces from mediawiki to report on wiki changes and http://microformats.org/wiki/mfbot
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  254. [01:49:20] <yakk> factorial joe
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  264. [02:19:30] <bewest> tantek: the more I think about, the more I'm confused over this "romantic" connotation with "muse"
  265. [02:19:48] <tantek> it is a romantic notion as opposed to a classical notion
  266. [02:19:49] <bewest> tantek: I don't recall any romantic connotation, and don't see it any definitions
  267. [02:20:36] <tantek> it is romantic as in emotional rather than the other relationship categories which are more logically determined by various characteristics
  268. [02:20:55] <tantek> thus being the romanticism connotation fits
  269. [02:21:36] <othermaciej> is a "muse" more romantic than a "friend"?
  270. [02:21:52] <bewest> that's a somewhat compelling argument, except that apparently most people interpret otherwise.... as othermaciej just demonstrated
  271. [02:22:04] <bewest> othermaciej: no
  272. [02:22:04] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  273. [02:22:14] <bewest> othermaciej: it's not that kind of relationship
  274. [02:27:02] <bewest> tantek: anyway, I guess you know my opinion ;-) if there's any other convincing I can do, let me know
  275. [02:27:07] <bewest> (identity)
  276. [02:28:38] * whafro (n=whafro@pool-71-163-73-250.washdc.east.verizon.net) Quit ()
  277. [02:28:43] <othermaciej> I think historically many well-known muse relationships have involved an undertone of unrequited romantic feeling
  278. [02:28:52] <tantek> the notion of identity is not incompatible with the notion of romanticism
  279. [02:29:10] <tantek> othermaciej, yes, certainly it is inclusive of that possibility, but not requiring of it
  280. [02:29:23] <tantek> it is a superset
  281. [02:29:49] <tantek> bewest, would you say that those who inspire us, define us?
  282. [02:30:07] <yakk> all I know is that my friend eskil has a 'muse' who he would marry if he had the chance
  283. [02:30:17] <othermaciej> isn't he already married?
  284. [02:30:19] <yakk> he's the only person who had someone they describe as their muse
  285. [02:30:50] <bewest> tantek: that is the Hellenic idea...
  286. [02:31:02] <yakk> othermaciej, well, he's getting divorced, but even before all that, his wife knew the place his muse held...
  287. [02:31:22] <bewest> tantek: music has an ethos... the idea was that if you listen to a certain kind of music you would /become/ a certain kind of person
  288. [02:31:26] <othermaciej> yakk: he's getting divorced? yikes
  289. [02:31:39] <tantek> bewest, there is some truth to your hypothesis
  290. [02:31:46] <othermaciej> in reality inspiration does not determine identity
  291. [02:31:50] <othermaciej> not wholly anyway
  292. [02:31:51] <tantek> yakk, muses can be exceptionally powerful
  293. [02:31:54] <othermaciej> regardless of what the greeks thought
  294. [02:32:08] <bewest> othermaciej: actually, it does... we are most like those we surround ourselves with
  295. [02:32:17] <othermaciej> I think of the existence and placement of "muse" as an easter egg in the spec anyway
  296. [02:32:25] <tantek> othermaciej, indeed, it is only one input, perhaps not a determining factor
  297. [02:32:32] <othermaciej> bewest: but surely our intrinsic nature dictates what we will be inspired by in the first place
  298. [02:32:32] <tantek> surround ourselves != muses though
  299. [02:32:35] <bewest> how else would you mark up your role model, though
  300. [02:32:39] <tantek> therefore, the reasoning does not follow
  301. [02:32:40] <yakk> othermaciej, yeah - its sad.
