IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:08:43] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
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- [00:12:22] <jibot>
chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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- [00:25:26] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [00:31:58] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [01:12:17] <JamieKnight>
hiya,
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- [03:16:06] <JamieKnight>
hiya,
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- [07:57:21] <jibot>
veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com>
- [08:06:57] * neuraxon77 (n=craig@cust1608.vic01.dataco.com.au) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
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- [08:25:14] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [09:02:56] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
- [09:02:56] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [09:06:39] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
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- [09:09:37] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
- [09:17:47] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
- [09:17:47] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [09:19:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [09:19:58] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [09:34:41] * pecus (n=pecus@195.70.5.235) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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- [09:38:28] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has joined #microformats
- [09:38:28] <jibot>
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
- [09:42:06] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.10) has left #microformats
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- [10:26:27] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
- [10:26:27] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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- [10:38:44] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [12:26:57] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [12:41:51] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
- [12:49:20] <mfbot>
[[firefox-extensions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=firefox-extensions&diff=0&oldid=13396 * T1mmyb * (+0) Web Developer - sp (microformat)
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- [13:00:54] <jibot>
JamieKnight is jamie knight, a young web developer based in the UK. keeping his blog at http://jkg3.com
- [13:01:05] <JamieKnight>
hiya,
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- [13:26:10] <jibot>
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
- [13:26:33] <JamieKnight>
hiya,
- [13:27:03] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd132.rhi.hi.is) Quit ()
- [13:35:45] <mfbot>
[[User:HenrichPoehls]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:HenrichPoehls * HenrichPoehls * (+160)
- [13:40:51] <mfbot>
[[User:HenrichPoehls]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:HenrichPoehls&diff=0&oldid=13397 * HenrichPoehls * (+237) Introducing myself ...
- [13:43:15] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
- [13:43:15] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
- [13:44:43] * Charl (n=Charl@196.21.192.15) has joined #microformats
- [13:44:44] <jibot>
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
- [13:47:16] <mfbot>
[[User:JamieKnight]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:JamieKnight * JamieKnight * (+540) introduction to Jamie Knight
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- [13:55:46] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=13398 * HenrichPoehls * (+69) Exploratory Discussions -
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- [14:06:23] <jibot>
SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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- [14:40:27] <monkinetic>
anyone got a decent XOXO I can test against? I can't seem to find one in the wild with ol class="xoxo"
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- [14:43:17] <jibot>
Pierre_N is Alpha1
- [14:47:28] <JamieKnight>
sorry, i dont, is there on one the wiki?
- [14:47:47] <JamieKnight>
or, how about S5? there is an XOXO version of S5, that should have it,
- [14:48:57] <mfbot>
[[digitalsignature-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/digitalsignature-brainstorming * HenrichPoehls * (+5864) First Brainstorming
- [14:49:04] <monkinetic>
meh, i just copied some sample code from the wiki into a doc
- [14:49:09] <monkinetic>
thanks
- [14:49:22] <JamieKnight>
your welcome,
- [14:49:29] <JamieKnight>
can i ask what you are using it for?
- [14:49:41] <monkinetic>
testing mofo's xoxo support
- [14:49:57] <JamieKnight>
mofo's
- [14:49:58] <mfbot>
[[digitalsignature-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digitalsignature-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13399 * HenrichPoehls * (-5)
- [14:50:01] <JamieKnight>
what is mofo?
- [14:50:27] <monkinetic>
http://errtheblog.com/post/37
- [14:50:32] <monkinetic>
ruby uF parser
- [14:50:42] <JamieKnight>
thanks,
- [14:50:49] <JamieKnight>
kewl,
- [14:50:56] <monkinetic>
yeah
- [14:52:37] * HenrichP (n=Miranda@svs22.informatik.uni-hamburg.de) has joined #microformats
- [14:53:42] <JamieKnight>
sounds good,
- [14:53:47] <JamieKnight>
abit like hkit,
- [14:53:54] * markp (n=chatzill@adsl-221-33-138.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
- [14:54:42] <jibot>
markp is Mark Pilgrim
- [14:55:18] <mfbot>
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=13400 * HenrichPoehls * (+37)
- [14:55:44] <mfbot>
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=13401 * HenrichPoehls * (+5)
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- [14:56:55] <mfbot>
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=13402 * HenrichPoehls * (+0)
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- [14:57:19] <jibot>
Omnifrog is the proud originator of Fair Use Day
- [15:03:50] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
- [15:03:50] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
- [15:04:02] <mkaply>
OK, can I ask a real dumb question abou tags?
