IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-08
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:00:00] <TylerR>
Haha kingryan. I wonder who that could be... **whistles unknowningly**
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- [00:00:07] <JamieKnight>
tantek?
- [00:00:11] <kingryan>
yeah
- [00:00:21] <JamieKnight>
ahhh,
- [00:01:43] <JamieKnight>
i enjoy learning about intresting things so i like microfrmats, and it helps with my work so its a win win,
- [00:02:01] <JamieKnight>
and, that isent even mentioing thier future (and current) use in the web at general,
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- [00:49:35] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13384 * RobCottingham * (-221) Examples -
- [00:50:40] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13385 * RobCottingham * (+221) New Examples -
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- [00:56:03] <sreynen>
FYI, microformats in drupal: http://groups.drupal.org/node/2601
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- [01:49:52] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [02:34:27] <KevinMarks>
http://jdil.org/ is a remarkable exercise in point-missing
- [02:34:58] <KevinMarks>
The construction:
- [02:34:58] <KevinMarks>
{"@type":"xsd:decimal","@value":33}
- [02:34:58] <KevinMarks>
represents the assignment of the datatype "xsd:decimal" to the numeral 33.
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- [02:35:48] <othermaciej>
whoah, namespaces in JSON
- [02:36:07] <KevinMarks>
and for an encore, DF in JSON
- [02:36:11] <othermaciej>
and schemas
- [02:36:13] <KevinMarks>
RDF*
- [02:36:59] <othermaciej>
I guess you can make anything suck if you try hard enough
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- [03:21:38] <jibot>
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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- [03:58:34] <jibot>
redmonk is Steve Ivy, http://redmonk.net and is linklogging at http://deliciouslymeta.com
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- [04:22:00] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [06:01:34] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [06:15:54] <TylerR>
Evening KevinMarks.
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- [07:07:11] <defunkt>
anyone have a sec to answer a question about <abbr>?
- [07:07:18] <defunkt>
basically, if an hCalendar has this, what's the location? <abbr class="location" title=""><a href="/venue/281">Avalon</a>, Boston, MA</abbr>
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- [07:47:55] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [07:51:35] <jibot>
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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- [08:19:57] <KevinMarks>
evening
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- [08:59:00] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [09:29:48] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [09:34:23] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [10:48:31] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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- [12:34:21] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [12:35:49] <jibot>
redmonk is Steve Ivy, http://redmonk.net and is linklogging at http://deliciouslymeta.com
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- [13:11:02] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [13:46:12] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [14:00:03] <DanWrong>
hello, anyone about?
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- [14:01:08] <DanWrong>
I'm writing a parse and I'm a little confused about the date format stuff
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- [14:04:34] <trovster>
DanWrong: Wassup?
- [14:04:47] <DanWrong>
ello
- [14:04:56] <trovster>
Dates must follow the abbr-pattern - http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern
- [14:05:34] <DanWrong>
well, on microformats.org it say it should be ISO8601
- [14:05:55] <DanWrong>
but I see alot of stuff about that uses a YYYYMMMDD type format
- [14:06:08] <DanWrong>
so are both allowed?
- [14:06:19] <DanWrong>
or is the later one not valid?
- [14:07:04] <trovster>
Should be YYYY-MM-DD i think
- [14:07:26] <trovster>
'machine readable ISO8601 datetime or date as the value'
- [14:07:27] <vbgunz>
I read a lot on microformats.. I think I might be a little confused. Is a microformat basically a design pattern mainly found in XHTML? is it a sort of pattern that defines data that is not only human readable but easily parsed by for data mining? Also, is microformats.org the definitive site for *learning* how to apply and create microformats?
- [14:07:53] <trovster>
vbgunz: HTML as well.
- [14:08:23] <trovster>
It's adding more meaning to data, which is first human readable, but also machine readable, correct.
- [14:08:31] <DanWrong>
Hmm, yeah, thats what the site says but there's a lot of examples about the other way....including ones linked from microformats.org
- [14:08:41] <trovster>
The wiki is pretty impressive, and there is also a mailing list.
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- [14:08:46] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [14:09:32] <trovster>
DanWrong: Not 100%, I use yyyy-mm-dd or YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ssTZD
- [14:09:42] <vbgunz>
ok, I think I will give it a try
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- [14:09:50] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
- [14:09:58] <trovster>
According to the spec YYYYMMDD is incorrect, however, it might be worth looking at what existing parsers do
- [14:10:21] <DanWrong>
tails seems to parse both
- [14:10:30] <vbgunz>
but basically all my question equate to "yes", am I correct? Am I missing anything is that basically the summary of mf?
- [14:10:38] <DanWrong>
i better put both in
- [14:10:53] <trovster>
vbgunz: It's not solely XHTML, it is HTML as well (pedantic)
- [14:10:53] <DanWrong>
trovster: BarCampLondoning?
- [14:10:54] <vbgunz>
YYYYMMDD is sort of universal *2 cents*
- [14:11:07] <DanWrong>
hmm, yeha
- [14:11:15] <trovster>
What type of universal?
- [14:11:23] <trovster>
http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime doesn't mention it
- [14:11:29] <DanWrong>
damn, i was trying to make this parser small
- [14:11:53] <vbgunz>
trovster: I am not good with dates but some programming languages and database management systems always prefer that style
- [14:11:59] <trovster>
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3339.html has no mention of YYYYMM either
- [14:12:16] <trovster>
MySQL is YYYY-MM-DD... not sure what else to cite.