  302. [02:32:40] <bewest> tantek: true
  303. [02:32:48] <tantek> surrounding ourselves is closer to acquaintances
  304. [02:32:54] <tantek> speaking from XFN values
  305. [02:33:09] <othermaciej> yakk: what happened? or maybe this is not the right place to talk about it
  306. [02:33:19] <bewest> tantek: yes, I'm being too broad, simply to make the connection to identity
  307. [02:33:32] <yakk> othermaciej, they grew apart basically. they had issues they didn't deal with along the way
  308. [02:33:35] <bewest> the etymology of muse supports identity more than a kinship with crush or date
  309. [02:33:43] <bewest> or spouse or sweetheart for that matter
  310. [02:34:10] <yakk> othermaciej, half my friends in serious relationships (married/engaged/multi-year) seem to be splitting up at the moment. I don't like it.
  311. [02:34:39] <othermaciej> yakk: that's pretty depressing
  312. [02:34:49] <othermaciej> hope you don't get caught up in that
  313. [02:34:51] * othermaciej knocks on wood
  314. [02:35:26] <tantek> the depth to which a crush can affect identity is not to be underestimated
  315. [02:35:27] <yakk> othermaciej, thanks :) I don' t think I will
  316. [02:35:45] <bewest> tantek: yes, but that's true of all values... parent, child...
  317. [02:35:48] <othermaciej> all our relationships with others affect our identity
  318. [02:35:53] <bewest> exactl
  319. [02:35:54] <othermaciej> but that doesn't mean they *are* our identity
  320. [02:36:00] <tantek> yes
  321. [02:36:08] <bewest> correct
  322. [02:36:26] <othermaciej> unless you're, like, co-dependent or something
  323. [02:38:02] <bewest> othermaciej: I didn't say muse == identity ... as in the property of "identity"
  324. [02:39:02] <bewest> rather, by declaring your inspirations/role models, etc... you declare you want to become
  325. [02:39:11] <bewest> and that falls into the category of identity...
  326. [02:39:14] <othermaciej> a muse and a role model are not the same thing at all
  327. [02:39:32] <bewest> but a muse is closer to a role model than it is a crush or date
  328. [02:40:10] <bewest> and in addition, "romantic" is such an overloaded word it's probably not a good category name
  329. [02:40:22] <othermaciej> well a crush is just a muse for wanting to date the person in question :-)
  330. [02:41:00] <othermaciej> a role model inspires you to want to be like them, a muse inspires you to an action or thought that the muse him/herself would not perform
  331. [02:41:28] <othermaciej> (w/ implication of some sort of creative endeavor)
  332. [02:46:20] <bewest> othermaciej: "well a crush is just a muse for wanting to date the person in question" <-- this isn't true
  333. [02:46:30] <bewest> neither is the statement afterwards
  334. [02:47:12] <yakk> bah
  335. [02:47:18] <yakk> humbug
  336. [02:47:46] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.169-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
  337. [02:48:43] <othermaciej> bewest: the first one was a joke, and the second I stand by
  338. [02:48:44] <othermaciej> also
  339. [02:48:52] <othermaciej> this whole topic is so totally unimportant
  340. [02:50:28] <bewest> :)
  341. [02:50:42] <yakk> yeah
  342. [02:51:27] <bewest> The poet Sappho of Lesbos was paid the compliment of being called "the tenth Muse" by Plato.
  343. [02:51:30] <bewest> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muse
  344. [02:51:41] <bewest> the muses actually /did/ the things they inspired
  345. [02:51:47] <bewest> science, math, poetry, music...
  346. [02:51:57] <yakk> muse is also a kind of terrible band
  347. [02:52:03] <othermaciej> if you want to go with the classical definition then technically a Muse has to be a goddess
  348. [02:52:08] <bewest> so much so that they stood is a symbol for the thing itself
  349. [02:52:20] <bewest> Sappho was a real person
  350. [02:52:27] <othermaciej> whereas nowadays we would accept the concept of muses that are male or mortal
  351. [02:52:55] <othermaciej> sure, but Plato meant it as a metaphor
  352. [02:53:00] <othermaciej> whereas nowadays we would mean it literally
  353. [02:53:04] <mfbot> [[xfn-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-faq&diff=0&oldid=11204 * Tantek * (+14) added explicit TOC to make permalinking easier
  354. [02:53:28] <tantek> thank you mfbot
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  358. [03:41:02] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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  364. [05:54:21] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  366. [06:34:00] <veeliam> ?def veeliam
  367. [06:34:00] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com> and does webstuff with his quiddities. Really.