- [15:04:22] <mkaply>
Everyone keeps saying "flickr does rel tags the correct way and that's one of the reason's it's correct"
- [15:04:40] <mkaply>
Can someone please show me a flickr page that actually uses rel="tag"?
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- [15:14:56] <JamieKnight>
hiya mkaply
- [15:15:03] <mkaply>
hey
- [15:15:10] <JamieKnight>
i have not seen this page you are describing, i dont use flickr that much,
- [15:15:14] <JamieKnight>
sorry,
- [15:15:56] <mkaply>
JamieKnight: no biggie. the rel-tag discussion has been raging for years. IBM is on the verge of adding tagging to all of our major products and none of it will use rel-tag. Kind of sad
- [15:16:15] <JamieKnight>
yeah
- [15:16:23] <JamieKnight>
is sad,
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- [15:24:20] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [15:24:20] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
- [15:25:02] <drewinthehead>
greetings ... apologies for recent absence!
- [15:25:28] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
- [15:25:28] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [15:27:03] <JamieKnight>
drewinthehead: hiya
- [15:27:06] * drewinthehead is still without the internets outside of (very busy) work hours.
- [15:27:12] <drewinthehead>
hey JamieKnight
- [15:27:20] <JamieKnight>
I have been meaning to contact you,
- [15:27:30] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
- [15:27:39] <drewinthehead>
what about?
- [15:27:45] <JamieKnight>
I rewrote my hCard to gmail converter, using your hKit
- [15:27:56] * mkaply heads to work
- [15:27:57] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) Quit ("Leaving")
- [15:28:00] <JamieKnight>
i have a draft e-mail somewhere,
- [15:28:08] <JamieKnight>
have fun mk
- [15:28:34] <JamieKnight>
also, you RSS feed is broken
- [15:28:47] <JamieKnight>
nope, working again now,
- [15:29:36] <JamieKnight>
wanted to let you know and ask some questions,
- [15:33:06] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd132.rhi.hi.is) has joined #microformats
- [15:33:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [15:33:06] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
- [15:33:26] <JamieKnight>
hiya briansuda
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- [15:45:34] <JamieKnight>
stupid question but: are you allowed a UL inside a p element?
- [15:45:51] <monkinetic>
no
- [15:45:58] <JamieKnight>
hmmm,
- [15:45:58] <monkinetic>
p cannot contain other block-level elements
- [15:46:03] <JamieKnight>
okay, thanks,
- [15:46:09] <monkinetic>
sure
- [15:46:16] <JamieKnight>
then how would i markup a tag list
- [15:46:32] <JamieKnight>
tag <ul> bleh </ul>
- [15:46:42] <JamieKnight>
but, the tag work is not defined.
- [15:46:46] <JamieKnight>
word rather.
- [15:47:52] <monkinetic>
hm.
- [15:48:23] <monkinetic>
i *think* that you'd need to separate it out of the <p>
- [15:48:34] <monkinetic>
though i'm no xhtml guru
- [15:48:39] <JamieKnight>
me nother,
- [15:48:49] <JamieKnight>
just trying to be semantic.
- [15:49:20] <JamieKnight>
<p>tag</p<ul</ul> doesent seem much more semantic to me,
- [15:49:28] <JamieKnight>
its not a paragraph
- [15:49:36] <JamieKnight>
hmmmmm,
- [15:49:53] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
- [15:49:56] <monkinetic>
you can use div instead of p
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- [15:50:57] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [15:51:03] <JamieKnight>
hmmm,
- [15:51:08] <JamieKnight>
not sure of that is anymore semantic,
- [15:51:21] * JamieKnight wonders if there is an XHTML channel on freenode.
