IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-01-16
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:42:54] <bewest>
hmmm I'll rattle a stick around the office
- [00:48:05] <bewest>
ok, Pallas is interested
- [00:48:10] <bewest>
I am
- [00:48:19] <bewest>
maybe one or two otheres
- [00:51:01] <bewest>
ok, I've got a head count of at least four interested, including myself
- [00:51:30] * bewest pings kingryan and tantek
- [00:52:00] * tantek receives ping
- [00:52:08] <kingryan>
pong
- [00:52:22] <bewest>
any idea how many people?
- [00:52:28] <bewest>
10 - 15?
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- [00:53:41] <KevinMarks>
I'm interested, though niall's thing looks interesting too
- [00:54:58] <tantek>
we're thinking about 6pm start time (Eric's sessions finish up at 5:30pm)
- [00:55:26] <tantek>
SOMA area if possible, but preference is cafe style food (non-spicy, veggie, meat options) + wifi
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- [02:05:25] <mfbot>
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=12542 * Tantek * (+162) added SF microformats dinner 1/18
- [02:06:56] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner * Tantek * (+154) drafted
- [02:07:07] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12543 * Tantek * (+41)
- [02:08:13] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12544 * Tantek * (+133)
- [02:08:32] <tantek>
ok folks, if you can come to the San Francisco microformats dinner this thursday, please add yourself to: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner and indicate your food preferences
- [02:08:35] <tantek>
and we'll figure out a suitable venue
- [02:09:39] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12545 * Tantek * (+157) please make venue suggestions
- [02:09:55] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12546 * Tantek * (+23)
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- [03:00:28] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=12547 * Veeliam * (+35) Attending -
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- [06:05:05] <mfbot>
[[User talk:ChristopheDucamp]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12548 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1708) @Andy : completely agree that advocacy-fr should be localized + added a non obvious question asked by Colin about uf in bank. How about a phone call ?
- [06:06:41] <mfbot>
[[User talk:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12549 * ChristopheDucamp * (+30)
- [06:09:42] <mfbot>
[[User talk:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12550 * ChristopheDucamp * (+189)
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- [06:16:11] <Matt1>
is hCard applicatable to form where user is inputting their information, like adding registration information ?
- [06:25:19] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12551 * Webf * (+124) Examples with some problems -
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- [09:03:53] <DirtyF>
hi
- [09:04:10] <mfbot>
[[hreview-profile]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-profile&diff=0&oldid=12552 * Brian * (+168) Added note that this profile is not an XMDP profile
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- [09:14:11] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=12553 * AndyMabbett * (+88) Issues -
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- [12:10:11] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=12554 * AndyMabbett * (+1008) Issues - sample code - please check!
- [12:13:02] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=12555 * AndyMabbett * (-4) Issues - fmt
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[[irc-people]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=12556 * BluesMoon * (+39)
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[[hcalendar-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=12557 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1697)
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- [18:04:08] * bergie wonders how to add Twitter status to a hCard
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- [18:04:39] <monkinetic>
bergie: try class=note
- [18:04:42] <monkinetic>
perhaps
- [18:05:18] <monkinetic>
though I'm not sure of the utility of adding dynamic content to a static (think business card) form of content
- [18:05:49] <monkinetic>
though a random quote gernrator would be another kind of dynamic content that I could see being useful
- [18:05:53] <monkinetic>
so, un, huh.
- [18:06:56] * Promethues^^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [18:07:15] <bergie>
monkinetic: at least Midgard polls hCards it is subscribed to periodically
- [18:07:31] <monkinetic>
bergie: hey that's cool.
- [18:07:51] <monkinetic>
is that docmented on the hcard implementations page?
- [18:08:42] <bergie>
not sure :-)
- [18:08:59] <monkinetic>
sounds like an interesting application of hcard+openid
- [18:09:00] <monkinetic>
as well
- [18:09:17] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
- [18:09:27] <monkinetic>
mkaply!
