IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:25] <tantek> and then using that list, create a section for yourself on the "to-do" page and put the list there
  2. [00:00:28] <TylerR> Thanks JamieKnight.
  3. [00:00:33] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do
  4. [00:00:43] <TylerR> Perfect, will do.
  5. [00:03:58] <JamieKnight> good luck TylerR
  6. [00:04:06] <JamieKnight> i have to go now, bye evryone.
  7. [00:04:16] <defunkt> wow, i can't believe i missed vpim
  8. [00:04:17] <TylerR> Thanks JamieKnight. It's going to be an uphill battle for sure.
  9. [00:04:18] <defunkt> what a cool little program
  10. [00:04:39] * TylerR remembers the day he discovered TextMate.
  11. [00:04:52] <JamieKnight> you will succseded i am sure, if you need anything we are all behind you all the way
  12. [00:05:04] <defunkt> not vim :) vpim is a ruby thing for playing with iCal and vCard
  13. [00:05:21] <defunkt> unfortunately named, i suppose
  14. [00:05:27] <TylerR> Wonderful, thanks JamieKnight.
  15. [00:05:35] <JamieKnight> licks,
  16. [00:05:40] <JamieKnight> :D
  17. [00:05:43] <JamieKnight> byeeeeee,
  18. [00:06:33] * anselxyz (n=chatzill@DNab423110.Stanford.EDU) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  19. [00:06:38] * TylerR waves.
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  22. [00:11:00] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13514 * ChristopheDucamp * (+756)
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  24. [00:14:11] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13515 * ChristopheDucamp * (+206) Exemples avec quelques problèmes -
  25. [00:15:29] * tantek realizes he made a lot of work for ChristopheDucamp with the recent hcard-examples-in-wild reorg
  26. [00:17:48] <TylerR> tantek: Would you mind if I included your name in an e-mail to my development manager? He's pitching the blog formation tomorrow and wanted a bit of detail as to the background of uf.
  27. [00:17:51] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13516 * ChristopheDucamp * (+353) currently synchronizing
  28. [00:18:47] <tantek> TylerR - you may mention me in regards to my contributions to microformats, but please do not imply in any way that I am a "contact" for microformats. In other words, avoiding making me a bottleneck of any sort.
  29. [00:19:16] <TylerR> Oh definitely not. It was exactly as you put, I would using your contributions as example.
  30. [00:19:18] <tantek> The channels of communication defined on microformats.org/discuss are the appropriate ways to interact with the microformats community.
  31. [00:19:24] <tantek> Thanks.
  32. [00:20:07] <TylerR> Sure thing. We're just wanting to make this a strong pitch so I can move forward.
  33. [00:21:02] <TylerR> I just wish this internal blog we'll be starting up could get some outside exposure.
  34. [00:29:17] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13517 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2047) Exemples Groupés -
  35. [00:29:29] <TylerR> Anyway, I'm off till tomorrow. Take care everyone.
  36. [00:29:41] <tantek> take care
  37. [00:30:02] <TylerR> Thanks for your offer of support tantek. I'm very excited to help bring awareness to the company about this great community.
  38. [00:30:40] <TylerR> One of the talks I plan on doing is a "how to get involved" where I'll reiterate the Wiki content.
  39. [00:30:53] <TylerR> Anyway, cheers!
  40. [00:30:58] * TylerR (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) Quit ("Leaving")
  41. [00:31:03] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13518 * ChristopheDucamp * (+246) Exemples Groupés -
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  44. [00:40:43] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13519 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1757) Exemples Groupés -
  45. [00:42:14] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13520 * ChristopheDucamp * (-559) Exemples Critiqués -
  46. [00:43:35] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13521 * ChristopheDucamp * (+558) Exemples en UTF8 -
  47. [00:45:06] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13522 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Exemples Critiqués -
  48. [00:46:37] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13523 * ChristopheDucamp * (-322) Exemples Révisés -
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  54. [01:00:57] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13524 * ChristopheDucamp * (+453) Exemples -
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  57. [01:15:17] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13525 * ChristopheDucamp * (-735) Exemples Révisés - sync'd
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  70. [02:24:43] <mfbot> [[presentations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations&diff=0&oldid=13526 * Tantek * (+747) added Web Directions North Presentations
  71. [02:27:44] <mfbot> [[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13527 * Tantek * (+4)
  72. [02:37:59] <mfbot> [[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13528 * AidAdams * (+16) Attending -
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  74. [02:45:10] <mfbot> [[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13529 * Tantek * (+78)
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  83. [04:06:25] <mfbot> [[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13530 * JohnAllsopp * (+75) Blog Posts -
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  120. [09:48:34] <drewinthehead> hey DanWrong
  121. [09:48:58] <DanWrong> morning
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  123. [09:49:58] <drewinthehead> looks like we might be touching on Sumo in the .net podcast this week
  124. [09:50:18] <drewinthehead> anything you'd like expressed about it?
  125. [09:53:26] <DanWrong> that it's not quite finished yet....but that's cool drew, cheers.