- [15:54:55] * danja (n=danja@host80-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
- [15:58:20] <mfbot>
[[genealogy-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-formats&diff=0&oldid=13403 * Bob Jonkman * (+2391) GEDCOM - Microformat re-use; date difficulties
- [16:05:03] * danja (n=danja@80.104.220.80) has joined #microformats
- [16:05:03] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
- [16:05:12] <JamieKnight>
wb danja
- [16:05:27] * danja (n=danja@80.104.220.80) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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- [16:35:18] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
- [16:35:51] <JamieKnight>
hiya mkaply
- [16:36:40] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
- [16:36:40] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [16:37:18] <mkaply>
hey
- [16:37:30] <JamieKnight>
how be you?
- [16:37:52] <mkaply>
ok.
- [16:38:41] <JamieKnight>
good, good,
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- [16:38:43] <JamieKnight>
busy?
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- [16:39:35] <jibot>
TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social.
- [16:39:56] <JamieKnight>
hiya TylerR
- [16:40:11] * TylerR wonders why jibot won't expunge properly.
- [16:40:19] <TylerR>
Hi.
- [16:40:24] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
- [16:40:24] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [16:41:03] <JamieKnight>
how be you?
- [16:41:38] * pecus (n=pecus@195.70.5.235) Quit ()
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- [16:45:29] <briansuda>
has anyone played with Window's Live Writer, i remember the demo was using an hCalendar plugin, has anyone see the output?
- [16:45:59] <JamieKnight>
nopers,
- [16:46:22] <JamieKnight>
sorry,
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- [16:52:08] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [16:52:09] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [16:52:47] <JamieKnight>
i am logging of soon,
- [16:52:51] <JamieKnight>
bye people,
- [16:52:57] <JamieKnight>
)licks)
- [16:53:02] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host86-140-70-111.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) has left #microformats
- [17:01:54] <mkaply>
briansuda: I've played with it
- [17:02:48] <briansuda>
have you seen the output, is DTEND exclusive as well?
- [17:04:50] <mkaply>
<abbr class="dtstart" title="2007-02-09">Friday, February 9, 2007</abbr><abbr class="dtend" title="2007-02-10">
- [17:04:55] <mkaply>
yes. dtend is exclusive
- [17:05:10] <briansuda>
excellent, i thought about that yesterday
- [17:05:44] <mkaply>
grabbing the latest beta to check that as well
- [17:06:31] <mkaply>
We could write plugins to livewriter to do other microformats :)
- [17:07:32] <mkaply>
that's a from scratch event. Checking upcoming now
- [17:07:33] <briansuda>
this is true, but i don't have a windows machine to test on
- [17:07:55] <briansuda>
that might be something to add to the advocacy page or the TODOs wiki page.
- [17:07:56] <mkaply>
duh. It searches eventful which doesn't seem to allow events without times
- [17:09:10] <mkaply>
they allow you to turn off the date in the event - doh!
- [17:10:43] <mkaply>
So has anyone used the logic on the rel-tag syntax that it basically is mandating how someone's server is configured? Or has that been shot down somehow as well?
- [17:11:13] <briansuda>
what do you mean?
- [17:12:54] <mkaply>
briansuda: forcing rest APIs for accessing the tag space for local tagspaces
- [17:13:38] <briansuda>
i think there is alot of confusion over rel-tag, there has been 2-3 different threads on the same topic
- [17:14:01] <briansuda>
rel-tag is about HOW and WHERE to extract the tag data, people are wanting to change the spec
- [17:14:28] <briansuda>
the reason seems to be because their server setup or host doesn't allow XY or Z
- [17:14:43] <briansuda>
that is not the specs problem. I don't see what the spec is at fault
- [17:15:14] <briansuda>
i'm not saying it should be static forever, but i don't think the spec should be changed because of broken implementations
- [17:15:38] <mkaply>
but the implementations are only broken because of the spec. That's a circular argument.
- [17:16:01] <briansuda>
some of the implementations do things like /tags/books/index.html
- [17:16:11] <briansuda>
that is just outright broken
- [17:16:12] <mkaply>
I know what my tag is in the URL https://activities.tap.ibm.com/activities/activities/service/html/activities/overview?tag=firefox&start=1
- [17:16:22] <briansuda>
overview
- [17:17:03] <mkaply>
well, per the spec. The problem is server software has to be rewritten to support the spec. And the spec doesn't allow for anything but REST APIs.
