IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:51:12] <jibot>
chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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- [00:55:56] <jibot>
SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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- [01:52:28] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [02:36:54] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [02:45:02] <jibot>
bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
- [02:45:06] <bewest>
ping tantek
- [02:45:12] <tantek>
pong
- [02:45:21] <bewest>
tantek: have you seen the the digital-signing stuff?
- [02:45:27] <bewest>
they put up a format without following the process
- [02:45:33] <bewest>
not sure what the apropriate correction is
- [02:45:36] * tantek is still behind on the mailing list
- [02:45:45] <tantek>
are they on the list?
- [02:45:47] <tantek>
or the channel?
- [02:45:54] <bewest>
http://microformats.org/wiki/digital-signatures
- [02:45:59] <tantek>
if not, deletion is a perfectly fine action to take
- [02:46:11] <bewest>
they are on the list
- [02:46:38] <tantek>
on the -new list?
- [02:46:44] <bewest>
-discuss
- [02:47:24] <tantek>
I usually put a big bold header of text at the top saying that the effort has failed to follow the process, and direct them to do so, and restart with a *-examples page etc.
- [02:47:37] <tantek>
Perhaps we should have some documentation on what to do when a newbie doesn't follow the process. :)
- [02:47:44] <bewest>
yeah
- [02:48:03] <bewest>
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-February/008663.html
- [02:50:03] <tantek>
we need to add a mention of the process to the how-to-play page
- [02:50:04] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play
- [02:52:21] <anselxyz>
possibly a n00b question: has anyone dealt with marking up company names and relating them back to stock symbols or something similar? i'd like to embed some machine-useful information in my markup.
- [02:52:48] <bewest>
anselxyz: sounds pretty good
- [02:52:50] <anselxyz>
i poked around a bit, but haven't found anything in obvious places
- [02:55:05] <bewest>
anselxyz: http://microformats.org/wiki/stock-symbol-examples
- [02:55:12] <bewest>
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-May/004180.html
- [02:56:06] <anselxyz>
aha.. thx
- [02:57:54] <anselxyz>
looks like it hasn't gone very far yet.
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- [03:04:28] <mfbot>
[[User:AnselHalliburton]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:AnselHalliburton * AnselHalliburton * (+207)
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- [03:09:49] <bewest>
anselxyz: right looks like plenty of room for growth
- [03:10:02] <bewest>
they started off correctly by finding sites listing stocks
- [03:10:16] <bewest>
but the URLs are missing, and it would be nice to also show the html used
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- [04:08:43] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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- [06:24:14] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [06:51:20] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [12:10:44] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [12:40:07] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [12:40:53] <tommorris>
I've just put up an angry, hate-filled (heh) rant about microformats: http://blogs.opml.org/tommorris/2007/02/10#microformats80Rdf20
- [12:41:15] <tommorris>
Please come and tell me how much of a heretic I am.
- [12:45:01] <bengee>
positioning RDF against MFs is just plain wrong and doesn't help anyone
- [12:45:34] <tommorris>
I don't think I am. I'm saying that microformats don't go far enough for domain-speicific information.
- [12:45:36] <bengee>
but maybe the post is meant to be ironic and I just didn't get it from flying over it
- [12:45:54] * briansuda sees tommorris will be attending barcamplondon2
- [12:46:05] <tommorris>
Yep, are you, Brian?
- [12:46:10] <briansuda>
yup
- [12:46:14] <tommorris>
Cool.
- [12:46:15] <bengee>
also the 0-5 example is flawed as hReview allows you to specify a custom range
- [12:47:17] * bengee usually describes eRDF as the longtail MFs which doesn't imply the silly "versus" argument
- [12:48:43] <tommorris>
Are there any examples of specifying custom ranges for rating?
- [12:48:55] <bengee>
best/worst
- [12:49:22] <tommorris>
Oh, okay. Yeah, I see it. I'll update my post (can't do much about the picture though)
- [12:50:15] <bengee>
I just wrote a MF2RDF converter this week, I found the tricky part was not the ranges but the qualified ratings (Food: 4/5)
- [12:50:42] <briansuda>
bengee have you been working on hReview?
- [12:51:01] <briansuda>
i have some XSLT to convert hReview->RDF Review (it is still touch-and-go)
- [12:51:53] <bengee>
cool, how do you handle the qualified ratings?