  126. [09:53:47] <drewinthehead> cool
  127. [09:53:53] <DanWrong> Hopefully I have the test suite finished while at barcamp
  128. [09:55:09] <drewinthehead> great stuff. i'll be sure to point out that it's early days
  129. [09:55:13] <DanWrong> I need to do something about rel-tag and XFN too, Im not sure how to usefully represent those
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  135. [10:59:24] <mfbot> [[events-fr/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2&diff=0&oldid=13531 * ChristopheDucamp * (+45) Microformateurs parmi les participants - enthusiast to join
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  137. [11:01:35] <mfbot> [[events/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2&diff=0&oldid=13532 * ChristopheDucamp * (+45) Microformateers in attendance -
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  163. [14:02:55] <mfbot> [[process]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=process&diff=0&oldid=13533 * Phae * (-4) Why? - redirection to -new
  164. [14:03:16] <mfbot> [[process]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=process&diff=0&oldid=13534 * Phae * (-4) Why? -
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  173. [14:30:58] <DavidMead> Hi all, I've been reading Roger Costello's excellent tutorial in microformats but I still don't know where I can extract the geo-data for an address - Can someone point me in the right direction?
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  176. [14:36:50] <tom-morris> DavidMead: install Google Earth - you should be able to get the geographical coordinates quite easily using it.
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  179. [14:38:00] <DavidMead> cheers
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  194. [16:00:53] <Ru> hi - does someone have an email contact for Andy Mabbett?
  195. [16:06:22] <Ru> I was looking at the advocacy page http://microformats.org/wiki/advocacy#hCalendar - I'm a project manager at a similar site, online news publishing UK & Ireland - we have events listings, tv & radio listings i'm interested to talk to a microformats person..
  196. [16:06:23] <mfbot> [[digitalsignature-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digitalsignature-examples&diff=0&oldid=13535 * HenrichPoehls * (+199) Added link to "main" digital-signature page
  197. [16:07:13] <mfbot> [[digital-signatures]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digital-signatures&diff=0&oldid=13536 * HenrichPoehls * (+32) added Link to examples page
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  200. [16:12:54] <trovster> Ru: Join the mailing list, there are plenty of people active.
  201. [16:13:55] <trovster> Ah, I see why you want to contact him, coz he's contacted most of those sites
  202. [16:14:42] <Ru> trovster: yep, :) - not to worry I found his addy on a bird watching site
  203. [16:14:49] <Ru> tovster: thanks though!
  204. [16:19:35] * Ru (n=chatzill@217.78.9.66) has left #microformats
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  206. [16:25:08] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=13537 * MikeJohnson * (+2056) Service Publishing of Music -
  207. [16:27:35] * Ashe (n=Ashe@213.47.199.86) has joined #microformats
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  212. [16:53:13] <mkaply> Can tags have spaces in them?
  213. [16:53:16] <mkaply> is the tag for http://de.lirio.us/tags/commercial%20art
  214. [16:53:19] <mkaply> commercial art
  215. [17:00:44] <briansuda> i think so yes
  216. [17:00:57] <briansuda> sometimes you can do commercial+art
  217. [17:01:05] <briansuda> different services do different things
  218. [17:01:10] <briansuda> Flickr ignores spaces
  219. [17:02:48] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
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  222. [17:07:34] <mkaply> so does flickr want the + instead of the space?
  223. [17:08:06] <mkaply> ah. to flickr, space means multiple tags.
  224. [17:08:17] <mkaply> whereas blue+moon means the tag "blue moon"
  225. [17:08:19] * adactio (n=jeremy@host86-139-178-30.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  226. [17:08:22] <mkaply> nice
  227. [17:09:34] <TylerR> Morning.
  228. [17:09:36] <briansuda> i use tags on my own site, then on my tagspace i have links to flickr, del.icio.us, etc tagspaces, but i need to reformat my tags for them
  229. [17:14:08] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  230. [17:15:33] <mkaply> briansuda: you told me not to worry too much about <del> but you use it on your contact! :)
  231. [17:15:50] <briansuda> yeah, i think i did that as a use-case for myself
  232. [17:16:05] <briansuda> i don't think in real-life anyone really uses DEL or INS
  233. [17:16:24] <briansuda> infact i think they are dropped in HTML5 or XHTML2 in favour of the edit attribute
  234. [17:21:57] * epeus (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ac6f0a2a80e732d8) has joined #microformats
  235. [17:24:38] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  236. [17:25:30] <mfbot> [[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13538 * ScottFegette * (+15)
  237. [17:25:56] * jcw9 (n=jonathan@WILLIAMSJ01.ADMIN.ED.NYU.EDU) has joined #microformats
  238. [17:27:36] * mkaply is learning to hate Yahoo MAps
  239. [17:27:46] <mkaply> different APIs for old style vs. broadband
  240. [17:31:26] * danja_ (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  241. [17:31:44] <briansuda> apstraction
  242. [17:31:48] <briansuda> mapstraction
  243. [17:32:34] <mkaply> I just find it odd that a lot of these sites aren't designed for anyone else to interact with their data. Does yahoo not like third parties adding to their calendar? They've certainly made it painful enough.