- [18:09:39] <monkinetic>
loving the addition of ma.gnolia to operator
- [18:09:39] <mkaply>
monkinetic: what's up
- [18:10:08] <monkinetic>
just wanted to give you props
- [18:10:57] <mkaply>
monkinetic: If people send me handlers, I'll do them. Some cool new features in the pipe this week - you can turn on highlighting of mfs when you mouse over them as well as when you select them from the menu
- [18:11:01] <mkaply>
plus right click actions on microformats
- [18:11:08] <monkinetic>
nice
- [18:11:18] <mkaply>
and I finally honor all the browser mouse stuff, so middle click opens things in a new tab
- [18:11:25] <monkinetic>
sweet
- [18:12:05] <mkaply>
The highlighting looks a little clunky, but it works
- [18:12:23] <monkinetic>
cool
- [18:12:59] <monkinetic>
is the highlighting done via css?
- [18:13:32] <mkaply>
yep. css border. since it doesn't affect size of the content at all.
- [18:13:39] <monkinetic>
could we use a user css to midify them?
- [18:15:04] <mkaply>
not at this point. i'd have to think about how to enable that.
- [18:15:17] <mkaply>
some things highlight by putting divs on all four sides
- [18:15:35] <mkaply>
It's hard to come up with something that is visually appealing
- [18:17:19] * mkaply goes to put another beta up just for monkinetic
- [18:17:46] * monkinetic chuckles
- [18:18:37] <mkaply>
http://www.kaply.com/operator/operator.xpi
- [18:18:46] <mkaply>
highlighting is off by default - turn it on in options
- [18:19:00] <mkaply>
I added way too many features after releasing the previous beta. I probably should have another
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- [20:14:57] <DanC_lap>
I see Brian Suda replying to Mike Samuel <msamuel@google.com> about hcalendar tests... is Mike Samuel a google engineer?
- [20:16:10] * DanC_lap loves it when people report detailed issues, making it clear that they're poring over the tests with a fine-toothed comb
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- [21:48:49] <monkinetic>
KevinMarks: where did you get that MW2007 podcast?
- [21:50:40] <bear>
macworld has it's podcasts listed here: http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/mwpodcast/
- [21:53:35] <KevinMarks>
It was on the iTunes store
- [21:53:57] <KevinMarks>
I found out 'cos someone at Apple mailed me after I complained about the stream
- [21:54:35] <KevinMarks>
course, now I could do edited highlights...
- [21:54:42] <KevinMarks>
or a chapter list
- [21:55:32] <monkinetic>
man, 1,21 GB
- [21:55:34] <monkinetic>
ow
- [21:55:41] * monkinetic starts the download anyway
- [21:56:33] <KevinMarks>
it's 640x352
- [21:56:53] <KevinMarks>
you can actually see the demos clearly
- [21:58:56] <monkinetic>
i bet
- [21:59:02] <monkinetic>
mine was bigger than that
- [21:59:28] <monkinetic>
or looked biger
- [22:00:22] * monkinetic checks a screenshot
- [22:01:00] <KevinMarks>
if I post it as a torrent, will apple hate me?
- [22:02:53] <mkaply>
In this syntax,
- [22:02:53] <mkaply>
<A title="visit the website of the British Ornithologists' Union" href="http://www.bou.org.uk/" class="url fn org">British Ornithologists' Union</A>
- [22:02:56] <mkaply>
What should the fn be?
- [22:03:10] <kingryan_>
text()
- [22:03:16] <monkinetic>
mkaply: textcontent
- [22:03:18] * kingryan_ is now known as kingryan
- [22:03:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [22:03:25] <mkaply>
so how do I know whether title= is supposed to be used for content or not?
- [22:03:33] <kingryan>
abbr only
- [22:03:35] <KevinMarks>
if it's an abbr
- [22:03:44] <DanC_lap>
title is only used on abbr, yes?
- [22:04:00] * mkaply thought he found a case where title was used for non abbr.