- [12:52:55] <briansuda>
i don't
- [12:52:55] <tommorris>
Erm, you probably need to reify the RDF. So you'd have:
- [12:53:11] * bengee uses danja's review vocab and generates separate reviews (with same reviewer and reviewed item) for each qualified rating
- [12:53:30] <briansuda>
there is an Ontology for Reviews which doesn't talk about ratings for specific tags. that is a different domain
- [12:53:43] <bengee>
tommorris, I tried to re-use existing vocabs
- [12:53:56] <briansuda>
bengee, that is the same one i am using.
- [12:54:17] <tommorris>
microformat:ratingInstance a hreview:rating; hreview:best "x"; hreview:worst "y"; hreview:rating "z".
- [12:54:41] <tommorris>
Dunno. Would have to think about that.
- [12:55:30] <bengee>
I ended up with ~20 different RDF vocabs, but at least I didn't have to make up new terms
- [12:55:30] <tommorris>
The ideal solution would be to create specific ontologies for each microformat, but declare lots of equivalences.
- [12:56:14] * bengee thinks re-using deployed vocabs as far as possible is the better solution
- [12:56:45] <tommorris>
So you'd have a namespace like "http://microformats.org/rdf/hreview", but the OWL file would list all the equivalences, and there could be an open process (wiki or mailing list) to find equivalences.
- [12:56:48] <bengee>
esp. given that the GRDDL WG has the opportunity now to publish recommended mappings
- [12:57:38] <bengee>
you'll be able to generate term URIs from the XMDPs, once they are published, tommorris
- [12:57:55] <bengee>
works for XFN, for example
- [12:59:08] <tommorris>
I think the thing that annoys me most is a lot of people I know are dismissing RDF *because of* microformats. They know think that they can just add a few microformats and they have done all they need to do to move towards the data web.
- [12:59:31] <tommorris>
s/know/now
- [13:00:07] <bengee>
hmm, not sure I'd disagree with them
- [13:00:17] <bengee>
as you said: 80/20
- [13:00:24] <briansuda>
microformats have always been VERY specific, they will never fix or encode all the data, only the very common stuff.
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- [13:03:46] <bengee>
they cover several things that many RDFers haven't really touched yet, though (e.g. votelinks, or hlisting)
- [13:04:40] <bengee>
so they may even help to direct the RDF crowd a little more towards practical/everyday use cases
- [13:04:57] <tommorris>
Indeed. One thing I'm struggling with is - I can't see the point in XOXO.
- [13:06:38] <bengee>
a note re RDFa, I personally don't like it at all, but they are trying to get it out of the xhtml2-only corner a little bit
- [13:06:47] <briansuda>
it is a sort of pre-JSON in HTML
- [13:06:47] <briansuda>
you can use it to encode and pass arrays around in HTML
- [13:06:47] <briansuda>
it also has its uses as an aternative to OPML
- [13:07:30] <tommorris>
The problem I have is that it doesn't actually tell us anything. It says "btw, this is an outline". But that doesn't really tell us anything.
- [13:08:17] <tommorris>
We really need a way of specifying "this is a feed list" or "this is a reading list", or "this is an outline of the content on this page".
- [13:08:38] * bengee thinks there is a "blogroll" class IIRC
- [13:09:16] <briansuda>
not to sound like a broken record, but you NEED or do you WANT specifics?
- [13:09:54] <tommorris>
Well, I want them. But without them, I'm struggling to see what advantage xoxo has over just plain old lists.
- [13:10:36] <briansuda>
i think there was talk that any old list is by default XOXO
- [13:11:52] <tommorris>
The problem is, if you are parsing them, you are probably parsing them for a purpose. You might want to extract a list of RSS feeds from them. But just being told "this is xoxo" doesn't tell a parser what it ought to do with them.
- [13:12:19] <tommorris>
It doesn't really convey any information at all, except that the author of the HTML page decided to call this an outline.
- [13:12:43] <briansuda>
:) but that's ok, because then you can create lists which are both at the same time.
- [13:13:07] * bengee experimented with MF+eRDF a little recently (my parser creates a merged triple set). One nice use case for XOXO can be to put it in a typed eRDF container that provides the necessary outline context
- [13:13:12] <briansuda>
if i want to extract OPML it is a XOXO with <a> elements with TYPES attributes of application/rss
- [13:13:46] <briansuda>
you could have a <ul> which is your 'attention' and some are RSS some are PDF some are MP#
- [13:14:03] <briansuda>
that is one list for attention, but could also be 3 other Feeds as well
- [13:14:26] <briansuda>
XOXO is used in conjunction with OTHER attributes to give more meaning
- [13:14:46] <briansuda>
this is similar to that massive rel-tag scope discussion.