- [14:13:05] <DanWrong>
the other thing is because YYYMMDD is not a standard as such I have no idea how times are represented in that format...other whether people even do times that way
- [14:13:08] <vbgunz>
trovster: I've seen it more in my studies and learned it better than the more comfortable MM-DD-YYYY :) personally I am not good with dates but I've seen it plenty :)
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- [14:13:12] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [14:13:43] <trovster>
Might be worth looking at the parser from briansuda
- [14:13:59] <trovster>
vbgunz: MM-DD-YYYY is never comfortable and just doesn't make sense.
- [14:14:20] <DanWrong>
trovster: yup, good plan....know where the source is?
- [14:14:43] <trovster>
ttp://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/ isn't loading for me, though
- [14:14:58] <vbgunz>
trovster: I am American and it makes too much sense for me :)
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- [14:15:51] <briansuda>
this issue is with the iCalendar spec, it MUST be YYYYMMDD and therefore the ISO format is used (with or without the '-')
- [14:15:57] <trovster>
http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcalendar/xhtml2vcal.xsl
- [14:16:32] <DanWrong>
briansuda: so parse both?
- [14:17:11] <briansuda>
what do you mean by PASER? are you parsing the DATE to extract YYYY or parsing HTML to extract the date?
- [14:18:46] <DanWrong>
briansuda: Im basically trying to create a JavaScript Date from a date in a microformat
- [14:20:05] <briansuda>
can you not case YYYYMMDD straight to a Javascript Data object?
- [14:20:51] <DanWrong>
well, no, I'll need to match any format thats valid, munge it so JS's Date.parse will understand it then plug it in
- [14:21:04] <DanWrong>
Date.parse in JavaScript is crap
- [14:21:52] <briansuda>
what i do is just do a find and replace on "-" and ":" then i will always get YYYYMMDDTHHMMSS
- [14:21:57] <vbgunz>
briansuda: nice cheat-, thanksheet
- [14:22:01] <briansuda>
and then my date class works on that
- [14:22:08] <vbgunz>
*nice cheat-sheet, thanks :P
- [14:22:58] <DanWrong>
briansuda: just spotted this: http://tantek.com/log/2005/01.html#d26t0100
- [14:23:36] <DanWrong>
so hyphens are basically optional
- [14:24:24] <DanWrong>
but yeah, I can just normalise by stripping - and :
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- [14:25:25] <jibot>
edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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- [14:58:53] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [15:02:38] <jibot>
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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- [15:21:16] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [15:33:18] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [15:33:18] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [16:09:47] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [16:22:39] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [16:58:23] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
- [16:59:27] * mkaply gets conflicting information as to whether or not dtstart is mandatory in an hCalendar
- [16:59:53] <briansuda>
mkaply, i have a link for you
- [17:00:30] * pecus (n=pecus@195.70.5.234) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [17:01:48] <mkaply>
hmm. That seems wrong - If you just have a time then omit the "T" and the stuff preceding it
- [17:02:05] <mkaply>
you can't do that, can you? If there was no punctuation, you wouldn't know if it was a date or time
- [17:03:16] * mkaply is shocked to read that dtend is exclusive
- [17:03:28] <briansuda>
the ISO dates need the T
- [17:03:54] <briansuda>
DTEND without a TIME is assumed to be 00:00:00 which is the first second of the day
- [17:04:07] <mkaply>
yeah. I thought that was wrong (this is Roger Costello's presentation)
- [17:04:34] <mkaply>
that's interesting. I have a problem where google events are all ending a day early (not just my problem - happens with upcoming as well)
- [17:04:46] <mkaply>
The issue then is that google is doing things properly and yahoo is doing things wrong?
- [17:05:02] <briansuda>
upcoming is incorrect
- [17:05:16] <briansuda>
this has been noted somewhere
- [17:05:20] * pecus (n=pecus@195.70.5.234) has joined #microformats
- [17:06:39] <mkaply>
the issue is that the same event with the same dtstart/dtend send to yahoo and google, google ends it a day earlier. So the issue would actually be with yahoo's calendar, would it not?
- [17:07:04] <briansuda>
not sure, do you have an example?
- [17:07:50] <mkaply>
http://upcoming.org/event/110145/
- [17:08:52] <mkaply>
dtstart=2007-08-27 dtend=2007-09-03
- [17:09:27] <briansuda>
that SHOULD end on sept 2nd
- [17:09:41] <briansuda>
what does yahoo/google calendar do
- [17:10:42] <mkaply>
yahoo ends it on 9/3 - google ends it on 9/2 - the actual event ends on 9/3
- [17:10:58] <mkaply>
so upcoming is wrong - it should be 9/4 - google is right - yahoo calendar is wrong. interseting
- [17:11:04] <mkaply>
I always thought google was the problem
- [17:12:09] <mkaply>
with yahoo you pass this pattern - st=20070827&rend=%2b20070903&rpat=1dy&
- [17:12:20] <mkaply>
with google you pass this pattern dates=20070827/20070903
- [17:12:58] <briansuda>
well, it depends on if yahoo is modeling iCal or not
- [17:13:13] <briansuda>
it is incorrect in that context
- [17:14:13] <mkaply>
but this is only an issue when there is no time specified at all, correct?
- [17:14:21] * TylerR (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) has joined #microformats
- [17:14:30] <briansuda>
correct
- [17:15:09] * bear_afk is now known as bear
- [17:15:59] <mkaply>
so upcoming is definitely incorrect as you said. eventful doesn't specify any dates without times. So google will continue to be broke, but if I "fix" this in operator, yahoo will be broke with upcoming as well since their microformat are wrong
- [17:16:12] <mkaply>
which is the "right" thing :)
- [17:17:22] * mkaply doesn't store the URL from which the event came so i can't do a hack just for upcoming - hate those anyway
- [17:18:01] <briansuda>
i would say, go with the Spec.