  244. [17:32:44] <mkaply> (with a URL - they force you to use their APIs)
  245. [17:33:18] * mkaply takes solace in the fact that his add to yahoo calendar works better than upcoming.org
  246. [17:37:53] * aconbere|work (n=aconbere@mail.geonerco.com) has joined #microformats
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  250. [17:38:20] <mfbot> [[digitalsignature-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digitalsignature-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13539 * HenrichPoehls * (+1510) Getting Discussion started
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  264. [18:24:03] <mfbot> [[events-fr/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events-fr/2007-02-07-web-directions-north * ChristopheDucamp * (+2614) translation of events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north
  265. [18:25:54] <mfbot> [[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13540 * ChristopheDucamp * (+950)
  266. [18:26:25] <mfbot> [[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13541 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2) 2007 -
  267. [18:29:42] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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  269. [18:30:06] <mfbot> [[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13542 * ChristopheDucamp * (+139)
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  271. [18:35:19] <tantek> DavidMead - geo and adr are two separate things
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  279. [19:17:59] <mfbot> [[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13543 * Tantek * (+108) added another photo
  280. [19:23:50] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host81-152-176-171.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  281. [19:23:55] <JamieKnight> hiya,
  282. [19:31:25] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
  283. [19:34:29] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  284. [19:43:20] <JamieKnight> hiya JMulder
  285. [19:44:51] * briansuda (n=briansud@81-5-138-228.dsl.eclipse.net.uk) has joined #microformats
  286. [19:44:51] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  287. [19:44:56] <JamieKnight> hiya briansuda
  288. [19:45:18] * briansuda waves
  289. [19:45:29] * JamieKnight is excited
  290. [19:45:38] * JamieKnight has just finished a redesign of his site
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  292. [19:47:39] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
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  295. [19:48:01] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  296. [19:48:07] * Ronnos_ (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit (Client Quit)
  297. [19:48:11] <JamieKnight> hiya KevinMarks
  298. [19:48:21] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  299. [19:48:28] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  300. [19:48:37] <KevinMarks> hi
  301. [19:48:42] <JamieKnight> how are you?
  302. [19:48:49] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
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  304. [19:49:37] <KevinMarks> good, drinking from the Google information firehose
  305. [19:49:45] <JamieKnight> kew,
  306. [19:49:46] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-3ed204c638806aa1) has joined #microformats
  307. [19:49:55] <JamieKnight> sounds,um netrutions,
  308. [19:49:58] <JamieKnight> hiya km
  309. [19:50:02] <JamieKnight> mkaply:
  310. [19:54:15] <mkaply> hey
  311. [19:54:25] <JamieKnight> how are things going?
  312. [19:54:49] * JamieKnight is happy, he has got the new version of his site out of the door at last
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  319. [20:30:51] <TylerR> Hey there KevinMarks.
  320. [20:31:07] <TylerR> Congratulations on your new job.
  321. [20:31:11] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-255-214.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  322. [20:34:37] <TylerR> Looks like I've got myself a presentation for next Friday on accessibility. Any suggestions on how I can hook Microformats into the talk?
  323. [20:34:57] <JamieKnight> um,
  324. [20:35:03] <JamieKnight> hCard aware screen readers,
  325. [20:35:24] <JamieKnight> could for exmaple change the way they said adresses to how adresses are normall said,
  326. [20:35:34] <JamieKnight> sematics
  327. [20:35:51] <TylerR> Naturally.
  328. [20:35:59] * briansuda (n=briansud@81-5-138-228.dsl.eclipse.net.uk) has joined #microformats
  329. [20:35:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  330. [20:36:05] <JamieKnight> cant reallu think of any
  331. [20:36:10] * TylerR nods.
  332. [20:36:10] <JamieKnight> *really
  333. [20:36:11] <JamieKnight> rather
  334. [20:36:33] <TylerR> I basically want to keep it to around 10 slides or so, 20 minutes long.
  335. [20:36:41] <JamieKnight> hmmm,
  336. [20:36:41] <KevinMarks> accessibility is correlated with semantic html
  337. [20:36:56] <JamieKnight> how much do they allredy know?
  338. [20:37:17] <TylerR> Not a lot JamieKnight. These are mostly SharePoint and internal MS tool developers.
  339. [20:37:17] <JamieKnight> are you talking o people who allredy understand why xhtml CSS ect, or are the still liking table for layout?
  340. [20:37:19] * TylerR smiles.
  341. [20:37:29] <KevinMarks> look at pilgrim's http://diveintoaccessibility.org/
  342. [20:37:49] <JamieKnight> well, maybe you need to start by tailing them through why the web needs to be accsessible
  343. [20:38:03] <TylerR> Beautiful KevinMarks. Thank you. I know enough about accessibility to get a presentation up and running, I'm just looking for interesting tidbits that I may not be aware of.
  344. [20:38:32] * TylerR nods. I plan on covering the why right off the bat.
  345. [20:39:09] <TylerR> No one needs to hear a life story about accessibility, they need to know why it's good, why it's important, and why we need to know about it.
  346. [20:39:29] <TylerR> "we" being the collective company.
  347. [20:39:43] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  348. [20:40:12] <TylerR> As an MS vendor company, my upcoming talks and discussions are definitely going to be interesting.
  349. [20:40:28] <TylerR> I find it's going to be a wonderful opportunity to evangelize.
  350. [20:40:59] <TylerR> This is an excellent resource. Thank you KevinMarks.
  351. [20:41:10] <JamieKnight> hmmm, MS + standards and accessebility are very uncoprative
  352. [20:41:26] <TylerR> They
  353. [20:41:34] <TylerR> *they're making good strides.