- [13:15:07] <briansuda>
If you are concerned or have Questions about XOXO you should add them to the WIKI so we can document the Q&A for others
- [13:15:37] <tommorris>
Oh, no, I've found the right page on the wiki. The actual useful content is on the xoxo-brainstorming page, not the spec
- [13:16:52] <briansuda>
ok, feel free to add comments there as well.
- [13:17:12] <briansuda>
the Spec is probably PRE microformats.org, so it is not in the same shape/vein as things like hCard
- [13:18:04] <tommorris>
I've just taken a look at Dave Winer's OPML Editor. It actually has a component in there that can turn OPML in to XOXO...
- [13:19:25] <briansuda>
you can convert any XML to XOXO
- [13:19:29] <briansuda>
i have an XSLT for that
- [13:19:56] <briansuda>
if it is in HTML then you automatically have several 'viewers' of you data
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- [13:20:30] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [13:22:46] <bengee>
tommorris, just read the context/trigger comment for your post, do you know mindswap's filmtrust project?
- [13:23:12] <bengee>
they are doing movie ratings combined with IMDB data
- [13:25:12] <bengee>
but they have a special agreement with them and can't really make the movie data public IIRC...
- [13:26:49] <tommorris>
That's interesting. I'll look in to that.
- [13:27:16] <tommorris>
I found a really good screen-scraper for IMDB recently too. :)
- [13:30:05] <tommorris>
I've got an idea - there's gotta be a good way of putting movie attention data out there. i.e. "I've seen this film". That way, organising movie nights would be made more interesting. "Show me a movie that my friends might all like but haven't seen using algorithm X"
- [13:34:36] <briansuda>
there is an attention.xml (which isn't a microformat) then AMPL(?) which tryies to do the same thing
- [13:34:57] <briansuda>
while i agree you're idea is cool, it might be a very edge case :)
- [13:35:11] <briansuda>
we have done something similar with hReviews and XFN on Corkd
- [13:35:25] <briansuda>
you can find a wine that your friends have give 3 or higher stars too
- [13:35:55] <briansuda>
so you could negate that, and say, from this list X, show me all my friends that have NOT reviewed this movie
- [13:36:01] <briansuda>
(that doesn't always mean they haven
- [13:36:05] <briansuda>
't seen it_
- [13:36:08] <tommorris>
Well, yeah. Social networking with attention data about preferences could provide interesting opportunities.
- [13:36:32] <tommorris>
Every time I see a movie from now on, I'm adding the IMDB URL to my FOAF file.
- [13:37:05] <tommorris>
Become the change you want to see etc.
- [13:37:08] <briansuda>
with what predicate?
- [13:37:28] <tommorris>
rdf.opiumfield.com/movie/0.1/seen
- [13:38:18] <briansuda>
OK, that is very specific :)
- [13:38:41] * bengee wonders if the semantics of that term includes any form of drugs...
- [13:39:13] <briansuda>
seenOn, is that a timestamp or a state-of-mind
- [13:41:06] <tommorris>
Well, I could always have "seenSober" and "seenUnderTheInfluenceOfSubstancesNotTraditionallyAssociatedWithSobriety"
- [13:41:06] <tommorris>
Or again, we could reify the statement to include a statement about what drug you were on when you watched it.
- [13:42:03] <briansuda>
at the moment things like hReview sort of ASSUME that if you are reviewing it, then you must have also seen it
- [13:45:18] <tommorris>
That sort of assumption is fatal. One only has to listen to the radio for a few hours to hear people review books they obviously haven't read.
- [13:48:30] <briansuda>
:)
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- [14:46:53] <jibot>
Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
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- [14:56:22] <jibot>
Azathoth is the blind brainless mad god at the center of the universe. http://www.hplovecraft.com/creation/bestiary.htm
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- [15:58:12] * danja chuckles at logs : more semweb discussion over here than on #swig
- [16:25:32] <KevinMarks>
tommorris: you're missing the point there
- [16:25:44] <KevinMarks>
(lagged response)
- [16:26:08] <KevinMarks>
hReview has composable tags and ratings
- [16:26:31] <KevinMarks>
so you can represent all those attributes as either tags or rated tags
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- [16:43:22] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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- [18:36:24] <mfbot>
[[history-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-examples&diff=0&oldid=13412 * JeremyBoggs * (+159) HTML-based Timelines -
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- [18:51:28] <mfbot>
[[User:JeremyBoggs]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:JeremyBoggs * JeremyBoggs * (+28)
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- [18:58:03] <mfbot>
[[faq-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-fr&diff=0&oldid=13413 * ChristopheDucamp * (+300) Q : ''Qui contrôle les microformats '' - ajout liste administrateurs de la gouvernance
- [18:59:01] <tommorris>
KevinMarks: sorry for even more lagged response. Thanks for that, I'll post that.
