IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-01-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:54] <mkaply> tantek: which is exactly what I'm hoping people see with operator. eventful doesn't have 30 Boxes support, for instance. but now it does
  2. [00:01:20] <tantek> right - no reason for all the combinatorics of every site with every other site
  3. [00:01:26] <tantek> to have to be explicit
  4. [00:03:39] * davecardwell (n=dave@moose.davecardwell.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  5. [00:05:34] * mkaply rewrites include handling
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  14. [01:06:11] <mfbot> [[screencasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=screencasts&diff=0&oldid=12558 * JohnAllsopp * (+273) this year -
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  46. [05:24:21] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12559 * PeterDaams * (+177) Added Travellerspoint
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  52. [06:53:10] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12560 * Mike * (+578) Working straw schema - - Added more detail to working schema. Included 'hcite' as root element.
  53. [07:04:37] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12561 * Mike * (+933) Brian's Straw format - Moved explanations out of working schema list to separate section
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  55. [07:10:13] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12562 * Mike * (+259)
  56. [07:11:54] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12563 * Mike * (+0) too quick with the control-s: last edit changed some examples to use 'hcite' as the root class name. This edit fixes a typo that has been around since the beginning of the page.
  57. [07:20:00] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12564 * Mike * (+325) Working straw schema - added explanation of notation in working straw schema section
  58. [07:21:06] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12565 * Mike * (-4) Working straw schema -
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  73. [09:21:27] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12566 * AndyMabbett * (+70) New Examples - add exmaple to Travellerspoint entry
  74. [09:43:02] <Faerris> Hello.
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  84. [10:31:42] <julianstahnke> Flash 9 for Linux; the final is out.
  85. [10:31:53] <julianstahnke> oh bugger, wrong channel! sorry
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  98. [11:00:18] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12567 * AndyMabbett * (-70) Discussion of Straw Format elements - fixes
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  108. [12:11:45] <drewinthehead> anyone good with hReview?
  109. [12:12:32] <Matt1> drewinthehead, not really I just used the generator
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  111. [12:13:19] <drewinthehead> yeah, me too, Matt1 - the generator is good
  112. [12:13:35] <drewinthehead> I'm wondering if it's ok to next the reviewer inside the item
  113. [12:14:20] <drewinthehead> I think that's probably fine, but wanted another opinion
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  116. [12:16:45] <drewinthehead> the thing that's concerning me is the two vcards and potential for confusion
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  126. [13:17:33] <drewinthehead> briansuda: how's your hReview skillz?
  127. [13:17:47] <briansuda> good enough, what's up?
  128. [13:18:11] <drewinthehead> wondering if it's ok to include the reviewer inside the item
  129. [13:18:25] <briansuda> sure
  130. [13:18:38] <drewinthehead> both have vcards, which opens up possibilities for confusion
  131. [13:18:42] <briansuda> MFs don't discriminate on where NOT to put things
  132. [13:18:47] <briansuda> only where TO put things
  133. [13:19:00] <drewinthehead> sure, just wondering about the practicalities of it
  134. [13:19:01] <briansuda> well, a review is set off by class="reviewer hcard"
  135. [13:19:09] <drewinthehead> true
  136. [13:19:09] <briansuda> the other hCard is just ignored
  137. [13:19:12] <briansuda> do you have a link?
  138. [13:19:18] <drewinthehead> ok, i'll go for it
  139. [13:19:26] <briansuda> i have an XSLT that groks hReview i can compare the output for you
  140. [13:19:31] <drewinthehead> not yet ... i'll try this out and see how it parses
  141. [13:19:45] <drewinthehead> thanks ... i'll get something online in a bit
  142. [13:19:51] <briansuda> i'll be around
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  145. [13:27:03] <drewinthehead> so it should be ok to next the vcards directly too?
  146. [13:27:07] <drewinthehead> ^nest
  147. [13:27:23] <briansuda> hm..
  148. [13:27:25] <briansuda> that depends.
