IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-11
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:06:21] * tantek (n=tantek@d154-5-25-188.bchsia.telus.net) Quit ()
- [00:08:46] <vbgunz>
"Color me dense, but I can't for the life of me figure out what XOXO offers." heh, my first faq :)
- [00:15:20] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1632)
- [00:16:41] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr&diff=0&oldid=13432 * ChristopheDucamp * (-9) Seront présents -
- [00:19:31] <mfbot>
[[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=13433 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0)
- [00:21:02] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr&diff=0&oldid=13434 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1623) page to be deleted -> content to move on events-fr/2006-....
- [00:21:58] <mfbot>
[[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=13435 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) typo events-fr
- [00:22:14] <mfbot>
[[events-fr/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/events-fr/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of * ChristopheDucamp * (+1623)
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- [01:32:06] <KevinMarks>
tommorris: whats confusing about xoxo?
- [01:32:23] <tommorris>
I don't see the point in it.
- [01:32:32] <tommorris>
It doesn't really tell us anything.
- [01:33:05] <KevinMarks>
I'm puzzled that you say that in the context of praising other open-ended serilaisations
- [01:33:55] <KevinMarks>
XOXO, lets you store nested lists and dictionaries
- [01:34:02] <KevinMarks>
rather like JSON does
- [01:34:07] <KevinMarks>
except in HTML
- [01:34:13] <tommorris>
HTML lists let you store nested lists and dictionaries.
- [01:34:14] <KevinMarks>
and it has special treatment for urls
- [01:34:22] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [01:34:24] <KevinMarks>
indeed
- [01:34:31] <KevinMarks>
XOXO is a subset of HTML
- [01:34:48] <KevinMarks>
so, let me turn it around
- [01:34:54] <KevinMarks>
why would you use OPML?
- [01:34:54] <tommorris>
I get that, but I don't get how adding class="xoxo" adds anything.
- [01:35:11] <KevinMarks>
it asserts it follows the XOXO constraints
- [01:35:11] <tommorris>
To display outlines in an OPML viewer or reader.
- [01:35:24] <KevinMarks>
thta makes no sense
- [01:35:42] <KevinMarks>
XOXO constraints being single key/value use in <dl>
- [01:35:50] <KevinMarks>
and the URL constraints
- [01:36:04] <tommorris>
I sort of see it, but I think the wiki page needs to be written in such a way as to give better use cases and examples etc.
- [01:36:11] <KevinMarks>
thats fair
- [01:36:23] <KevinMarks>
also I need to better document the libraries for it
- [01:36:37] <tommorris>
It needs a page saying "why XOXO over ___?" (HTML lists, OPML, etc.)
- [01:37:15] <KevinMarks>
OPML should naturally output it
- [01:37:30] <KevinMarks>
instead of that table-based mess the OPML viewers do by default
- [01:37:54] <tommorris>
Have you seen the OPML Editor?
- [01:38:30] <KevinMarks>
not recently
- [01:38:39] <KevinMarks>
have you seen Les's XOXO editor?
- [01:38:41] <tommorris>
I'll probably stick together a XOXO generator from it. So you can write an outline in the OPML Editor, and click "Show me XOXO", and it'll load up a browser window with XOXO.
- [01:38:51] <KevinMarks>
nice
- [01:38:54] <KevinMarks>
do import too
- [01:39:36] <KevinMarks>
I did download it once, but didn't geta chance to get it building - this was a while back
- [01:39:42] <tommorris>
That's a bit tougher. I'd have to get my head around Dave's XML parser. Far easier to do that server side and deliver the results through, oh, XML-RPC etc.
- [01:40:11] <tommorris>
Does XOXO require well-formedness?
- [01:40:14] <KevinMarks>
what's it written in again?
- [01:40:49] <tommorris>
The 'kernel' is written in C, and everything else is written in UserTalk.
- [01:40:59] <KevinMarks>
it's a microformat - it specifies well-formedness, but parsers need to be resilient against HTML errors
- [01:41:01] <KevinMarks>
oh dear
- [01:41:10] <KevinMarks>
and it doesnt really get unicode, does it, iirc
- [01:41:14] <tommorris>
The kernel and a lot of the UserTalk are open source - frontierkernel.org
- [01:41:35] <tommorris>
Probably not.