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- [19:03:49] <mfbot>
[[books-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books-fr&diff=0&oldid=13414 * ChristopheDucamp * (+434) updating : add neogeography in english and John Allsop
- [19:10:09] <mfbot>
[[books]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=13415 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) neogeography -> link corrected
- [19:12:40] <mfbot>
[[books-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books-fr&diff=0&oldid=13416 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1)
- [19:16:15] <mfbot>
[[book-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-examples&diff=0&oldid=13417 * JeremyBoggs * (+130) Examples -
- [19:17:01] <mfbot>
[[Main Page-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=13418 * ChristopheDucamp * (+189) Signature digitales à traduire
- [19:24:31] <mfbot>
[[to-do-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do-fr&diff=0&oldid=13419 * ChristopheDucamp * (+276) mise à jour : discussions en cours sur la localisation d'un site francophone
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[[to-do-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do-fr&diff=0&oldid=13420 * ChristopheDucamp * (-61)
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- [19:45:36] <mfbot>
[[user-interface-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface-fr&diff=0&oldid=13421 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1568) Portabilité Réseau Social - ajout portabilité réseau social FAQ avec OpenID
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- [19:58:35] <xtof>
http://jyte.com/cl/jyte-should-integrate-microformats-votelinks - done
- [20:01:07] <xtof>
should I add that on http://microformats.org/wiki/vote-links#Implementations ?
- [20:01:48] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [20:03:17] <xtof>
thanks kevin.
- [20:06:29] * redmonk is now known as redmonk_yardwork
- [20:09:45] <mfbot>
[[vote-links]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links&diff=0&oldid=13422 * ChristopheDucamp * (+227) Brian Ellin implemented votelinks on jyte within less than 30 minutes
- [20:12:20] <mfbot>
[[vote-links-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links-fr&diff=0&oldid=13423 * ChristopheDucamp * (+268) ajout jyte : implémentation en moins de 30 minutes
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[[examples-in-the-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=examples-in-the-wild&diff=0&oldid=13424 * T1mmyb * (+0) Examples in the Wild - sp (microformats)
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- [21:57:22] <mfbot>
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13425 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) web direction north moved to recent
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- [22:01:41] <vbgunz>
I want to jump on the microformats train. Are only the most common global microformats listed under "specifications" on the wiki OR are there more standard microformats not listed there?
- [22:02:14] <vbgunz>
I see drafts but would like to stick with the most common mf's for now
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- [22:11:02] <mfbot>
[[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=13426 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1276) sync'd
- [22:11:23] <mfbot>
[[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=13427 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) typo
- [22:29:14] <KevinMarks>
start with the specifications
- [22:34:49] <mfbot>
[[advocacy-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13428 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1069) updated : ajout contact pages jaunes, jyte, anpe et besoin d'aide pour canal+
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- [22:37:04] <mfbot>
[[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13429 * ChristopheDucamp * (+177) Banques -
- [22:37:08] <JamieKnight>
hiya,
- [22:40:46] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
- [22:42:27] <tantek>
vbgunz, most common microformats are listed on the home page of http://microformats.org/
- [22:42:33] <tantek>
right column
- [22:42:55] <JamieKnight>
hiya tantek
- [22:44:19] <vbgunz>
tantek: I see them, it is such a small list. I love the idea and am reading up on XFN at the moment. this all sounds really good.
- [22:44:42] <vbgunz>
it's almost perfect
- [22:45:54] <tantek>
vbgunz, start with just implementing one or two microformats on your site, the ones that seem the most obviously applicable/useful to you. from there you will learn and be better able to figure out what additional microformats to implement.
- [22:46:01] <tantek>
hi JamieKnight
- [22:46:18] * tantek is taking off to get some breakfast ;)
- [22:46:25] <vbgunz>
tantek: thank you :)
- [22:46:27] <xtof>
hi tantek, hi all... not really used to irc. Tell me if this assertion is stupid :
- [22:46:31] * JamieKnight wishs tantek some good food
- [22:46:31] <xtof>
http://jyte.com/cl/openid-should-integrate-hcard-2
- [22:47:16] <tantek>
xtof, makes sense to me
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- [23:04:58] <mfbot>
[[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13430 * ChristopheDucamp * (-3) Banques -
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[[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13431 * ChristopheDucamp * (-6) Divers -
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