  149. [13:27:35] <briansuda> a nested vCard will have several of the same values
  150. [13:27:48] <briansuda> so if the inner most vCard had a URL, then that URL applies to BOTH
  151. [13:28:03] <briansuda> this is because there are/will be issues of nest vcards that are AGENTS
  152. [13:28:25] <drewinthehead> yes, and the photo property from hReview item will could apply to the hCard ... best avoided
  153. [13:28:51] <briansuda> exactly
  154. [13:29:16] <briansuda> so if you don't want the photo to be part of the hCard, then keep it outside of that, but inside the item
  155. [13:30:25] <drewinthehead> got it.
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  164. [14:17:00] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=12568 * AndyMabbett * (+90) Q&A - include-pattern-examples
  165. [14:18:31] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-examples * AndyMabbett * (+181) work in progress
  166. [14:20:07] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-examples&diff=0&oldid=0 * AndyMabbett * (+181) include-pattern-examples moved to include-pattern-examples-in-wild
  167. [14:27:59] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12569 * AndyMabbett * (+380) West Midland Bird Club examples
  168. [14:28:45] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=12570 * AndyMabbett * (+8) Related pages - dab
  169. [14:30:12] <mfbot> [[this-week-pending]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-pending&diff=0&oldid=12571 * AndyMabbett * (+108) This month in..?
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  172. [14:38:08] <bergie> hehe... "Do not use Microformats. They are a very bad idea full stop. Look at the following email phishing attack that could be constructed automatically if Microformats were used by yourself and your previous company..."
  173. [14:38:12] <bergie> http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/getting-started-with-microformats.html
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  177. [14:45:39] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12572 * AndyMabbett * (+14) Examples -
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  179. [14:46:35] <mfbot> [[currency]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency&diff=0&oldid=12573 * Adam Craven * (+13) Related microformats -
  180. [14:53:37] <mfbot> [[Template:include-pattern-related-pages]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:include-pattern-related-pages * AndyMabbett * (+541) new template (wording based on that for hcard)
  181. [14:54:19] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12574 * AndyMabbett * (+14) related pages
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  183. [14:54:40] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12575 * AndyMabbett * (+0) {{}}
  184. [14:55:41] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=12576 * AndyMabbett * (-681) related pages template
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  187. [14:58:27] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12577 * AndyMabbett * (+62) related pages template (&minor copy edits)
  188. [14:59:23] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-issues&diff=0&oldid=12578 * AndyMabbett * (+84) related pages template, heading
  189. [15:01:19] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12579 * AndyMabbett * (+39) Examples - copy edit
  190. [15:03:00] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=12580 * Adam Craven * (+961) /* Added CDs under Ben Sherman*/
  191. [15:04:36] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=12581 * Adam Craven * (+5) CDs -
  192. [15:06:12] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=12582 * AndyMabbett * (+1) typo
  193. [15:07:00] * DanC_lap (n=connolly@128.30.6.102) has joined #microformats
  194. [15:15:50] * monkinetic (i=redmonk@bia.crschmidt.net) has joined #microformats
  195. [15:15:57] * monkinetic waves
  196. [15:18:33] <briansuda> drewinthehead, did you get all the hreview data sorted?
  197. [15:20:24] <DanC_lap> briansuda, do you know Mike Samuel <msamuel@google.com>? do you suppose he works for google?
  198. [15:20:39] <briansuda> i have been sending him a few offlist emails
  199. [15:20:45] <briansuda> i would assume he works for google
  200. [15:21:01] <briansuda> if you google his name the two hits are a google blog entry about google calendar and..
  201. [15:21:12] <briansuda> a java app for RFC 2445 rrule parsing
  202. [15:21:38] <DanC_lap> oh... maybe I've seen his stuff before...
  203. [15:22:43] <briansuda> http://freshmeat.net/projects/rfc2445java/
  204. [15:23:26] <DanC_lap> I bookmarked it as http://code.google.com/p/google-rfc-2445/ <- http://del.icio.us/connolly/calendar
  205. [15:23:39] <DanC_lap> on oct 31
  206. [15:23:47] <briansuda> :)
  207. [15:24:03] <briansuda> that looks like the same guy and if he works for google calendar and is interested in hCal ...
  208. [15:24:13] <DanC_lap> indeed...