- [17:17:08] <mkaply>
You can't do query APIs
- [17:18:09] <mkaply>
I understand the logic. In that you might have a tagspace of car but the tag textContent is Auto.
- [17:18:23] <briansuda>
why do you WANT to do query APIs? and more over, rel-tag models current behavior, so are people DOING queries
- [17:19:10] <mkaply>
Again, circular argument. There were a few people that did it a certain way, rel-tag copied them, people started doing it as rel-tag did.
- [17:19:22] <mkaply>
There is already software out there that users query APIs.
- [17:19:31] <mkaply>
and all that software has to be rewritten to use REST
- [17:19:36] <mkaply>
or lots of mod_rewrite
- [17:20:06] <briansuda>
but in some ways that is not a bug it is a feature :)
- [17:20:19] <briansuda>
search engines sometimes strip the ?...
- [17:20:23] <briansuda>
so queries are ignored
- [17:20:53] <briansuda>
i don't think that was what the issues on the mailing-list were about.
- [17:20:58] <mkaply>
I just wish there was some way to specify the tag. Not parse the URL. Not look at the textContent. What is the tag
- [17:21:08] <briansuda>
i think they were more ... can rel-tag ignore file-extentions?
- [17:21:13] <briansuda>
can rel-tag be scoped?
- [17:21:21] <briansuda>
can i use the @title instead
- [17:21:43] <mkaply>
We've got all kinds of unique scenarios in our case. All ugly
- [17:21:57] <mkaply>
http://dogear.tap.ibm.com/html?tag=connections
- [17:22:00] <mkaply>
http://dogear.tap.ibm.com/html?tag=apar&user=chrisc%40us.ibm.com
- [17:22:03] <mkaply>
http://blogs.tap.ibm.com/weblogs/tag.do?tag=bcv3
- [17:22:06] <mkaply>
http://w4.ibm.com/bluepages/html/people?tags=enki
- [17:22:08] <monkinetic>
rel-tag is fussy. it's the only uF that i know of that tries to spec your url scheme
- [17:22:55] <monkinetic>
silly.
- [17:23:12] <mkaply>
was there really nothing in <A> that could have been used to denote the tagname?
- [17:23:25] <mkaply>
why did people say no to title
- [17:23:50] <briansuda>
i would prefer to use human-reable textNode first
- [17:23:58] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13404 * T1mmyb * (+69) New Examples - Added optics.org team page
- [17:24:11] <briansuda>
@title is hidden (except in tool tips, which is not part of the HTML spec)
- [17:24:29] <mkaply>
briansuda: Are there any cases in the wild where the textNode is really different than the intended tag - like the car/Auto case I mentioned above?
- [17:24:33] <briansuda>
@title is handled by user-agents how every they want
- [17:24:50] <briansuda>
not sure, i would image in internationalization issues it is different
- [17:25:08] <briansuda>
and or "brian+suda" is the tag and "brian suda" is the string?
- [17:25:20] <briansuda>
tag=home text=case
- [17:25:24] <mkaply>
Well, before sending to the server, you would put + in place of the space
- [17:25:45] <monkinetic>
mkaply: i think it was an early uF and 'rati was worried about people/spammers doing something like: <a href="site/tags/foo">bar</a>
- [17:25:46] <mkaply>
The biggest problem is I have a major conflict of interest here. I want the IBM stuff to work :) :)
- [17:26:09] <mkaply>
monkinetic: I read that but I still didn't understand why the heck that mattered. That happens all over the web anyway
- [17:26:32] <mkaply>
And that implies that some useragent is looking at the tag programmatically - are there any user agents looking at tags besides Operator?
