IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:00] <TylerR> Haha kingryan. I wonder who that could be... **whistles unknowningly**
  2. [00:00:06] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  3. [00:00:07] <JamieKnight> tantek?
  4. [00:00:11] <kingryan> yeah
  5. [00:00:21] <JamieKnight> ahhh,
  6. [00:01:43] <JamieKnight> i enjoy learning about intresting things so i like microfrmats, and it helps with my work so its a win win,
  7. [00:02:01] <JamieKnight> and, that isent even mentioing thier future (and current) use in the web at general,
  8. [00:05:17] * tantek (n=tantek@206.47.9.3) Quit ()
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  16. [00:49:35] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13384 * RobCottingham * (-221) Examples -
  17. [00:50:40] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13385 * RobCottingham * (+221) New Examples -
  18. [00:54:26] * TylerR (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) Quit ("Leaving")
  19. [00:56:03] <sreynen> FYI, microformats in drupal: http://groups.drupal.org/node/2601
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  28. [01:49:52] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  32. [02:34:27] <KevinMarks> http://jdil.org/ is a remarkable exercise in point-missing
  33. [02:34:58] <KevinMarks> The construction:
  34. [02:34:58] <KevinMarks> {"@type":"xsd:decimal","@value":33}
  35. [02:34:58] <KevinMarks> represents the assignment of the datatype "xsd:decimal" to the numeral 33.
  36. [02:35:30] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  37. [02:35:48] <othermaciej> whoah, namespaces in JSON
  38. [02:36:07] <KevinMarks> and for an encore, DF in JSON
  39. [02:36:11] <othermaciej> and schemas
  40. [02:36:13] <KevinMarks> RDF*
  41. [02:36:59] <othermaciej> I guess you can make anything suck if you try hard enough
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  46. [03:21:38] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  57. [03:58:34] <jibot> redmonk is Steve Ivy, http://redmonk.net and is linklogging at http://deliciouslymeta.com
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  61. [04:22:00] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  72. [06:01:34] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  75. [06:15:54] <TylerR> Evening KevinMarks.
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  77. [07:07:11] <defunkt> anyone have a sec to answer a question about <abbr>?
  78. [07:07:18] <defunkt> basically, if an hCalendar has this, what's the location? <abbr class="location" title=""><a href="/venue/281">Avalon</a>, Boston, MA</abbr>
  79. [07:47:54] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  80. [07:47:55] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  81. [07:51:35] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has joined #microformats
  82. [07:51:35] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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  85. [08:19:57] <KevinMarks> evening
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  93. [08:59:00] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  94. [09:29:47] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  95. [09:29:48] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  97. [09:34:23] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  104. [10:48:31] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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  116. [12:34:21] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  117. [12:35:49] * redmonk (n=steve@ip68-96-52-225.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  118. [12:35:49] <jibot> redmonk is Steve Ivy, http://redmonk.net and is linklogging at http://deliciouslymeta.com
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  123. [13:11:02] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  128. [13:46:12] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  132. [14:00:03] <DanWrong> hello, anyone about?
  133. [14:00:15] * amette (n=amette@mocube.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  134. [14:01:08] <DanWrong> I'm writing a parse and I'm a little confused about the date format stuff
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  137. [14:04:34] <trovster> DanWrong: Wassup?
  138. [14:04:47] <DanWrong> ello
  139. [14:04:56] <trovster> Dates must follow the abbr-pattern - http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern
  140. [14:05:34] <DanWrong> well, on microformats.org it say it should be ISO8601
  141. [14:05:55] <DanWrong> but I see alot of stuff about that uses a YYYYMMMDD type format
  142. [14:06:08] <DanWrong> so are both allowed?
  143. [14:06:19] <DanWrong> or is the later one not valid?
  144. [14:07:04] <trovster> Should be YYYY-MM-DD i think
  145. [14:07:26] <trovster> 'machine readable ISO8601 datetime or date as the value'
  146. [14:07:27] <vbgunz> I read a lot on microformats.. I think I might be a little confused. Is a microformat basically a design pattern mainly found in XHTML? is it a sort of pattern that defines data that is not only human readable but easily parsed by for data mining? Also, is microformats.org the definitive site for *learning* how to apply and create microformats?
  147. [14:07:53] <trovster> vbgunz: HTML as well.
  148. [14:08:23] <trovster> It's adding more meaning to data, which is first human readable, but also machine readable, correct.
  149. [14:08:31] <DanWrong> Hmm, yeah, thats what the site says but there's a lot of examples about the other way....including ones linked from microformats.org
  150. [14:08:41] <trovster> The wiki is pretty impressive, and there is also a mailing list.
  151. [14:08:46] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  152. [14:08:46] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  154. [14:09:32] <trovster> DanWrong: Not 100%, I use yyyy-mm-dd or YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ssTZD
  155. [14:09:42] <vbgunz> ok, I think I will give it a try
  156. [14:09:49] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  157. [14:09:50] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
  158. [14:09:58] <trovster> According to the spec YYYYMMDD is incorrect, however, it might be worth looking at what existing parsers do
  159. [14:10:21] <DanWrong> tails seems to parse both
  160. [14:10:30] <vbgunz> but basically all my question equate to "yes", am I correct? Am I missing anything is that basically the summary of mf?
  161. [14:10:38] <DanWrong> i better put both in
  162. [14:10:53] <trovster> vbgunz: It's not solely XHTML, it is HTML as well (pedantic)
  163. [14:10:53] <DanWrong> trovster: BarCampLondoning?
  164. [14:10:54] <vbgunz> YYYYMMDD is sort of universal *2 cents*
  165. [14:11:07] <DanWrong> hmm, yeha
  166. [14:11:15] <trovster> What type of universal?
  167. [14:11:23] <trovster> http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime doesn't mention it
  168. [14:11:29] <DanWrong> damn, i was trying to make this parser small
  169. [14:11:53] <vbgunz> trovster: I am not good with dates but some programming languages and database management systems always prefer that style
  170. [14:11:59] <trovster> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3339.html has no mention of YYYYMM either
  171. [14:12:16] <trovster> MySQL is YYYY-MM-DD... not sure what else to cite.