- [17:18:05] <TylerR>
Morning all.
- [17:18:08] <briansuda>
outlook managed to get it right!
- [17:18:20] <briansuda>
DTEND is exclusive
- [17:18:37] <mkaply>
briansuda: I'll send a note to my upcoming contact.
- [17:18:49] <briansuda>
good idea
- [17:19:54] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [17:19:56] <briansuda>
from: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/calsify/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-03.html
- [17:20:08] <briansuda>
2006-08-21 The rule eventprop specifies that DTSTAMP, DTSTART and UID are OPTIONAL which is in contradiction with section 4.8.7.2 Date/Time Stamp, section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start, and section 4.8.4.7 Unique Identifier which all specify that those three properties are REQUIRED in VEVENT components.
- [17:20:08] <briansuda>
2006-09-28 Resolution: Changed ABNF to specify that DTSTAMP, DTSTART and UID are REQUIRED.
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- [17:22:45] * Charl (n=Charl@196.21.192.15) Quit ()
- [17:22:56] <mkaply>
upcoming.org has vevents with no dtstart on the front page as well as ocono.com - they basically only have a URL in them.
- [17:23:29] <briansuda>
yeah, the RFC says that everything is optional!
- [17:23:46] <briansuda>
but the update says that DTSTART and DTSTAMP and UID are required
- [17:23:56] <briansuda>
i would say DTSTART and SUMMARY are the only 2 i need
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- [17:49:17] <mkaply>
briansuda: Yeah. I find events without dtstart kind of annoying. All I can do is go to their web page
- [17:50:07] <briansuda>
yeah, it is hardly an event if you don't know when to show up
- [17:54:36] <mkaply>
although, is there a concept of a perpetual event? :) - party all the time
- [17:54:52] <bewest>
there is in Hitchhiker's guide
- [17:55:03] <bewest>
60 year party or something
- [17:55:42] <briansuda>
that still has a start time
- [17:57:02] <mkaply>
true.
- [17:57:25] <briansuda>
without a DTSTART it is just an FN and that's an hCard
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- [18:03:38] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
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- [18:06:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [18:06:19] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [18:07:27] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
- [18:07:38] <bewest>
'morning, kingryan
- [18:07:49] <kingryan>
mornin'
- [18:12:36] <TylerR>
Howdy kingryan.
- [18:13:04] <kingryan>
hi TylerR
- [18:13:48] <TylerR>
How's work so far today?
- [18:14:10] <kingryan>
well, I've only been here for 20 min
- [18:14:16] <kingryan>
haven't even finished my coffee
- [18:14:23] <TylerR>
Haha nice. :)
- [18:15:05] <TylerR>
How's WTF coming along?
- [18:15:53] <kingryan>
good, but I'm not working on it
- [18:16:08] <TylerR>
Ah that was my next question. :)
- [18:17:32] <kingryan>
http://microformats.org/blog/2007/02/08/new-mailing-list/
- [18:17:55] <kingryan>
btw, I still need styling input on the link count widget thingy
- [18:18:08] <kingryan>
I think it looks ugly but don't know how to make it look better
- [18:19:18] <TylerR>
Which widget is that you're talking about?
- [18:19:21] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@adsl-71-138-44-81.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:19:23] <TylerR>
I'm looking around for it. :)
- [18:19:29] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [18:19:40] <kingryan>
on http://microformats.org/ the "n blog reactions" thingy
- [18:20:10] <TylerR>
Ah that thing. :)
- [18:20:57] <TylerR>
Is the Technorati icon making it so the full box isn't being displayed?
- [18:21:18] <kingryan>
I don't now what's going on
- [18:21:39] <TylerR>
I'll take a look in a little bit and see what I can find.
- [18:22:54] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.112.6.114.bbplus.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
- [18:23:00] <bewest>
warning: failure to complete a cup of coffee can lead to confusion when daignosing issues or peppered with questions
- [18:26:46] * bewest also wrote about the new mailing list http://bewest.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/microformats-new-mailing-list/
- [18:27:14] <bewest>
maybe I should link to the mf blog in the post
- [18:27:27] * bewest is too lazy to edit blog posts after they're published
- [18:27:32] <defunkt>
hey cats, have a Q
- [18:27:34] <TylerR>
I like how everyone at some time during the week mentions coffee at least once. That makes for potential users to an upcoming community site I'm working on.
- [18:27:45] <defunkt>
<abbr class="location" title=""><a href="/venue/22369">Castro Theater</a>, San Francisco Bay Area, CA</abbr> --- why's the title blank? this is from upcoming.org
- [18:27:45] <kingryan>
defunkt: shoot
- [18:27:47] * TylerR grins.
- [18:28:01] <kingryan>
on abbr's the @title is used
- [18:28:05] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
- [18:28:05] <jibot>
Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
- [18:28:10] <defunkt>
so does that mean the location should be blank?
- [18:28:21] <kingryan>
from a parser's perspective, yes
- [18:28:24] <kingryan>
just change abbr to span
- [18:28:29] <kingryan>
or div or p or whatever
- [18:28:42] <defunkt>
damn
- [18:28:53] <bewest>
what happens if you have a @class~="value"
- [18:28:56] <bewest>
on an abbr
- [18:29:03] <kingryan>
use the @title
- [18:29:06] <bewest>
or in an element that descends from abbr
- [18:29:07] <bewest>
oh
- [18:29:11] <bewest>
abbr always wins, eh?