  209. [15:24:17] <briansuda> it is not hard to make the jump to the conclusion
  210. [15:24:36] * DanC_lap considers speculating wildly in a blog item ;-)
  211. [15:24:44] <briansuda> did you also see in the mailing-list BBC channel 4 is looking to mark-up their HTML with hCal too?
  212. [15:24:52] <briansuda> for show listings
  213. [15:25:08] <DanC_lap> no; I only follow the -dev list
  214. [15:25:33] <monkinetic> briansuda: saw that - that rocks
  215. [15:26:40] * briansuda searches for archived message
  216. [15:27:02] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-January/008129.html
  217. [15:31:09] <DanC_lap> thanks; while looking for it, I got distracted by bits about the conference schedule creator, censorship, etc.
  218. [15:33:31] <briansuda> the conference scheduler is a very cool little web app. Rapid hCalendar conference creator. Hopefully soon we can move it into Hg as well
  219. [15:34:42] <monkinetic> does confabb support hcal?
  220. [15:35:03] <monkinetic> wow, no
  221. [15:37:13] * DanC_lap has been waiting for somebody like Andy Mabbett to show up in uf-land; it was inevitable...
  222. [15:40:19] <DanC_lap> and tantek was just slightly impatient enough with him that Joe Andrieu felt compelled to play ACLU...
  223. [15:40:56] * danja (n=danja@host191-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  224. [15:43:54] <mkaply> Anyone up for a geo display namequestion? Should the text content of an abbr geo take precendence if the geo is contained in a vcard? Or should I always use the fn of the vcard if the geo is in a vcard?
  225. [15:44:19] <briansuda> do you have any stats from real sites?
  226. [15:44:24] <monkinetic> hm.
  227. [15:44:28] <briansuda> i would guess that it is probably the same thing
  228. [15:44:45] <briansuda> otherwise, probably the FN\
  229. [15:45:11] <monkinetic> well, in a vcard, the fn is likely my name, but I've linked the geo to "Gilbert, AZ" which would be the desired text label on the geo (for me)
  230. [15:45:54] <briansuda> this is true, but that is still where YOU are
  231. [15:46:10] <briansuda> in a vCard the GEO is not suppost to be a representation of an address, but of the PERSON
  232. [15:46:39] <briansuda> the same would go for a GEO in an iCal, you probably want to use the SUMMARY and not the location
  233. [15:46:53] * iand (n=iand@talis.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  234. [15:47:10] <monkinetic> hm.
  235. [15:47:48] <monkinetic> so brian: http://redmonk.net/about-this-site/ <-- what shoud that geo on "Gilbert AZ" represent?
  236. [15:48:03] <mkaply> http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/kidderminster/field.htm
  237. [15:48:08] <mkaply> is an example
  238. [15:48:32] <mkaply> the textContent of the geos is some UK identifier. So that's what I am using
  239. [15:48:42] <mkaply> but they are in a vcard where I could use the fn
  240. [15:49:06] * briansuda is looking and multi-tasking badly
  241. [15:51:53] <briansuda> the GEO in a vCard is tied NOT to an address because you can only have one GEO per vCard, so it is tied to the PERSON. Now, that person is at an address, so your mark-up is not technically or semantically incorrect
  242. [15:52:11] <briansuda> the GEO SHOULD follow you as you move in physical space, which is not practical
  243. [15:52:25] <monkinetic> huh
  244. [15:52:33] <briansuda> so it is normally used as place where you can normally be found
  245. [15:52:43] <monkinetic> (not until i can update it in real time from my *haha* apple iphone *muahahahaha*
  246. [15:52:45] <monkinetic> )
  247. [15:53:08] <briansuda> so, in a vCard, FN would make the most sense in the display
  248. [15:53:36] <briansuda> if you have a page of loads of hCards, in the drop-down (IMHO) it will be easier to see a list of names rather than some thing like 123 main street
  249. [15:53:48] <monkinetic> true
  250. [15:53:58] <briansuda> you can more easily associate "john doe" than "1234 main street" and click the one you want
  251. [15:54:51] <monkinetic> mkaply: maybe in the menu, do:
  252. [15:55:22] <monkinetic> [ + ] > hcards > steveivy > contact | maps | etc
  253. [15:55:35] <monkinetic> or is that too complex?