- [17:26:32] <monkinetic>
oh, i know, i don't really agree, but i think that's what happened
- [17:26:46] <briansuda>
i wasn't part of the original rel-tag spec authorship, so i can only speak for what i know and what the spec says
- [17:27:17] <briansuda>
with something like: html?tag=apar&user=chrisc%40us.ibm.co
- [17:27:50] <briansuda>
you'd have to describe what portion of that is actually the TAG, and we standarize the query value or 'tag' then we are still mandating how the URL is manufatured
- [17:28:05] <briansuda>
if you start to use the textNode, then there is no notion of tagspaces any more
- [17:28:34] * danja (n=danja@80.104.220.80) has joined #microformats
- [17:28:34] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
- [17:28:44] <briansuda>
the whole point of REL is that is it the relationship between the HREF and the current page
- [17:28:49] <briansuda>
not the TEXT and the current page
- [17:29:18] <briansuda>
i think lots of things would have to change, so much so it won't be rel-tag, it could be class="category" which we already have
- [17:31:19] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
- [17:31:19] <jibot>
bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
- [17:31:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o bewest
- [17:31:47] <mkaply>
But then the question becomes what do you really do with the relationship. All we can get out of it is a link to the specified tagspace or we can use the tag to map it to other tagspaces
- [17:32:02] <mkaply>
The link to the specificed tagspace is active on the page.
- [17:32:23] <mkaply>
So what we really need is the core tag name to map it to other tagspaces. The relationship is kind of irrelevant at that point
- [17:33:03] <briansuda>
if that is what you want, then yes you are correct and then you are no longer talking about rel-tag
- [17:33:25] <briansuda>
you are talking about general semantics like Dublin Core SUBJECT or KEYWORDS
- [17:33:48] <briansuda>
and there is no reason (that i see) to force fit any of that into rel-tag
- [17:34:08] <briansuda>
with hCard and hCalendar we have categories
- [17:34:43] <bewest>
???
- [17:34:48] <bewest>
the tag value is the last path segment
- [17:34:53] <briansuda>
by using Rel-Tag you immediately leverage all the aggrigation sites like technorati and icerocket and others
- [17:35:00] <briansuda>
bewest you have to read through the archives
- [17:35:08] * bewest was just reading through the archive
- [17:35:32] <mkaply>
briansuda: but how exactly do you leverage them unless I put a link on my webpage?
- [17:36:22] <briansuda>
you are right, you need a link, i'm saying you could go away and invent your own tagging system that meets your exact needs, but you loose the community that already exists with rel-tag.
- [17:36:34] <briansuda>
i think we are agreeing, but missing each other somewhere inbetween
- [17:36:57] <mkaply>
Probably. :)
- [17:37:31] * tantek (n=tantek@207.236.117.226) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
- [17:37:31] <mkaply>
The sucky part about those IBM URLs is that aren't even "invalid" in such away that they would hit a failure case and I could use the textContent as a fallback
- [17:37:31] <briansuda>
anytime you start to build semantics off of the rel/rev attributes then you are looking at the href
- [17:38:16] <briansuda>
mkaply you are right, every URL is a valid tag, http://suda.co.uk is the tag for suda.co.uk
- [17:39:02] <briansuda>
but if you want to look anywhere but the URL then you can't use REL and then it isn't REL-tag anymore
- [17:39:15] <mkaply>
So you would say that the tag for http://microformatique.com/?cat=27 is microformatique.com?
- [17:39:36] <briansuda>
according to the current parsing algorthim i would say yes
- [17:39:44] <briansuda>
you strip ? and #
- [17:39:48] <mkaply>
<a href="http://microformatique.com/?cat=7" title="View all posts in microformats" rel="category tag">microformats</a>
- [17:40:16] <briansuda>
the other thing is that it is SUPPOST to point to a tagspace
- [17:40:37] <mkaply>
well it is a tagspace. IT's the microformats tagspace in wordpress as defined by their API
- [17:40:40] <briansuda>
if the base URL is a tagspace, then it is both technically and prosely?? correct
- [17:40:43] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1177644207.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #microformats
- [17:41:24] <briansuda>
XFN also works off of the HREF and not the textNode
- [17:41:35] <mkaply>
Although wordpress uses the term category in that case. So maybe the problem here is really what you said earlier. The distinction between category and tag
- [17:41:37] <briansuda>
because it uses the REL
- [17:41:50] <mkaply>
people are using tag when they really mean category
- [17:42:14] * briansuda notes that other people don't see the different, but he is not in that camp
- [17:42:42] <briansuda>
the downside is that class="category" has no category space or no aggregators
- [17:43:31] <briansuda>
so to do anything with that you need to your own spider to crawl your site, pick out the values from the textNode where there is a class="category" and build index pages for them
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- [17:43:32] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [17:44:12] <bewest>
the tagspace thing is fixed by creating a simple redirect
- [17:44:18] <mkaply>
So at this point, do you think Operator is doing the "right thing" with Tagspaces? That is find a given rel-tag on the page, determine the tag, and provide the ability to access other tag spaces?
