IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-01-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

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[01:36:20] <aconbere|work> I'm looking into what it takes to propose a microformat for code snippets, there has been one post that I can find to the mailing list about making something like this and a followup suggestion to start a wiki page. I'm wondering how much time/leeway there is given for starting a wiki page and the formatting, collecting information on the proposal etc. Should more posts be made to the mailing list first (just trying to get a feel for how
[01:36:53] <Baristo> Hi folks.
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[01:39:41] <Baristo> Hey there KevinMarks.
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[02:03:19] <bewest> tantek: is the -new list up yet?
[02:03:37] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12810 * MikeNZGovt * (+2864) ISO6709 -
[02:04:05] <tantek> bewest, I believe Ryan was/is working on it
[02:04:51] <bewest> ah ok
[02:04:57] <bewest> was going to direct aconbere|work there
[02:05:16] <bewest> and if it's up, it needs to be listed at <http://microformats.org/discuss/>
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[02:05:39] <JamieKnight> hiya,
[02:05:48] <tantek> bewest, right - when it is up it will be listed there
[02:05:56] <tantek> whoa that's a lot of GEO information added to the hcard-brainstorming page
[02:06:08] <tantek> I wonder if GEO brainstorming is now big enough to warrant it's own page?
[02:06:13] <tantek> its own page even :)
[02:06:28] <JamieKnight> WOW, i see your point
[02:06:31] <tantek> perhaps after the lat long shorthand proposal is resolved.
[02:07:02] <JamieKnight> tantek: i have jest a met a rpoblem which i think is perfect for a microformat,
[02:07:33] <JamieKnight> although i am not sure what "language" use in a proposal highlighing a problem,
[02:07:44] <tantek> first don't start with a proposal
[02:07:52] <tantek> start with *just* describing the problem
[02:07:58] <tantek> then gather real world examples with URLs
[02:08:06] <tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/process for details
[02:08:09] <JamieKnight> sorry, i mean the writing side of it,
[02:08:19] <JamieKnight> i mean, the language, literally that,
[02:08:26] <JamieKnight> I am not good with formal language,
[02:08:32] <JamieKnight> do you have any advice?
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[02:08:58] <JamieKnight> if i write somthing, and put it on the wiki will other people help with the "language" side of it?
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[02:09:57] <JamieKnight> actully, i think i might just tell you the problem now, it might make it a bit more simplar, i dont really know how to define it i know what is wrong and why but what it could be called i am not sure.
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[02:13:48] <JamieKnight> it says i should discuss it before i write anything,
[02:16:29] <JamieKnight> i am going to go and do some work and then write to the mailing list with it, i think it is more suitible like that.
[02:16:33] <JamieKnight> thanks for the help./
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[02:19:40] <Baristo> Hi again folks.
[02:19:47] <JamieKnight> hiya, Baristo
[02:19:54] <Baristo> Heya JamieKnight! :)
[02:19:58] <JamieKnight> baristo, do you like adverts?
[02:20:16] <Baristo> Only sponsored and beautiful inline ones. :)
[02:20:34] <Baristo> http://www.corkd.com/ pulls them off perfectly.
[02:21:15] <JamieKnight> i have just looked at a page which has made me think about somthing microformatty to do with adverts
[02:21:23] <Baristo> Oh yeah?
[02:23:12] <JamieKnight> http://www.howtoforge.com/ubuntu_debian_lamp_server
[02:23:15] <JamieKnight> if there was a advert format, then it would mean that the metadata the advert system relies on woud be present so this doesent happen.
[02:23:16] <JamieKnight> and, as the metadata would be present on the page it would mean, that somone could for example, filter adverts by thier intrests, using tags in the advert format.
[02:23:18] <JamieKnight> A couple of varibles, is all it take, i was thinking that campainger and campaing would seem to be correct, although i think there is somthing better there,
[02:23:19] <JamieKnight> what do you think?
[02:23:37] <JamieKnight> what does Oh yeah? mean?
[02:24:05] <Baristo> It means, "Do tell", or "Do go on".
[02:24:12] <JamieKnight> okay, thank you,
[02:24:14] <Baristo> At least in my language. :)
[02:24:29] <JamieKnight> I am writing a a Advert system now, and i know know what i am going to be asking.
[02:24:53] <JamieKnight> I am going to include that data so the system can display better adverts, and the user gets a "fairer" page view,
[02:25:01] <JamieKnight> I am blogging about it now,
[02:25:12] <Baristo> Ah interesting! It's something to look into for sure.
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[02:25:48] <JamieKnight> i was thinking, that maybe a format for adverts would be benifficcial to the user, and the advertiser,
[02:26:07] <Baristo> Where's Dan C when you need him? I have a lovely branding/icon job for him. hehe
[02:26:39] <JamieKnight> the advertiser, might like to tag up thier adverts because they then know it is targeting better, and the user can use the format and a simple DOM script to hide them all.
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[02:27:15] <JamieKnight> lets say all the adverts lived inside thier own hAdvert div, then you could set the dom to remove all of those DIvs, maybe as a buttom,
[02:27:27] <JamieKnight> or, as a time delay,
[02:27:46] <JamieKnight> so the adverts show for 30 secounds then disspear, leavinf you with content.
[02:28:01] <JamieKnight> Baristo: can i have a go at a logo?
[02:28:12] <JamieKnight> Ilike making and desinging stuff, i would be intrested in the challenge
[02:28:27] <Baristo> If you want to take a stab at it, sure.
[02:28:48] <JamieKnight> do you want to email me you "spec" and i will put somthing together tommorow moreing?
[02:28:58] <JamieKnight> then you dont need to publicly reveal the name,
[02:29:32] <Baristo> Are you familiar with vector drawing and schools of art?
[02:29:37] <JamieKnight> yes,
[02:29:42] <JamieKnight> I use fireworks,
[02:29:45] <Baristo> Ah lovely.
[02:29:52] <JamieKnight> www.portfolio-design.devintart.com
[02:29:52] <Baristo> A fun little program.
[02:30:01] <JamieKnight> fireworks is great for site templates,
[02:30:20] <JamieKnight> as it is vector based, when you want to play about with proportion it is powerful,
[02:30:29] <aconbere|work> heh
[02:30:42] <aconbere|work> I turn away to work on it for a second and people respond in secret
[02:30:59] <JamieKnight> aconbere|work: you web cam has been turned agait you,
[02:31:04] <JamieKnight> we must confess :D
[02:31:28] <aconbere|work> bewest: I figured I would just post another email to the mailing list with a more specific list of use cases and a better example format
[02:31:43] <JamieKnight> what format is this aconbere|work ?
[02:32:08] <aconbere|work> JamieKnight: I'm looking at building up discussion on a code microformat
[02:32:14] <aconbere|work> code/code-snippet
[02:32:20] <JamieKnight> intresting,
[02:32:29] <JamieKnight> so, for example code for ..erm ... example.