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  262. [16:04:56] <mkaply> monkinetic: too complex :)
  263. [16:05:04] <monkinetic> :)
  264. [16:05:44] <mkaply> So ignore the geo's textContent completely if it is in a vcard
  265. [16:05:53] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  266. [16:05:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  267. [16:06:30] <briansuda> i would say so yes
  268. [16:09:27] <mkaply> ok.
  269. [16:09:39] * mkaply goes to write a dom node walker
  270. [16:10:14] * monkinetic wonders is a stripped-down jquery could be used
  271. [16:10:30] <monkinetic> jquery's dom selection code is way easy
  272. [16:14:53] * mkaply wishes there was an easier way to check nodes up a parent chain
  273. [16:15:19] <mkaply> right now i get all the microformats in the document and then walk down each microformat and see if the node is a child
  274. [16:15:29] <mkaply> is there a better way?
  275. [16:15:30] <monkinetic> a child of what?
  276. [16:26:41] <mkaply> like is geo a child of a node with the class vcard
  277. [16:26:51] * danja (n=danja@host191-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  278. [16:28:11] <briansuda> ancestor:: is the best way in XSLT to look up the tree
  279. [16:30:53] <mkaply> briansuda: If I see something in XSLT, can I probably do it in Xpath?
  280. [16:31:07] <briansuda> yes
  281. [16:31:12] <briansuda> let me find something
  282. [16:31:37] * mkaply needs to learn more xpath
  283. [16:32:10] <mkaply> "//siteMapNode[@title='4']/ancestor::*"
  284. [16:32:17] <mkaply> for example
  285. [16:32:44] <briansuda> ancestor::*[name() = 'del' = false() and contains(concat(' ', normalize-space(@class), ' '),' vcard ')]//*[name() = 'del' = false() and contains(concat(' ', normalize-space(@class), ' '),' fn ')]
  286. [16:34:21] * monkinetic (i=redmonk@bia.crschmidt.net) has left #microformats
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  288. [16:45:12] * mkaply is liking xpath more and more.
  289. [16:45:26] <mkaply> briansuda: what is the del stuff?
  290. [16:45:51] <briansuda> that is a test we built, it isn't manditory, but in HTML there is a <del> element
  291. [16:46:08] <briansuda> if you find microformats a childs of that, then they were 'deleted' and shouldn't be considered
  292. [16:47:00] <briansuda> i would not worry about that too much
  293. [16:49:42] * Matt1 (i=Matt1@dsl-062-197-163-149.lohjanpuhelin.fi) has joined #microformats
  294. [16:49:47] <mkaply> oops. When I create the vcard for the geo it contains a geo :) too much recursion
  295. [16:50:12] <briansuda> :)
  296. [16:50:22] * mkaply already had a solution for that
  297. [16:50:22] <briansuda> that is why you should only take the first instance
  298. [16:50:48] <mkaply> briansuda: well in this case, I have a way to create an hcard that only gets fn - for cases where I don't need the whole content
  299. [16:51:11] <briansuda> right
  300. [16:51:19] <mkaply> There. fns for the locations. Sweet.
  301. [16:51:35] <briansuda> in vCard
  302. [16:51:49] <briansuda> in hCal it is something else :)
  303. [16:51:56] <mkaply> yeah :)
  304. [16:52:20] <mkaply> Someone in one of my comments mentioned this site
  305. [16:52:21] <mkaply> http://rosebank.org/
  306. [16:52:27] <mkaply> Must be a microformats person that goes to that church :)
  307. [16:52:46] <Matt1> is hproduct applicatable to shopping cart software ? and if it is, is it for product listing or product info page ?
  308. [16:53:02] <tantek> hproduct doesn't exist yet
  309. [16:53:11] <briansuda> you should see my REFERER log and all the people that use X2V
  310. [16:53:17] <tantek> the product microformat is still in the research phase
  311. [16:53:21] <mkaply> geo in a vevent is non standard, right?