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  372. [06:43:07] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  378. [07:02:11] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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  392. [08:11:14] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  394. [08:38:07] <mfbot> [[xfn-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-faq&diff=0&oldid=11205 * Veeliam * (+265) Attempted addition of clarification of what muse means.
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  397. [09:06:49] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  400. [09:30:27] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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  405. [09:39:56] <BenWard> ’morning all
  406. [09:45:39] <BenWard> Just a quick note before I get down to work that This Week in Microformats is late this week, I'm hoping to get it finished tonight but if anyone has anything they think should be included feel free to alert me to it somehow during the day (µf-discuss, private mail, or tag it ‘thisweekinmicroformats’ on delicious/magnolia)
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  409. [10:24:49] <veeliam> BenWard, Tails was updated. I don't know if that qualifies for "woo woo" this week material, but just so you know.
  410. [10:29:00] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  411. [10:29:00] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  416. [10:42:45] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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  423. [11:02:42] <mfbot> [[User:CedricHuesler]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:CedricHuesler&diff=0&oldid=11206 * CedricHuesler * (+141)
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  428. [11:14:36] <jibot> Cloud is http://www.johnbreslin.com/
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  432. [11:56:40] <mfbot> [[page-summary-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=11207 * AndyMabbett * (+65) response.
  433. [12:01:11] <mfbot> [[page-summary-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=11208 * AndyMabbett * (+29) make link texts unique
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  436. [12:26:04] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  456. [13:50:14] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  465. [14:11:47] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  470. [15:02:25] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  476. [15:09:13] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  479. [15:09:40] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  486. [16:05:55] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  488. [16:15:02] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  490. [16:17:37] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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  500. [16:41:26] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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  505. [17:00:48] <mfbot> [[xfn-clarifications]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-clarifications&diff=0&oldid=11212 * Tantek * (+10) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  506. [17:03:44] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11213 * Tantek * (+404) added guidelines about not using punctuation in headings, not changing explicitly marked up headings to use wiki markup instead
  507. [17:04:30] <mfbot> [[page-summary-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=11214 * Tantek * (-94) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Ianloic
  508. [17:07:51] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11215 * Tantek * (+299) avoid changing heading text, avoid simple contradictory responses
  509. [17:09:43] <mfbot> [[xfn-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-faq&diff=0&oldid=11216 * Tantek * (-265) Reverted edit of Veeliam, changed back to last version by Tantek
  510. [17:11:04] <mfbot> [[xfn-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-faq&diff=0&oldid=11217 * Tantek * (+265) rolled back changes which changed links incorrectly, re-added new content that was added
  511. [17:11:45] <mfbot> [[xfn-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-faq&diff=0&oldid=11218 * Tantek * (+11) moved wiktionary defn of muse from top level see also to be a part of the specific FAQ answer for muse
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  518. [17:46:58] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  523. [18:06:27] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  530. [18:18:38] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11219 * AndyMabbett * (-41) How to Play - remove unsigned opinon, per third item.
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  533. [18:23:29] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11220 * AndyMabbett * (-10) How to Play - remove unsigned opinon, per third item.
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  535. [18:29:20] <mfbot> [[accessibility]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=accessibility&diff=0&oldid=11221 * AndyMabbett * (+458) Accessibility of this wiki - duplicate link text unhelpful
  536. [18:29:46] <mfbot> [[page-summary-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=11222 * AndyMabbett * (+87) restore answer
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  538. [18:30:52] <mfbot> [[accessibility]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=accessibility&diff=0&oldid=11223 * AndyMabbett * (+107) Accessibility of this wiki - mark itenm as resolved -
  539. [18:32:48] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11224 * Tantek * (+51) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  540. [18:34:34] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11225 * Tantek * (-1) previous revert restored removed content.