  354. [20:41:51] <JamieKnight> they could have done alot more though,
  355. [20:41:59] <JamieKnight> they definitly have the resorces,
  356. [20:42:51] * danja_ (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  357. [20:42:52] <TylerR> As one of their top partners though, I feel compelled to educate our company as well as our clients about not only the technology benefits of standards-based design, but the monetary as well.
  358. [20:43:10] <JamieKnight> cheaper to redesign,
  359. [20:43:14] <JamieKnight> wont get sued ;)
  360. [20:43:26] <JamieKnight> ect, ect
  361. [20:43:28] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) has joined #microformats
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  363. [20:45:51] * OpenStandards (n=vir@ACCE995D.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  364. [20:47:31] * briansuda (n=briansud@81-5-138-228.dsl.eclipse.net.uk) Quit ()
  365. [20:47:37] <TylerR> Not a lot of people here understand the potential of a site utilizing the power of XFN as an example. For instance, if XFN was injected into Live Spaces, MS would have powerful relationship data invaluable to marketing, internal analysts, etc.
  366. [20:47:59] <TylerR> Let alone the power that a properly semantic table and form have.
  367. [20:48:01] * TylerR smiles/.
  368. [20:50:03] <TylerR> Companies that used XFN internally could use it as a measure of quality of life among employees, seeing if people are getting to know others outside their immediate circles and teams.
  369. [20:50:23] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
  370. [20:50:26] <TylerR> That's where I'm going to be focusing on first really, getting uf implemented internally.
  371. [20:50:28] * bewest knows everyone in my company
  372. [20:50:29] <JamieKnight> TylerR: i supose,
  373. [20:50:50] * JamieKnight knows evrye*one* else in the company he workds for
  374. [20:50:52] <TylerR> bewest: Lucky for you. I have 300+ people to remember. hehe
  375. [20:50:59] * bewest has heard that most business is small business :-)
  376. [20:51:12] <JamieKnight> TylerR: how about having a hCard formatted central contact info intranet site?
  377. [20:51:28] <JamieKnight> a little like backnet maybe?
  378. [20:51:49] <TylerR> JamieKnight: That's the other focus point. I'm going to be working with our intranet folks in implementing hCard into the company contact page.
  379. [20:51:56] <JamieKnight> so, a work social site. in a way, for sharing photos and resorces across the company
  380. [20:52:11] <TylerR> Ah we already have something of that nature.
  381. [20:52:11] <JamieKnight> what company do you work for again
  382. [20:52:16] <TylerR> Ascentium.
  383. [20:52:20] <JamieKnight> kewl,
  384. [20:52:27] * TylerR nods. We're a fun bunch.
  385. [20:52:47] * JamieKnight wonders if he can have some poeople onpinion on his site redesing
  386. [20:52:54] <TylerR> I'd like to talk with Steve Ganz when he's around next time and find out how he went about implementing hResume, or at least the initial phases.
  387. [20:53:02] <JamieKnight> Aims were, redability, and simplicity.
  388. [20:53:31] <JamieKnight> how about having user tagging of company page on the intranet?
  389. [20:54:16] <TylerR> I need to start small. I've only been here about 8-1/2 months, plenty of time to make change. :)
  390. [20:55:01] <JamieKnight> i am glad of one thing, at pentangle i dont need to worry about office politics.
  391. [20:55:10] * dzach (n=dzach@ppp075-067.dsl.hol.gr) has joined #microformats
  392. [20:55:55] <TylerR> We don't really have much in the way of that. We're a very flat company.
  393. [20:56:40] <JamieKnight> then why does only being there mean you cant impliment things? (i dont understand hesne i am aksing, please do not think i being rude, i have never come across sothing like this and would liek to understand!)
  394. [20:57:46] <TylerR> It's a bit more complicated than just going into the intranet and building something. We have clearly defined roles and accountability within the company.
  395. [20:58:01] <TylerR> It gets like that when you get to the size we are.
  396. [20:58:23] <JamieKnight> seems complicated.
  397. [20:58:36] <JamieKnight> at pentangle if we see somthing as kewl we impliment it,
  398. [20:58:39] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  399. [20:58:52] <JamieKnight> but, i supose i am in the poistion where my role is not relly very defined.
  400. [20:59:04] <TylerR> It always is with a larger company.
  401. [20:59:16] * JamieKnight is a "geek" offically
  402. [20:59:59] <TylerR> Ah, see, we hire for specific job roles. We have a clearly defined structure in place.
  403. [21:00:29] <TylerR> So while switching roles within the company isn't impossible, it isn't as easy as suggesting something then instantly taking on that role.
  404. [21:00:34] <JamieKnight> i got my job because i walked in one day and asked for it.....
  405. [21:00:46] <JamieKnight> hmmm, i think i prefer small companies,
  406. [21:01:12] <JamieKnight> I like working with alun because he understands, and with what has been going on in the last 10 months he has been suportive and given me work when he can
  407. [21:02:59] * TylerR nods. Smaller companies can be rather fun.
  408. [21:03:34] <JamieKnight> i think i would decribe them as more pokey,
  409. [21:03:38] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  410. [21:03:47] <JamieKnight> you for exmaple, can have a company evil mokey
  411. [21:03:52] <JamieKnight> *monkey rather
  412. [21:05:02] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  413. [21:05:02] <TylerR> I'm sort of the monkey right now. I'm pretty new. I do a lot of the more tedious tasks. That's why I'm taking on this role as a sort of evangelist for standards and uf.