- [01:41:55] <KevinMarks>
http://www.decafbad.com/2005/07/map-test/tree2.html
- [01:42:05] <tommorris>
That's why I don't use XSLT for microformats. BeautifulSoup takes a bit more typin', but it *works*
- [01:42:20] <tommorris>
You've converted me to Python, btw.
- [01:42:32] <KevinMarks>
me? surely Pilgrim
- [01:42:57] <KevinMarks>
BeautifulSoup is nice but it does rather a lot of object-creation by default
- [01:43:15] <tommorris>
No, you were telling me about it a while back, specifically that it supports Unicode better than Ruby.
- [01:43:46] <tommorris>
Zen moment: I'm listening to a podcast which is talking about Technorati while talking to KevinMarks.
- [01:43:52] <KevinMarks>
though using a SoupStrainer to extract the bit you want first makes it better
- [01:43:54] <KevinMarks>
heh
- [01:44:38] <tommorris>
The first thing I did with BeautifulSoup was parse a MySpace profile with it.
- [01:44:59] <KevinMarks>
Python's unicode handling is nice once you realise the zen of it is to always work in unicode internally, and encode only on the way in and out
- [01:45:58] <tommorris>
Is Technorati going to support RDFa when XHTML 2 becomes a standard?
- [01:46:58] <KevinMarks>
I doubt it
- [01:48:08] <KevinMarks>
I don't really get your objections to hReview BTW
- [01:48:22] <KevinMarks>
nothign is stopping you from extending it on your own, it's HTML
- [01:48:32] <tommorris>
It's not so much objections, but examples of how microformats can't scale to domain-specific knowledge.
- [01:48:50] <KevinMarks>
well, your example was wrong
- [01:49:19] <KevinMarks>
you cna have ratings on any tag, you can have unrated tags, whcih woudl let you do NC-17 or whatever
- [01:49:40] * JamieKnight wonders back into the room and says his hellos
- [01:49:44] <KevinMarks>
and as rel-tags are URLs, they are namespaced by the tagspace used
- [01:50:11] <JamieKnight>
or you can externally use them,
- [01:50:22] <JamieKnight>
you are not tied to one domain, but you can show a preference
- [01:50:30] * JamieKnight hopes he isent interjecting!
- [01:51:06] <KevinMarks>
on the broader point, you can always add new semantic markup
- [01:51:31] <KevinMarks>
that's the beauty of using HTML
- [01:51:34] <tommorris>
But if you do, you have to rewrite the microformat parsers.
- [01:51:36] <chimezie>
There is a ceiling to how much you can buy in tagging up HTML for capturing expressive semantics
- [01:51:44] <JamieKnight>
no you dont,
- [01:51:53] <JamieKnight>
the extracttor will extract what it needs,
- [01:52:01] <KevinMarks>
you have to rewrite the extractors anyway
- [01:52:04] <KevinMarks>
to map the meaning
- [01:52:05] <JamieKnight>
IE, the gmail extractor take the paramter gmail likes,
- [01:52:09] <chimezie>
it bottoms out in HTML.. which was never meant to capture knowledge (much less domain specific knowledge)
- [01:52:36] <KevinMarks>
chimezie: I'm talking about sharing meaning, not capturing knowledge
- [01:52:48] <chimezie>
there is a difference?
- [01:52:53] <tommorris>
Exactly, the point of my blog post was to point out that there are a lot of "20% situations" (okay, I didn't use the right example) - and for those, it becomes easier to move towards RDF.
- [01:52:58] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [01:53:07] <KevinMarks>
yes to chimezie
- [01:53:10] <KevinMarks>
no to RDF
- [01:54:38] <KevinMarks>
knowledge is slippery stuff
- [01:54:44] <KevinMarks>
irreducible to syllogisms
- [01:55:28] <chimezie>
it is only as slippery as the underlying representation you use to capture it... and there is plenty precedent in this regard
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- [01:55:36] <KevinMarks>
http://www.shirky.com/writings/semantic_syllogism.html
- [01:55:40] <chimezie>
RDF is only one manifestation ..
- [01:56:15] <tommorris>
call it "namespaced properties" if you like. :) What I mean is that when I say "football" and you say "soccer" we mean the same thing, and when you say "football" and I say "football", we may not mean the same thing.