- [18:29:13] <defunkt>
any idea why they're doing it this way? seems... odd
- [18:29:30] <kingryan>
<span class="location">foo<abbr class="value" title="bar">baz</abbr></span>
- [18:29:36] <kingryan>
location = bar
- [18:29:46] <kingryan>
defunkt: yes, it is odd
- [18:29:58] <bewest>
defunkt: probably because it was the first thing that popped into the programmer's head and was easy to do very quickly
- [18:30:05] <defunkt>
okay
- [18:30:09] <bewest>
least energy state
- [18:30:32] <defunkt>
next question: (obviously i've been working on locations) can a location (in hCalendar) have both a geo and an adr?
- [18:30:50] <defunkt>
the spec seems kind of vague. i can quote the paragraph i dont understand if that helps
- [18:31:07] <kingryan>
a location can be an entire hcard
- [18:31:07] <bewest>
yes
- [18:31:11] <kingryan>
so yes
- [18:31:19] <kingryan>
see eventful.com's events
- [18:31:21] <defunkt>
but what if there's no hcard present? not possible?
- [18:31:25] <defunkt>
eventful.com, okay
- [18:31:38] <kingryan>
defunkt: right
- [18:31:41] <bewest>
it's legal to still have it, since any markup can be present
- [18:34:09] <defunkt>
okay, cool
- [18:34:10] <defunkt>
thanks guys
- [18:39:48] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("http://gmachina.com - gaming feeds in bulk")
- [18:43:26] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
- [18:52:10] <mfbot>
[[hcard-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=13386 * ChristopheDucamp * (+180) additions aux futures vCard -
- [18:54:35] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13387 * ChristopheDucamp * (+348) ADR -
- [18:59:18] <kingryan>
hey bewest
- [18:59:32] <kingryan>
I don't quite get what you're going at with the rel-tag contradiction
- [19:01:54] <bewest>
the hcard spec (and friends) indicate that the subject of the tagged content is the hcard
- [19:02:03] <kingryan>
right
- [19:02:42] <bewest>
rel-tag parsers have no way of knowing that... the advice so far is to let the subject of tagged content be the page
- [19:02:58] <kingryan>
sure
- [19:03:05] <bewest>
this creates a mismatch in the functional model involved in processing and the mental model of the author
- [19:03:20] <bewest>
there's no way for an author to know how rel-tag will be interpreted
- [19:03:28] <kingryan>
ok, I understand that, but I think it's a theoretical problem
- [19:04:18] <kingryan>
if you want to build a generic rel-tag parser, then you're going to have to deal with these ambiguities
- [19:04:20] <bewest>
I don't understand how... I can't make heads or tails of it
- [19:04:31] <bewest>
it's not about building parsers
- [19:04:34] <bewest>
I'm talking about pubilshing behaviour
- [19:04:42] <bewest>
publishing, too
- [19:05:03] <bewest>
we've created a mechanism for authors to explicitly publish a piece of information
- [19:05:20] <bewest>
except the spec undermines the explicit intent
- [19:05:36] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13388 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1827) Microsoft Outlook -
- [19:05:43] <KevinMarks>
no, rel-tag's scope is left broad deliberately
- [19:05:51] <KevinMarks>
so other formats can refine it
- [19:05:53] <kingryan>
I don't think the intent is undermined
- [19:06:01] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13389 * ChristopheDucamp * (-348) ADR -
- [19:06:16] <kingryan>
an author can't expect every consuming application to have the same level of fidelity in consuming their content
- [19:06:27] <bewest>
that's fine
- [19:06:31] <KevinMarks>
xfolk/hreview make the tag apply to the linked product, but the page still has the tag in
- [19:06:33] <kingryan>
so, we've established a baseline, but then build more specific levels on top of it
- [19:06:34] <bewest>
but that's not what the spec supports
- [19:06:42] <KevinMarks>
which spec?
- [19:06:44] <bewest>
the spec doesn't explain this at all
- [19:06:48] <bewest>
rel-tag and friends
- [19:06:50] <bewest>
for example
- [19:07:26] <bewest>
at the minimum, I think we need to add to the hcard spec some verbiage that explains that any rel-tag usage may be interpreted such that the page itself, and not the hcard, may be treated as the subject of the tags
- [19:07:28] <kingryan>
ok, then how can we explain it better in the spec?
- [19:07:49] <kingryan>
why not just state this once, in rel-tag
- [19:07:50] <kingryan>
?
- [19:07:52] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13390 * ChristopheDucamp * (+34) N -
- [19:08:16] <bewest>
because then it is unclear
- [19:08:18] <bewest>
and confusing
- [19:08:25] <bewest>
this issue is coming up over and over
- [19:09:02] <bewest>
the reason it's coming up over and over isn't because the people raising it are uneducated
- [19:09:09] <bewest>
and it's not just newcomers
- [19:09:24] <kingryan>
but it seems to always be consumers, not publishers
- [19:09:35] <KevinMarks>
we're nto accusing people of being uneducated
- [19:09:36] <bewest>
right, which is why I'm now framing it around publishers
- [19:09:57] <KevinMarks>
we need to find a way to express this better?