  414. [21:05:27] <JamieKnight> kewl,
  415. [21:05:32] <TylerR> If I prove myself apt at this stuff in the next year, I could find myself in a much more responsible and interesting position.
  416. [21:05:44] <JamieKnight> i just do what i can, and learn stuff
  417. [21:06:02] <JamieKnight> i like the fact that i get asked to look at things then left to get obbsessed with them.
  418. [21:06:31] <JamieKnight> there is no "you will do this now because i told you to" i get asked about things. which at 17 is very strange to be treated as a equal.
  419. [21:06:38] * danja (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  420. [21:06:41] <JamieKnight> even more stranger when people alos know you autistic,
  421. [21:06:42] <TylerR> It's not really about gaining a better position in the company, it's gaining the ability (and permission) to share what I'm passionate about, and educating others. Right now I'm just a web developer that does work for the site managers, who report to project managers, who work with engagement managers, who...
  422. [21:07:03] <JamieKnight> then alot of people think you are insane,
  423. [21:07:08] <TylerR> I'd like to be someone that all of those positions come to.
  424. [21:07:20] <JamieKnight> that sounds intresting,
  425. [21:07:43] <TylerR> It's going to be an interesting journey for sure.
  426. [21:08:11] <JamieKnight> yeah,
  427. [21:08:15] <TylerR> But I feel I can sell myself as a powerful and valuable asset to the company. I love the company, I want to see it prosper, I feel what I'll be providing will do nothing but benefit them.
  428. [21:08:35] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@CPE0050181121d5-CM0012254493da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
  429. [21:08:38] <JamieKnight> i have never really thoughof it that way,
  430. [21:08:47] <JamieKnight> i have always seen my job as a way of doing what i love,
  431. [21:08:52] <TylerR> I don't look at being an MS vendor as a curse working with people who don't follow the rest of the web on standards and such, I see everything as opportunity.
  432. [21:08:54] <JamieKnight> and, making it useful to people,
  433. [21:09:08] <TylerR> That's how I thought when I first started working.
  434. [21:09:14] <JamieKnight> being an MS vendor is not that bad,
  435. [21:09:34] <JamieKnight> as long as you dont try preaching the offical microsoft line at people
  436. [21:09:38] <TylerR> I was passionate about a couple things when I left college, beautiful code and happy clients.
  437. [21:09:49] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  438. [21:10:09] <TylerR> Now I'm passionate about helping the company be everything they don't know they can be. :)
  439. [21:10:17] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-50431637aca261e7) has joined #microformats
  440. [21:10:19] <JamieKnight> "linux is not a viable server Os" is what i am reffering to, i have known a few people who were microsoft reseller tried telling me.
  441. [21:10:32] <JamieKnight> because that was the offical microsoft line
  442. [21:10:38] <JamieKnight> (and i think i still is)
  443. [21:11:02] <TylerR> Our company sells, develops, consults, and maintains MS solutions, we have to believe in that official line. :)
  444. [21:11:36] <JamieKnight> dosent it bother you?
  445. [21:11:56] <TylerR> Not at all. It's about selling a solution to someone to alleviate a problem.
  446. [21:11:57] <JamieKnight> I wouldent be able to work in an enviroment where i was "fourced" to sell somthing which was not the best?
  447. [21:12:14] <TylerR> Ah you see, when something is not the best, what do you do?
  448. [21:12:16] <JamieKnight> if i was selling a solution, and i knew there was a better one, i would sell them that
  449. [21:12:29] <JamieKnight> get the best, or write one that is better
  450. [21:12:52] <JamieKnight> for example, i am never going to tell a client they need to pay for microfsoft webfacing servers,
  451. [21:12:54] <TylerR> I see it as, if it's not the best, work towards making it the best. See the potential in the pitfalls.
  452. [21:13:15] <JamieKnight> but with the microsoft attitude, the pits fuls will not change,
  453. [21:13:34] <TylerR> That's why I work for a vendor. We do customized MS solutions.
  454. [21:13:36] * TylerR smiles.
  455. [21:13:44] <TylerR> We can make those changes that help.
  456. [21:13:47] <JamieKnight> hmmm,
  457. [21:13:56] <JamieKnight> i would still find it difficult,
  458. [21:14:05] <JamieKnight> are you making the slide in S5 or powerpoint for example?
  459. [21:14:48] <TylerR> PowerPoint, only because I don't have access to Keynote at work, and the presentation will be on a Windows laptop.
  460. [21:14:57] <JamieKnight> use S5
  461. [21:15:06] <JamieKnight> then you can place it on the intranet for other easier,
  462. [21:15:08] <TylerR> I don't mind myself.
  463. [21:15:20] <JamieKnight> or, on the wiki for other people in your position to use,
  464. [21:15:49] <TylerR> It's just a piece of software that gets a message across. It won't be tagged up, made live to external people, or anything else really.
  465. [21:15:59] <JamieKnight> thats not the point,
  466. [21:16:07] <JamieKnight> have you used S5 before,
  467. [21:16:12] <JamieKnight> imagine at the end saying,
  468. [21:16:31] <JamieKnight> "this slide show was built using accsessible techinoliges from the internet"
  469. [21:16:40] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
  470. [21:16:42] * TylerR chuckles.