  172. [14:13:05] <DanWrong> the other thing is because YYYMMDD is not a standard as such I have no idea how times are represented in that format...other whether people even do times that way
  173. [14:13:08] <vbgunz> trovster: I've seen it more in my studies and learned it better than the more comfortable MM-DD-YYYY :) personally I am not good with dates but I've seen it plenty :)
  174. [14:13:12] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  175. [14:13:12] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  176. [14:13:43] <trovster> Might be worth looking at the parser from briansuda
  177. [14:13:59] <trovster> vbgunz: MM-DD-YYYY is never comfortable and just doesn't make sense.
  178. [14:14:20] <DanWrong> trovster: yup, good plan....know where the source is?
  179. [14:14:43] <trovster> ttp://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/ isn't loading for me, though
  180. [14:14:58] <vbgunz> trovster: I am American and it makes too much sense for me :)
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  182. [14:15:51] <briansuda> this issue is with the iCalendar spec, it MUST be YYYYMMDD and therefore the ISO format is used (with or without the '-')
  183. [14:15:57] <trovster> http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcalendar/xhtml2vcal.xsl
  184. [14:16:32] <DanWrong> briansuda: so parse both?
  185. [14:17:11] <briansuda> what do you mean by PASER? are you parsing the DATE to extract YYYY or parsing HTML to extract the date?
  186. [14:18:46] <DanWrong> briansuda: Im basically trying to create a JavaScript Date from a date in a microformat
  187. [14:20:05] <briansuda> can you not case YYYYMMDD straight to a Javascript Data object?
  188. [14:20:51] <DanWrong> well, no, I'll need to match any format thats valid, munge it so JS's Date.parse will understand it then plug it in
  189. [14:21:04] <DanWrong> Date.parse in JavaScript is crap
  190. [14:21:52] <briansuda> what i do is just do a find and replace on "-" and ":" then i will always get YYYYMMDDTHHMMSS
  191. [14:21:57] <vbgunz> briansuda: nice cheat-, thanksheet
  192. [14:22:01] <briansuda> and then my date class works on that
  193. [14:22:08] <vbgunz> *nice cheat-sheet, thanks :P
  194. [14:22:58] <DanWrong> briansuda: just spotted this: http://tantek.com/log/2005/01.html#d26t0100
  195. [14:23:36] <DanWrong> so hyphens are basically optional
  196. [14:24:24] <DanWrong> but yeah, I can just normalise by stripping - and :
  197. [14:25:24] * edsu (n=esummers@208.68.173.106) has joined #microformats
  198. [14:25:25] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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  204. [14:58:53] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  211. [15:02:38] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
  212. [15:05:48] * danja (n=danja@host245-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
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  216. [15:21:16] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  218. [15:33:18] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  223. [16:09:47] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  226. [16:22:39] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  236. [16:58:23] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-1935ab41e6426447) has joined #microformats
  237. [16:58:23] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  238. [16:59:27] * mkaply gets conflicting information as to whether or not dtstart is mandatory in an hCalendar
  239. [16:59:53] <briansuda> mkaply, i have a link for you
  240. [17:00:30] * pecus (n=pecus@195.70.5.234) Quit (Connection timed out)
  241. [17:01:48] <mkaply> hmm. That seems wrong - If you just have a time then omit the "T" and the stuff preceding it
  242. [17:02:05] <mkaply> you can't do that, can you? If there was no punctuation, you wouldn't know if it was a date or time
  243. [17:03:16] * mkaply is shocked to read that dtend is exclusive
  244. [17:03:28] <briansuda> the ISO dates need the T
  245. [17:03:54] <briansuda> DTEND without a TIME is assumed to be 00:00:00 which is the first second of the day
  246. [17:04:07] <mkaply> yeah. I thought that was wrong (this is Roger Costello's presentation)
  247. [17:04:34] <mkaply> that's interesting. I have a problem where google events are all ending a day early (not just my problem - happens with upcoming as well)
  248. [17:04:46] <mkaply> The issue then is that google is doing things properly and yahoo is doing things wrong?
  249. [17:05:02] <briansuda> upcoming is incorrect
  250. [17:05:16] <briansuda> this has been noted somewhere
  251. [17:05:20] * pecus (n=pecus@195.70.5.234) has joined #microformats
  252. [17:06:39] <mkaply> the issue is that the same event with the same dtstart/dtend send to yahoo and google, google ends it a day earlier. So the issue would actually be with yahoo's calendar, would it not?
  253. [17:07:04] <briansuda> not sure, do you have an example?
  254. [17:07:50] <mkaply> http://upcoming.org/event/110145/
  255. [17:08:52] <mkaply> dtstart=2007-08-27 dtend=2007-09-03
  256. [17:09:27] <briansuda> that SHOULD end on sept 2nd
  257. [17:09:41] <briansuda> what does yahoo/google calendar do
  258. [17:10:42] <mkaply> yahoo ends it on 9/3 - google ends it on 9/2 - the actual event ends on 9/3
  259. [17:10:58] <mkaply> so upcoming is wrong - it should be 9/4 - google is right - yahoo calendar is wrong. interseting
  260. [17:11:04] <mkaply> I always thought google was the problem
  261. [17:12:09] <mkaply> with yahoo you pass this pattern - st=20070827&rend=%2b20070903&rpat=1dy&
  262. [17:12:20] <mkaply> with google you pass this pattern dates=20070827/20070903
  263. [17:12:58] <briansuda> well, it depends on if yahoo is modeling iCal or not
  264. [17:13:13] <briansuda> it is incorrect in that context
  265. [17:14:13] <mkaply> but this is only an issue when there is no time specified at all, correct?