- [22:04:02] <kingryan>
mkaply: have you tried testing against our test suite?
- [22:04:09] <mkaply>
kingryan: nope
- [22:04:20] <mkaply>
I'll turn back on title for abbr onlt
- [22:04:29] <kingryan>
the test suite would help you answer such questions :D
- [22:04:31] <DanC_lap>
meanwhile, mkaply did make a test list of his own, which I found pretty nifty
- [22:04:49] <kingryan>
DanC_lap: yeah, is that available somewhere?
- [22:05:06] <mkaply>
http://www.kaply.com/weblog/operator-testing
- [22:05:09] <DanC_lap>
I think I bookmarked it...
- [22:05:26] <DanC_lap>
yeah... http://www.kaply.com/weblog/operator-testing
- [22:05:34] <monkinetic>
KevinMarks: this is 1027x590
- [22:05:45] <KevinMarks>
which is?
- [22:05:58] <monkinetic>
the keynote podcast
- [22:06:04] <monkinetic>
on itunes
- [22:06:32] <KevinMarks>
hm
- [22:06:52] <KevinMarks>
they put an even bigger one up?
- [22:07:13] <mkaply>
kingryan: where is the test?
- [22:07:28] * mkaply did search first
- [22:07:38] <kingryan>
the stable ones are published at http://microformats.org/tests/
- [22:07:46] <kingryan>
the repository is at http://hg.microformats.org/tests
- [22:07:54] * kingryan needs to spend some time working on tests
- [22:07:54] <monkinetic>
KevinMarks: apparently - how large was yours? (file size)
- [22:08:03] <KevinMarks>
1.2G
- [22:08:06] <monkinetic>
hm.
- [22:08:09] <monkinetic>
same here
- [22:08:10] <monkinetic>
weird
- [22:08:18] <KevinMarks>
sure it's nto just scaled up?
- [22:08:25] <monkinetic>
no :-)
- [22:08:45] <monkinetic>
that was the stream, playing straight from itunes
- [22:08:48] <monkinetic>
i'm downloading it now
- [22:08:59] <monkinetic>
after it finishes i'll check it out
- [22:09:47] * mkaply didn't realize microformat folk were already thinking about JSON
- [22:10:07] <kingryan>
mkaply: yeah, we haven't talked about it very publicly though
- [22:10:10] <mkaply>
I wonder if I should use this syntax for my internal structures
- [22:10:16] <kingryan>
I've spent a lot of time talking with individuals about it
- [22:10:23] <kingryan>
json?
- [22:10:36] <mkaply>
kingryan: that javascript array layout
- [22:10:55] <kingryan>
which is essentially json, no?
- [22:11:02] <mkaply>
kingryan: yeah
- [22:11:02] <kingryan>
just lists and objects
- [22:11:11] <mkaply>
yeah.
- [22:12:07] * mkaply doesn't handle this correctly
- [22:12:08] <mkaply>
<IMG class="fn" alt="Ryan King" title="Brian Suda" src="/me.jpg"/>
- [22:12:19] <kingryan>
fn = Ryan King
- [22:12:30] <KevinMarks>
well, lists and dictionaries
- [22:12:32] <mkaply>
that will be a fun little extra check :)
- [22:12:55] <kingryan>
KevinMarks: in javascript, 'dictionaries' are called 'objects'
- [22:15:18] <KevinMarks>
ah, OK
- [22:15:48] <KevinMarks>
objects implies they have code in to me
- [22:18:52] <mkaply>
kingryan: It would help if the testcases said what the correct results should be :)
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- [22:18:59] <kingryan>
they do
- [22:19:08] <bewest>
KevinMarks: yes, they do. in javascript, dictionary keys can have function objects
- [22:19:18] <kingryan>
hcards have vcards, which are the correct results
- [22:19:31] <KevinMarks>
but not in JSON
- [22:19:47] <KevinMarks>
which was the distinction I was making
- [22:19:49] <bewest>
oh, dunno about JSON (TM)
- [22:19:52] <mkaply>
kingryan: got it - in source. so <img class="url" src="http://example.org/picture.png" type="image/png" /> is supposed to take that url?