[02:32:51] <JamieKnight> so you could pharse together the demo document without them needing to add a download,
[02:32:51] <aconbere|work> well any programing language examples that are published on the web
[02:32:56] <JamieKnight> yeah,
[02:33:02] <JamieKnight> could be VERY useful,
[02:33:19] <aconbere|work> since really they should contain, authors lists, license, langauge, language version, etc.
[02:33:26] <JamieKnight> yeah,
[02:33:44] <JamieKnight> although, wouldent some argue the example code s "as is"
[02:34:08] <pnhChris> do people really post code with all that meta data on the web?
[02:34:16] <aconbere|work> some might, but being verbose reduces the confusion
[02:34:32] <aconbere|work> pnhChris: most publish that sort of information as comments internal to the code snippet
[02:34:33] <JamieKnight> i have never added that msh metadata
[02:34:53] <aconbere|work> a comment block for the author and license for instance
[02:35:06] <aconbere|work> the language and version are hidden somewhere in the block of text generaly
[02:35:23] <pnhChris> i'll be sure to watch out for your thoughts on the topic... don't want to bog you down with 'but...."s out of the gate... curious to see what you're thinking
[02:35:24] <aconbere|work> authors are assumed to be whoever posted the code example
[02:35:35] <aconbere|work> heh
[02:35:40] <JamieKnight> aconbere|work: have you though of some of the uses,
[02:35:49] <JamieKnight> there are a few which seem to be VERY apprent to me,
[02:35:57] <pnhChris> i do see a few gotchas lurking however
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[02:36:28] <aconbere|work> I made a quick list of sites that could make use of it, some places are more clearly structured for this kind of thing.
[02:36:47] <JamieKnight> I write a lot of tutorials, and i go though somthing step by step, then i provide a download of all the steps added together. If it was possible for that data to come form the tutorial itself then i could write a parser to creat the download for me.
[02:36:48] <aconbere|work> Trac pages for projects like Django/Ruby/etc. make huge use of embedded code
[02:36:52] <aconbere|work> MSDN
[02:37:01] <aconbere|work> right
[02:37:05] <JamieKnight> textpettern - textbook.
[02:37:11] <JamieKnight> pixel2life
[02:37:12] <aconbere|work> and the ability to track and store code examples from a web page easily
[02:37:17] <JamieKnight> yeah,
[02:37:21] <JamieKnight> and check for updates,
[02:37:35] <pnhChris> primairly being real world code posting usage, what interoperability you're reaching for, and, well, the big one being what classification criteria you're using/naming conventions
[02:38:01] <aconbere|work> pnhChris: you just used a bunch of words I don't understand
[02:38:06] <aconbere|work> can you dumb it down for me a bit
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[02:38:13] <pnhChris> well
[02:38:16] <JamieKnight> interoperability - how does it comnicate with other
[02:38:27] <pnhChris> do people really publish code with all that meta data
[02:38:27] <JamieKnight> how would you order the code
[02:38:34] <JamieKnight> pnhChris: yes
[02:38:36] <JamieKnight> brb,
[02:38:54] <aconbere|work> pnhChris: just talk for abit about out it
[02:38:57] <pnhChris> what are you reaching for with the format / how would it help consumption of the content
[02:39:03] <aconbere|work> I don't feel like interjecting each time
[02:39:35] <aconbere|work> should I include this kind of information in my email to the mailing list?
[02:39:57] <Baristo> Well I must say, this custom little bowl of chili I've made is quiet tasty. I've added salsa, pepperjack cheese, oregano and pepper.
[02:40:35] <JamieKnight> aconbere|work: have you though about maybe blogging about it,
[02:40:38] <pnhChris> and ... then there's the tagging/classification schemes discussion.. c++ vs. cpp... is it php or wordpress template code
[02:40:52] <JamieKnight> being breif in you message so the email is not tooo long then give a link to you blog for more info?
[02:40:55] <aconbere|work> JamieKnight: I will be
[02:41:04] <JamieKnight> language covers that,
[02:41:11] <aconbere|work> yeah I understand that :)
[02:41:11] <pnhChris> aconbere|work: i wouldn't say you'd have to wait till you have time to think things through before posting on the topic
[02:41:13] <JamieKnight> like the type declaration.
[02:41:26] <JamieKnight> generate some more ideas,
[02:41:31] <pnhChris> just get the wheels turning and expect to read those types of concerns up front
[02:41:34] <JamieKnight> maybe write somthing in high detail
[02:41:44] <aconbere|work> pnhChris: I guess I'm just woried about it being passed over like it was before, making a sharp and too the point arguement right off the bat would be nice :)
[02:41:59] <pnhChris> also, take a look at the process docs on the wiki + start looking for content examples on the web now
[02:42:13] <JamieKnight> http://phpclasses.fonant.com/browse/package/1940.html
[02:42:14] <aconbere|work> pnhChris: yeah I'm working on compiling that information currently
[02:42:35] <JamieKnight> aconbere|work: have you checked the tutorial sites, and the CMs help sites.
[02:42:54] <JamieKnight> i have a list on my resorce bookmarks i would be happyt o e-mail you,
[02:43:14] <aconbere|work> yeah, just doing a small google search for a couple key words dumps more links than I care to look at all with relevent data
[02:43:26] <aconbere|work> JamieKnight: aconbere@gmail.com :)
[02:43:31] <aconbere|work> I would love to have them
[02:43:37] <pnhChris> JamieKnight: you need to register to see those files JamieKnight
[02:43:48] <JamieKnight> that was a rushed example,
[02:43:57] <JamieKnight> there ar eplenty where it is a copy and paste files.
[02:44:06] <JamieKnight> field, i dont have those links with me,
[02:44:12] <aconbere|work> pnhChris: and I think regardless the site shows the metadata
[02:44:29] <JamieKnight> which is the point i was trying to make,
[02:44:35] <JamieKnight> image a code sollecting site,
[02:44:43] <JamieKnight> agragation site, that would be awesome,
[02:44:55] <aconbere|work> Is it apropriate in my example to talk about/show interoperability with other microformats?
[02:45:09] <aconbere|work> for instance and authors list might as well be a list of hCards
[02:45:14] <JamieKnight> i assume tags, and hcar would be included>
[02:45:22] <JamieKnight> or, mayeb a list of where to get thier cards,
[02:45:26] <JamieKnight> if they have the,
[02:45:41] <JamieKnight> otherwise, if there is 40 people contributing example....
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[02:48:57] <Baristo> Welcome back KevinMarks.
[02:49:41] <aconbere|work> anyways thanks for all the suggestions
[02:50:04] <aconbere|work> I'll try to go nail down some very specific examples of the metadata usage in the web right now
[02:50:19] <aconbere|work> and work up some examples of how this would be useful to users and publishers
[02:50:41] <aconbere|work> (and work on my example format)
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[04:33:39] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=12811 * ChristopheDucamp * (+63) Profils en ligne -
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[05:02:06] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[06:01:49] <JamieKnight> hiya,
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[06:20:33] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=12812 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2688) synchro in progress
[06:21:00] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=12813 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Auto-Décoverte pour XFN -
[06:22:27] <JamieKnight> :(
[06:22:33] * JamieKnight feels lonely.