  541. [18:37:15] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11226 * Tantek * (+116) added positive suggestion to "avoid simple contradictory response" guideline.
  542. [18:37:51] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11227 * Tantek * (+1) typo
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  561. [19:01:32] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  562. [19:01:54] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
  563. [19:07:41] * cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-64-183-177-226.sw.biz.rr.com) has joined #Microformats
  564. [19:07:41] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  565. [19:13:47] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  566. [19:13:47] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  567. [19:17:24] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-extension-strawman * AndyMabbett * (+1240)
  568. [19:17:29] <mfbot> [[luna]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=luna&diff=0&oldid=11228 * AndyMabbett * (+70) geo-extension-strawman
  569. [19:17:36] <mfbot> [[mars]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mars&diff=0&oldid=11229 * AndyMabbett * (+70) geo-extension-strawman
  570. [19:17:56] <mfbot> [[luna-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=luna-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11230 * AndyMabbett * (+70) geo-extension-strawman
  571. [19:18:18] <mfbot> [[luna-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=luna-examples&diff=0&oldid=11231 * AndyMabbett * (+70) geo-extension-strawman
  572. [19:19:24] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11232 * AndyMabbett * (+199) geo-extension-strawman
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  574. [19:20:15] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11233 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Geo Extension Straw-Man Proposal - typo
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  576. [19:23:36] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11234 * AndyMabbett * (+324) Issues
  577. [19:26:07] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11235 * AndyMabbett * (+17) Drafts -
  578. [19:27:23] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11236 * AndyMabbett * (+78) Issues - another
  579. [19:29:44] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11237 * AndyMabbett * (+0) fmt
  580. [19:30:56] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11238 * Tantek * (-88) we don't need THREE links to geo-extension-strawman on the home page, moved to [[geo]] draft instead
  581. [19:32:27] <mfbot> [[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=11239 * Tantek * (+125) added [[geo-extension-strawman]] reference and Related Work section
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  583. [19:33:58] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11240 * AndyMabbett * (+76) Issues - another
  584. [19:37:04] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11241 * AndyMabbett * (+94) Issues - another
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  588. [19:42:47] <jibot> bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  589. [19:44:29] * cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-64-183-177-226.sw.biz.rr.com) has joined #Microformats
  590. [19:44:29] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  591. [19:47:53] <mkaply> Is it legal for an hReview to have fn and item specified on the same node? like <span class="item fn">Name of item</span>
  592. [19:49:08] <briansuda> mkaply, no FN needs to be a child of ITEM
  593. [19:50:07] <mkaply> briansuda: I wasn't sure - I had found a case of that on a web page and was handling it in my code. I'll make that an error case
  594. [19:51:05] <mfbot> [[hresume-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-feedback&diff=0&oldid=11242 * Tim White * (+208) General Comments -
  595. [19:54:43] <mkaply> Found it - http://www.pacificspirit.com/Restaurants-Vancouver.html has every item specified like that - <a class="fn org url item" href="http://www.akbarsown.com/">
  596. [19:54:59] <briansuda> that page is not valid
  597. [19:55:17] <briansuda> corkd.com is a good example of valid markup
  598. [19:55:33] <mkaply> That page is linked from microformats.org hReviews in the wild :)
  599. [19:56:23] <briansuda> we need to go through on a regular basis and verify the pages...
  600. [19:56:52] <briansuda> the best thing to do is make a note below/behind with the date that says something like "invalid item/fn mark-up 2006-12-11"
  601. [19:57:18] <mkaply> actually, those don't have dtreviewed either which is required as well, right?
