IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:06:21] * tantek (n=tantek@d154-5-25-188.bchsia.telus.net) Quit ()
  2. [00:08:46] <vbgunz> "Color me dense, but I can't for the life of me figure out what XOXO offers." heh, my first faq :)
  3. [00:15:20] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1632)
  4. [00:16:41] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr&diff=0&oldid=13432 * ChristopheDucamp * (-9) Seront pr├ęsents -
  5. [00:19:31] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=13433 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0)
  6. [00:21:02] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of-fr&diff=0&oldid=13434 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1623) page to be deleted -> content to move on events-fr/2006-....
  7. [00:21:58] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=13435 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) typo events-fr
  8. [00:22:14] <mfbot> [[events-fr/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/events-fr/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of * ChristopheDucamp * (+1623)
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  20. [01:32:06] <KevinMarks> tommorris: whats confusing about xoxo?
  21. [01:32:23] <tommorris> I don't see the point in it.
  22. [01:32:32] <tommorris> It doesn't really tell us anything.
  23. [01:33:05] <KevinMarks> I'm puzzled that you say that in the context of praising other open-ended serilaisations
  24. [01:33:55] <KevinMarks> XOXO, lets you store nested lists and dictionaries
  25. [01:34:02] <KevinMarks> rather like JSON does
  26. [01:34:07] <KevinMarks> except in HTML
  27. [01:34:13] <tommorris> HTML lists let you store nested lists and dictionaries.
  28. [01:34:14] <KevinMarks> and it has special treatment for urls
  29. [01:34:22] <KevinMarks> yes
  30. [01:34:24] <KevinMarks> indeed
  31. [01:34:31] <KevinMarks> XOXO is a subset of HTML
  32. [01:34:48] <KevinMarks> so, let me turn it around
  33. [01:34:54] <KevinMarks> why would you use OPML?
  34. [01:34:54] <tommorris> I get that, but I don't get how adding class="xoxo" adds anything.
  35. [01:35:11] <KevinMarks> it asserts it follows the XOXO constraints
  36. [01:35:11] <tommorris> To display outlines in an OPML viewer or reader.
  37. [01:35:24] <KevinMarks> thta makes no sense
  38. [01:35:42] <KevinMarks> XOXO constraints being single key/value use in <dl>
  39. [01:35:50] <KevinMarks> and the URL constraints
  40. [01:36:04] <tommorris> I sort of see it, but I think the wiki page needs to be written in such a way as to give better use cases and examples etc.
  41. [01:36:11] <KevinMarks> thats fair
  42. [01:36:23] <KevinMarks> also I need to better document the libraries for it
  43. [01:36:37] <tommorris> It needs a page saying "why XOXO over ___?" (HTML lists, OPML, etc.)
  44. [01:37:15] <KevinMarks> OPML should naturally output it
  45. [01:37:30] <KevinMarks> instead of that table-based mess the OPML viewers do by default
  46. [01:37:54] <tommorris> Have you seen the OPML Editor?
  47. [01:38:30] <KevinMarks> not recently
  48. [01:38:39] <KevinMarks> have you seen Les's XOXO editor?
  49. [01:38:41] <tommorris> I'll probably stick together a XOXO generator from it. So you can write an outline in the OPML Editor, and click "Show me XOXO", and it'll load up a browser window with XOXO.
  50. [01:38:51] <KevinMarks> nice
  51. [01:38:54] <KevinMarks> do import too
  52. [01:39:36] <KevinMarks> I did download it once, but didn't geta chance to get it building - this was a while back
  53. [01:39:42] <tommorris> That's a bit tougher. I'd have to get my head around Dave's XML parser. Far easier to do that server side and deliver the results through, oh, XML-RPC etc.
  54. [01:40:11] <tommorris> Does XOXO require well-formedness?
  55. [01:40:14] <KevinMarks> what's it written in again?
  56. [01:40:49] <tommorris> The 'kernel' is written in C, and everything else is written in UserTalk.
  57. [01:40:59] <KevinMarks> it's a microformat - it specifies well-formedness, but parsers need to be resilient against HTML errors
  58. [01:41:01] <KevinMarks> oh dear
  59. [01:41:10] <KevinMarks> and it doesnt really get unicode, does it, iirc
  60. [01:41:14] <tommorris> The kernel and a lot of the UserTalk are open source - frontierkernel.org
  61. [01:41:35] <tommorris> Probably not.