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[06:26:38] <aconbere|mobile> I just feel tired
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[06:26:59] <JamieKnight> aconbere|hiya,
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[06:27:46] <JamieKnight> i have resolved the problem i came in here for now,
[06:28:06] <JamieKnight> hoping to catch some discussion about an idea i had for a new format before i start writing it up.
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[06:41:51] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=12814 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1424) content synchro - to be translated
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[06:46:33] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[06:47:48] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=12815 * ChristopheDucamp * (+211) mini hCard vers hCard étendue -
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[07:06:09] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=12816 * ChristopheDucamp * (+410) améliorations geo -
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[07:06:22] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[07:12:25] <mfbot> [[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=12817 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Exemples dans la jungle - typo
[07:16:02] <mfbot> [[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=12818 * ChristopheDucamp * (+232) Exemples dans la jungle -
[07:16:18] <mfbot> [[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=12819 * ChristopheDucamp * (-3) Exemples dans la jungle -
[07:17:54] <mfbot> [[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=12820 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Exemples dans la jungle - typo
[07:19:20] <mfbot> [[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=12821 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Exemples dans la jungle -
[07:19:41] <mfbot> [[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=12822 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Exemples dans la jungle -
[07:22:02] <mfbot> [[examples-in-the-wild-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/examples-in-the-wild-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+839) creation
[07:25:03] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-fr&diff=0&oldid=12823 * ChristopheDucamp * (-200)
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[07:28:14] <mfbot> [[Template:include-pattern-related-pages-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:include-pattern-related-pages-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+630)
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[07:30:38] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[07:31:45] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-examples-in-wild-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-examples-in-wild-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+856)
[07:34:56] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-faq-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-faq-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+633)
[07:35:22] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-faq-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-faq-fr&diff=0&oldid=12824 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2)
[07:35:54] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-faq-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-faq-fr&diff=0&oldid=12825 * ChristopheDucamp * (-3)
[07:37:04] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-issues-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-issues-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+234)
[07:39:00] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-fr&diff=0&oldid=12826 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2)
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[07:40:01] <mfbot> [[examples-in-the-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=examples-in-the-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=12827 * ChristopheDucamp * (-7)
[07:40:28] <mfbot> [[examples-in-the-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=examples-in-the-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=12828 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1)
[07:45:54] <mfbot> [[Template:geo-related-pages-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-related-pages-fr&diff=0&oldid=12829 * ChristopheDucamp * (+250) sync'd
[07:51:10] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=12830 * ChristopheDucamp * (+51) Spécifications -
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[07:52:21] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=12831 * ChristopheDucamp * (-9) Brouillons -
[07:53:37] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=12832 * ChristopheDucamp * (+50) Discussions Exploratoires -
[07:54:43] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=12833 * ChristopheDucamp * (-10) Discussions Exploratoires -
[07:55:34] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=12834 * ChristopheDucamp * (+26) Discussions Exploratoires -
[07:57:35] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=12835 * ChristopheDucamp * (+69) Exemples -
[07:58:16] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=12836 * ChristopheDucamp * (+29) espaces de travail partagés -
[07:58:47] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=12837 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) espaces de travail partagés -
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[08:01:22] <JamieKnight> hiya,
[08:01:33] <JamieKnight> join wrongplanet
[08:01:49] <JamieKnight> opps, forgot the /
[08:01:56] <dzach> Godd morning!
[08:02:09] <JamieKnight> morning,
[08:02:21] <JamieKnight> how are you?
[08:02:47] <dzach> oops, good morning.
[08:02:52] <JamieKnight> hehe,
[08:03:08] <mfbot> [[payment-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/payment-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+967) création
[08:03:09] <JamieKnight> i am actully about to go to sleep soon,
[08:03:39] <dzach> I like mornings.
[08:03:45] <JamieKnight> i have been up all night coding, and i am not due in work till 1PM, so i am going to take a nap soon.
[08:03:58] <JamieKnight> I lke nights, very quiet.
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[08:04:11] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
[08:04:25] <JamieKnight> hiya iand
[08:05:56] <dzach> IRC chats remind me of the old ELIZA fake AI program.
[08:05:59] <mfbot> [[relpayment-research-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=relpayment-research-fr&diff=0&oldid=12838 * ChristopheDucamp * (-16341) redirigé vers rel-payment-fr
[08:06:22] <JamieKnight> ah, the tuning test
[08:06:45] <mfbot> [[rel-payment-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-payment-fr&diff=0&oldid=12839 * ChristopheDucamp * (+16317) content moved from relpayment-research-fr -> to be sync'd with rel-payment
[08:07:01] <dzach> Or "how easy to be a psychoanalyst"
[08:07:18] <JamieKnight> i like IRC,
[08:07:41] <JamieKnight> i spent some time in the #html room earlier,
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[08:07:52] <JamieKnight> felt suprised.
[08:08:33] <JamieKnight> alot of the people in thier are very much bigginers, and, although i like talking to bigginiers somtime when you have a question you need an expert.
[08:09:55] <dzach> I like it too, but at times it gets me distracted
[08:13:12] <JamieKnight> hehe,
[08:13:17] <JamieKnight> you working on any intresting projects?
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[08:13:46] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
[08:14:21] <dzach> fell onto microformats lately and I had a crush :-)
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[08:19:02] <mfbot> [[rel-payment-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-payment-fr&diff=0&oldid=12840 * ChristopheDucamp * (+441) sync'd
[08:20:29] <JamieKnight> hehe,
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[08:20:31] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
[08:20:58] <JamieKnight> I have only really been intrested in them more recently, but am rolling them out on client sites,
[08:21:29] <JamieKnight> I have also written a parser to hCard to Gmail, and am working on a system for hCard profile form filling.
[08:21:48] <JamieKnight> hiya drewinthehead
[08:21:58] <drewinthehead> hi
[08:22:14] <JamieKnight> how are you?
[08:22:56] <JamieKnight> drew mecleanare you Drew McLellan
[08:23:38] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=12841 * ChristopheDucamp * (+92) Banques -
[08:23:53] <JamieKnight> that came out wrong: are you Drew McLellan, if so i think you know my boss,
[08:24:18] <drewinthehead> i am. who's your boss?
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[08:24:25] <JamieKnight> Alun Rowe,
[08:24:28] <JamieKnight> pentangle,
[08:24:38] <drewinthehead> yeah, I know Alun.
[08:25:15] <JamieKnight> Kewl,
[08:25:36] <JamieKnight> drewinthehead: do you have any recomendations for XSLT capable servers in the UK?