  266. [17:14:21] * TylerR (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) has joined #microformats
  267. [17:14:30] <briansuda> correct
  268. [17:15:09] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  269. [17:15:59] <mkaply> so upcoming is definitely incorrect as you said. eventful doesn't specify any dates without times. So google will continue to be broke, but if I "fix" this in operator, yahoo will be broke with upcoming as well since their microformat are wrong
  270. [17:16:12] <mkaply> which is the "right" thing :)
  271. [17:17:22] * mkaply doesn't store the URL from which the event came so i can't do a hack just for upcoming - hate those anyway
  272. [17:18:01] <briansuda> i would say, go with the Spec.
  273. [17:18:05] <TylerR> Morning all.
  274. [17:18:08] <briansuda> outlook managed to get it right!
  275. [17:18:20] <briansuda> DTEND is exclusive
  276. [17:18:37] <mkaply> briansuda: I'll send a note to my upcoming contact.
  277. [17:18:49] <briansuda> good idea
  278. [17:19:54] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  279. [17:19:56] <briansuda> from: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/calsify/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-03.html
  280. [17:20:08] <briansuda> 2006-08-21 The rule eventprop specifies that DTSTAMP, DTSTART and UID are OPTIONAL which is in contradiction with section 4.8.7.2 Date/Time Stamp, section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start, and section 4.8.4.7 Unique Identifier which all specify that those three properties are REQUIRED in VEVENT components.
  281. [17:20:08] <briansuda> 2006-09-28 Resolution: Changed ABNF to specify that DTSTAMP, DTSTART and UID are REQUIRED.
  282. [17:20:32] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) has joined #microformats
  283. [17:20:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  284. [17:22:45] * Charl (n=Charl@196.21.192.15) Quit ()
  285. [17:22:56] <mkaply> upcoming.org has vevents with no dtstart on the front page as well as ocono.com - they basically only have a URL in them.
  286. [17:23:29] <briansuda> yeah, the RFC says that everything is optional!
  287. [17:23:46] <briansuda> but the update says that DTSTART and DTSTAMP and UID are required
  288. [17:23:56] <briansuda> i would say DTSTART and SUMMARY are the only 2 i need
  289. [17:28:33] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
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  293. [17:49:17] <mkaply> briansuda: Yeah. I find events without dtstart kind of annoying. All I can do is go to their web page
  294. [17:50:07] <briansuda> yeah, it is hardly an event if you don't know when to show up
  295. [17:54:36] <mkaply> although, is there a concept of a perpetual event? :) - party all the time
  296. [17:54:52] <bewest> there is in Hitchhiker's guide
  297. [17:55:03] <bewest> 60 year party or something
  298. [17:55:42] <briansuda> that still has a start time
  299. [17:57:02] <mkaply> true.
  300. [17:57:25] <briansuda> without a DTSTART it is just an FN and that's an hCard
  301. [17:59:53] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host217-42-76-246.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
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  304. [18:06:19] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  305. [18:06:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  306. [18:06:19] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  307. [18:07:27] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  308. [18:07:38] <bewest> 'morning, kingryan
  309. [18:07:49] <kingryan> mornin'
  310. [18:12:36] <TylerR> Howdy kingryan.
  311. [18:13:04] <kingryan> hi TylerR
  312. [18:13:48] <TylerR> How's work so far today?
  313. [18:14:10] <kingryan> well, I've only been here for 20 min
  314. [18:14:16] <kingryan> haven't even finished my coffee
  315. [18:14:23] <TylerR> Haha nice. :)
  316. [18:15:05] <TylerR> How's WTF coming along?
  317. [18:15:53] <kingryan> good, but I'm not working on it
  318. [18:16:08] <TylerR> Ah that was my next question. :)
  319. [18:17:32] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/blog/2007/02/08/new-mailing-list/
  320. [18:17:55] <kingryan> btw, I still need styling input on the link count widget thingy
  321. [18:18:08] <kingryan> I think it looks ugly but don't know how to make it look better
  322. [18:19:18] <TylerR> Which widget is that you're talking about?
  323. [18:19:21] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@adsl-71-138-44-81.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  324. [18:19:23] <TylerR> I'm looking around for it. :)
  325. [18:19:29] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  326. [18:19:40] <kingryan> on http://microformats.org/ the "n blog reactions" thingy
  327. [18:20:10] <TylerR> Ah that thing. :)
  328. [18:20:57] <TylerR> Is the Technorati icon making it so the full box isn't being displayed?
  329. [18:21:18] <kingryan> I don't now what's going on
  330. [18:21:39] <TylerR> I'll take a look in a little bit and see what I can find.
  331. [18:22:54] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.112.6.114.bbplus.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
  332. [18:23:00] <bewest> warning: failure to complete a cup of coffee can lead to confusion when daignosing issues or peppered with questions
  333. [18:26:46] * bewest also wrote about the new mailing list http://bewest.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/microformats-new-mailing-list/
  334. [18:27:14] <bewest> maybe I should link to the mf blog in the post
  335. [18:27:27] * bewest is too lazy to edit blog posts after they're published
  336. [18:27:32] <defunkt> hey cats, have a Q
  337. [18:27:34] <TylerR> I like how everyone at some time during the week mentions coffee at least once. That makes for potential users to an upcoming community site I'm working on.
  338. [18:27:45] <defunkt> <abbr class="location" title=""><a href="/venue/22369">Castro Theater</a>, San Francisco Bay Area, CA</abbr> --- why's the title blank? this is from upcoming.org
  339. [18:27:45] <kingryan> defunkt: shoot
  340. [18:27:47] * TylerR grins.
  341. [18:28:01] <kingryan> on abbr's the @title is used
  342. [18:28:05] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  343. [18:28:05] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
  344. [18:28:10] <defunkt> so does that mean the location should be blank?
  345. [18:28:21] <kingryan> from a parser's perspective, yes
  346. [18:28:24] <kingryan> just change abbr to span
  347. [18:28:29] <kingryan> or div or p or whatever
  348. [18:28:42] <defunkt> damn
  349. [18:28:53] <bewest> what happens if you have a @class~="value"
  350. [18:28:56] <bewest> on an abbr
  351. [18:29:03] <kingryan> use the @title
  352. [18:29:06] <bewest> or in an element that descends from abbr
  353. [18:29:07] <bewest> oh
  354. [18:29:11] <bewest> abbr always wins, eh?