- [17:44:19] <briansuda>
or have a fancy database driven page
- [17:44:31] <briansuda>
yes
- [17:44:36] <mkaply>
bewest: Maybe on your web server. But we're talking about large pieces of software here
- [17:44:37] <bewest>
you can have mytagspacerewriter.com/$site/tag -> $site.com/?cat=34
- [17:44:46] <briansuda>
that was the whole point, you can swap out the tagspace
- [17:44:54] <briansuda>
'loosely coupled services'
- [17:44:59] <bewest>
mkaply: no... this works for any server, even servers other than the one the tagspace is /actually/ hosted on
- [17:45:08] <bewest>
eg a tinyurl for tagspaces
- [17:45:14] <bewest>
it's just a redirect
- [17:45:41] <mkaply>
bewest: I've used mod_rewrite. There's no such thing as "just a redirect" - it can get very complex.
- [17:45:50] <bewest>
I'm talking about a different service
- [17:45:52] <mkaply>
But we're having that discussion with these temas
- [17:45:55] <bewest>
that redirects urls to your service
- [17:46:04] <mkaply>
I understand what you mean. Just create a tagspace URL that redirects.
- [17:46:19] <briansuda>
i think bewest is saying from Server A you link to Server B's tag space, but server B redirects you to any URL on server A...Z
- [17:46:28] <bewest>
yes
- [17:46:32] <bewest>
it's just a redirect away
- [17:46:41] <bewest>
if it's truly infeasible to implement where the content lives
- [17:46:44] <briansuda>
it is an interesting solution... tagspace proxies :)
- [17:46:50] <mkaply>
yeah. I'll mention that to the team. These URLs should be.http://dogear.tap.ibm.com/tags/dogear-nation
- [17:46:56] <mkaply>
not http://dogear.tap.ibm.com/html?tag=dogear-nation
- [17:47:13] <bewest>
be careful though; you don't want an open redirect proxy
- [17:47:15] <mkaply>
or http://dogear.tap.ibm.com/luis_benitez%40us.ibm.com/tag/learning
- [17:47:35] <briansuda>
and you want to becareful of how you serve them, 301, 302, 200?
- [17:47:40] <mkaply>
ignore that persons email I just put up. Please don't use it for spam :)
- [17:47:43] <bewest>
I think you always want FOUND
- [17:47:51] <bewest>
mkaply: it's logged :-(
- [17:47:53] <mkaply>
yes. And display a blank page
- [17:48:01] <mkaply>
no biggy. I left out the % :)
- [17:48:03] <mkaply>
@
- [17:48:20] * mkaply should have at least pasted a link from his own dogear
- [17:48:41] <bewest>
I daresay that'd make an interesting web2.0 site
- [17:48:48] * briansuda is open to discussion, but not too sympathetic to changing things at the spec level
- [17:48:50] <bewest>
create your own tagspaces
- [17:49:12] <bewest>
register for an account, create your tagspace, send the traffic wherever you want
- [17:49:13] <mkaply>
briansuda: Honestly I think the problem is that people think of rel-tag as a simple cateogry
- [17:49:21] <mkaply>
Even I still don't undestand the "relationship part"
- [17:49:26] <bewest>
all urls that get redirected are registered so it's not an open redirect
- [17:49:27] <mkaply>
With XFN, the relationship part makes sense to me
- [17:49:37] <mkaply>
bewest: There's your million. Go do it. Quick
- [17:49:43] <bewest>
and the convention is /$site/tag -> $site.tld/$whatever
- [17:49:56] <briansuda>
yes, poor rel has gotten a bad wrap with rel-nofollow too :(
- [17:49:57] <bewest>
mkaply: I have other ideas I'm working on... I'm just putting it out there as a solution
- [17:50:03] <bewest>
:-)
- [17:50:07] <mkaply>
I think tagspace.com is available :)
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- [17:50:15] <kingryan>
mkaply: have you seen http://www.danwebb.net/2007/2/9/sumo-a-generic-microformats-parser-for-javascript ?