[08:25:51] <JamieKnight> I have some kewl stuff, but the pentangle servers are unable to host it,
[08:27:29] <JamieKnight> he told me you were the person to speak to on microformats?
[08:28:04] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=12842 * DimitriosZachariadis * (+52)
[08:28:35] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=12843 * ChristopheDucamp * (+340) Divers -
[08:32:52] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=12844 * ChristopheDucamp * (+108) Banques - mise à jour
[08:34:38] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=12845 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Banques -
[08:35:14] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=12846 * ChristopheDucamp * (+34) Banques -
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[08:35:17] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[08:36:25] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=12847 * ChristopheDucamp * (+54) Banques -
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[08:43:03] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
[08:58:05] <JamieKnight> drewinthehead: would you be intrested in my hCard to Gmail script for microformatic?
[09:02:39] * tantek just found http://fotb06.backnetwork.com/people/person.aspx?person=jeremykeith - hCard, XFN, and vCard via feeds.technorati.com/contacts - wow. No sign of it on hcard-examples-in-wild or hcard-implementations - any UK/EU folks here know who did this? It's quite nice.
[09:03:34] <JamieKnight> it is nice,
[09:03:51] <JamieKnight> I had seen backnet, but didnt star, i didnt go,
[09:09:27] <tantek> whoa, it looks like every backnetwork.com sub-site has hCard, XFN, vCard support: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:backnetwork.com+hCard&filter=0
[09:10:12] <tantek> very cool. does anyone know who built backnetwork.com ?
[09:10:27] <JamieKnight> I think it was andy budd,
[09:10:47] <JamieKnight> I willgo look it up, i saw the link on his site, its all to do with the conference
[09:12:15] <JamieKnight> d.Construct is done by clearleft, so assume clearleft did the site.
[09:12:27] <JamieKnight> http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2007/01/end_of_year_review_2006/index.php
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[09:15:07] <JamieKnight> tantek: if you go here, and then look down the list there is a podcast titled backnet,
[09:21:51] <drewinthehead> tantek: that looks to be a redeployment of the backnetwork site used for d.Construct
[09:21:57] <drewinthehead> developed by this guy: http://fotb06.backnetwork.com/people/person.aspx?person=glennjones
[09:23:39] <drewinthehead> the company is 'Madgex'
[09:23:49] <JamieKnight> kewl,
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[09:23:52] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
[09:24:25] <drewinthehead> Glenn's a really nice guy - presented on microformats at BarCampLondon along with phae and me
[09:25:37] <JamieKnight> i need to go get some sleep,
[09:25:43] <JamieKnight> might be back on later,
[09:25:54] <JamieKnight> see you then,
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[09:27:00] <jibot> Cloud_ is Cloud
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[09:44:09] <dzach> Is the class="summary" property mandatory in hCalendar?
[09:46:05] <dzach> Is the class="summary" property in hCalendar mandatory?
[09:46:43] <mfbot> [[plain-xml]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-xml&diff=0&oldid=12848 * Tantek * (+346) added Jeremy Keith's mini-critique of XML
[09:46:53] <dzach> Is the class="summary" property in hCalendar mandatory?
[09:47:15] <dzach> Is the class='summary' property in hCalendar mandatory?
[09:47:25] <dzach> Is the class="summary" property in hCal mandatory?
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[09:47:44] <mfbot> [[plain-xml-considered-harmful]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/plain-xml-considered-harmful * Tantek * (+23)
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[09:47:55] <mfbot> [[xml-considered-harmful]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xml-considered-harmful * Tantek * (+23)
[09:48:03] <dzach> Is the class="summary" property in hCalendar mandatory?
[09:48:42] <dzach> Is the class="summary" property in hCalendar mandatory?
[09:49:02] <dzach> Is the class=\"summary\" property in hCalendar mandatory?
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[09:53:04] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
[09:53:12] <dzach> Is the class="summary" property in hCalendar mandatory?
[10:01:40] <Ronnos> dzacj, it is
[10:01:44] <Ronnos> dzach, it is
[10:02:57] <Ronnos> as you can see in the hcalendar cheatsheet on the following wikipage: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-cheatsheet
[10:03:14] <Ronnos> summary = Must be present exactly once
[10:03:52] <dzach> A, thanks, I was looking into RFC2445 and it doesn't say so
[10:04:17] <dzach> or I haven't found it yet
[10:07:20] <Ronnos> dzach, it's what i found in the cheatsheet, tantek can give you the answer for sure
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[10:07:49] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[10:09:54] <dzach> ronnos: Thank you, that explained the behavior of "Operator". I'm trying to see how to get a date into a geo, and it looks like hCalendar can do it
[10:10:32] <Ronnos> what are you trying to do?
[10:10:58] <dzach> geotag with time
[10:11:47] <mfbot> [[user-interface]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface&diff=0&oldid=12849 * Tantek * (+1364) add more concrete discussion and suggestions to Social Network Portability
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[10:17:18] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
[10:18:29] <dzach> It looks like something like
[10:18:29] <dzach> <div class="vevent">
[10:18:29] <dzach> <span class="summary">testing</span>
[10:18:29] <dzach> <abbr class='geo' title='38;24'> in Athens on </abbr>
[10:18:29] <dzach> <abbr class="dtstamp" title="20070124">now</abbr>
[10:18:30] <dzach> </div>
[10:18:32] <dzach> can do the trick, if testing with Operator is valid
[10:18:52] <dzach> oops, that was supposed to be one message
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[10:21:12] <Ronnos> tantek, as i discovered for myself yesterday, the geo coördinates for google earth and google maps are a bit different when you need to point out the same spot. How do i solve this problem? The "Real world geo example" on the geo wiki page seems to solve this using the abbr element with a difference between the title attribute and element value. I was wondering if this is the right way to follow?
[10:21:43] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12850 * ThLinard * (+97) New site added
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[10:28:35] <Dimitrios> I need to test this clients multiline msg capabilities, so forgive me if you get garbage
[10:28:35] <Dimitrios> I think I can get a time element into geo by using an hcalendar microformat:
[10:28:35] <Dimitrios> <div class="vevent">
[10:28:35] <Dimitrios> <span class="summary">testing</span>
[10:28:35] <Dimitrios> <abbr class='geo' title='38;24'> in Athens on </abbr>
[10:28:36] <Dimitrios> <abbr class="dtstamp" title="20070124">now</abbr>
[10:28:37] <Dimitrios> </div>
[10:28:40] <Dimitrios> would that violate any specs?
[10:29:22] <Dimitrios> How do I get multiline msg in Kopete?
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[10:38:57] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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[10:49:52] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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[11:37:03] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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[12:52:19] <Ronnos> hi all, i have a question about the hReview microformat
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[12:53:19] <Ronnos> i'm wondering what is should do with the rating, put it inside the blockquote i use for the description, or put it outside the blockquote element
[12:53:26] <Ronnos> *is = i
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[13:00:02] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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[13:30:44] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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[13:33:38] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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[13:35:55] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[13:52:34] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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[14:10:44] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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[14:25:46] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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[14:32:10] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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[14:35:08] <briansuda> mkaply, are you around?