- [19:10:11] <bewest>
KevinMarks: yeah, I know... however when an issue is consistently brushed aside, certain messages are sent, whether or not they were intended
- [19:10:18] <bewest>
yes
- [19:10:24] <kingryan>
but if publishers are having no problem, and consumers are having only theoretical problems, I don't see any real problem
- [19:10:39] <KevinMarks>
I'm not trying to brush ti aside
- [19:10:56] <kingryan>
I only brush it aside because its a FAQ
- [19:10:58] <bewest>
all I'm saying is that from a publishing perspective, I can't tell what the subject of rel-tag is going to be
- [19:11:04] <KevinMarks>
Scope
- [19:11:04] <KevinMarks>
rel="tag" is specifically designed for "tagging" content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts).
- [19:11:04] <KevinMarks>
rel="tag" is NOT designed for "tagging" arbitrary URLs or external content. There is demand for a general decentralized syntax for tagging URLs external to the current page, but this is not meant for that. See xFolk and hReview for ways to tag arbitrary URLs.
- [19:11:04] <KevinMarks>
If you need to define tags as part of a more specialised format, rel="tag" is the recommended way to do so, and xFolk, hReview, hCard and hCalendar all do this.
- [19:11:11] <KevinMarks>
how can we say this better
- [19:11:13] <bewest>
because one spec indicates that the subject will only be the hcard
- [19:11:23] <bewest>
and another spec says that sometimes it's some content, and sometimes it's the page
- [19:11:59] <KevinMarks>
that 2nd sentence needs fixing, certainly
- [19:12:18] <kingryan>
perhaps rel-tag should state that while rel-tag is generic, it can be redefined to be more specific by other formats
- [19:12:26] <bewest>
then you've made it modal
- [19:12:33] <bewest>
reducing it's uability for authors
- [19:12:48] <bewest>
modality is to be avoided when possible
- [19:12:55] <bewest>
there's plenty of usability studies for that
- [19:13:49] <kingryan>
what do you mean by modal?
- [19:13:52] <KevinMarks>
it's not modal
- [19:13:56] <KevinMarks>
it's AND not OR
- [19:13:57] * kingryan hasn't finished his morning coffee yet
- [19:13:58] <bewest>
how do you know that publishers aren't having a problem? modality is primarily an issue when the functional model is compared to a mental model of a user
- [19:15:23] <kingryan>
are you suggesting that publishers aren't complaining because they don't know that they don't understand?
- [19:15:38] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13391 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1052) Apple Address Book -
- [19:16:19] <KevinMarks>
the point is that a page containing a blogpost containing hReview that has a tag in, is a tagged page and post as well as the review
- [19:16:29] <KevinMarks>
tags are loose and overlapping like that
- [19:16:59] <bewest>
I'm saying the issue arises when you try to create a parser, but that the issue is still centered around publishers... when you try to implement a functional model for this it becomes extremely difficult to conform to the mental model laid out by the spec
- [19:16:59] <KevinMarks>
it is down to the tag interpreter to decide how to constrain it
- [19:17:51] <KevinMarks>
the technorati or icerocket post tag indexer looks at the posts
- [19:17:55] <bewest>
that's a problem, KevinMarks
- [19:18:06] <KevinMarks>
the microformat indexer looks at the review
- [19:18:13] <KevinMarks>
no, it's choice by the indexer
- [19:18:14] <bewest>
because this technique is a mechanism for an author to explicitly apply information to a subject
- [19:18:49] <bewest>
when a parser does something other than what the author intended, that's a problem
- [19:18:52] <KevinMarks>
Google's indexer will ignore the mf's but still see the words in the link text
- [19:19:25] <bewest>
I'm not sure that's a good comparison
- [19:20:18] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abx104.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- [19:20:58] <bewest>
there is a big assumption here: subjects of microformats are also the subjects of the page, or are at least highly correlated
- [19:21:11] <KevinMarks>
they are all trying to extract meaning; those that work harder at understanding the microformats intent do a better job
- [19:21:28] <bewest>
KevinMarks: yes... and rel-tag provides an explicit mechanism to do so
- [19:22:08] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13392 * ChristopheDucamp * (+417) Commentaires Généraux -
- [19:22:30] <bewest>
so authors have a mechanism to specify something, but our powerless to predict the application
- [19:22:44] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13393 * ChristopheDucamp * (+18) Contributeurs -
- [19:23:54] <KevinMarks>
and hReview refines it further
- [19:24:52] <bewest>
when I publish categories applied to my friend via hcard + rel-tag, I've provided an explicit association. other human consumers are going to understand this association. parsers are not.
- [19:25:20] <bewest>
one way to dampen the impact of this expectation is to explicitly state that if you publish rel-tag it may be applied to the page rather than some content on the page
- [19:25:30] <bewest>
rel-tag spec goes most of the way there, but the other specs need to state it too
- [19:25:57] <bewest>
because if you read hReview or hcard, that's not the understanding one would come away with
- [19:26:21] <bewest>
which is why this issue keeps coming up
- [19:26:57] <bewest>
also, it should be recommended that any user interface assisting authors in producing these constructs should also make it clear that rel-tag useage could be applied to the page as a whole
- [19:27:01] <bewest>
it's only fair to authors...
- [19:28:36] <bengee>
it's not an issue, really, bewest. every format that uses rel-tag links to the rel-tag wiki page where it's stated that rel-tag applies to the page
- [19:28:40] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-245-070.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:29:01] <bewest>
bengee: then why do poeple continue to misunderstand it?
- [19:29:07] <bengee>
and parser/aggregator implementors are very likely to check all the pages
- [19:29:30] <bewest>
bengee: agreed... so why do people continue to be confused?