  62. [01:41:55] <KevinMarks> http://www.decafbad.com/2005/07/map-test/tree2.html
  63. [01:42:05] <tommorris> That's why I don't use XSLT for microformats. BeautifulSoup takes a bit more typin', but it *works*
  64. [01:42:20] <tommorris> You've converted me to Python, btw.
  65. [01:42:32] <KevinMarks> me? surely Pilgrim
  66. [01:42:57] <KevinMarks> BeautifulSoup is nice but it does rather a lot of object-creation by default
  67. [01:43:15] <tommorris> No, you were telling me about it a while back, specifically that it supports Unicode better than Ruby.
  68. [01:43:46] <tommorris> Zen moment: I'm listening to a podcast which is talking about Technorati while talking to KevinMarks.
  69. [01:43:52] <KevinMarks> though using a SoupStrainer to extract the bit you want first makes it better
  70. [01:43:54] <KevinMarks> heh
  71. [01:44:38] <tommorris> The first thing I did with BeautifulSoup was parse a MySpace profile with it.
  72. [01:44:59] <KevinMarks> Python's unicode handling is nice once you realise the zen of it is to always work in unicode internally, and encode only on the way in and out
  73. [01:45:58] <tommorris> Is Technorati going to support RDFa when XHTML 2 becomes a standard?
  74. [01:46:58] <KevinMarks> I doubt it
  75. [01:48:08] <KevinMarks> I don't really get your objections to hReview BTW
  76. [01:48:22] <KevinMarks> nothign is stopping you from extending it on your own, it's HTML
  77. [01:48:32] <tommorris> It's not so much objections, but examples of how microformats can't scale to domain-specific knowledge.
  78. [01:48:50] <KevinMarks> well, your example was wrong
  79. [01:49:19] <KevinMarks> you cna have ratings on any tag, you can have unrated tags, whcih woudl let you do NC-17 or whatever
  80. [01:49:40] * JamieKnight wonders back into the room and says his hellos
  81. [01:49:44] <KevinMarks> and as rel-tags are URLs, they are namespaced by the tagspace used
  82. [01:50:11] <JamieKnight> or you can externally use them,
  83. [01:50:22] <JamieKnight> you are not tied to one domain, but you can show a preference
  84. [01:50:30] * JamieKnight hopes he isent interjecting!
  85. [01:51:06] <KevinMarks> on the broader point, you can always add new semantic markup
  86. [01:51:31] <KevinMarks> that's the beauty of using HTML
  87. [01:51:34] <tommorris> But if you do, you have to rewrite the microformat parsers.
  88. [01:51:36] <chimezie> There is a ceiling to how much you can buy in tagging up HTML for capturing expressive semantics
  89. [01:51:44] <JamieKnight> no you dont,
  90. [01:51:53] <JamieKnight> the extracttor will extract what it needs,
  91. [01:52:01] <KevinMarks> you have to rewrite the extractors anyway
  92. [01:52:04] <KevinMarks> to map the meaning
  93. [01:52:05] <JamieKnight> IE, the gmail extractor take the paramter gmail likes,
  94. [01:52:09] <chimezie> it bottoms out in HTML.. which was never meant to capture knowledge (much less domain specific knowledge)
  95. [01:52:36] <KevinMarks> chimezie: I'm talking about sharing meaning, not capturing knowledge
  96. [01:52:48] <chimezie> there is a difference?
  97. [01:52:53] <tommorris> Exactly, the point of my blog post was to point out that there are a lot of "20% situations" (okay, I didn't use the right example) - and for those, it becomes easier to move towards RDF.
  98. [01:52:58] <KevinMarks> yes
  99. [01:53:07] <KevinMarks> yes to chimezie
  100. [01:53:10] <KevinMarks> no to RDF
  101. [01:54:38] <KevinMarks> knowledge is slippery stuff
  102. [01:54:44] <KevinMarks> irreducible to syllogisms
  103. [01:55:28] <chimezie> it is only as slippery as the underlying representation you use to capture it... and there is plenty precedent in this regard
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  105. [01:55:36] <KevinMarks> http://www.shirky.com/writings/semantic_syllogism.html
  106. [01:55:40] <chimezie> RDF is only one manifestation ..
  107. [01:56:15] <tommorris> call it "namespaced properties" if you like. :) What I mean is that when I say "football" and you say "soccer" we mean the same thing, and when you say "football" and I say "football", we may not mean the same thing.