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[14:35:55] <mkaply> briansuda: yep
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[14:36:16] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
[14:36:16] <briansuda> i was reading the archives from IRC yesterday, you had a Q about GEO
[14:37:09] <mkaply> briansuda: one I got the answer to - if <geo>lat;long</geo> was valid (I'd never seen that before)
[14:37:22] <briansuda> who answered that? because id' say NO
[14:37:25] <mkaply> the other Q was about , vs semicolon. Did we definitely decide that I should error on comma separator
[14:37:29] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
[14:37:32] <mkaply> tantek said that was the original spec for geos
[14:37:47] <briansuda> hm... i thought that was ONLY on abbr
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[14:40:47] <tantek> greetings
[14:40:52] <briansuda> hello
[14:41:03] <tantek> briansuda, any opinion on the lat long shorthand?
[14:41:06] <ajturner> kia ora
[14:41:25] <tantek> hey mkaply
[14:41:28] <briansuda> i thought the short-hand was only for ABBR at the moment
[14:41:39] <briansuda> are we also going to use that for <span> etc?
[14:41:51] <tantek> well that's the default for string values
[14:42:00] <tantek> to not restrict the tag
[14:42:28] <tantek> but simply specify that for <abbr>, the title attribute takes precedence over the element contents
[14:42:49] <briansuda> i though it was required to have class="latitude" and class="longitude"
[14:43:04] <briansuda> but we are going to say that there is the short-hand as well?
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[14:43:11] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
[14:43:23] <briansuda> the same we apply to ABBR now can stand for the string value as well as the @title?
[14:43:36] <tantek> briansuda - it *currently* is required per hCard and geo specs to have explicit classes for latitude and longitude
[14:43:45] <briansuda> right
[14:44:02] <ajturner> are you referring to the title="lat;lon" shorthand?
[14:44:05] <tantek> the point is that we have had the brainstorm proposal to add the lat long shorthand variant, and it seems to have worked well in real world experiments
[14:44:32] <tantek> ajturner, http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#latitude_longitude_shorthand
[14:44:55] <tantek> title attribute only applies in the case where you are using <abbr> - this is very important
[14:45:07] <briansuda> right, i agree
[14:45:11] <briansuda> it has been working nicely
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[14:45:18] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
[14:45:23] <tantek> how was it implementing it in X2V?
[14:45:45] <ajturner> what does it mean to "be working nicely" in "real world experiments"?
[14:45:51] <briansuda> just like it is described there... if the class="geo" is on an ABBR then it looks to the title for the lat;lon
[14:46:12] <briansuda> if it is on any other element it is looking for explicit class="latitude"... class="longitude"
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[14:47:06] <tantek> ajturner, real world content uses it, and there are implementations that parse it
[14:47:13] <tantek> interoperably even
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[14:48:16] <briansuda> i thinkj mkaply's question yesterday was for the situation <span class="geo">12.34;56.789</span>
[14:48:28] <ajturner> ok - read through more of the brainstorm, seems like there are still problems w/ G/Y maps parsing lat;lon by default
[14:48:33] <briansuda> at the moment that is invalid because there is no child latutide/longitude classes
[14:48:54] <tantek> briansuda, the shorthand was meant to apply in general
[14:49:00] <tantek> as a string property
[14:49:21] <tantek> and not just be element-specific/restricted to <abbr> - no other property works that way
[14:49:21] <briansuda> ok, and we are moving that from brainstorming to the spec
[14:49:45] <tantek> well that's the proposal in email/irc/twitter ;)
[14:49:58] <briansuda> i thought it was only for ABBR
[14:50:08] <briansuda> but i am happy to accept it for all element
[14:50:17] <tantek> ok cool
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[14:50:46] <tantek> in general we should not think "only for element XYZ" for microformats properties, unless it is merely a difference in parsing or attribute preference
[14:50:46] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
[14:50:55] <tantek> ajturner, what do you mean by "still problems w/ G/Y maps parsing lat;lon by default" ?
[14:51:06] <tantek> could you provide a concrete example?
[14:51:22] <ajturner> from the Brainstorming page: (N.B. I tried and failed to get Yahoo Maps and local to do something intelligent with both "37.386013;-122.082932" and "37.386013 -122.082932").
[14:52:06] * briansuda wonders why Colloquy alerts him and says someone mentioned his name when people type "B."
[14:52:18] <ajturner> yo' B!
[14:52:25] <briansuda> nothing that time
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[14:52:27] <jibot> monkinetic is redmonk is SteveIvy is Steve Ivy - http://redmonk.net
[14:52:45] <briansuda> but the last message alerted me?
[14:52:57] <ajturner> the nice thing about the shorthand is it finally lets you associate *some* text within a geo-location
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[14:53:11] <mkaply> Incidentally, the place where I found that geo was http://rasterweb.net/raster/contact.html
[14:53:48] <mkaply> I can certainly ask Pete to fix his page, since he uses geos "correct" in other places
[14:55:25] <tantek> ajturner, those comments were in reference to the "geo links" proposal, and yes that proposal still needs some work.
[14:55:36] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#geo_links
[14:56:40] <mkaply> I know how yahoo lat/long works
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[14:56:45] * mkaply goes to updat that page
[14:57:03] <tantek> mkaply, can you provide actual example URLs that work?
[14:57:15] <mkaply> tantek: yep
[14:57:32] <mkaply> tantek: that google URL works
[14:57:51] <ajturner> this one: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37.386013;-122.082932
[14:57:51] <ajturner> ?
[15:00:14] <mkaply> no this one http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37.386013+-122.082932
[15:00:38] <mkaply> Semicolon doesn't work as a sep for google maps. You can also use
[15:00:50] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12851 * MikeKaply * (-29) geo links -
[15:01:34] <mkaply> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=lat,long
[15:01:57] <mkaply> incidentally, this is another reason why this shouldn't be a valid geo - too many syntax possibilities
[15:02:33] <tantek> mkaply, right, hence why "geo links" are still only a discussion/brainstorm
[15:02:35] <mkaply> sorry http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=lat,long&q=lat,long adds the point at the lat long as well (ll is just putting the map to the location)
[15:03:35] <ajturner> actually, ll=lat;lon seems to work
[15:03:36] <tantek> the only reason they are being considered is that there are plenty of such links already on the web, and it if was possible to explicitly mark them up to indicate their geo-ness that would help semantically enrichen those pages.