- [01:56:49] <KevinMarks>
nah, I grew p in London, I know all about footie
- [01:57:19] <KevinMarks>
Simon Pegg's quote is good here: 'we made only one subtle dialogue adjustment during the writing process, changing the word "pissed" to "drunk", so as to avoid any confusion between the conditions of being munted and mardy'
- [01:57:41] <chimezie>
hehe
- [01:58:16] <tommorris>
The flaw in Shirky's reasoning: "People who live in Brooklyn speak with a Brooklyn accent"
- [01:58:21] <KevinMarks>
homographophobia is strangely prevalent among XML programmers
- [01:59:01] <tommorris>
homographophobia -> 3 results on Google.
- [02:00:01] <KevinMarks>
I shoudl get the domain
- [02:01:24] <KevinMarks>
homographophobes: people who are so scared of homographs they want to lock everyone up in namespaces for fear of contamination
- [02:01:41] <tommorris>
The first two of Shirky's sections miss the point. Nobody is suggesting that we should scrap expressive, rich language.
- [02:02:58] <KevinMarks>
hm, actually thats an idea
- [02:03:18] <KevinMarks>
we should encourage RDF advocates to write their specs only in Lojban
- [02:03:34] <tommorris>
They're already written in a dialect of Middle Brainfuck.
- [02:05:33] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
- [02:05:36] <tommorris>
Shirky doesn't delineate between the Semantic Web as philosophy and the SemWeb stack (XML>RDF>RDFS>OWL...)
- [02:05:52] <KevinMarks>
anway, what I'm getting at is that RDF doesn't buy you anything in the context of sharing interpretations
- [02:06:11] <KevinMarks>
as you still have to map the extended parameters into your own representation
- [02:06:19] <tommorris>
No, but it buys you a lot in terms of scalability.
- [02:06:30] <KevinMarks>
nope
- [02:07:36] <chimezie>
that's a bit harsh Kevin..
- [02:07:36] <tommorris>
The data has an implicit model - triples. You can scale that up and shift it between formats easier than you can if your data is 'tag soup' or 'class name soup'.
- [02:08:34] <KevinMarks>
but you've already got an hReview parser
- [02:08:55] <KevinMarks>
if you add a new class to express something, tere you go
- [02:09:02] <KevinMarks>
adjust your parser
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- [02:09:11] <tommorris>
That's the problem.
- [02:09:14] <KevinMarks>
now it's in your own internal format
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- [02:09:27] <KevinMarks>
no
- [02:09:36] <KevinMarks>
the problem is getting otehr people to agree on your meaning
- [02:10:11] <chimezie>
it's the same (challenge) problem in both scenarios
- [02:10:26] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [02:10:30] <chimezie>
the mitigating factor is how expressive your underlying representation is to facilitate consensus
- [02:10:31] <KevinMarks>
so RDF buys you nothing
- [02:10:49] <chimezie>
it buys you better tools to reach concensus
- [02:11:08] <KevinMarks>
I'd take beautifulsoup over RDF parsers
- [02:11:14] <KevinMarks>
tool-wise
- [02:11:23] <KevinMarks>
but that might just be me
- [02:11:28] <tommorris>
I dunno. You tried rdflib in Python?
- [02:11:34] <chimezie>
i don't really think all or nothing arguments with regards to using markup or a KR (RDF) are constructive, btw
- [02:11:45] <chimezie>
tommorris: I do heavy development with rdflib
- [02:12:06] <KevinMarks>
if your target group for people to gain agreement with is those comfortable with RDF parsers, then you're fine
- [02:12:38] <chimezie>
that's the unforunate problem with Shirky's critique ... it strives to claim there is *no* value in the rigor of formal knowledge representation..
- [02:13:05] <KevinMarks>
he doesn't say ti has no value
- [02:13:05] <chimezie>
which is as short sighted as saying expressive KR are a panacea to capturing meaning
- [02:15:14] <tommorris>
Kevin, I don't think this has solved the problem. I'm not saying you shouldn't use uF in most circumstances.
- [02:15:22] <KevinMarks>
he says it is far narrower in utility
- [02:15:26] <chimezie>
[[[
- [02:15:27] <chimezie>
If the world can't be reduced to unambiguous statements that can be effortlessly recombined, then it will be hard to rescue the Artificial Intelligence project
- [02:15:28] <chimezie>
]]]
- [02:15:35] <chimezie>
ive heard this *many* time before
- [02:17:18] <tommorris>
What I'm saying is that for the 20% cases, the value in trying to add microformats diminishes. Microformats as a design pattern works when there's a cowpath already there to pave over. Domain-specific information is not a cowpath. RDF *may* be a more appropriate option, and not one to be dismissed out of hand.