  108. [01:56:49] <KevinMarks> nah, I grew p in London, I know all about footie
  109. [01:57:19] <KevinMarks> Simon Pegg's quote is good here: 'we made only one subtle dialogue adjustment during the writing process, changing the word "pissed" to "drunk", so as to avoid any confusion between the conditions of being munted and mardy'
  110. [01:57:41] <chimezie> hehe
  111. [01:58:16] <tommorris> The flaw in Shirky's reasoning: "People who live in Brooklyn speak with a Brooklyn accent"
  112. [01:58:21] <KevinMarks> homographophobia is strangely prevalent among XML programmers
  113. [01:59:01] <tommorris> homographophobia -> 3 results on Google.
  114. [02:00:01] <KevinMarks> I shoudl get the domain
  115. [02:01:24] <KevinMarks> homographophobes: people who are so scared of homographs they want to lock everyone up in namespaces for fear of contamination
  116. [02:01:41] <tommorris> The first two of Shirky's sections miss the point. Nobody is suggesting that we should scrap expressive, rich language.
  117. [02:02:58] <KevinMarks> hm, actually thats an idea
  118. [02:03:18] <KevinMarks> we should encourage RDF advocates to write their specs only in Lojban
  119. [02:03:34] <tommorris> They're already written in a dialect of Middle Brainfuck.
  120. [02:05:33] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
  121. [02:05:36] <tommorris> Shirky doesn't delineate between the Semantic Web as philosophy and the SemWeb stack (XML>RDF>RDFS>OWL...)
  122. [02:05:52] <KevinMarks> anway, what I'm getting at is that RDF doesn't buy you anything in the context of sharing interpretations
  123. [02:06:11] <KevinMarks> as you still have to map the extended parameters into your own representation
  124. [02:06:19] <tommorris> No, but it buys you a lot in terms of scalability.
  125. [02:06:30] <KevinMarks> nope
  126. [02:07:36] <chimezie> that's a bit harsh Kevin..
  127. [02:07:36] <tommorris> The data has an implicit model - triples. You can scale that up and shift it between formats easier than you can if your data is 'tag soup' or 'class name soup'.
  128. [02:08:34] <KevinMarks> but you've already got an hReview parser
  129. [02:08:55] <KevinMarks> if you add a new class to express something, tere you go
  130. [02:09:02] <KevinMarks> adjust your parser
  131. [02:09:06] * redmonk_yardwork (n=steve@ip68-96-52-225.ph.ph.cox.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  132. [02:09:11] <tommorris> That's the problem.
  133. [02:09:14] <KevinMarks> now it's in your own internal format
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  135. [02:09:27] <KevinMarks> no
  136. [02:09:36] <KevinMarks> the problem is getting otehr people to agree on your meaning
  137. [02:10:11] <chimezie> it's the same (challenge) problem in both scenarios
  138. [02:10:26] <KevinMarks> yes
  139. [02:10:30] <chimezie> the mitigating factor is how expressive your underlying representation is to facilitate consensus
  140. [02:10:31] <KevinMarks> so RDF buys you nothing
  141. [02:10:49] <chimezie> it buys you better tools to reach concensus
  142. [02:11:08] <KevinMarks> I'd take beautifulsoup over RDF parsers
  143. [02:11:14] <KevinMarks> tool-wise
  144. [02:11:23] <KevinMarks> but that might just be me
  145. [02:11:28] <tommorris> I dunno. You tried rdflib in Python?
  146. [02:11:34] <chimezie> i don't really think all or nothing arguments with regards to using markup or a KR (RDF) are constructive, btw
  147. [02:11:45] <chimezie> tommorris: I do heavy development with rdflib
  148. [02:12:06] <KevinMarks> if your target group for people to gain agreement with is those comfortable with RDF parsers, then you're fine
  149. [02:12:38] <chimezie> that's the unforunate problem with Shirky's critique ... it strives to claim there is *no* value in the rigor of formal knowledge representation..
  150. [02:13:05] <KevinMarks> he doesn't say ti has no value
  151. [02:13:05] <chimezie> which is as short sighted as saying expressive KR are a panacea to capturing meaning
  152. [02:15:14] <tommorris> Kevin, I don't think this has solved the problem. I'm not saying you shouldn't use uF in most circumstances.
  153. [02:15:22] <KevinMarks> he says it is far narrower in utility
  154. [02:15:26] <chimezie> [[[
  155. [02:15:27] <chimezie> If the world can't be reduced to unambiguous statements that can be effortlessly recombined, then it will be hard to rescue the Artificial Intelligence project
  156. [02:15:28] <chimezie> ]]]
  157. [02:15:35] <chimezie> ive heard this *many* time before
  158. [02:17:18] <tommorris> What I'm saying is that for the 20% cases, the value in trying to add microformats diminishes. Microformats as a design pattern works when there's a cowpath already there to pave over. Domain-specific information is not a cowpath. RDF *may* be a more appropriate option, and not one to be dismissed out of hand.