  471. [21:17:08] <JamieKnight> you could disable styles and show them how, a webpage can e alot more than a webpage, and how hoe the internet and the web are different
  472. [21:18:17] <JamieKnight> would make the talk memorable if done in a "staey" way
  473. [21:19:17] <TylerR> Understandable. It's a touchy subject though. Imagine the MS Zune team demonstrating music output via an iPod. Working for a close MS partner company, it's expected you use their technology.
  474. [21:19:33] <TylerR> Dogfood is the term.
  475. [21:20:09] <JamieKnight> but why?
  476. [21:20:43] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  477. [21:20:47] <JamieKnight> S5 is to do with the theme of the presentation? thats the sort of thing that i meant when i sai di wouldent be able to work for a company like that. because i can see how it slows down development.
  478. [21:21:12] <TylerR> I would read this article on Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_one%27s_own_dog_food
  479. [21:21:26] <JamieKnight> for example, in S5 you can very very put it online,
  480. [21:21:50] <JamieKnight> imagine all those time techer ect have been asked to put somthing onto a school website but they havent because they were convinced it was hard.
  481. [21:21:52] <TylerR> Also this
  482. [21:21:53] <TylerR> http://www.panopticoncentral.net/archive/2004/12/10/2828.aspx
  483. [21:22:07] <JamieKnight> because they were using the technology they were being fourced to use. It wrong.
  484. [21:23:21] <JamieKnight> dogfooding hold back a the technology evolution though.
  485. [21:23:38] <TylerR> Now, I can work with my company and MS to implement uf because it isn't in competition with MS, it promotes community, and it enhances their products. Same with the general concepts of semantics, standards, and accessibility. Everyone benefits.
  486. [21:24:06] <JamieKnight> fine, they why not push to develope a MS product which acts a a GUI for S5
  487. [21:24:31] <JamieKnight> take S5 to you mangers (the oxox version for some micrformat goodness of course) and say look at this.
  488. [21:24:46] <JamieKnight> lets develope somthing we can give to clients who want it to go online that works, and is simple.
  489. [21:25:32] <JamieKnight> rather than give them somthing which "works(ish" give them what they need,
  490. [21:25:37] <TylerR> It's hard to explain JamieKnight. It's a completely different culture than smaller companies who have the ability to change on the fly.
  491. [21:25:56] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-152-250-163.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  492. [21:25:57] <JamieKnight> TylerR: i dont relly care about the culture, its for me about morels.
  493. [21:26:10] <JamieKnight> surely, selling somone other than the best, is liing to them and misleading them.
  494. [21:26:20] * dzach (n=dzach@ppp075-067.dsl.hol.gr) has left #microformats
  495. [21:26:54] <JamieKnight> doing a presenation in an old, and propiroty software when you are talking about standards seem hypocritical, at least, and iif i was listining i would feel confused.
  496. [21:27:21] <JamieKnight> do you understand my point? why follow the "culture" if you want to inovate then inovate.
  497. [21:28:15] <JamieKnight> sorry if i seem like i am ranting, i just find it frustrating when people "are fourced" to do somthing which is wrong.
  498. [21:28:22] <TylerR> What's "best" is what the company believes is best. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Microsoft and their vendors believe MS is the best solution. JetBlue believe they're the best airline. GM believe they make the best trucks. Everyone aims to have faith in the things they are passionate about and work towards.
  499. [21:28:39] <JamieKnight> TylerR: so, do you have faith in standards?
  500. [21:28:47] <JamieKnight> are you passonate towards standards
  501. [21:29:03] <JamieKnight> if so, then use them when they are suitible and avalible.
  502. [21:29:56] <JamieKnight> the very reason you have just given mean, could be the very reaosn somone in the company wouldent come to you for microformats. because "IE7 the best broswer in the world" doesent support them?
  503. [21:30:00] <JamieKnight> see my poiny?
  504. [21:30:04] <JamieKnight> *point rather.
  505. [21:30:07] <TylerR> Yes, and that is why I work for a company that promotes MS products. It gives me the widest audience in the world to promote and advocate the adoption of standards-based design, microformats, and other innovative and upcoming concepts and technologies.
  506. [21:30:21] <JamieKnight> then promote them in all you do.
  507. [21:30:26] <JamieKnight> push them.
  508. [21:30:33] * TylerR sighs.
  509. [21:30:46] <JamieKnight> is there a rule saying that you must use powerpoint for your presentation,
  510. [21:30:59] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.9/0000000000]")
  511. [21:31:02] <JamieKnight> earlier you mentioned you would do it on keynote but that was unavalible?
  512. [21:31:14] <JamieKnight> so, please expain the difference?
  513. [21:31:22] <TylerR> It's not about fighting the man in every aspect, else I would be fired in a week. It's about working with what you have, enhancing the experience, and slowly working towards finding a solid balance of your passions and their culture.
  514. [21:31:40] <JamieKnight> i am ot fighting,
  515. [21:31:51] <JamieKnight> i am trying to get somone who is advocating to "advocate"
  516. [21:32:08] <JamieKnight> (that wasent meant rudly by the way, lack of a better way to describe it)
  517. [21:32:29] <JamieKnight> why not use the technologies which you are talking about to make you talk.
  518. [21:32:39] <TylerR> I understand your stance. It's simply a delicate matter when your company sells and promotes MS products to use something other than an MS product to present something.