- [02:18:00] <KevinMarks>
and how does hearing it before affect it's truthfulness?
- [02:18:29] <KevinMarks>
http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/11/ai-pipedreams-now-called-web-30.html
- [02:19:40] * chimezie thinks people who slander the efforts of KR should be familiar with it's goals beforehand
- [02:20:16] <chimezie>
for instance.... http://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/ftp/psz/k-rep.html is pretty clear about
- [02:20:19] <tommorris>
Fight! Fight! Fight!
- [02:20:35] <tommorris>
C'mon! It's Saturday night!
- [02:20:38] <chimezie>
:)
- [02:20:59] <tommorris>
Wow. Another long article to add to my "toread" tag.
- [02:21:10] <chimezie>
... the fate of all representation as "imperfect approximations of reality" ...
- [02:21:56] <chimezie>
My only frustration (when the RDF tax conversation comes up) is the assumption that representations of this kind were intended to be 'perfect'
- [02:22:12] <KevinMarks>
that's nto the complaint
- [02:22:43] <KevinMarks>
it's taxation without representation
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- [02:25:59] <tommorris>
I've gone through and put all the films I can remember watching in to my FOAF file. Social movie networking, here we come.
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- [02:26:12] <tommorris>
It'd be cool if we could have rel="watched".
- [02:26:22] <KevinMarks>
so start using it
- [02:26:27] <KevinMarks>
no-one is stopping you
- [02:26:54] <tommorris>
Indeed. But it's far more fun to dance if others do too.
- [02:27:12] <KevinMarks>
right, but thats down to convincing them
- [02:28:17] <tommorris>
Kevin, do you have any ideas about citation microformatting?
- [02:28:19] <chimezie>
niave question: do most microformat parsers have tidy in the front of the pipeline (or some equivalent)?
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- [02:29:30] <tommorris>
Pretty much. Well-formedness makes parsing a lot easier.
- [02:29:41] <KevinMarks>
expressing it as an RDF triple http://blogs.opml.org/tommorris/ http://tomsrdfspace.com/watchedAMovie http://imdb.com/blah doesnt make it any liklier that you'll convince them
- [02:30:48] <tommorris>
No, I'm doing it so that my workflow is simpler. I'm SPARQLing it to turn it in to HTML and other formats.
- [02:31:16] <chimezie>
to this day, I still don't understand why the *X*HTML effort has failed so horribly...
- [02:31:22] <KevinMarks>
citations are tricky
- [02:31:36] <KevinMarks>
there is a lot of debate round them, adn I haven't followed it closely
- [02:31:50] <KevinMarks>
because it is fll fo partisans too
- [02:32:26] <KevinMarks>
the real problem is a mapping one, mapping netflix to mazon to imdb to itunes to whatever URLs
- [02:32:33] <KevinMarks>
*amazon
- [02:32:40] <tommorris>
One of the things that I think a microformat citations should specify is that they *must* use an unique ID.
- [02:32:51] <KevinMarks>
URLs are unique IDs
- [02:33:06] <KevinMarks>
however, some of them have shared meaning
- [02:33:16] <tommorris>
Yeah, but if you have 25 citations on a webpage and you don't put an id attribute on the divs, they're *not* unique.
- [02:34:02] <tommorris>
The citations thing interests me because I've been writing university essays as XHTML recently.
- [02:34:06] <KevinMarks>
you mean citatiosn that are footnotelike, not inline ones?
- [02:34:30] <tommorris>
either. they should all be specifiable through a microformat.
- [02:34:47] <KevinMarks>
the wikimedia design pattern isn't bad
- [02:35:03] <KevinMarks>
someone hacked it inot SocialText wkis on Weds
- [02:35:36] <tommorris>
There should be *no* insistence on style or layout. But when one puts a citation string, one should be able to mark it up using spans.
- [02:36:50] <tommorris>
Some people use footnotes, or anchors-notes, some use Harvard style, some MLA. Must be agnostic if it's going to work.
- [02:38:26] <KevinMarks>
right, I haven't ben following cite closely
- [02:39:22] <tommorris>
XHTML + XInclude + cite microformat = replacement for word processor, for me.