  159. [02:18:00] <KevinMarks> and how does hearing it before affect it's truthfulness?
  160. [02:18:29] <KevinMarks> http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/11/ai-pipedreams-now-called-web-30.html
  161. [02:19:40] * chimezie thinks people who slander the efforts of KR should be familiar with it's goals beforehand
  162. [02:20:16] <chimezie> for instance.... http://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/ftp/psz/k-rep.html is pretty clear about
  163. [02:20:19] <tommorris> Fight! Fight! Fight!
  164. [02:20:35] <tommorris> C'mon! It's Saturday night!
  165. [02:20:38] <chimezie> :)
  166. [02:20:59] <tommorris> Wow. Another long article to add to my "toread" tag.
  167. [02:21:10] <chimezie> ... the fate of all representation as "imperfect approximations of reality" ...
  168. [02:21:56] <chimezie> My only frustration (when the RDF tax conversation comes up) is the assumption that representations of this kind were intended to be 'perfect'
  169. [02:22:12] <KevinMarks> that's nto the complaint
  170. [02:22:43] <KevinMarks> it's taxation without representation
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  172. [02:25:59] <tommorris> I've gone through and put all the films I can remember watching in to my FOAF file. Social movie networking, here we come.
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  174. [02:26:12] <tommorris> It'd be cool if we could have rel="watched".
  175. [02:26:22] <KevinMarks> so start using it
  176. [02:26:27] <KevinMarks> no-one is stopping you
  177. [02:26:54] <tommorris> Indeed. But it's far more fun to dance if others do too.
  178. [02:27:12] <KevinMarks> right, but thats down to convincing them
  179. [02:28:17] <tommorris> Kevin, do you have any ideas about citation microformatting?
  180. [02:28:19] <chimezie> niave question: do most microformat parsers have tidy in the front of the pipeline (or some equivalent)?
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  182. [02:29:30] <tommorris> Pretty much. Well-formedness makes parsing a lot easier.
  183. [02:29:41] <KevinMarks> expressing it as an RDF triple http://blogs.opml.org/tommorris/ http://tomsrdfspace.com/watchedAMovie http://imdb.com/blah doesnt make it any liklier that you'll convince them
  184. [02:30:48] <tommorris> No, I'm doing it so that my workflow is simpler. I'm SPARQLing it to turn it in to HTML and other formats.
  185. [02:31:16] <chimezie> to this day, I still don't understand why the *X*HTML effort has failed so horribly...
  186. [02:31:22] <KevinMarks> citations are tricky
  187. [02:31:36] <KevinMarks> there is a lot of debate round them, adn I haven't followed it closely
  188. [02:31:50] <KevinMarks> because it is fll fo partisans too
  189. [02:32:26] <KevinMarks> the real problem is a mapping one, mapping netflix to mazon to imdb to itunes to whatever URLs
  190. [02:32:33] <KevinMarks> *amazon
  191. [02:32:40] <tommorris> One of the things that I think a microformat citations should specify is that they *must* use an unique ID.
  192. [02:32:51] <KevinMarks> URLs are unique IDs
  193. [02:33:06] <KevinMarks> however, some of them have shared meaning
  194. [02:33:16] <tommorris> Yeah, but if you have 25 citations on a webpage and you don't put an id attribute on the divs, they're *not* unique.
  195. [02:34:02] <tommorris> The citations thing interests me because I've been writing university essays as XHTML recently.
  196. [02:34:06] <KevinMarks> you mean citatiosn that are footnotelike, not inline ones?
  197. [02:34:30] <tommorris> either. they should all be specifiable through a microformat.
  198. [02:34:47] <KevinMarks> the wikimedia design pattern isn't bad
  199. [02:35:03] <KevinMarks> someone hacked it inot SocialText wkis on Weds
  200. [02:35:36] <tommorris> There should be *no* insistence on style or layout. But when one puts a citation string, one should be able to mark it up using spans.
  201. [02:36:50] <tommorris> Some people use footnotes, or anchors-notes, some use Harvard style, some MLA. Must be agnostic if it's going to work.
  202. [02:38:26] <KevinMarks> right, I haven't ben following cite closely
  203. [02:39:22] <tommorris> XHTML + XInclude + cite microformat = replacement for word processor, for me.
  204. [02:39:26] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/alternates-brainstorming#Strawman_6_.28lists_.2B_explicit_alternator_.2B_using_existing_HTML_idiom.29
  205. [02:39:41] <KevinMarks> tommorris: how much of it can you do in google docs?