[15:03:48] <tantek> ajturner - that's very cool
[15:03:52] <ajturner> wait
[15:04:39] <ajturner> no, it does a fake search, but not to the real location - show's Washington DC as a fall back for some odd reason
[15:04:48] <briansuda> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http%3A//suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/get-geo.php%3Ftype%3Dkml%26uri%3Dhttp%253A//rasterweb.net/raster/contact.html
[15:05:05] <briansuda> X2V no groks lat;lon from node-values
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[15:05:47] <ajturner> gmaps?q=lat lon
[15:05:49] <ajturner> works
[15:06:03] <ajturner> which is what GeoRSS uses <georss:point>lat lon</georss:point>
[15:06:16] <ajturner> so another option would be title="lat lon"
[15:07:06] <briansuda> ajturner, then what is the seperator to create a polygon?
[15:07:17] <ajturner> lat lon lat lon lat lon
[15:07:29] <ajturner> I *personally* don't like it, but that's the spec :/
[15:07:50] <briansuda> that leaves no chance of ALTITUDE then :(
[15:08:08] <ajturner> right
[15:08:15] <ajturner> well, that's for GeoRSS simple
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[15:08:58] <ajturner> I think it's the case where they did simple case first (lat/lon) and then made adding things like Alt rather difficult
[15:09:10] <ajturner> it's another attribute
[15:17:34] <danbri> in rdf data, alt: is relatively rare... see the nice survey from swoogle search engine stats: http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/blogger/how-the-w3cs-geo-vocabulary-is-being-used/
[15:19:16] <briansuda> that is one of the major reasons GEO has not implemented any of the proposed extentions
[15:19:26] <briansuda> KISS, 80/20, etc.
[15:20:05] <ajturner> but... if other specs don't actually *support* altitude, how do you know whether it will be used?
[15:20:24] <ajturner> it's like, something is really hard to do, so no one does, so there never is a case to then implement it ;)
[15:21:48] <ajturner> while 80/20 is good, it seems like sometimes the specs can help innovate
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[15:22:29] <jibot> markp is Mark Pilgrim
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[15:31:33] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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[15:38:55] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
[15:44:02] <mfbot> [[job-listing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12852 * DanHilton * (+51) Fields from examples -
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[16:57:47] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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[17:07:32] <mfbot> [[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=12853 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3)
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[17:45:49] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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[17:47:50] <monkinetic> w000000000! http://lifestream.deliciouslymeta.com/lifestream
[18:08:25] <mfbot> [[rel-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=12854 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2945)
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[18:11:53] <briansuda> hm, lifestream on the lifestrem subdomain!
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[18:11:56] <mfbot> [[group-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=group-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=12855 * ChristopheDucamp * (+18)
[18:12:20] <njero> hey all, has anyone here seen a microformat approach to RDDL?
[18:12:46] <briansuda> RDDL?
[18:13:50] <njero> Resource Directory Description Language
[18:14:00] <njero> The document at the end of a namespace URL
[18:14:08] <briansuda> link?
[18:14:28] <njero> http://www.rddl.org
[18:16:28] <briansuda> and what would you want microformats, away to represent RDDL in HTML?
[18:16:58] <njero> yes... something akin to XLink in Micrformat style
[18:17:15] <njero> Then it is valid XHTML and contains information about the resources listed in the directory
[18:17:37] <briansuda> hm...
[18:18:07] <briansuda> without looking too deeply into all the different attributes in RDDL, you could use XOXO
[18:18:15] <njero> hmmm
[18:18:17] <njero> link?
[18:18:27] <briansuda> and (if i remember) there is a VERY old un-used <dir> element in HTML, but it might be deprecated
[18:18:40] * njero looks
[18:18:46] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
[18:19:05] <briansuda> given that HTML and <a> has @type, @xml:lang
[18:19:27] <briansuda> you can probably represent much of it in HTML already
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[18:20:15] <njero> right..
[18:20:34] <njero> it is the need for the nature and the role... maybe those could be contents of <a>
[18:20:44] <briansuda> right
[18:20:55] <briansuda> Microformats work with HTML 4 and up
[18:21:00] <njero> thanks, I will look into it some more
[18:21:17] <briansuda> but XHTML2 has @role, but don't rely on XHTML2
[18:21:47] <briansuda> there is also, http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/
[18:22:50] <njero> yeah I considered grddl
[18:23:06] <njero> I am also bugging the guys in #swig about this
[18:23:12] <njero> they are grddl fans there
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[18:24:28] <briansuda> do you have a URL to an RDDL instance? and we can see if we can shoehorn it into XOXO
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[18:36:30] <njero> briansuda: yeah I have a couple of weird ones.. :)
[18:36:58] <briansuda> we can try to work through some if you want?
[18:37:06] <njero> yeah that would be cool
[18:37:12] <njero> http://codeplot.com/documents/73/resources
[18:37:28] <njero> I don't think you have to be logged in.. lmk if you do
[18:38:08] <briansuda> what am i looking for?
[18:38:29] <njero> okay in the source there is an <rddl:resource> in the resources div...
[18:38:44] <njero> That is the rnc:: resource....
[18:39:01] <njero> it is possible to add resources to this particular file... that is why it is a but strange
[18:39:09] <njero> s/but/bit
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[18:41:12] <briansuda> <a href="contacts14.rnc" title="rnc::" xml:lang="en-US"></a>
[18:41:35] <briansuda> xml:base could be gleaned from the <base> and/or @xml:base
[18:42:02] <briansuda> as for @role or @arcrole i'm not sure exactly what those point too?
[18:42:12] <njero> inside of that would you do <span class="nature">...</span><span class="purpose"></span>
[18:42:37] <njero> @role is akin to the "purpose" of the link, and @arcrole is the "nature" of the resource
[18:43:01] <njero> so there is a relaxng document used for validation... (as in the body text)....
[18:44:11] <briansuda> hm.. let me check something in XOXO
[18:44:47] <briansuda> yeah, you can use the DL element as well
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[18:44:53] <njero> I really appreciate it
[18:44:58] <briansuda> so you'd have <ul class=><li>
[18:45:08] <briansuda> <ul class="xoxo"><li>
[18:45:14] <briansuda> that starts an XOXO item
[18:45:19] <briansuda> in that you'd have
[18:45:55] <briansuda> <dl><dt>role</dt><dd><a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/relax-ng-compact-syntax"></a></dd>
[18:46:20] <briansuda> because it is in a DL those dt's are taken to be attributes, the DD is the value of that attribute
[18:46:31] <njero> aha
[18:46:45] <njero> should it not have the <a> then?
[18:48:00] <briansuda> well the <a> as well if you want
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[18:48:15] <briansuda> i guess for things like LANG there are two ways to represent that
[18:48:24] <briansuda> as a <dl><dt>... or as the @lang
[18:48:39] <briansuda> the @lang is using the most semantic element/attribute
[18:48:50] <briansuda> but i don't think as DL it would be wrong
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[18:49:23] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
[18:50:13] <KevinMarks> missed context there
[18:50:25] <KevinMarks> lang or hreflang are good
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[18:53:27] <njero> yeah I am reading on those now
[18:53:34] <njero> I wonder if <link> is better than <a>
[18:55:21] <briansuda> link is hidden text, <a> is human-readable, it is more trustworthy and errors will be spotted faster
[18:56:49] <njero> sounds good
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[18:56:58] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[18:56:58] <njero> it seems that rel == purpose
[18:57:47] <njero> I assume that xlink:@role == html:a @rel... but I don't know that for sure
[18:57:58] <tantek> greetings
[18:57:59] <tantek> njero - have you read http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq ?