  312. [16:53:31] * mkaply sees this on ocono.com
  313. [16:53:45] <monkinetic> mkaply: geo in a vevent makes a lot of sense though
  314. [16:53:49] <briansuda> according to the iCal RFC you can use GEO in an event
  315. [16:53:54] <Matt1> tnatek, ok thanks. I will hold off until it is finished.
  316. [16:54:06] <mkaply> ok. I'll make this code work for hcalendar as well
  317. [16:54:26] <briansuda> Matt1, you should look into what has been done so far, try to implement and let us know of issues/prolems, ideas, etc
  318. [16:54:44] <briansuda> you can help the format evolve from your real-world examples
  319. [16:55:32] <briansuda> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2445.html just do a quick search for GEO
  320. [16:56:08] <Matt1> briansuda, will do that for the next release. Just looking for a good starting point.
  321. [16:56:43] <Matt1> like what would be the best way to name classes for this: http://mattiputkonen.net/1-0/usability-c-4.html
  322. [16:58:50] <briansuda> you should use the most semantic names, but this should get you started http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
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  327. [17:05:57] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=12583 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Example - fmt
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  330. [17:12:28] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=12584 * Adam Craven * (+25) CDs -
  331. [17:13:05] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  332. [17:14:19] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=12585 * Adam Craven * (+4) CDs -
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  346. [17:43:17] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12586 * Mike * (+17) Working straw schema - Added date accessed to working straw schema, like I said I did an hour ago and forgot.
  347. [17:44:40] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  348. [17:45:34] <mkaply> briansuda: do you know how to do an ancestor expression that includes self?
  349. [17:45:41] <briansuda> sure
  350. [17:45:48] <briansuda> ancestor-or-self::
  351. [17:46:03] <briansuda> same idea as decendant-or-self::
  352. [17:46:37] <briansuda> it is best to avoid that as much as possible because it is pretty processor intensive as the tree can get big quick as you go down!
  353. [17:48:57] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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  357. [17:51:19] <mkaply> briansuda: I can't believe there was ever i time I looped through dom nodes to find things :)
  358. [17:51:21] <mkaply> xpath is nice
  359. [17:51:48] * mustaqila_ (n=moose@last.fm/staff/Muz) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  360. [17:51:53] <briansuda> once you get used to the syntax it is very useful
  361. [17:51:55] * mustaqila_ (n=moose@last.fm/staff/Muz) has joined #microformats
  362. [17:52:24] <briansuda> there are a few tricky things to wrap your head around that are not intuitive as in proceedural lanuages
  363. [17:52:53] <briansuda> but otherwise, you can do loads of VERY interesting things like check if two monster XPATHS are equal and it returns a BOOL
  364. [17:53:04] <briansuda> it is useful when doing FN==ORG without setting variables
  365. [17:53:36] <briansuda> if you need help, feel free to email me offlist
  366. [17:53:47] <briansuda> or grab me in IRC or IM
  367. [17:54:41] * briansuda needs to head out soon to find food
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  375. [18:12:14] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=12587 * Leikam * (+113) Upcoming - 2007-01 LA Get Together
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  381. [18:24:41] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=12588 * AndyMabbett * (+8) Tsk! ;-)
  382. [18:26:53] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  383. [18:34:17] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  384. [18:35:48] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-la-microformats-gettogether-planning]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-01-la-microformats-gettogether-planning * Leikam * (+630)
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  390. [18:48:55] <veeliam> tantek, is the dinner for Thursday night still on?
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  393. [19:06:43] <tantek> yes!
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  397. [19:07:33] <mkaply> are you guys going to do something at sxsw? (are people coming for that)
  398. [19:07:49] <monkinetic> w00: ma.gnolia has lightwaight uF feeds: http://wiki.ma.gnolia.com/Ma.gnolia_Feeds_Guide#Microformats
  399. [19:08:24] * mkaply needs to do hatom support
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  403. [19:11:42] <kingryan> monkinetic: I think we have some of those at technorati, too
  404. [19:11:49] <kingryan> but I don't remember where
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  407. [19:22:28] <mkaply> brian: is there any way you could create a way for me to send a html snippet to you and you return a vcard or ical? I'd prefer not to embed your code :)
  408. [19:23:30] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12589 * Veeliam * (+49) added self
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  412. [19:31:27] * julianstahnke_ (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  413. [19:32:34] <monkinetic> Ma.gnolia users: I've created a uF feature requests page on the ma.gnolia wiki: http://wiki.ma.gnolia.com/Microformat_Feature_Requests
  414. [19:36:13] * SamRose_ (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) has joined #microformats
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  418. [20:11:21] * bear is now known as bear_afk
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  420. [20:13:56] <factoryjoe> monkinetic++
  421. [20:14:08] * monkinetic chuckles
  422. [20:18:05] <mkaply> briansuda: there?