- [19:29:35] <bewest>
including me
- [19:30:27] <bewest>
please don't say it's not an issue... the message that this imparts on people who have done their homework is very negative and damaging
- [19:32:09] <kingryan>
bewest: I agree that there's an issue, I'm just not sure what it is
- [19:32:33] <bewest>
I agree we should focus on being user-centric
- [19:32:55] <bengee>
I tried to poke a hole in that scoping thing myself, but the model is actually sound. but I'm an RDFer, so my context (thinking in triples) didn't really match with MFs at first
- [19:33:26] <bewest>
what is the currently the most popular form of publishgin rel-tag?
- [19:33:31] <bewest>
I would guess blogs
- [19:33:55] <kingryan>
yes "Technorati Tags" as they're often called
- [19:34:06] <bewest>
how do authors provide this markup?
- [19:34:13] <bewest>
does a user interface aide them, typically?
- [19:34:20] <KevinMarks>
well, LJ and blogspot now
- [19:34:33] <KevinMarks>
yes, they have a type-in tags box
- [19:34:34] <kingryan>
sometimes, alot write them by hand, too
- [19:34:36] <monkinetic>
and UTW for wp
- [19:34:38] <bewest>
in this case, the assumption holds up quite well
- [19:34:53] <KevinMarks>
Wp does it via categories natively now
- [19:34:54] <bewest>
the subject of microformatted content /is/ basically also the subject of the page
- [19:35:27] <bewest>
what is the intended use case for hcard? are there any hcards published in the content of blog posts?
- [19:35:42] <KevinMarks>
for post authors or commenters
- [19:35:52] <KevinMarks>
or blog authors
- [19:36:20] <bewest>
is it likely that categories applied to an hcard would also be published with the aid of some UI?
- [19:36:51] <bewest>
according to the hcard spec, what will the user's mental model for the subject of those hcard categories be?
- [19:37:44] <bewest>
what will a reader's mental model of those categories be?
- [19:38:42] <bewest>
to me it's clear: the subject of the categories specified in an hcard is different than the subject of the tags specified for the blog post
- [19:38:58] <bewest>
why? because it's explicitly defined
- [19:39:15] <bewest>
and as an author, I took the time and effort to specify them separately
- [19:39:22] <bewest>
and my readers will interpret it the same way
- [19:39:33] <KevinMarks>
not necessarily
- [19:40:01] <KevinMarks>
do you have ane xample of a tagged hcard in a blogpost we can use for context?
- [19:41:16] <bewest>
no... I'm willing to concede that it may not be a problem if the historical record shows that people don't publish in this manner
- [19:41:33] <bewest>
but at the minimum, it /is/ confusing for people reading these specs
- [19:42:04] * RobertBachmann (n=rb@M2513P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
- [19:42:04] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at> from Austria (TZ: 0100)
- [19:42:21] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) Quit ("Leaving")
- [19:43:48] <KevinMarks>
your example of labelling friends hCrads is more like XFN's core role
- [19:44:08] <KevinMarks>
but the assumption there si that their identifier is a URL (Which woudl presumably ahve their hcard in)
- [19:46:40] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) Quit ()
- [19:47:28] * joernba (n=joern@host40-82-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
- [19:48:06] <bewest>
put another way: why would an author specifying categories for an hcard expect those categories to apply to the page, when they already explicitly provided tags for the page elsewhere?
- [19:48:40] <bewest>
the hcard spec does not indicate that this might happen
- [19:49:43] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
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- [19:52:04] <jibot>
JamieKnight is jamie knight, a young web developer based in the UK. keeping his blog at http://jkg3.com
- [19:52:13] <JamieKnight>
hiya,
- [19:56:16] * joernba (n=joern@host40-82-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
- [19:57:05] <TylerR>
Hi.
- [19:57:11] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl081-245-070.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:57:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [19:57:31] <JamieKnight>
hiya KevinMarks
- [19:57:41] <JamieKnight>
hiya TylerR how be you?
- [19:58:05] <TylerR>
Fairly well, busy at work but looking forward to the evening.
- [19:58:19] <JamieKnight>
good, good,
- [19:58:27] <JamieKnight>
did they come up with a great name for you?
- [19:59:23] <KevinMarks>
hello
- [19:59:35] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [19:59:57] <JamieKnight>
how be you KevinMarks ?
- [20:00:28] <KevinMarks>
good
- [20:02:22] <JamieKnight>
anything intresting going on for you?
- [20:03:19] <TylerR>
JamieKnight: Unfortunately they directed me to marketing, which I want to avoid like the plague. haha
- [20:03:30] <JamieKnight>
hehe,
- [20:03:47] <JamieKnight>
i did my work experience ina marketing department at a collage, i hated it,
- [20:03:56] <TylerR>
I'm still open for suggestions.
- [20:04:05] <TylerR>
1) Has to be .com available.
- [20:04:12] <TylerR>
2) 1-3 syllables preferable.
- [20:04:14] <JamieKnight>
whats the theme?
- [20:04:28] <TylerR>
Coffee shop/community.
- [20:04:57] <JamieKnight>
cupstop.com
- [20:05:35] <TylerR>
Let's bring this to PM
- [20:05:40] <JamieKnight>
okay,
- [20:05:42] <TylerR>
MF isn't the place for domain discussion. :)
- [20:05:52] <JamieKnight>
true,
- [20:05:54] * lucasvo_ (n=lucasvo@wservices.ch) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [20:07:03] * tantek (n=tantek@206.47.9.3) has joined #microformats
- [20:07:03] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [20:07:03] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [20:07:14] <JamieKnight>
hiya tantek
- [20:07:17] <bewest>
TylerR: freshgrinds.com
- [20:07:37] <JamieKnight>
hiya bewest
- [20:07:53] <TylerR>
bewest: You do realize that may just be the most solid name yet.