  602. [20:00:16] <mfbot> [[hreview-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11243 * MikeKaply * (+83) New Examples -
  603. [20:02:11] <briansuda> no, (i think) the only thing that is required is the ITEM/FN
  604. [20:03:15] <mkaply> briansuda: need to fix the microformats cheat sheet then. It has dtreviewed as required
  605. [20:03:47] <briansuda> i just had a look and it wasn't, what is the r## in the lower right-hand corner?
  606. [20:03:53] <briansuda> r10 is the newest
  607. [20:04:01] <mkaply> cut off when I printed :)
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  609. [20:04:21] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com> and does webstuff with his quiddities. Really.
  610. [20:04:42] * mkaply goes to print a new cheat sheet
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  613. [20:06:58] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11244 * AndyMabbett * (+23) Issues -
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  618. [20:09:29] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11245 * AndyMabbett * (+10) Notes -
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  623. [20:11:56] <jibot> Whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
  624. [20:12:20] <mfbot> [[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=11246 * AndyMabbett * (+26) Related Work - clarify
  625. [20:13:51] <mfbot> [[Template:geo-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=11247 * AndyMabbett * (+131) add geo-extension-strawman
  626. [20:14:02] <mfbot> [[Template:geo-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=11248 * AndyMabbett * (-26) add geo-extension-strawman
  627. [20:15:38] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11249 * AndyMabbett * (+65) Geo Extension Straw-Man Proposal - expand intro
  628. [20:15:59] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11250 * AndyMabbett * (+10) Geo Extension Straw-Man Proposal -
  629. [20:15:59] <Whafro> I can see on the wiki that there were discussions about a job listing microformat... have those stalled? we have a use for it, and have sketched out our own ideas if they're useful at this point...
  630. [20:24:30] <mkaply> so if on an hreview someone specifices a class=rating", class="best" and/or class"worst", which takes precedence? or is that bad markup?
  631. [20:24:31] <tantek> Whafro, the job listing discussions were subsumed into general listing discussions see the hlisting-proposal
  632. [20:24:50] <tantek> mkaply what do you mean? they all specify different things
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  635. [20:25:28] <mkaply> tantek: I thought worst caused rating to be set to 1.0 and best caused rating to be set to 5.0
  636. [20:25:29] <mkaply> rating. optional. fixed point integer [1.0-5.0], with optional alternate worst (default:1.0) and/or best (default:5.0), also fixed point integers, and explicit value.
  637. [20:25:44] <tantek> rating is the rating, best is the value which indicates the best possible rating, worst is the value which indicates the worst possible rating. (tautological, I know)
  638. [20:25:57] <tantek> worst and best indicate the range
  639. [20:26:04] <tantek> whereas rating indicates the value
  640. [20:26:09] <tantek> within that range
  641. [20:26:12] <mkaply> ah. The word range isn't used in that statement at all. I get it now :)
  642. [20:26:15] <mkaply> thank you
  643. [20:26:16] <Whafro> tantek: I'd seen that, but it doesn't seem that hlisting has anywhere close to the amount of data needed for anything beyond craigslist-style job listings... perhaps I'm missing something, though
  644. [20:26:23] <tantek> mkaply you're right, that could be improved
  645. [20:26:53] <tantek> whafro - if you think more data is needed - then perhaps provide some research that demonstrates that with real world examples
  646. [20:27:08] <tantek> otherwise, cragslist-style job listings is kinda it - and even then hListing proposal does more than that, with tags etc.