  423. [20:18:16] <briansuda> sure, what's up?
  424. [20:18:26] <factoryjoe> hey mkaply
  425. [20:18:31] <factoryjoe> have you seen wikidentity.com?
  426. [20:18:38] <mkaply> briansuda: It looks like your transform doesn't handle a non fully qualified URL in a vcard?
  427. [20:18:57] <briansuda> example?
  428. [20:19:16] <mkaply> http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/kidderminster/field.htm
  429. [20:19:51] <mkaply> briansuda: i learned recently that in Javascript, foo.href != foo.getAttribute('href')
  430. [20:20:15] <briansuda> ok, i didn't know that either.
  431. [20:20:22] <briansuda> i avoid client-side as much as possible
  432. [20:20:37] <briansuda> OK, how are you extracting the URL from that LINK? from xsltproc or from the PHP?
  433. [20:20:53] <mkaply> briansuda: in my case, I'm using Js so I can get at the href.
  434. [20:21:05] <mkaply> I wasn't sure if in your XSLT there was some way to get the .href vs. the attribute href
  435. [20:21:16] <factoryjoe> briansuda: what's your take on display:none microformatted data?
  436. [20:21:27] <mkaply> With firefox at least (I think it's DOM) .href is always fully qualified
  437. [20:21:39] <mkaply> getattr(href) is exactly what is on the page
  438. [20:21:46] <briansuda> if the data is important then it should be visible, if you are hidding data, then why would you want it in the vcard
  439. [20:21:58] <briansuda> but more imortantly, out-of-site, out-of-mind
  440. [20:22:01] <factoryjoe> have you been reading the list on inline styles?
  441. [20:22:27] <mkaply> briansuda: but what about geos? Geos aren't designed for human eyes
  442. [20:22:28] <briansuda> OK, i'll have a look at why the XSLT is not creating a fully qualified URL, it should
  443. [20:22:38] <factoryjoe> i don't want to advocate for hidden stuff; people are going to do it anyway
  444. [20:22:50] <briansuda> well, GEOs CAN be, and the ABBR allows for human-readablility, just like ISO dates
  445. [20:22:51] <mkaply> briansuda: I added a feature in Operator (private for my use only) that does your transforms so I can compare them to mine
  446. [20:22:53] <factoryjoe> from a parsing perspective, will you look at calculated css?
  447. [20:23:23] <briansuda> no, i won't do anything with CSS, i am not planning on ALSO creating a CSS parser :)
  448. [20:23:45] <briansuda> ok, i'll have a look at the XSLT hang on
  449. [20:24:11] <factoryjoe> so then you will parse hidden microformatted data?
  450. [20:24:36] <briansuda> yes, it will parse hidden data
  451. [20:24:51] <briansuda> i am JUST looking at the DOM tree and nothing to do with CSS
  452. [20:24:58] <factoryjoe> ok
  453. [20:25:00] <factoryjoe> good to know
  454. [20:25:10] <briansuda> it is more of a social issue, i can get at the META elements too, but we don't use those
  455. [20:25:22] <briansuda> infact the default browser CSS is to hide META elements
  456. [20:25:33] <briansuda> yuou can create in CSS
  457. [20:25:41] <briansuda> meta { display: block; }
  458. [20:25:50] <briansuda> and it makes it visible
  459. [20:26:10] <sreynen> even in <head>?