- [20:07:54] <TylerR>
:D
- [20:08:10] * tantek attempts to catchup on the list. again.
- [20:09:17] <TylerR>
Hey tantek, how is WDN going?
- [20:09:20] <TylerR>
Did your talk go well?
- [20:10:01] <tantek>
indeed - WDN is going well. lots of folks at the microformats talks.
- [20:10:33] <TylerR>
Lovely! I wish I was able to go. A late minute no-go from management since other devs are going to Mix07 in April. :\
- [20:10:40] <TylerR>
Oh well, I definitely plan on attending next year.
- [20:10:42] * bear is now known as bear_afk
- [20:11:03] <JamieKnight>
to far for me,
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- [20:13:49] * tantek (n=tantek@206.47.9.3) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
- [20:14:57] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
- [20:14:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [20:23:51] <tantek>
real quick - who here has joined the new microformats-new mailing list?
- [20:24:04] <JamieKnight>
i will be,
- [20:24:05] <TylerR>
I'll be joining this afternoon.
- [20:24:34] <JamieKnight>
nice one alun: http://flickr.com/photos/alunr/377601128/?#comment72157594525073610
- [20:24:57] <kingryan>
tantek: we have about 25 members now
- [20:25:59] * tantek is still catching up on 100+ new emails on the collective microformats mailing lists, but we need to encourage *all* new microformats development to be discussed on microformats-new, NOT microformats-discuss, including microformats that were *already* in development, like citation, media-info etc.
- [20:26:10] <kingryan>
alright
- [20:26:37] <JamieKnight>
hmmm,
- [20:26:57] <tantek>
the whole point of creating the list was to move all the new microformats discussion/thrashing to different list so it would stop crowding out all the "how to" and other general informative discussions of currently well established microformats.
- [20:27:10] <tantek>
thus it doesn't make any sense to continue thrashing citation etc. on the -discuss list.
- [20:27:17] <tantek>
not sure how that was not obvious to folks
- [20:30:25] <bewest>
I've joined
- [20:30:30] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:30:30] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [20:41:08] <KevinMarks>
me
- [20:41:59] * RobertBachmann (n=rb@M2513P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving.")
- [20:44:41] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
- [20:53:05] <JamieKnight>
joined,
- [20:54:04] <monkinetic>
#xfn
- [20:55:35] <JamieKnight>
anoyone have any advice oin writing to the dev list about my gmail implimentation
- [20:59:31] * lhalff (n=lhalff@207.34.158.233) has left #microformats
- [21:16:19] * bear_afk is now known as bear
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- [21:21:54] <monkinetic>
can XFN be scoped to an hcard?
- [21:22:11] <monkinetic>
if the links are contained in said hcard?
- [21:22:32] <monkinetic>
how should parsers treat two hcards on a page each containing XFN links
- [21:24:26] <briansuda>
monkinetic? i'm not sure what you mean, XFN is for the page. It is the relationship between the page author and the linked person
- [21:25:05] <monkinetic>
ok, so there's no concept of "joe's XFN links in his hcard" and "seth's XFN links in his hcard" on one page
- [21:25:35] <bewest>
no
- [21:25:37] <bewest>
no scoping
- [21:25:44] <monkinetic>
i did not think so, just checking
- [21:41:40] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.113.82.155.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:45:59] * JamieKnight_ (n=chatzill@host86-140-70-111.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [21:47:22] <JamieKnight_>
ahh, nuts, what do you do if you send a messag eot the wrong mailing list?
- [21:47:37] <JamieKnight_>
*to yhe wrong list rather
- [21:50:08] <briansuda>
resend it to the correct one
- [21:50:43] <sillygwailo>
and follow up on the wrong one by saying "oops, sorry, wrong list"
- [21:50:59] <JamieKnight_>
thanks,
- [21:51:24] * OpenStandards (n=vir@ACBD0BC0.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
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- [21:53:54] <sreynen>
aw man, i was all excited to see the first message to the -new list...
- [21:54:03] <JamieKnight_>
sorry,
- [21:54:34] * JamieKnight_ relises it is now going to go down that the first message to the -new list was a mistake
- [21:54:47] * JamieKnight_ is now known as JamieKnight
- [21:55:05] * edsu (n=esummers@208.68.173.106) Quit ("leaving")
- [21:55:11] <sreynen>
i'm sure it won't be the last
- [21:55:18] <sreynen>
don't worry about it
- [21:55:42] <JamieKnight>
well, at least we know the list works,
- [21:55:45] <JamieKnight>
:D
- [21:56:17] <kingryan>
sreynen: doesn't my test message count? :D
- [21:56:34] <sreynen>
oh, that was before i was on the list
- [21:56:53] <JamieKnight>
hiya ryan,
- [21:57:06] <sreynen>
nothing counts before i'm on the list
- [21:57:35] <kingryan>
if a message goes to a list, but no one's subscribed, does it make a sound?
- [21:57:47] <JamieKnight>
hehe,
- [21:57:52] <briansuda>
yes, the sound of one hand clapping
- [21:58:05] * JamieKnight is sure we need a cat and a box for this one, and a radioactive isotope...