  206. [02:39:42] <chimezie> as long as you don't forget the *X* then I agree =)
  207. [02:41:26] <KevinMarks> http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/03/ajaxwrite-huge-missed-opportunity.html
  208. [02:41:32] <tommorris> Not much. My current word processor (LyX) is designed for academic work - thus has citation functionality.
  209. [02:42:40] <KevinMarks> the attraction of google docs to me is that HTML is it's native format
  210. [02:43:09] <tommorris> I've tried DocBook XML, but it's too complicated. Semantic HTML and CSS could do the job (although to actually get a good print-out, one has to use XSL-FO). There is a certain point where messing around with CSS and XSL-FO has to give way to actually writing the essay.
  211. [02:43:44] <tommorris> The problem is that Google Docs is still dealing in presentational markup, not semantics.
  212. [02:43:59] <KevinMarks> structural
  213. [02:44:12] <KevinMarks> but not semantic, thats fair
  214. [02:46:08] <tommorris> I'm hoping that someone will do for essay writing what Eric Meyer's S5 has done for PowerPointing.
  215. [02:46:59] <tommorris> But I have to go. I'm listening to an MP3 of a friend taking recreational drugs. And it's getting close to 3am. Goodnight.
  216. [02:47:06] <KevinMarks> night tom
  217. [02:47:13] <KevinMarks> I have some s5 hacks I need to finish
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  235. [05:29:16] <vbgunz> regarding XOXO; use of the compact attribute in XHTML 1.0 strict is deprecated and invalidates. Maybe I missed it but is there an alternative other than making my doctype transitional OR must I simply design XOXO's without the compact attribute?
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  267. [13:09:41] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13436 * JRem * (+0) Background -
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  289. [17:24:11] <Aleksandersen> Hi, is this the right place to make a suggestion for hCards?
  290. [17:31:46] <ajturner> Aleksandersen - better on the MF mailing list or wiki
  291. [17:37:21] * Kilianvalkhof (i=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  296. [17:50:56] <Aleksandersen> ajturner: OK, thanks.
  297. [17:51:29] <ajturner> Aleksandersen - though this is a good place to get ideas or hash things out - it's not always 'well attended' :)
  298. [17:51:29] <Aleksandersen> Does anyone know how to enable hCard support in Konqueror? I have seen screenshots of this, but I am unable to replicate the functionality.
  299. [17:51:54] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.113.14.211.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  300. [17:52:04] <Aleksandersen> I just wanted to submit an idea for added GnuPG hashes for email addresses.
  301. [17:52:41] <ajturner> well, first also search the archives/wiki to see if it's been brought up
  302. [17:53:46] <ajturner> specifically, try out this GoogleSearch for size
  303. [17:53:47] <ajturner> inurl:http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats- gnupg
  304. [17:53:56] <ajturner> (paste that into google)
  305. [17:54:22] <ajturner> hrm, just looks like references to people's signed emails
  306. [17:54:56] <ajturner> http://microformats.org/wiki/hash-examples
  307. [17:57:49] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-198-189-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  308. [17:58:03] <Aleksandersen> What I tought about where something like this: <a class="email" href="mailto:jqpublic@xyz.dom1.com" title="gnupg:bla-bla-bla-bla-bla">email jqpublic</a>
  309. [17:58:17] * Aleksandersen brb
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  312. [18:14:18] * Aleksandersen back
  313. [18:15:09] <Aleksandersen> Or possibly linking to the public key it self: <a class="email" href="mailto:jqpublic@xyz.dom1.com" title="gnupg:bla-bla-bla-bla-bla">email jqpublic</a> <a href="key.asc" title="gnupg:bla-bla-bla-bla-bla">GnuPG key</a>
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  330. [19:25:21] <Atamido> Is it wrong to have an XOXO class on ever level of an XOXO list?
  331. [19:25:46] <Atamido> On every OL/UL of every level I mean.
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  341. [20:50:40] <vbgunz> I asked this yesterday and got no answer. regarding XOXO; use of the compact attribute in XHTML 1.0 strict is deprecated and invalidates. Maybe I missed it but is there an alternative other than making my doctype transitional OR must I simply design XOXO's without the compact attribute?
  342. [20:51:22] <vbgunz> It seems I can use XOXO and compact is not really required. I guess my question is, is there an alternative to achieve the same effect?
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  345. [21:25:15] <danja> display:none?
  346. [21:25:26] * danja tends to forget such things
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