- [22:19:52] <bewest>
sorry
- [22:20:01] <kingryan>
yes
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- [23:02:50] * sportcrazy (n=Diaros@84-203-48-201.mysmart.ie) has joined #microformats
- [23:03:21] <sportcrazy>
hi y'all
- [23:03:38] <sportcrazy>
I am looking for a MF for describing sports results
- [23:03:50] <sportcrazy>
do you have such a thing?
- [23:03:52] <bewest>
like a news update?
- [23:04:04] <bewest>
or is that like an event?
- [23:04:13] <sportcrazy>
it's an event I guess
- [23:04:14] <bewest>
that's kind of like the results of an event
- [23:04:16] <sportcrazy>
an event result
- [23:04:18] <kingryan>
box scores?
- [23:04:51] <sportcrazy>
e.g. sport=rugby homeTeam=x awayTeam=Y homeScore=45 awayScore=22 etc
- [23:05:25] <kingryan>
well, you could start by making them hCalendar events
- [23:05:29] <bewest>
yeah, but that's only the last bit of it, right?
- [23:05:33] <ntoll>
hmmm.... what about ordered results (e.g. sprinting)? Use event mf within a result mf?
- [23:05:39] <bewest>
the most important thing is where and when it took place, correct?
- [23:05:44] <sportcrazy>
I was thinking about that
- [23:05:48] <sportcrazy>
and diving etc
- [23:06:00] <bewest>
that part is easy
- [23:06:07] <bewest>
ordered list
- [23:06:11] <sportcrazy>
the most important thing... that's debatable
- [23:06:26] <ntoll>
sportcrazy, the important thing is to re-use what is already there and only extend when needed after looking at how other ppl have marked this sort of thing up
- [23:07:02] <bewest>
I suggest you start experimenting with the who what when where of a sporting event
- [23:07:03] <sportcrazy>
sure
- [23:07:13] <bewest>
and then try adding on top of that with scores and stuff
- [23:07:24] <bewest>
perhaps with XOXO
- [23:07:44] <bewest>
with some small pieces to describe the game, resulting scores and other information
- [23:07:46] <sportcrazy>
XOXO?
- [23:07:47] <ntoll>
so so... my first thought was to use hCalander for when, hCard for where
- [23:07:55] <ntoll>
sportcrazy, marking up lists
- [23:08:35] <mkaply>
can class="include" be applied to anything or just <object>?
- [23:09:39] <sportcrazy>
k, thanks for your help guys, I'll go explore what's available
- [23:10:37] <tantek>
hCard is good for marking up hCalendar locations: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#hCard_locations
- [23:10:56] <ntoll>
http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern
- [23:10:57] <tantek>
mkaply - only <object data> and <a href>
- [23:11:17] * mkaply didn't know about the a thing
- [23:11:33] <mkaply>
and where is this headers= thing documented?
- [23:16:03] <kingryan>
mkaply: good question
- [23:16:17] <ntoll>
the O'Reilly shortcut on uFormats has a good summary
- [23:16:50] <mkaply>
looking at some of this stuff, I think there should have been more implementor input :)
- [23:17:05] <ntoll>
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/
- [23:17:30] <kingryan>
mkaply: we optimize for publishers, not parser implementers
- [23:17:39] <kingryan>
and many of us are implementers already
- [23:17:40] <mkaply>
some of these things require knowledge like "if you are a descendent of tag foo" which is not exactly easy to find out
- [23:18:00] <kingryan>
mkaply: we certainly have gaps in our documentation
- [23:20:06] <mkaply>
so <a href="#j" class="include"> is just another way to write <object data="#j" class="include">?
- [23:20:36] <kingryan>
mkaply: yes
- [23:22:10] <mkaply>
I hope noone think I'm being a pain about this stuff. I really am reading and trying to learn as much as I can without asking question.