  355. [18:29:13] <defunkt> any idea why they're doing it this way? seems... odd
  356. [18:29:30] <kingryan> <span class="location">foo<abbr class="value" title="bar">baz</abbr></span>
  357. [18:29:36] <kingryan> location = bar
  358. [18:29:46] <kingryan> defunkt: yes, it is odd
  359. [18:29:58] <bewest> defunkt: probably because it was the first thing that popped into the programmer's head and was easy to do very quickly
  360. [18:30:05] <defunkt> okay
  361. [18:30:09] <bewest> least energy state
  362. [18:30:32] <defunkt> next question: (obviously i've been working on locations) can a location (in hCalendar) have both a geo and an adr?
  363. [18:30:50] <defunkt> the spec seems kind of vague. i can quote the paragraph i dont understand if that helps
  364. [18:31:07] <kingryan> a location can be an entire hcard
  365. [18:31:07] <bewest> yes
  366. [18:31:11] <kingryan> so yes
  367. [18:31:19] <kingryan> see eventful.com's events
  368. [18:31:21] <defunkt> but what if there's no hcard present? not possible?
  369. [18:31:25] <defunkt> eventful.com, okay
  370. [18:31:38] <kingryan> defunkt: right
  371. [18:31:41] <bewest> it's legal to still have it, since any markup can be present
  372. [18:34:09] <defunkt> okay, cool
  373. [18:34:10] <defunkt> thanks guys
  374. [18:39:48] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("http://gmachina.com - gaming feeds in bulk")
  375. [18:43:26] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  376. [18:52:10] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=13386 * ChristopheDucamp * (+180) additions aux futures vCard -
  377. [18:54:35] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13387 * ChristopheDucamp * (+348) ADR -
  378. [18:59:18] <kingryan> hey bewest
  379. [18:59:32] <kingryan> I don't quite get what you're going at with the rel-tag contradiction
  380. [19:01:54] <bewest> the hcard spec (and friends) indicate that the subject of the tagged content is the hcard
  381. [19:02:03] <kingryan> right
  382. [19:02:42] <bewest> rel-tag parsers have no way of knowing that... the advice so far is to let the subject of tagged content be the page
  383. [19:02:58] <kingryan> sure
  384. [19:03:05] <bewest> this creates a mismatch in the functional model involved in processing and the mental model of the author
  385. [19:03:20] <bewest> there's no way for an author to know how rel-tag will be interpreted
  386. [19:03:28] <kingryan> ok, I understand that, but I think it's a theoretical problem
  387. [19:04:18] <kingryan> if you want to build a generic rel-tag parser, then you're going to have to deal with these ambiguities
  388. [19:04:20] <bewest> I don't understand how... I can't make heads or tails of it
  389. [19:04:31] <bewest> it's not about building parsers
  390. [19:04:34] <bewest> I'm talking about pubilshing behaviour
  391. [19:04:42] <bewest> publishing, too
  392. [19:05:03] <bewest> we've created a mechanism for authors to explicitly publish a piece of information
  393. [19:05:20] <bewest> except the spec undermines the explicit intent
  394. [19:05:36] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13388 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1827) Microsoft Outlook -
  395. [19:05:43] <KevinMarks> no, rel-tag's scope is left broad deliberately
  396. [19:05:51] <KevinMarks> so other formats can refine it
  397. [19:05:53] <kingryan> I don't think the intent is undermined
  398. [19:06:01] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13389 * ChristopheDucamp * (-348) ADR -
  399. [19:06:16] <kingryan> an author can't expect every consuming application to have the same level of fidelity in consuming their content
  400. [19:06:27] <bewest> that's fine
  401. [19:06:31] <KevinMarks> xfolk/hreview make the tag apply to the linked product, but the page still has the tag in
  402. [19:06:33] <kingryan> so, we've established a baseline, but then build more specific levels on top of it
  403. [19:06:34] <bewest> but that's not what the spec supports
  404. [19:06:42] <KevinMarks> which spec?
  405. [19:06:44] <bewest> the spec doesn't explain this at all
  406. [19:06:48] <bewest> rel-tag and friends
  407. [19:06:50] <bewest> for example
  408. [19:07:26] <bewest> at the minimum, I think we need to add to the hcard spec some verbiage that explains that any rel-tag usage may be interpreted such that the page itself, and not the hcard, may be treated as the subject of the tags
  409. [19:07:28] <kingryan> ok, then how can we explain it better in the spec?
  410. [19:07:49] <kingryan> why not just state this once, in rel-tag
  411. [19:07:50] <kingryan> ?
  412. [19:07:52] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13390 * ChristopheDucamp * (+34) N -
  413. [19:08:16] <bewest> because then it is unclear
  414. [19:08:18] <bewest> and confusing
  415. [19:08:25] <bewest> this issue is coming up over and over
  416. [19:09:02] <bewest> the reason it's coming up over and over isn't because the people raising it are uneducated
  417. [19:09:09] <bewest> and it's not just newcomers
  418. [19:09:24] <kingryan> but it seems to always be consumers, not publishers
  419. [19:09:35] <KevinMarks> we're nto accusing people of being uneducated
  420. [19:09:36] <bewest> right, which is why I'm now framing it around publishers
  421. [19:09:57] <KevinMarks> we need to find a way to express this better?
  422. [19:10:11] <bewest> KevinMarks: yeah, I know... however when an issue is consistently brushed aside, certain messages are sent, whether or not they were intended
  423. [19:10:18] <bewest> yes
  424. [19:10:24] <kingryan> but if publishers are having no problem, and consumers are having only theoretical problems, I don't see any real problem
  425. [19:10:39] <KevinMarks> I'm not trying to brush ti aside
  426. [19:10:56] <kingryan> I only brush it aside because its a FAQ
  427. [19:10:58] <bewest> all I'm saying is that from a publishing perspective, I can't tell what the subject of rel-tag is going to be
  428. [19:11:04] <KevinMarks> Scope
  429. [19:11:04] <KevinMarks> rel="tag" is specifically designed for "tagging" content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts).