  647. [20:27:25] <Whafro> well, the cases listed in the job-listing brainstorming had many more types of data
  648. [20:28:07] <Whafro> I'll dig through mailing list archives and see if I can piece together that conversation so as not to waste time ;)
  649. [20:29:06] <tantek> mkaply, you're right that the word "range" is not used, however, the parenthetical example hints at it at least: (e.g. 6 from 0-10)
  650. [20:29:17] <tantek> in the definition of the 'rating' property
  651. [20:29:49] <mkaply> tantek: Agreed. I think it might be more useful to split out worst and best in the example though to show them as separate classes they kind of disappear in that sentence
  652. [20:29:53] * Hixie (n=ianh@trivini.no) Quit ("Reconnecting")
  653. [20:29:56] * Hixie (n=ianh@trivini.no) has joined #microformats
  654. [20:30:10] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=11251 * Tantek * (+29) clarified that best/worst are for setting the range of a rating value
  655. [20:30:54] <tantek> mkaply, they are less used classes, and only in the context of when a rating itself is used, thus they are included inline to avoid crowding the top level list of properties
  656. [20:31:08] <tantek> Whafro - not job-listing-brainstorming, but job-listing-examples
  657. [20:31:46] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  658. [20:32:29] <Whafro> right, but -brainstorming consolidates the fields used in -examples, no?
  659. [20:32:55] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  660. [20:33:27] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) has joined #microformats
  661. [20:33:27] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
  662. [20:33:41] <tantek> Whafro - it *should* but often brainstorming includes things from left-field, or things from rarely seen examples, which violates the 80/20 rule of constructing microformats from commonalities found in real world examples.
  663. [20:34:22] <tantek> the *-examples pages themselves are supposed to extract and document the implied schema from each example, and perhaps summarize at the bottom. See http://microformats.org/wiki/examples for more on that.
  664. [20:38:44] <Whafro> tantek: the last major discussion that I see on the list seemed to end inconclusively, with several people interested in moving forward but no one doing so, and no clear conclusion that hlisting covered this need (the gist seemed counter to that idea)... is this something worth reviving, or am I missing something else?
  665. [20:39:19] <tantek> I think it is worth reviving - it would make a nice counterpart to hResume, and perhaps can even build on hListing.
  666. [20:39:38] <tantek> bbiab
  667. [20:39:41] <Whafro> word
  668. [20:39:42] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  669. [20:42:52] <mkaply> well this is frustrating. I have found many sites that have the rating embedded in the description as text. So when you get the textContent of the desceription, you get some stars as well. argh
  670. [20:45:11] <mkaply> making item and fn the same (not fn as a child) is quite common
  671. [20:45:48] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  672. [20:45:48] * mkaply can't wait to get this toolbar in the wild so people can see what I'm seeing
  673. [20:45:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  674. [20:47:05] <briansuda> mkaply, it might be popular, but it is wrong - i think alot of folks implemented things before the creator and wiki pages were fully updated
  675. [20:47:35] <mkaply> briansuda: I just went through the first half of the in the wild pages and I'd say about 75% are tagged incorrect
  676. [20:47:41] <mkaply> for hreviews
  677. [20:48:13] <mkaply> and this inclusion of the rating in description is going to drive me insane. I'm wondering if I should special case it and remove it
  678. [20:48:18] <briansuda> you should mark it on the wiki
  679. [20:48:33] <mkaply> briansuda: planning to.
  680. [20:48:49] <briansuda> i wouldn't make any 'special case'
  681. [20:49:27] <mkaply> I should include all .textContent of class="description" in the description, right? I'm not supposed to exclude subtags if I am parsing it?
  682. [20:50:03] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  683. [20:50:27] <briansuda> yes you should
  684. [20:58:38] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  685. [21:03:51] <mkaply> The fn/item thing must have been allowed at one time. A Lot of early hReviews appear to have that pattern
  686. [21:04:26] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
  687. [21:04:26] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  688. [21:04:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
  689. [21:07:37] <csarven> is there a relationship between hAtom `author` and hCard?