- [23:27:58] <bewest>
questions are ok
- [23:28:04] <bewest>
part of the problem is the presentation available in the wiki
- [23:28:15] <bewest>
and there is an active effort to improve the presentation of what we do have available
- [23:28:26] <bewest>
so go ahead and ask questions
- [23:28:53] <bewest>
even in the case where it's answered, showing us where the pain points are helps us improve presentation of that information
- [23:30:04] <mkaply>
in the http://microformats.org/tests/hcard/37-singleton.html testcase - what is supposed to be the behavior if multiple items exist for a class that is supposed to have one instance - do I take the first or the last or is it undefined?
- [23:30:46] <tantek>
mkaply - first. this is defined in hcard-parsing
- [23:34:39] * davecardwell (n=dave@moose.davecardwell.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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- [23:37:54] <mkaply>
tantek: That's quite a plain text formatter spec you have there :)
- [23:38:13] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) has left #microformats
- [23:38:34] <tantek>
heh, thanks mkaply :)
- [23:39:01] <mkaply>
tantek: Firefox 2 actually has has a plain text formatter accessible from Javasript - I'm not using it yet
- [23:39:36] <mkaply>
tantek: question about white-space handling section in http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing - Are those statements mainly relatiing to description?
- [23:39:44] <tantek>
interesting. btw - any suggested improvements to the plain text formatting brainstorms are welcome - especially from folks who have worked on this problem themselves.
- [23:39:54] <mkaply>
Would you really have a <br/> say in name?
- [23:39:56] <tantek>
you mean "note" ?
- [23:40:02] <tantek>
yes
- [23:40:02] <mkaply>
tantek: and note
- [23:40:14] <tantek>
right, "description" for hCalendar and hReview
- [23:40:47] <mkaply>
I don't handle note yet and the only thing I really parse the HTML for is description - everything else I just do .textContent
- [23:40:55] <mkaply>
If I need the innards
- [23:41:52] <tantek>
i think that works fine. the note parsing stuff has been all by experience with real world examples of marking up bios etc. with the "note" property.
- [23:42:09] <tantek>
on actual websites, and then looking at the vCard imported results in address book applications
- [23:42:29] <mkaply>
trying to parse descriptions is painful. Sites like upcoming.org and eventful.com let users do anything they want for descriptions for hcals which is fun,
- [23:42:35] <tantek>
and it became clear that a few simple things (line breaks for blocks, bullets for lists etc.) made a big improvement
- [23:42:43] <mkaply>
Considering google calendar especially can't take any special formatting in their calendar...
- [23:42:51] <mkaply>
and yahoo doesn't accept HTML
- [23:43:02] <tantek>
sure
- [23:43:19] <tantek>
but they often turn plain text "formatting" entered by the user into HTML automatically
- [23:43:25] <tantek>
e.g. line breaks into BRs or Ps
- [23:44:04] <tantek>
so it makes some sense to attempt an inversion of those transforms to maintain something close to what the user typed in. obviously a round-trip is ideal.
- [23:44:25] <mkaply>
yeah. It's been kind of fun though. I'm to the point where my adding to yahoo and google looks better than upcoming and eventful. Which makes me think that using the microformat is better than what they are attempting with their internal data :)
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- [23:55:31] <tantek>
mkaply - bingo.
- [23:56:07] <tantek>
content publishers are not experts at lots of *other* random formats (vCard, iCalendar), nor are they experts necessarily of every-possible-consuming-website-or-application
- [23:56:42] <tantek>
nor should they really waste their time developing that expertise - it doesn't make sense for thousands or millions of website publishers to have to do all that research etc.
- [23:57:35] <tantek>
by simply publishing their pages with nice semantically rich microformats, all of a sudden the "need for expertise" can be bottlenecked into a per tool or per application basis
- [23:57:44] <tantek>
rather than for *every single website out there*
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