- [21:58:08] <sreynen>
who knew lists were so deep
- [21:58:29] * JamieKnight forgots the posiion, always the posision
- [22:00:00] * JamieKnight is going to go to bed soon, thinks he might have eaten bad cereal earlier,
- [22:01:06] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
- [22:01:21] <JamieKnight>
g'night all, sleep good when you get there,
- [22:01:42] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host86-140-70-111.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("badly needs sleep to cure upset stomach")
- [22:06:18] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
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- [22:25:21] * danja (n=danja@host245-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
- [22:26:12] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.113.82.155.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
- [22:40:34] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
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- [22:42:29] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
- [22:42:40] <bewest>
kingryan: does mailman have some facility to send a message of our choosing along with the confirmation message?
- [22:42:52] * danja (n=danja@80.104.220.245) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [22:43:02] <kingryan>
yes
- [22:43:16] <bewest>
kingryan: perhaps we should draft a message to the effect of "welcome, here are some ground rules. here's the topic for this list, and other lists nearby..."
- [22:43:31] <kingryan>
we can add that to the welcome message
- [22:43:35] <bewest>
yes
- [22:46:00] <kingryan>
write something up and I'll add it
- [22:49:38] <bewest>
hmmm
- [22:49:46] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-197-25-180.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:49:46] <jibot>
SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
- [22:49:52] <bewest>
I'll justput it on the to-do list for now
- [22:49:55] <bewest>
lazyweb that sucker
- [22:50:41] <mkaply>
briansuda: ping
- [22:51:07] <briansuda>
yo
- [22:51:29] <mkaply>
I noticed that when you grab the note(s) from an hCard, you just grab the textContent and strip out the HTML and stuff...
- [22:51:48] <mkaply>
Is that mainly as it relates to passing it to a vCard?
- [22:52:13] <mkaply>
In otherwords, should I strip that stuff when I first get it out of the DOM node? Or should I hold onto it with formatting and clean it up based on where I am sending the data.
- [22:52:29] <briansuda>
it is up to you.
- [22:52:34] <mkaply>
I know there's a pretty serious spec that tantek wrote about text parsing HTML
- [22:52:47] <briansuda>
i thought i was trying to do some fancy stuff with the TEXT?
- [22:52:52] <briansuda>
maybe that was with hCal?
- [22:53:17] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=13394 * BenWest * (+495) Lazyweb - add some todo items regarding the creation of the new list.
- [22:53:30] <mkaply>
In looking at some sites that try to do interesting stuff with the summary (like eventful for instance) it looks better if they hadn't tried to convert the HTML to text :)
- [22:53:56] * bewest would really prefer a proper issue tracker
- [22:54:11] * bewest always takes DanC's recommendations seriously
- [22:54:21] <bewest>
I started playing around with a roundup installation
- [22:54:35] <bewest>
it's a bit rough on the eyes till you soften and remove many of the harsh lines
- [22:54:52] <mkaply>
bewest: I searched and searched for a simple issue tracker. Couldn't find an open source one. They are all written by people who think WAY too complicated.
- [22:55:00] <bewest>
mkaply: try roundup
- [22:55:04] <bewest>
or mantis
- [22:55:20] <bewest>
I'd like to see a RESTful service ala evdb for issue tracking
- [22:55:34] <mkaply>
mantis was the one I was going to try. Roundup required too much tweaking
- [22:55:39] * kingryan wishes there were a simple tracker that supported openid
- [22:55:50] <mkaply>
I basically wanted simple send email somewhere for an issue. Get lists of issues, close issues.
- [22:55:53] <mkaply>
maybe some priority
- [22:55:59] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [22:56:39] * bewest considers CMSs harmful because it encourages a tight couping between business/application logic and user interface
- [22:57:29] <bewest>
just create a great web service... let others figure out how users need to interact with it
- [22:57:38] <hober>
I've been pretty pleased with Google Code's project hosting's issue tracker
- [22:57:45] <bewest>
oh yeah?
- [22:57:46] <mkaply>
depends on the CMS. I love CMS Made Simple because it doesn't "require" a specific UI - it just give good separation of the data and the layout
- [22:58:13] <bewest>
I noticed they carried over the labels idea from gmail
- [22:58:42] <bewest>
mkaply: I usually find that even when they do that, they provide programmatic interfaces which inevitably limit what you can do with the user interface
- [22:58:46] <bewest>
user interface is more than just layout
- [22:59:43] <mkaply>
bewest: true. It's extensible via PHP so it's able to do a lot of stuff. My main requirement was "anyone can update the page" and "easy to migrate an existing site"
- [22:59:52] <mkaply>
Most CMSs fall down BIG time on number two
- [22:59:53] <bewest>
for example, even very good CMSs tend to assume that the only consumers of the data are the interfaces to create the website presentation
- [23:00:28] <bewest>
some of them provide RSS feeds, which is only slightly better
- [23:00:58] <mkaply>
I swear I'm not plugging CMs made simpel too hard :) - this http://www.calvaryaustin.org/sitemap.xml
- [23:01:12] <mkaply>
was actually generated by CMS made simple. it has APIs to access all the site data to generate different content.
- [23:01:16] <mkaply>
Anyway. I have to run. Later all
- [23:01:29] <bewest>
seeya
- [23:01:48] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-1935ab41e6426447) Quit ("Leaving")
- [23:01:54] <bewest>
yeah, but it's still assumed you are serving the data for consumption on the website...
- [23:03:53] * nostrich is now known as nstrich
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- [23:46:25] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [23:46:25] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [23:57:03] <mfbot>
[[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=13395 * LibraryGuy * (+180) References -
- [23:57:08] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
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