- [17:50:21] <mkaply>
Actually, that would be a good domain to grab just for fun
- [17:50:41] <mkaply>
kingryan: ha.
- [17:50:57] <mkaply>
let's all do the same thing :)
- [17:51:15] <kingryan>
ah, he links to you
- [17:51:23] <kingryan>
http://www.kaply.com/weblog/2007/01/31/parsing-microformats/
- [17:51:51] <bewest>
interesting
- [17:51:51] <bewest>
http://svn.danwebb.net/external/microformat/hcard.js
- [17:52:01] <bewest>
he also mixes code with data
- [17:52:03] <bewest>
hmm
- [17:52:06] * kingryan would bet that it doesn't pass the test suite
- [17:52:39] <mkaply>
yep. Same ideas as me :)
- [17:53:06] <mkaply>
well, not just me. Andy Mitchell as well.
- [17:53:31] <mkaply>
I'm actually 100% with the test suite at this point (for hCard)
- [17:53:45] <mkaply>
The only thing I have to fix is some of my microformat->vCard stuff (data URLs in particular)
- [17:53:53] <briansuda>
right before we go and add more stuff to it :)
- [17:54:01] * anselxyz (n=chatzill@DNab423c5f.Stanford.EDU) has joined #microformats
- [17:54:31] <mkaply>
The main thing I'm trying to avoid is forcing vcard symantics into the data I get from the hCard. I'm letting the conversion to vcard worry about that so as much data is maintained frmo the original microformat
- [17:54:40] <mkaply>
Sumo is a sweet name though
- [17:55:05] * tantek_ (n=tantek@207.236.117.226) has joined #microformats
- [17:55:35] <briansuda>
Operator wins! http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=sumo&word2=operator
- [17:56:46] * TylerR (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) Quit ("Leaving")
- [17:57:30] <mkaply>
woohoo!
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- [17:57:52] <mkaply>
briansuda: So do some sort of bound harcopies of your book exist? or is it really online only
- [17:58:14] <briansuda>
online only, but you could print it and bind it... very FYI
- [17:58:26] <briansuda>
there is another (bigger) book due out in the next few months
- [17:58:44] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
- [17:58:51] * briansuda searches for a link and annoucement
- [17:59:00] * Irregex (n=irregex@unaffiliated/irregex) Quit (Client Quit)
- [17:59:12] <briansuda>
http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590598148
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- [18:00:54] <mkaply>
cool.
- [18:00:55] <mfbot>
[[books]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=13405 * Brian * (+158) Added mention of new Microformats book due out soon
- [18:01:26] <mfbot>
[[books]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=13406 * Brian * (+0)
- [18:01:31] * mkaply goes to lunch
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- [18:13:52] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [18:13:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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- [18:14:06] <jibot>
Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
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- [18:48:07] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [19:03:30] <mkaply>
OK, I don't trust that Sumo guy. at all.
- [19:03:30] <mkaply>
<LI class="vcard"><A class="fn org url" href="http://www.argenthotel.com/">The Argent Hotel</A> - <SPAN title="Latitude/longitude: 37.786759,-122.402887" class="adr">50 Third Street</SPAN> / <SPAN class="tel">415.974.6400</SPAN></LI>
- [19:03:36] * mkaply pukes
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- [19:06:15] * mkaply ponders how many things are wrong with that microformat
- [19:07:02] * BobJonkma1 (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
- [19:07:10] <kingryan>
there's only one thing really *wrong* with it
- [19:07:20] <kingryan>
others that are a bit weird, though
- [19:08:19] <mkaply>
I can't figure out why the lat/longitude is coded in a hidden way that is not available to the microformat
- [19:08:21] <mkaply>
Taht's weird
- [19:09:13] <mkaply>
So that ends up being an empty adr, right? Not an adr that is a string
- [19:09:19] <mkaply>
adr requires subproperties
- [19:12:20] <bewest>
the lat/long isn't part of the microformat
- [19:12:25] <bewest>
so there's nothing wrong with it
- [19:13:09] <tantek_>
it's missing a street-address class name
- [19:13:11] <mkaply>
I think he intended it to be though. Why else would he have hidden it in a title?