- [02:39:26] <KevinMarks>
http://microformats.org/wiki/alternates-brainstorming#Strawman_6_.28lists_.2B_explicit_alternator_.2B_using_existing_HTML_idiom.29
- [02:39:41] <KevinMarks>
tommorris: how much of it can you do in google docs?
- [02:39:42] <chimezie>
as long as you don't forget the *X* then I agree =)
- [02:41:26] <KevinMarks>
http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/03/ajaxwrite-huge-missed-opportunity.html
- [02:41:32] <tommorris>
Not much. My current word processor (LyX) is designed for academic work - thus has citation functionality.
- [02:42:40] <KevinMarks>
the attraction of google docs to me is that HTML is it's native format
- [02:43:09] <tommorris>
I've tried DocBook XML, but it's too complicated. Semantic HTML and CSS could do the job (although to actually get a good print-out, one has to use XSL-FO). There is a certain point where messing around with CSS and XSL-FO has to give way to actually writing the essay.
- [02:43:44] <tommorris>
The problem is that Google Docs is still dealing in presentational markup, not semantics.
- [02:43:59] <KevinMarks>
structural
- [02:44:12] <KevinMarks>
but not semantic, thats fair
- [02:46:08] <tommorris>
I'm hoping that someone will do for essay writing what Eric Meyer's S5 has done for PowerPointing.
- [02:46:59] <tommorris>
But I have to go. I'm listening to an MP3 of a friend taking recreational drugs. And it's getting close to 3am. Goodnight.
- [02:47:06] <KevinMarks>
night tom
- [02:47:13] <KevinMarks>
I have some s5 hacks I need to finish
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- [05:29:16] <vbgunz>
regarding XOXO; use of the compact attribute in XHTML 1.0 strict is deprecated and invalidates. Maybe I missed it but is there an alternative other than making my doctype transitional OR must I simply design XOXO's without the compact attribute?
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- [13:09:41] <mfbot>
[[book-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13436 * JRem * (+0) Background -
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- [17:24:11] <Aleksandersen>
Hi, is this the right place to make a suggestion for hCards?
- [17:31:46] <ajturner>
Aleksandersen - better on the MF mailing list or wiki
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- [17:50:56] <Aleksandersen>
ajturner: OK, thanks.
- [17:51:29] <ajturner>
Aleksandersen - though this is a good place to get ideas or hash things out - it's not always 'well attended' :)
- [17:51:29] <Aleksandersen>
Does anyone know how to enable hCard support in Konqueror? I have seen screenshots of this, but I am unable to replicate the functionality.
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- [17:52:04] <Aleksandersen>
I just wanted to submit an idea for added GnuPG hashes for email addresses.
- [17:52:41] <ajturner>
well, first also search the archives/wiki to see if it's been brought up
- [17:53:46] <ajturner>
specifically, try out this GoogleSearch for size
- [17:53:47] <ajturner>
inurl:http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats- gnupg
- [17:53:56] <ajturner>
(paste that into google)
- [17:54:22] <ajturner>
hrm, just looks like references to people's signed emails
- [17:54:56] <ajturner>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hash-examples
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- [17:58:03] <Aleksandersen>
What I tought about where something like this: <a class="email" href="mailto:jqpublic@xyz.dom1.com" title="gnupg:bla-bla-bla-bla-bla">email jqpublic</a>
- [17:58:17] * Aleksandersen brb
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- [18:15:09] <Aleksandersen>
Or possibly linking to the public key it self: <a class="email" href="mailto:jqpublic@xyz.dom1.com" title="gnupg:bla-bla-bla-bla-bla">email jqpublic</a> <a href="key.asc" title="gnupg:bla-bla-bla-bla-bla">GnuPG key</a>
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- [19:25:21] <Atamido>
Is it wrong to have an XOXO class on ever level of an XOXO list?
- [19:25:46] <Atamido>
On every OL/UL of every level I mean.
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- [20:50:40] <vbgunz>
I asked this yesterday and got no answer. regarding XOXO; use of the compact attribute in XHTML 1.0 strict is deprecated and invalidates. Maybe I missed it but is there an alternative other than making my doctype transitional OR must I simply design XOXO's without the compact attribute?
- [20:51:22] <vbgunz>
It seems I can use XOXO and compact is not really required. I guess my question is, is there an alternative to achieve the same effect?
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- [21:25:15] <danja>
display:none?
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