[18:58:01] <tantek> that's a good place to start to better understand rel
[18:58:10] <njero> then a profile for RDDL could be attached to give meaning to the rel items..
[18:58:17] <njero> no, tantek: looking now
[18:58:17] <tantek> njero - nevermind xlink:@role - it was designed more theoretically than based on actual real world usage
[18:58:40] <njero> tantek: I have been trying to go from xlink (RDDL specifically) to microformats
[18:58:56] <tantek> xlink as a whole is a very poor design as compared to what/how people actually use links on the web
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[19:01:21] <njero> yeah I am convinced that rel serves the thing I am going for
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[19:01:36] <njero> I bet I could mangle linktypes to do the same
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[19:02:10] <njero> with restrictions xlink:@title => a:@name
[19:02:22] <njero> But it could also go into the content...
[19:03:29] <njero> briansuda: what do you think about @title? should it be the content of the a:link or the @name?
[19:03:51] * njero bemoans horribly confusing use of ":" in his last couple messages
[19:05:03] <briansuda> i think it should be the name
[19:05:10] <briansuda> the link should be @href
[19:05:56] <njero> agreed
[19:06:16] <njero> should I add a @class="rddl:resource" or just @class="resource"?
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[19:06:55] <njero> or is that a bit wonky still?
[19:07:04] <briansuda> no need, it is XOXO
[19:07:38] <briansuda> each <li> is a resource
[19:09:05] <tantek> class="resource" unfortunately doesn't mean anything
[19:09:11] <tantek> *everything* with a URL is a resource
[19:09:19] <tantek> hence the "R" ;)
[19:10:23] <njero> Yeah, I wanted to be explicit about which links rddl software should traverse... but I suppose rel handles that
[19:11:15] <njero> briansuda: doesn't <a> have @title? that should be @title instead :)
[19:11:29] <njero> I just read it :)
[19:11:40] <briansuda> sure every element in HTML can take the @title attribute
[19:12:16] <briansuda> that would be the most semantic place to stick title data, in the @title :)
[19:12:36] <briansuda> we like to use what is already there
[19:13:40] <njero> okay.. this is shaping up nicely...
[19:15:45] <njero> The only question left is the "nature" or "arcrole"... in xlink this is a uri and is therefore commonly a namespace uri. But in <a> the only option is to include a @linktypes which can only validly accept a media type. I suppose you could just use media types and then in the <head> add some <meta> tags to map between the two. It seems a bit overkill
[19:16:49] <mfbot> [[hreview-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12856 * TomHeath * (+112)
[19:17:23] <tantek> njero - the problem is that the xlink model as a whole is flawed - that's what i meant by the design
[19:17:34] <njero> hmm
[19:17:47] <njero> I disagree...
[19:17:49] <tantek> so reasoning from the perspective of "what does this feature in xlink translate to" is poor methodology
[19:18:24] <tantek> the problem is that *the features in xlink were not well designed to begin with*
[19:18:39] <tantek> they were largely theoretical, and not based on real world usage, applications etc.
[19:18:39] <njero> Specifying that a resource can be linked to other resources and defining those other resources in terms of the purpose and nature seems reasonable and useful.
[19:18:50] <briansuda> you can certainly still use the <DL> and a <DT> or arcrole and use an <a href=""> there as well
[19:19:18] <tantek> no. unless you can find common/numerous real world examples, a feature is *not* useful for any practical purpose
[19:19:27] <njero> that is so wrong
[19:19:41] <njero> if that were the case invention would cease to happen
[19:19:47] <tantek> unless you can state exactly what real world problems are being solved, it is not useful
[19:20:15] <tantek> njero - that's right, microformats focus on building technology based on existing real world behaviors, not on invention out of whole cloth
[19:20:35] <tantek> so if you're looking for lots theoretical invention, this is not the right place
[19:20:52] <njero> I need to connect a RELAXNG schema to an XML document. RDDL (through XLinks) allow me to do just that. RDDL software is widely deployed for this purpose and microformats inherit the legacy of human readable meta information.
[19:21:05] <tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats for an overview of the stark contrasts between microformat methodology/approach and traditional technology invention approaches (include web technologies)
[19:21:14] <njero> *sigh*
[19:22:01] <sreynen> this might be of interest re: rel-tag: http://www.flickr.com/groups/api/discuss/72157594497877875/
[19:23:16] <njero> sreynen: thanks bookmarked
[19:26:05] <mfbot> [[hreview-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12857 * TomHeath * (+103) New Examples -
[19:27:51] <tantek> machine tags are a huge abuse of tags, as tags are supposed to be human authored
[19:28:38] <njero> tantek: no doubt your experience in this area surpasses mine... I just believe that there exist fundamental cases where the notion of a link is a useful abstraction. RDDL seeks to capture those and be human readable. Unfortunately they use actual xlinks (which is not widely implemented). Bridging this gap seems a useful endeavor. Though perhaps orthogonal to the microformats creed
[19:29:51] <njero> The logical conclusion of "machine tags are a huge abuse of tags" is that we should display the HTML as text. Of course tags are intended for machines.
[19:30:04] <tantek> njero, the problem is that without testing such hypotheses against real world use and applications, the hypotheses become little better than matters of faith/religion, which are not really useful in a technology development context.
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[19:30:24] <njero> I am not looking to troll here though, and for fear of that I can leave...
[19:30:35] <tantek> njero - no, tags are not intended for machines. the whole point of tags is twofold:
[19:30:52] <njero> briansuda, thanks much on the help... I will implement something horribly useless now ;)
[19:30:54] <tantek> 1. lower cognitive load for adding keywords - no managed taxonomy either personally or group
[19:31:06] <tantek> 2. emergent folksonomic effects
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[19:32:04] <tantek> njero - the microformats methodology is quite harsh on the "in-a-vacuum" inventors of the past so it is not a surprise that you may find it contradicting with your experience with those crowds/technologies to date.
[19:32:17] <njero> tantek: I think we are using "tags" in two different ways. I was referring to elements
[19:32:52] <tantek> ah sorry
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[19:33:03] <tantek> tags around here typically mean delicious, flickr, rel-tag tags
[19:33:07] <sreynen> sorry, i didn't mean for that link to be taken within the context of this discussion, which i haven't been following
[19:33:13] <njero> in which case your point is well taken on folksonomy tags
[19:33:17] <tantek> we try to refer to *elements*
[19:33:21] <tantek> as elements :)
[19:33:33] <tantek> but you're right, that overloading often causes confusion
[19:36:52] <kapowaz> go google and call them labels...? :)
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[19:38:21] <njero> :)
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[19:57:49] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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[20:07:48] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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[20:21:29] <jibot> jcw9 is Jon Williams and can be found online at http://wizardishungry.com/blog/
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[20:23:02] <jcw9> If I have an hResume, is it ok to put the `summary` inside the contact hCard?