  430. [19:11:04] <KevinMarks> rel="tag" is NOT designed for "tagging" arbitrary URLs or external content. There is demand for a general decentralized syntax for tagging URLs external to the current page, but this is not meant for that. See xFolk and hReview for ways to tag arbitrary URLs.
  431. [19:11:04] <KevinMarks> If you need to define tags as part of a more specialised format, rel="tag" is the recommended way to do so, and xFolk, hReview, hCard and hCalendar all do this.
  432. [19:11:11] <KevinMarks> how can we say this better
  433. [19:11:13] <bewest> because one spec indicates that the subject will only be the hcard
  434. [19:11:23] <bewest> and another spec says that sometimes it's some content, and sometimes it's the page
  435. [19:11:59] <KevinMarks> that 2nd sentence needs fixing, certainly
  436. [19:12:18] <kingryan> perhaps rel-tag should state that while rel-tag is generic, it can be redefined to be more specific by other formats
  437. [19:12:26] <bewest> then you've made it modal
  438. [19:12:33] <bewest> reducing it's uability for authors
  439. [19:12:48] <bewest> modality is to be avoided when possible
  440. [19:12:55] <bewest> there's plenty of usability studies for that
  441. [19:13:49] <kingryan> what do you mean by modal?
  442. [19:13:52] <KevinMarks> it's not modal
  443. [19:13:56] <KevinMarks> it's AND not OR
  444. [19:13:57] * kingryan hasn't finished his morning coffee yet
  445. [19:13:58] <bewest> how do you know that publishers aren't having a problem? modality is primarily an issue when the functional model is compared to a mental model of a user
  446. [19:15:23] <kingryan> are you suggesting that publishers aren't complaining because they don't know that they don't understand?
  447. [19:15:38] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13391 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1052) Apple Address Book -
  448. [19:16:19] <KevinMarks> the point is that a page containing a blogpost containing hReview that has a tag in, is a tagged page and post as well as the review
  449. [19:16:29] <KevinMarks> tags are loose and overlapping like that
  450. [19:16:59] <bewest> I'm saying the issue arises when you try to create a parser, but that the issue is still centered around publishers... when you try to implement a functional model for this it becomes extremely difficult to conform to the mental model laid out by the spec
  451. [19:16:59] <KevinMarks> it is down to the tag interpreter to decide how to constrain it
  452. [19:17:51] <KevinMarks> the technorati or icerocket post tag indexer looks at the posts
  453. [19:17:55] <bewest> that's a problem, KevinMarks
  454. [19:18:06] <KevinMarks> the microformat indexer looks at the review
  455. [19:18:13] <KevinMarks> no, it's choice by the indexer
  456. [19:18:14] <bewest> because this technique is a mechanism for an author to explicitly apply information to a subject
  457. [19:18:49] <bewest> when a parser does something other than what the author intended, that's a problem
  458. [19:18:52] <KevinMarks> Google's indexer will ignore the mf's but still see the words in the link text
  459. [19:19:25] <bewest> I'm not sure that's a good comparison
  460. [19:20:18] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abx104.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  461. [19:20:58] <bewest> there is a big assumption here: subjects of microformats are also the subjects of the page, or are at least highly correlated
  462. [19:21:11] <KevinMarks> they are all trying to extract meaning; those that work harder at understanding the microformats intent do a better job
  463. [19:21:28] <bewest> KevinMarks: yes... and rel-tag provides an explicit mechanism to do so
  464. [19:22:08] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13392 * ChristopheDucamp * (+417) Commentaires Généraux -
  465. [19:22:30] <bewest> so authors have a mechanism to specify something, but our powerless to predict the application
  466. [19:22:44] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13393 * ChristopheDucamp * (+18) Contributeurs -
  467. [19:23:54] <KevinMarks> and hReview refines it further
  468. [19:24:52] <bewest> when I publish categories applied to my friend via hcard + rel-tag, I've provided an explicit association. other human consumers are going to understand this association. parsers are not.
  469. [19:25:20] <bewest> one way to dampen the impact of this expectation is to explicitly state that if you publish rel-tag it may be applied to the page rather than some content on the page
  470. [19:25:30] <bewest> rel-tag spec goes most of the way there, but the other specs need to state it too
  471. [19:25:57] <bewest> because if you read hReview or hcard, that's not the understanding one would come away with
  472. [19:26:21] <bewest> which is why this issue keeps coming up
  473. [19:26:57] <bewest> also, it should be recommended that any user interface assisting authors in producing these constructs should also make it clear that rel-tag useage could be applied to the page as a whole
  474. [19:27:01] <bewest> it's only fair to authors...
  475. [19:28:36] <bengee> it's not an issue, really, bewest. every format that uses rel-tag links to the rel-tag wiki page where it's stated that rel-tag applies to the page
  476. [19:28:40] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-245-070.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  477. [19:29:01] <bewest> bengee: then why do poeple continue to misunderstand it?
  478. [19:29:07] <bengee> and parser/aggregator implementors are very likely to check all the pages
  479. [19:29:30] <bewest> bengee: agreed... so why do people continue to be confused?
  480. [19:29:35] <bewest> including me
  481. [19:30:27] <bewest> please don't say it's not an issue... the message that this imparts on people who have done their homework is very negative and damaging
  482. [19:32:09] <kingryan> bewest: I agree that there's an issue, I'm just not sure what it is
  483. [19:32:33] <bewest> I agree we should focus on being user-centric
  484. [19:32:55] <bengee> I tried to poke a hole in that scoping thing myself, but the model is actually sound. but I'm an RDFer, so my context (thinking in triples) didn't really match with MFs at first
  485. [19:33:26] <bewest> what is the currently the most popular form of publishgin rel-tag?
  486. [19:33:31] <bewest> I would guess blogs
  487. [19:33:55] <kingryan> yes "Technorati Tags" as they're often called
  488. [19:34:06] <bewest> how do authors provide this markup?
  489. [19:34:13] <bewest> does a user interface aide them, typically?