  460. [20:26:36] <briansuda> sure
  461. [20:26:46] <briansuda> it is just hidden in the browser default
  462. [20:27:01] <sreynen> interesting
  463. [20:27:05] <briansuda> yup
  464. [20:27:20] <briansuda> you can create your own bookmarklet to peek inside that stuff and display it
  465. [20:27:30] <briansuda> i think Eric Meyer has some same code to do this
  466. [20:28:25] <factoryjoe> he does
  467. [20:28:27] <factoryjoe> head {display:block;}
  468. [20:28:31] <factoryjoe> but as it's hidden it gets spammed
  469. [20:28:32] <sreynen> that opens up all sorts of possibilities
  470. [20:28:36] <factoryjoe> but so does text that's 1px or 2px
  471. [20:28:43] <factoryjoe> or the same color as the background
  472. [20:30:40] * briansuda is looking into the URL issue
  473. [20:32:44] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  476. [20:44:23] <briansuda> ok mkaply, i think the URL is working again
  477. [20:49:38] <sreynen> brian, i can't get any <head> elements visible in IE. works in Firefox, Safari, and Opera though
  478. [20:50:54] <briansuda> good to know
  479. [20:54:52] <monkinetic> mkaply: just clicked on debug under the operator menu... kickass!
  480. [20:55:37] <monkinetic> next up: rm dup contacts in the menu :-)
  481. [20:56:32] <mkaply> monkinetic: What do you mean?
  482. [20:56:42] <mkaply> (dup contacts)
  483. [20:57:08] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  484. [20:57:19] <monkinetic> mkaply: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/hreview/people/steveivy/
  485. [20:57:20] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  486. [20:57:34] <monkinetic> after it loads, look at the contact list in the operator menu
  487. [20:58:09] <mkaply> yeah. I noticed that when I was looking at magnolia.
  488. [20:58:30] <mkaply> I have code to remove dupes
  489. [20:58:49] <mkaply> The problem is I don't just want to remove hcard dupes because the name is the same - I need to look at all the data
  490. [20:58:55] <mkaply> I have to think about that problem
  491. [20:59:24] <briansuda> there has been talk about merging data as well, but that would be just as hard unless you had a UID like EMAIL
  492. [20:59:56] <KevinMarks> that is tricky one
  493. [21:00:08] <KevinMarks> Apple's address book merges them
  494. [21:00:10] <KevinMarks> by name I think
  495. [21:00:34] <KevinMarks> which works on a personal address book, as you end up disambiguating simialr naems yourself
  496. [21:00:46] <KevinMarks> and you're less likely to have me and the other Kevin Marks's in
  497. [21:00:46] <mkaply> an hresume for instance has multiples of the sae name, but they shouldn't be merged
  498. [21:00:48] <KevinMarks> much harder for a shared repository
  499. [21:01:15] <monkinetic> hm. fair enough
  500. [21:01:19] <sreynen> i'm working on a shared repository
  501. [21:01:32] <monkinetic> mkaply: does operator do that if they are loaded as includes?
  502. [21:01:49] <monkinetic> if each review on that page used include for the hcard?
  503. [21:02:03] <sreynen> i'm using a 2/3 of source URL, FN, and phone number
  504. [21:02:21] <sreynen> under the assumption that only one of those will change at a time
  505. [21:02:53] <mkaply> monkinetic: in that scenario, each review would still have a unique vcard that referenced a "master" vcard, right?
  506. [21:03:27] <monkinetic> mkaply: not sure, need to look at the include semantics
  507. [21:03:32] <monkinetic> but yeah i think that's it
  508. [21:04:07] <mkaply> So I would still display them all. In the hresume case, I try to disambiguate the entries by putting org in parenthesis after it
  509. [21:04:17] <mkaply> The fact is I need to be smarter about sorting/removing dupes.
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  514. [21:19:29] <mkaply> Are two tags that are on a web page that point to different URLs the same tag or different tags?
  515. [21:19:54] <kingryan> is that a brain teaser?
  516. [21:21:07] <briansuda> after you extract the TAG from the tagspace then you can take Unique tags
  517. [21:21:34] <kingryan> are we talking about tags or elements? or the TAG?
  518. [21:22:16] <mkaply> the rel=tag elements themselves.
  519. [21:22:32] <mkaply> I'm kind of having a philosophical problem with Operator that I need an opinion on.