  519. [21:32:40] <JamieKnight> you could make a popwerpoint version of it later,
  520. [21:32:43] <TylerR> Simple as that.
  521. [21:32:55] <JamieKnight> but thats not logical or simple.
  522. [21:33:10] <TylerR> It would be if you worked in this environment, believe me. :)
  523. [21:33:31] <JamieKnight> i personally find it infruiting that "compaines" are essentully holding evryhting back.
  524. [21:34:05] <JamieKnight> TylerR: think of web standards as a "software writer free" product
  525. [21:34:17] <JamieKnight> they use HTML on thier website, due to the fact the have to,
  526. [21:34:44] <JamieKnight> they dont see it as "another personson product" they (hopfully) see it as the Right thing for the job.
  527. [21:34:58] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-50431637aca261e7) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  528. [21:35:14] <JamieKnight> for, a basic slideshow, on accsessibility, that you will want avlible to people S5 is your best bet,
  529. [21:35:25] <JamieKnight> why not talk to a manager about it if that is what you must do.
  530. [21:36:16] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13544 * SMulcahy * (+295) Ronnos -
  531. [21:37:32] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13545 * SMulcahy * (+18) Ronnos -
  532. [21:37:52] <TylerR> I find it frustrating as well JamieKnight. I'm just not in a position to pick up a pitchfork and torch. I have to introduce new ideas and concepts slowly. We're talking stubborn, well-established, slow-moving behemoths companies here. Revolutions can happen on a smaller scale, or when the board of directors chooses to take the company in a new direction, but a web developer that works for a vendor of a company simply can't get the backing
  533. [21:38:38] <JamieKnight> TylerR: surly, doing somthing you have been asked to do, they way you see best is the Best for the company
  534. [21:38:47] <JamieKnight> your doing ti because they have dicided you are the best for it.
  535. [21:38:58] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13546 * SMulcahy * (+2) sorry, some formatting issues
  536. [21:39:10] <TylerR> I have to develop credability, a following, successful implementations and happy clients. I'm passionate first about my companies success, second about my clients success, and third about my own passions.
  537. [21:39:10] <JamieKnight> thus, if you do your best, and do it The best ,ost suitible way then it sends a messag eof you knowlage and confidence
  538. [21:39:34] <JamieKnight> develope credability by being bold
  539. [21:39:50] <JamieKnight> when asked "why did you not use a M$ product for this" tell them why
  540. [21:40:09] <JamieKnight> explain why, and explain that you would love to se a "quality MS product built on this technology"
  541. [21:40:10] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  542. [21:42:06] <TylerR> JamieKnight, I work for a company that sells MS solutions. It's a simple matter of working within reasonable bounds. I don't mind using PowerPoint when the message I'm getting across doesn't depend on the technology that I use. I'm done debating this, I don't want all of today's logs to be clogged with standards debate.
  543. [21:42:09] * TylerR chuckles.
  544. [21:42:38] <JamieKnight> okay,
  545. [21:43:03] <JamieKnight> maybe i should just put this into a "jamie dosent understand and corperate logic folder"
  546. [21:43:23] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]")
  547. [21:43:30] <JamieKnight> thanks for trying to explain, as i said its the first time i have come across this sort of thing. I hope i am never in a position where i have to do somthing like that.
  548. [21:43:40] <JamieKnight> I wish you the best of luck with the presentation
  549. [21:43:45] <TylerR> That's about the best way to handle this sort of thing. Just file it under that category and you're golden.
  550. [21:43:45] <TylerR> :)
  551. [21:44:24] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13547 * SMulcahy * (+610) Stephen Mulcahy -
  552. [21:44:49] <JamieKnight> as a side note, being autistic, i often find things like that difficult to understand because it doesent make any sense. thanks for the patience to try and explain
  553. [21:44:53] <TylerR> Working in the corporate realm is very much different than working with these wonderfully dynamic newer companies for sure. :)
  554. [21:45:14] <TylerR> Sure thing JamieKnight. I really don't mind trying to understand things at all. It gives me a chance to stretch my brain.
  555. [21:45:29] <JamieKnight> TylerR: when i did my work experince, i did it at a a collage,
  556. [21:45:32] <TylerR> I absolutely love the culture of smaller web start-ups and such.
  557. [21:46:10] <TylerR> I also love the corporate culture, because it gives me a challenge. :)
  558. [21:46:17] <JamieKnight> and, i got very very angery and upset, when i was given a flat PDF of of some content for thier site which i was helping them to update.
  559. [21:46:21] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  560. [21:46:55] <JamieKnight> i got upset, because i had to retype it all, and i didnt mind the typing, it was the fact of how ineffcient it was, and how i can see things like that slowing down evolution of techonologies ect.
  561. [21:47:33] <TylerR> Ah yeah. It's how the cards fall sometimes.
  562. [21:48:27] <JamieKnight> the things that infruated me, was that the person who had made the PDF had the word document.. its just the person who normally did the job i was doing liked wasting time retyping things because she could talk.
  563. [21:48:50] <JamieKnight> they told me that. the person who normally did that job was wasting time, the whole room knew yet no one cared.
  564. [21:49:02] <JamieKnight> i find that hard ot understand.
  565. [21:49:40] <TylerR> Clients and supervisors/managers always have interesting demands. ;)
  566. [21:50:19] <JamieKnight> its one of the reason i like my job,
  567. [21:50:34] * danja (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  568. [21:50:36] <JamieKnight> i work flexable hours, (when i want to) i get choice in what i do, and i get to learn.