  490. [19:34:20] <KevinMarks> well, LJ and blogspot now
  491. [19:34:33] <KevinMarks> yes, they have a type-in tags box
  492. [19:34:34] <kingryan> sometimes, alot write them by hand, too
  493. [19:34:36] <monkinetic> and UTW for wp
  494. [19:34:38] <bewest> in this case, the assumption holds up quite well
  495. [19:34:53] <KevinMarks> Wp does it via categories natively now
  496. [19:34:54] <bewest> the subject of microformatted content /is/ basically also the subject of the page
  497. [19:35:27] <bewest> what is the intended use case for hcard? are there any hcards published in the content of blog posts?
  498. [19:35:42] <KevinMarks> for post authors or commenters
  499. [19:35:52] <KevinMarks> or blog authors
  500. [19:36:20] <bewest> is it likely that categories applied to an hcard would also be published with the aid of some UI?
  501. [19:36:51] <bewest> according to the hcard spec, what will the user's mental model for the subject of those hcard categories be?
  502. [19:37:44] <bewest> what will a reader's mental model of those categories be?
  503. [19:38:42] <bewest> to me it's clear: the subject of the categories specified in an hcard is different than the subject of the tags specified for the blog post
  504. [19:38:58] <bewest> why? because it's explicitly defined
  505. [19:39:15] <bewest> and as an author, I took the time and effort to specify them separately
  506. [19:39:22] <bewest> and my readers will interpret it the same way
  507. [19:39:33] <KevinMarks> not necessarily
  508. [19:40:01] <KevinMarks> do you have ane xample of a tagged hcard in a blogpost we can use for context?
  509. [19:41:16] <bewest> no... I'm willing to concede that it may not be a problem if the historical record shows that people don't publish in this manner
  510. [19:41:33] <bewest> but at the minimum, it /is/ confusing for people reading these specs
  511. [19:42:04] * RobertBachmann (n=rb@M2513P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  512. [19:42:04] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at> from Austria (TZ: 0100)
  513. [19:42:21] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) Quit ("Leaving")
  514. [19:43:48] <KevinMarks> your example of labelling friends hCrads is more like XFN's core role
  515. [19:44:08] <KevinMarks> but the assumption there si that their identifier is a URL (Which woudl presumably ahve their hcard in)
  516. [19:46:40] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) Quit ()
  517. [19:47:28] * joernba (n=joern@host40-82-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  518. [19:48:06] <bewest> put another way: why would an author specifying categories for an hcard expect those categories to apply to the page, when they already explicitly provided tags for the page elsewhere?
  519. [19:48:40] <bewest> the hcard spec does not indicate that this might happen
  520. [19:49:43] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
  521. [19:50:37] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("switching wifi")
  522. [19:52:03] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host86-140-70-111.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  523. [19:52:04] <jibot> JamieKnight is jamie knight, a young web developer based in the UK. keeping his blog at http://jkg3.com
  524. [19:52:13] <JamieKnight> hiya,
  525. [19:56:16] * joernba (n=joern@host40-82-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  526. [19:57:05] <TylerR> Hi.
  527. [19:57:11] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl081-245-070.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  528. [19:57:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  529. [19:57:31] <JamieKnight> hiya KevinMarks
  530. [19:57:41] <JamieKnight> hiya TylerR how be you?
  531. [19:58:05] <TylerR> Fairly well, busy at work but looking forward to the evening.
  532. [19:58:19] <JamieKnight> good, good,
  533. [19:58:27] <JamieKnight> did they come up with a great name for you?
  534. [19:59:23] <KevinMarks> hello
  535. [19:59:35] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  536. [19:59:57] <JamieKnight> how be you KevinMarks ?
  537. [20:00:28] <KevinMarks> good
  538. [20:02:22] <JamieKnight> anything intresting going on for you?
  539. [20:03:19] <TylerR> JamieKnight: Unfortunately they directed me to marketing, which I want to avoid like the plague. haha
  540. [20:03:30] <JamieKnight> hehe,
  541. [20:03:47] <JamieKnight> i did my work experience ina marketing department at a collage, i hated it,
  542. [20:03:56] <TylerR> I'm still open for suggestions.
  543. [20:04:05] <TylerR> 1) Has to be .com available.
  544. [20:04:12] <TylerR> 2) 1-3 syllables preferable.
  545. [20:04:14] <JamieKnight> whats the theme?
  546. [20:04:28] <TylerR> Coffee shop/community.
  547. [20:04:57] <JamieKnight> cupstop.com
  548. [20:05:35] <TylerR> Let's bring this to PM
  549. [20:05:40] <JamieKnight> okay,
  550. [20:05:42] <TylerR> MF isn't the place for domain discussion. :)
  551. [20:05:52] <JamieKnight> true,
  552. [20:05:54] * lucasvo_ (n=lucasvo@wservices.ch) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  553. [20:07:03] * tantek (n=tantek@206.47.9.3) has joined #microformats
  554. [20:07:03] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  555. [20:07:03] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  556. [20:07:14] <JamieKnight> hiya tantek
  557. [20:07:17] <bewest> TylerR: freshgrinds.com
  558. [20:07:37] <JamieKnight> hiya bewest
  559. [20:07:53] <TylerR> bewest: You do realize that may just be the most solid name yet.
  560. [20:07:54] <TylerR> :D
  561. [20:08:10] * tantek attempts to catchup on the list. again.
  562. [20:09:17] <TylerR> Hey tantek, how is WDN going?
  563. [20:09:20] <TylerR> Did your talk go well?
  564. [20:10:01] <tantek> indeed - WDN is going well. lots of folks at the microformats talks.
  565. [20:10:33] <TylerR> Lovely! I wish I was able to go. A late minute no-go from management since other devs are going to Mix07 in April. :\
  566. [20:10:40] <TylerR> Oh well, I definitely plan on attending next year.