  690. [21:13:38] <briansuda> mkaply, i think early on there was an issue with the hreview-creator which as since been sorted and/or one bad example rippled across alot of implementation across the net
  691. [21:14:18] <mkaply> briansuda: A very lot. Wait until you see the page :(
  692. [21:14:59] <briansuda> i know, i have done my homework awhile ago for a GRDDL demo - i only found corkd.com as the only good source
  693. [21:16:43] <mfbot> [[hreview-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11252 * MikeKaply * (+1314) New Examples -
  694. [21:28:50] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("Don't touch /dev/null…")
  695. [21:32:37] * Prometheus^^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  696. [21:35:40] * Prometheus- (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  697. [21:41:49] <csarven> could anyone confirm that the hcard photo image is broken under Firefox Tails here http://www.csarven.ca ? (its on #footer address)
  698. [21:44:49] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  699. [21:44:49] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  700. [21:46:12] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  701. [21:46:27] <mkaply> Tails isn't working at all for me on your page. I did discover I need to handle tabs better in names (as does tails export)
  702. [21:47:31] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  703. [21:48:35] <csarven> sometimes i have to click on the mf icon twice to show it properly. in any case, im not sure why the image shows broken even though the resource exists
  704. [21:49:38] <mkaply> csarven: is tails yours?
  705. [21:49:56] <csarven> pardon?
  706. [21:50:36] * Prometheus^^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Connection timed out)
  707. [21:50:46] <mkaply> I was wondering if you were the author. Is the problem in Firefox tails or on your web page?
  708. [21:51:05] <csarven> no im not the author of Tails
  709. [21:51:24] * Prometheus- is now known as Prometheus^
  710. [21:51:45] <csarven> i am questioning if the problem exists solely on my Tails extensions or if there is an mf implementation error on my part
  711. [21:52:03] <mkaply> ah
  712. [21:52:14] <csarven> will try reinstalling Tails
  713. [21:58:43] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-8efba448c2a48586) Quit ("Leaving")
  714. [22:02:28] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  715. [22:03:34] <veeliam> csarven, tails has been updated
  716. [22:03:53] <csarven> 0.3.6 ?
  717. [22:03:53] <veeliam> and your card image is broken
  718. [22:03:59] <veeliam> yes.
  719. [22:04:03] <veeliam> http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard
  720. [22:04:04] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  721. [22:04:07] <csarven> i get the same result. i do not know why
  722. [22:04:13] <veeliam> his image appears
  723. [22:04:14] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  724. [22:04:42] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  725. [22:04:49] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  726. [22:06:14] <veeliam> i'm using 0.3.6
  727. [22:10:58] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) Quit ("Leaving")
  728. [22:19:22] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("Don't touch /dev/null…")
  729. [22:23:20] * briansuda (n=briansud@dsl-219-147.hive.is) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  730. [22:23:44] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ("Leaving")
  731. [22:24:04] * briansuda (n=briansud@dsl-219-147.hive.is) has joined #microformats
  732. [22:24:04] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  733. [22:25:45] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  734. [22:29:34] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-245-070.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  735. [22:38:39] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  736. [22:38:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  737. [22:38:39] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  738. [22:41:40] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ()
  739. [22:42:33] * saff (n=saff@213.1.255.149) has joined #microformats
  740. [22:43:07] * amanuel (n=amanuel@integrity.niagara.com) Quit ()
  741. [22:44:53] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  742. [22:44:53] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  743. [22:45:15] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
  744. [23:01:02] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  745. [23:02:12] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11253 * MarBry * (-3) Tools, Test Cases and Additional Research -
  746. [23:25:48] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  747. [23:27:47] * briansuda (n=briansud@dsl-219-147.hive.is) Quit ()
  748. [23:30:45] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  749. [23:30:45] <jibot> vmarks is in NC
  750. [23:31:45] * saff (n=saff@213.1.255.149) Quit ()
  751. [23:32:41] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11254 * AndyMabbett * (+3) rv. linkspam ----------------------------------------------???
  752. [23:50:08] * mfbot (n=mfbot@69.55.232.130) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  753. [23:54:06] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  754. [23:56:31] <veeliam> csarven, did you get your image to appear?
  755. [23:57:10] * mfbot (n=mfbot@69.55.232.130) has joined #microformats
  756. [23:57:38] <csarven> no i couldn't. the image is not physically broken and the mf afaik is okay. there must be something im overlooking
  757. [23:57:42] <csarven> it was working before

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