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[20:55:20] <JamieKnight> hiya,
[20:58:04] * Alystair crickets
[20:58:35] * JamieKnight is trying to perswade fireworks to help him be creative.
[20:58:57] <Alystair> fireworks? as in the macromedia application?
[20:59:07] <Alystair> the one which I use day and night? :D
[20:59:08] <JamieKnight> yep,
[20:59:12] * Alystair lurves it
[20:59:22] <Alystair> I still need to get into photoshop but for web work, nothing really beats it
[20:59:24] <JamieKnight> I am trying to design a new front end for a site with potensioal,
[20:59:35] <JamieKnight> yeah, for web work, vector based is better.
[21:00:10] <Alystair> mock up -> potential slices -> save file and create flattened versions -> slice -> enjoy
[21:00:25] <JamieKnight> i prefer to slice the PNG,
[21:00:35] <JamieKnight> so, i can remove layers as i need them.
[21:00:39] <Alystair> :>
[21:01:21] <JamieKnight> I am also writing up some content for my site.
[21:01:33] <JamieKnight> i think i neeed to review the site design
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[21:16:35] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[21:29:38] <OpenStandards> Alystair, inkscape beats photoshop
[21:29:55] <OpenStandards> inkscape is amazing
[21:30:28] <Alystair> inkscape is a vector tool
[21:30:36] <OpenStandards> JamieKnight, check out inkscape it produces valid svg :D
[21:31:04] <Alystair> really sexy though :O
[21:31:08] <OpenStandards> Alystair, yeah which is better for the web, you move around ojbects easier
[21:31:24] <OpenStandards> adding shine to object is easy
[21:32:31] <OpenStandards> i love inkscape but i also love xara lx
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[21:33:59] <Alystair> ?
[21:35:01] <OpenStandards> xara xtreme its another vector tool
[21:36:56] <JamieKnight> i will do,
[21:37:11] <JamieKnight> photoshop and inkscape are for diffent things,
[21:37:16] <JamieKnight> anyway, brb
[21:37:31] <Prometheus^> wouldn't illustrator be more like inkscape?
[21:37:39] <Prometheus^> since it's for vectors
[21:37:41] <OpenStandards> yeah it is
[21:39:37] <OpenStandards> but you look at the web right now everyone is pretty much using vectors, gradients, curves, logo design
[21:40:00] <JamieKnight> yep,
[21:40:17] <JamieKnight> although, it depend son the sites aim,
[21:40:29] <JamieKnight> it will ultimatly be outputted as a bit map in most cases,
[21:40:38] <OpenStandards> true
[21:40:56] <JamieKnight> however, i am looking forward to this evolving.
[21:41:08] <OpenStandards> i wish ie would support svg already
[21:41:22] <JamieKnight> is anyone here currently doing any microformats prodjects?
[21:41:35] <OpenStandards> i´m looking forward to svg graphs
[21:41:59] <JamieKnight> SVG graphs will be good
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[21:42:44] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
[21:42:50] <drewinthehead> greetings
[21:42:52] <JamieKnight> hiya drew,
[21:43:02] <JamieKnight> how be you?
[21:43:20] <OpenStandards> hey drewinthehead
[21:43:26] <drewinthehead> fine thanks
[21:43:27] <drewinthehead> hey
[21:43:33] <JamieKnight> great,
[21:44:31] <drewinthehead> I was just wondering if anyone else thinks it's worth adding a note about 'machine tags' (a la Flickr) to the Encoding section of the rel-tag spec
[21:44:50] <JamieKnight> what do you mean machine tags?
[21:45:06] <drewinthehead> e.g. upcoming:event=123456
[21:45:07] * JamieKnight thanks drew for the rel-lint, fantastic tool
[21:45:33] <JamieKnight> ah, yeah, i think it would be useful,
[21:45:40] <drewinthehead> or perhaps to rel-tag-faq
[21:45:54] * JamieKnight will be right back.
[21:47:14] <drewinthehead> feels like rel-tag-faq would be a good place, but no one's asked the question yet, so that's a bit premature
[21:47:41] <drewinthehead> perhaps it's not worth worrying about until the question gets asked. Might be worth just blogging about instead.
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[21:48:53] <jibot> Frederic is Frederic de Villamil from France and the guy formerly known as neuro` and blogs at http://t37.net
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[21:52:50] <briansuda> drewinthehead there is the GEO tags on flickr as well
[21:53:29] <drewinthehead> right ... these are all being grouped in a new part of the tag list labelled 'machine tags'
[21:53:51] <drewinthehead> I think we'll see adoption bloom
[21:54:15] <drewinthehead> so I was wondering if it was worth a note on how to encode these for rel-tag
[21:55:00] <sreynen_> drew, i mentioned "machine tags" earlier in IRC and tantek didn't seem to care for the idea
[21:55:45] <sreynen_> his exact words: "machine tags are a huge abuse of tags, as tags are supposed to be human authored"
[21:55:51] * briansuda remembers that too
[21:55:53] <drewinthehead> that's ok. care for it or not though, people are going to start using them more. if they do use them, it'd be good if they encode them correctly for rel-tag :)
[21:56:14] <briansuda> wonders if that is picoformats
[21:58:00] * JamieKnight returns,
[22:00:08] <JamieKnight> what means that it is not possible to define a tag which does both.
[22:01:35] <JamieKnight> machine readable in the tag atribute, and human redable inside the tag in the data
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[22:02:16] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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[22:27:09] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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[22:45:00] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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[22:51:58] <DerekS> is there a php script that will take my unformatted microcard and make it perty?
[22:52:03] <DerekS> so i don't have to
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[23:09:05] <sreynen> DerekS, by "microcard," you mean hCard?
[23:09:57] <DerekS> yeah
[23:10:06] <DerekS> i have it all working
[23:10:16] <DerekS> just need a prettying script
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[23:18:56] <sreynen> wouldn't the prettying be more properly done with CSS rather than PHP?
[23:19:21] <DerekS> sreynen: i dunno :) i just have the <div> with all my info :)
[23:20:38] <sreynen> well, if you have <div class="vcard"> with all your info, you can make that pretty with div.vcard { pretty: yes; } in CSS
[23:20:48] <sreynen> where pretty: yes; is actual styling
[23:21:11] <DerekS> haha yeah
[23:21:21] <DerekS> no premade ones (i don't really do html/css/etc
[23:21:24] <DerekS> )
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[23:23:52] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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[23:46:07] <Alystair> hahaha
[23:46:30] * Alystair wishes there was a pretty option :(
[23:47:04] <Alystair> #thisDIV{pretty: awesome, amazing, fantastic;}
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