  567. [20:10:42] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  568. [20:11:03] <JamieKnight> to far for me,
  569. [20:11:32] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.10) has joined #microformats
  570. [20:11:37] * lhalff (n=lhalff@207.34.158.233) has joined #microformats
  571. [20:13:06] * lhalff (n=lhalff@207.34.158.233) Quit (Client Quit)
  572. [20:13:13] * lhalff (n=lhalff@207.34.158.233) has joined #microformats
  573. [20:13:37] * tantek_ (n=tantek@206.47.9.3) has joined #microformats
  574. [20:13:49] * tantek (n=tantek@206.47.9.3) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  575. [20:14:57] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  576. [20:14:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  577. [20:23:51] <tantek> real quick - who here has joined the new microformats-new mailing list?
  578. [20:24:04] <JamieKnight> i will be,
  579. [20:24:05] <TylerR> I'll be joining this afternoon.
  580. [20:24:34] <JamieKnight> nice one alun: http://flickr.com/photos/alunr/377601128/?#comment72157594525073610
  581. [20:24:57] <kingryan> tantek: we have about 25 members now
  582. [20:25:59] * tantek is still catching up on 100+ new emails on the collective microformats mailing lists, but we need to encourage *all* new microformats development to be discussed on microformats-new, NOT microformats-discuss, including microformats that were *already* in development, like citation, media-info etc.
  583. [20:26:10] <kingryan> alright
  584. [20:26:37] <JamieKnight> hmmm,
  585. [20:26:57] <tantek> the whole point of creating the list was to move all the new microformats discussion/thrashing to different list so it would stop crowding out all the "how to" and other general informative discussions of currently well established microformats.
  586. [20:27:10] <tantek> thus it doesn't make any sense to continue thrashing citation etc. on the -discuss list.
  587. [20:27:17] <tantek> not sure how that was not obvious to folks
  588. [20:30:25] <bewest> I've joined
  589. [20:30:30] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  590. [20:30:30] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  591. [20:30:36] * lucasvo (n=lucasvo@wservices.ch) has joined #microformats
  592. [20:31:21] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  593. [20:32:07] * nfolson (n=nfolson@CPE-76-177-177-204.natsoe.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  594. [20:41:07] * tantek (n=tantek@206.47.9.3) Quit ()
  595. [20:41:08] <KevinMarks> me
  596. [20:41:59] * RobertBachmann (n=rb@M2513P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving.")
  597. [20:44:41] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  598. [20:53:05] <JamieKnight> joined,
  599. [20:54:04] <monkinetic> #xfn
  600. [20:55:35] <JamieKnight> anoyone have any advice oin writing to the dev list about my gmail implimentation
  601. [20:59:31] * lhalff (n=lhalff@207.34.158.233) has left #microformats
  602. [21:16:19] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  603. [21:18:04] * sillygwailo (n=richard@pdpc/supporter/active/sillygwailo) has joined #microformats
  604. [21:18:38] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  605. [21:19:29] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
  606. [21:21:54] <monkinetic> can XFN be scoped to an hcard?
  607. [21:22:11] <monkinetic> if the links are contained in said hcard?
  608. [21:22:32] <monkinetic> how should parsers treat two hcards on a page each containing XFN links
  609. [21:24:26] <briansuda> monkinetic? i'm not sure what you mean, XFN is for the page. It is the relationship between the page author and the linked person
  610. [21:25:05] <monkinetic> ok, so there's no concept of "joe's XFN links in his hcard" and "seth's XFN links in his hcard" on one page
  611. [21:25:35] <bewest> no
  612. [21:25:37] <bewest> no scoping
  613. [21:25:44] <monkinetic> i did not think so, just checking
  614. [21:41:40] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.113.82.155.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  615. [21:45:59] * JamieKnight_ (n=chatzill@host86-140-70-111.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  616. [21:47:22] <JamieKnight_> ahh, nuts, what do you do if you send a messag eot the wrong mailing list?
  617. [21:47:37] <JamieKnight_> *to yhe wrong list rather
  618. [21:50:08] <briansuda> resend it to the correct one
  619. [21:50:43] <sillygwailo> and follow up on the wrong one by saying "oops, sorry, wrong list"
  620. [21:50:59] <JamieKnight_> thanks,
  621. [21:51:24] * OpenStandards (n=vir@ACBD0BC0.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  622. [21:52:24] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host86-140-70-111.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  623. [21:53:54] <sreynen> aw man, i was all excited to see the first message to the -new list...
  624. [21:54:03] <JamieKnight_> sorry,
  625. [21:54:34] * JamieKnight_ relises it is now going to go down that the first message to the -new list was a mistake
  626. [21:54:47] * JamieKnight_ is now known as JamieKnight
  627. [21:55:05] * edsu (n=esummers@208.68.173.106) Quit ("leaving")
  628. [21:55:11] <sreynen> i'm sure it won't be the last
  629. [21:55:18] <sreynen> don't worry about it
  630. [21:55:42] <JamieKnight> well, at least we know the list works,
  631. [21:55:45] <JamieKnight> :D
  632. [21:56:17] <kingryan> sreynen: doesn't my test message count? :D
  633. [21:56:34] <sreynen> oh, that was before i was on the list
  634. [21:56:53] <JamieKnight> hiya ryan,
  635. [21:57:06] <sreynen> nothing counts before i'm on the list
  636. [21:57:35] <kingryan> if a message goes to a list, but no one's subscribed, does it make a sound?
  637. [21:57:47] <JamieKnight> hehe,
  638. [21:57:52] <briansuda> yes, the sound of one hand clapping
  639. [21:58:05] * JamieKnight is sure we need a cat and a box for this one, and a radioactive isotope...