  520. [21:22:52] <mkaply> In my mind, the goal of Operator is to provide the ability to take the microformat info on the page and do things with it that are not there by default on the page - link the information
  521. [21:23:21] <mkaply> So for instance, right now I provide a way to open the web page for a contact in Operator. In my mind, this is probably unnecessary because there is a link on the page
  522. [21:23:52] <mkaply> Someone suggested adding opening link web pages to the tag menu, but again, this seemed wrong to me because those links are on the page
  523. [21:24:11] <mkaply> Plus, if I did that, you might have multiple of the same links because they point to different URLs
  524. [21:24:50] <mkaply> Any opinions on that thought?
  525. [21:31:23] <sreynen> what about taking the tags and linking to them in multiple tag spaces?
  526. [21:37:39] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  527. [21:39:09] <mkaply> sreynen: that's really what I do today. The idea being that the microformat information is the fact that it is a "tag" and I can link that to other tagspaces
  528. [21:39:50] <mkaply> (I actually renamed Tag(s) in Operator to Tagspace(s)
  529. [21:40:14] <sreynen> for many of the tagspaces, you could use APIs to pull in related information
  530. [21:40:30] <sreynen> e.g. images from flickr
  531. [21:41:37] <briansuda> there are lots of posiblities, such as setting your 'preferred' tags space
  532. [21:41:59] <briansuda> then any tag you find you you can tack onto your preferred tag space
  533. [21:42:24] <briansuda> much like the browser search box, preferred search engine
  534. [21:43:58] <KevinMarks> sreynen: indeed - that is what the tehcnorati tags pages do
  535. [21:44:04] <KevinMarks> always did, actually
  536. [21:44:15] <KevinMarks> though recently we've got much mroe tag sources
  537. [21:47:08] <mkaply> but is my conclusion about the semantic information correct? The goal is to provide new ways to use the semantic information on the page, not just to provide access in a new way?
  538. [21:49:03] <KevinMarks> well, the idea of tagspaces is to provide alternatives for disambiguation purposes if desired by the author
  539. [21:50:15] <KevinMarks> how the parser handles it is up to them
  540. [21:50:29] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.10) has left #microformats
  541. [21:51:01] <KevinMarks> at Technorati we ignore tagspaces in our results, and provide references to multiple other common tags
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  550. [22:21:33] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=12590 * DimitriosZachariadis * (+12) Drafts -
  551. [22:33:04] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12591 * AndyMabbett * (+118) "object" or "a"?
  552. [22:33:25] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12592 * AndyMabbett * (+12) '''
  553. [22:33:51] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12593 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Include Pattern Examples in the Wild - ,
  554. [22:36:56] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) has joined #microformats
  555. [22:37:22] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=12594 * AndyMabbett * (+122) Adding Microformats to Web Services - Microformat Feature Requests on ma.gnolia wiki
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  559. [23:04:24] <mfbot> [[hcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12595 * AndyMabbett * (+293) wikidentity.com
  560. [23:04:44] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  561. [23:05:20] <mfbot> [[hcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12596 * AndyMabbett * (+13)
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  564. [23:12:42] <mfbot> [[hcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12597 * AndyMabbett * (-1) New Implementations -
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  572. [23:45:44] <mfbot> [[Template:hcard-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hcard-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=12598 * AndyMabbett * (+68) advocacy
  573. [23:46:41] <mfbot> [[Template:hcalendar-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hcalendar-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=12599 * AndyMabbett * (+81) advocacy
  574. [23:48:02] <mfbot> [[Template:hreview-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hreview-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=12600 * AndyMabbett * (+97) advocacy
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  576. [23:49:28] <mfbot> [[Template:hatom-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hatom-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=12601 * AndyMabbett * (+98) advocacy (& copy edits)
  577. [23:50:34] <mfbot> [[Template:geo-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=12602 * AndyMabbett * (+79) advocacy
  578. [23:51:35] <mfbot> [[Template:geo-related-pages]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=12603 * AndyMabbett * (+0) cap
  579. [23:52:31] <mfbot> [[Template:rel-tag-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:rel-tag-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=12604 * AndyMabbett * (+76) advocacy

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