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- [19:31:09] <Irregex>
hi there
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- [19:35:59] <kingryan>
hi Irregex
- [19:37:24] <Irregex>
hey there, just was reading up on microformats in haine's book, thought i'd pop in and see what was up
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- [19:41:21] <Irregex>
are there any immediate benefits to using microformats when most browsers right now simply shrug them off when the plug-ins aren't installed?
- [19:42:23] <mkaply>
plan for the future :)
- [19:43:43] <bewest>
Irregex: yes.
- [19:43:54] <bewest>
Irregex: not all the benefits of microformats stem from user interaction
- [19:44:17] <Irregex>
i was taking a look at the live examples of microformats in use. i'm really (pleasantly) surprised to see lots of people adopting this stuff when support isn't fully realized by major software vendors.
- [19:44:22] <bewest>
in fact, arguably the minority of benefits reside in the area where users interact with microformats via browser plugins
- [19:44:36] <bewest>
Irregex: what do you mean by support and major software vendors
- [19:44:53] <bewest>
Irregex: most of the benefits aren't in user interaction with browser plugins
- [19:45:01] * Irregex nods
- [19:45:04] <bewest>
browsers aren't the only software agents on the web
- [19:46:04] <Irregex>
i mean that it's neat to know that there are early adopters even before the major players haven't fully brought them into use, like microsoft, apple, amazon, etc.
- [19:46:49] <kingryan>
Irregex: part of the point of microformats is that it doesn't matter of ms, appl or amaz ever support them
- [19:47:12] * bewest isn't sure major players really drive the market anyway
- [19:47:25] <Irregex>
ah so it's more about users empowering users then
- [19:47:39] <Irregex>
or rather, users empowering agents
- [19:47:41] * Irregex smiles
- [19:49:27] <Irregex>
i think i haven't gotten enough exposure to life outside the corporate atmosphere. i went straight out of college to an ms vendor and have been here since. i don't see much beyond the ms propoganda if you will, and i am very interested in breaking out if you will
- [19:51:26] <Irregex>
alright well, i'm to be getting back to work, thanks for the brief chat
- [19:51:30] <bewest>
np
- [19:51:34] <bewest>
we're here all week
- [19:51:36] <bewest>
all day
- [19:51:39] <bewest>
7 days a week
- [19:51:42] * Irregex smiles
- [19:51:47] <Irregex>
same bat time, same bat channel?
- [19:51:52] <bewest>
:-)
- [19:52:08] <Irregex>
take care
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- [20:39:47] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [21:01:28] <jibot>
JamieKnight is jamie knight, a young web developer based in the UK. keeping his blog at http://jkg3.com
- [21:01:54] <JamieKnight>
hiya
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- [21:47:52] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [22:11:46] <mfbot>
[[operating-hours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours&diff=0&oldid=13407 * Drago516 * (-564) rework page
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- [22:12:17] <mfbot>
[[operating-hours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours&diff=0&oldid=13408 * Drago516 * (-5)
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- [22:17:18] <Irregex>
hello again, found myself with a bit of a break in work this afternoon
- [22:17:24] <Irregex>
so i thought i'd stop on in again
- [22:18:43] <mfbot>
[[digital-signatures]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/digital-signatures * Drago516 * (+6672) created, most content from proposal moved to this page, edited
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- [22:28:13] <mfbot>
[[digitalsignature-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digitalsignature-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13409 * Drago516 * (-4826) moved content to its own page, this page is for brainstorming/ examples
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- [22:31:09] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=13410 * Drago516 * (+101) added digital-signatures
- [22:35:08] <bewest>
kingryan: you seen the pipes yahoo thing?
- [22:37:39] <mfbot>
[[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13411 * Drago516 * (+231) added digital-signatures and various updates
- [22:40:23] <kingryan>
bewest: the servers were down when I wanted to look at it
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- [22:40:33] <bewest>
it's up today
- [22:40:40] <bewest>
basically extreme HTTP piping
- [22:40:59] <bewest>
will be interesting if they provide gateways for microformat translation
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trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [23:03:32] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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