  640. [21:58:08] <sreynen> who knew lists were so deep
  641. [21:58:29] * JamieKnight forgots the posiion, always the posision
  642. [22:00:00] * JamieKnight is going to go to bed soon, thinks he might have eaten bad cereal earlier,
  643. [22:01:06] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  644. [22:01:21] <JamieKnight> g'night all, sleep good when you get there,
  645. [22:01:42] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host86-140-70-111.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("badly needs sleep to cure upset stomach")
  646. [22:06:18] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
  647. [22:07:41] * sillygwailo (n=richard@pdpc/supporter/active/sillygwailo) has left #microformats
  648. [22:11:49] * nfolson (n=nfolson@CPE-76-177-177-204.natsoe.res.rr.com) has left #microformats
  649. [22:12:13] * monkinetic (i=redmonk@bia.crschmidt.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  650. [22:13:42] * monkinetic (i=redmonk@bia.crschmidt.net) has joined #microformats
  651. [22:25:21] * danja (n=danja@host245-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  652. [22:26:12] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.113.82.155.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
  653. [22:40:34] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  654. [22:41:18] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1177644207.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #microformats
  655. [22:42:29] * danja (n=danja@80.104.220.245) has joined #microformats
  656. [22:42:29] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  657. [22:42:40] <bewest> kingryan: does mailman have some facility to send a message of our choosing along with the confirmation message?
  658. [22:42:52] * danja (n=danja@80.104.220.245) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  659. [22:43:02] <kingryan> yes
  660. [22:43:16] <bewest> kingryan: perhaps we should draft a message to the effect of "welcome, here are some ground rules. here's the topic for this list, and other lists nearby..."
  661. [22:43:31] <kingryan> we can add that to the welcome message
  662. [22:43:35] <bewest> yes
  663. [22:46:00] <kingryan> write something up and I'll add it
  664. [22:49:38] <bewest> hmmm
  665. [22:49:46] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-197-25-180.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  666. [22:49:46] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
  667. [22:49:52] <bewest> I'll justput it on the to-do list for now
  668. [22:49:55] <bewest> lazyweb that sucker
  669. [22:50:41] <mkaply> briansuda: ping
  670. [22:51:07] <briansuda> yo
  671. [22:51:29] <mkaply> I noticed that when you grab the note(s) from an hCard, you just grab the textContent and strip out the HTML and stuff...
  672. [22:51:48] <mkaply> Is that mainly as it relates to passing it to a vCard?
  673. [22:52:13] <mkaply> In otherwords, should I strip that stuff when I first get it out of the DOM node? Or should I hold onto it with formatting and clean it up based on where I am sending the data.
  674. [22:52:29] <briansuda> it is up to you.
  675. [22:52:34] <mkaply> I know there's a pretty serious spec that tantek wrote about text parsing HTML
  676. [22:52:47] <briansuda> i thought i was trying to do some fancy stuff with the TEXT?
  677. [22:52:52] <briansuda> maybe that was with hCal?
  678. [22:53:17] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=13394 * BenWest * (+495) Lazyweb - add some todo items regarding the creation of the new list.
  679. [22:53:30] <mkaply> In looking at some sites that try to do interesting stuff with the summary (like eventful for instance) it looks better if they hadn't tried to convert the HTML to text :)
  680. [22:53:56] * bewest would really prefer a proper issue tracker
  681. [22:54:11] * bewest always takes DanC's recommendations seriously
  682. [22:54:21] <bewest> I started playing around with a roundup installation
  683. [22:54:35] <bewest> it's a bit rough on the eyes till you soften and remove many of the harsh lines
  684. [22:54:52] <mkaply> bewest: I searched and searched for a simple issue tracker. Couldn't find an open source one. They are all written by people who think WAY too complicated.
  685. [22:55:00] <bewest> mkaply: try roundup
  686. [22:55:04] <bewest> or mantis
  687. [22:55:20] <bewest> I'd like to see a RESTful service ala evdb for issue tracking
  688. [22:55:34] <mkaply> mantis was the one I was going to try. Roundup required too much tweaking
  689. [22:55:39] * kingryan wishes there were a simple tracker that supported openid
  690. [22:55:50] <mkaply> I basically wanted simple send email somewhere for an issue. Get lists of issues, close issues.
  691. [22:55:53] <mkaply> maybe some priority
  692. [22:55:59] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  693. [22:56:39] * bewest considers CMSs harmful because it encourages a tight couping between business/application logic and user interface
  694. [22:57:29] <bewest> just create a great web service... let others figure out how users need to interact with it
  695. [22:57:38] <hober> I've been pretty pleased with Google Code's project hosting's issue tracker
  696. [22:57:45] <bewest> oh yeah?
  697. [22:57:46] <mkaply> depends on the CMS. I love CMS Made Simple because it doesn't "require" a specific UI - it just give good separation of the data and the layout
  698. [22:58:13] <bewest> I noticed they carried over the labels idea from gmail
  699. [22:58:42] <bewest> mkaply: I usually find that even when they do that, they provide programmatic interfaces which inevitably limit what you can do with the user interface
  700. [22:58:46] <bewest> user interface is more than just layout
  701. [22:59:43] <mkaply> bewest: true. It's extensible via PHP so it's able to do a lot of stuff. My main requirement was "anyone can update the page" and "easy to migrate an existing site"
  702. [22:59:52] <mkaply> Most CMSs fall down BIG time on number two
  703. [22:59:53] <bewest> for example, even very good CMSs tend to assume that the only consumers of the data are the interfaces to create the website presentation
  704. [23:00:28] <bewest> some of them provide RSS feeds, which is only slightly better
  705. [23:00:58] <mkaply> I swear I'm not plugging CMs made simpel too hard :) - this http://www.calvaryaustin.org/sitemap.xml
  706. [23:01:12] <mkaply> was actually generated by CMS made simple. it has APIs to access all the site data to generate different content.
  707. [23:01:16] <mkaply> Anyway. I have to run. Later all
  708. [23:01:29] <bewest> seeya
  709. [23:01:48] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-1935ab41e6426447) Quit ("Leaving")
  710. [23:01:54] <bewest> yeah, but it's still assumed you are serving the data for consumption on the website...
  711. [23:03:53] * nostrich is now known as nstrich
  712. [23:17:12] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  713. [23:19:22] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-197-25-180.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120417]")
  714. [23:25:52] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  715. [23:36:05] * briansuda (n=briansud@dsl-219-147.hive.is) Quit ()
  716. [23:46:25] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  717. [23:46:25] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  718. [23:57:03] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=13395 * LibraryGuy * (+180) References -
  719. [23:57:08] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")

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