  569. [21:50:55] <TylerR> Very nice.
  570. [21:50:57] <JamieKnight> I am lucky that alun understands the sort of things i am good at and what i would find hard
  571. [21:51:13] <JamieKnight> (i am never put anywhere near clients..... i would likley scare them off)
  572. [21:52:04] <JamieKnight> TylerR: would you give me your opinion on the new version of my site?
  573. [21:52:10] <JamieKnight> http://jkg3.com
  574. [21:52:23] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-152-250-163.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  575. [21:53:03] <TylerR> Straightforward, simple, clean. Good work. :)
  576. [21:53:10] <JamieKnight> thanks,
  577. [21:53:29] <JamieKnight> do you have any suggestions? i am trying to ask as many people who i know are good as possible,
  578. [21:53:56] <TylerR> I might later tonight. I'm at work and need to focus on some stuff.
  579. [21:54:08] <JamieKnight> ah, okay sorry
  580. [21:54:12] <JamieKnight> have a good day,
  581. [21:54:14] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13548 * SMulcahy * (+517) a start at some hProductNotebook characteristics
  582. [21:54:46] <TylerR> No worries. I'll be around, just can't go off on a tirade of talk like earlier. ;)
  583. [21:55:03] <JamieKnight> sorry,
  584. [21:55:28] <JamieKnight> i get frustrated when i see "thing which annoy me" and i try to try and make people do the "right" thing.
  585. [21:56:21] <JamieKnight> i really should sort out this 404 page thinking of it.
  586. [21:56:24] <JamieKnight> see you later,
  587. [21:56:58] <TylerR> Sure thing, take care.
  588. [21:59:20] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
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  590. [22:01:31] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit (Client Quit)
  591. [22:09:21] <csarven> http://blogxoxo.blogspot.com/ -- a little red
  592. [22:09:49] <JamieKnight> hiya csarven
  593. [22:10:25] <csarven> ahoy ahoy
  594. [22:10:46] <JamieKnight> how be you?
  595. [22:11:24] <JamieKnight> hmmm, has anone spoke to them about usibility?
  596. [22:11:29] <JamieKnight> anyone rather
  597. [22:11:43] * JamieKnight wonder if the are a developer Far more than a designer.
  598. [22:15:00] * danja (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  599. [22:15:08] * danja (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  608. [23:06:07] * pnhChris gets KevinMarks' computer a cup of coffee
  609. [23:06:44] <badd> lol.
  610. [23:07:47] <KevinMarks> i could do with one myself
  611. [23:08:52] <TylerR> How's the new office KevinMarks?
  612. [23:11:56] * briansuda (n=briansud@81-5-138-228.dsl.eclipse.net.uk) has joined #microformats
  613. [23:11:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  614. [23:11:58] <csarven> is it just me or xoxo is confusing?
  615. [23:12:09] * anselxyz (n=chatzill@DNab423c8f.Stanford.EDU) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  616. [23:12:35] <csarven> i couldn't find a precise definition as to what it really does or what to do with it.
  617. [23:13:22] <tantek> csarven, perhaps you are thinking too hard about it?
  618. [23:13:28] <csarven> perhaps :)
  619. [23:13:39] <tantek> it's just lists and outlines, with optional arbitrary sets of properties
  620. [23:13:40] <kingryan> csarven: it's like xml that you can render in a browser
  621. [23:13:42] <bewest> yes
  622. [23:13:44] <tantek> on items
  623. [23:13:49] <bewest> many people have that problem
  624. [23:13:56] <tantek> thinking too hard?
  625. [23:14:01] <bewest> about xoxo
  626. [23:14:32] <csarven> any relation to an XHTML document with modules?
  627. [23:14:48] <tantek> it's a foil/strawman against the simplistic (and flawed) methodology that one needs a new XML format for all any new chunk of data
  628. [23:15:01] <tantek> that's really what it is
  629. [23:15:36] <csarven> is there some server-side scripting involved in this to make use or manipulate this xoxo information?
  630. [23:15:56] <tantek> it's just a format for a list or an outline
  631. [23:16:04] <tantek> what you do with lists and outlines is up to the application
  632. [23:16:25] <JamieKnight> so, like automatic site maps?
  633. [23:16:34] <iand> csarven, we're using xoxo as an HTML view of list-like data
  634. [23:17:37] <csarven> i think i see.. so if there is some information that doesn't belong to a microformat you can mark it with xoxo and have the application treat that in whatever way it needs to?
  635. [23:17:38] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1128675444.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #microformats
  636. [23:17:56] * csarven is trying to think less
  637. [23:18:11] <iand> we have an xml format for this data, but we want a human readable version in HTML too. adding xoxo is a low cost way of structuring that data so it can be easily parsed from the HTML
  638. [23:18:54] <iand> also, we can reuse css that other people have worked on for laying out xoxo compatible lists
  639. [23:19:22] <iand> nobody has written css for our custom xml format :)
  640. [23:19:54] <iand> ( see http://api.talis.com/bf/stores/ukbib/services/facet?query=feynman&fields=title%2Csubject&top=10&output=html )
  641. [23:21:02] * iand wonders if any xoxo gurus have time to give that a once-over for correctness
  642. [23:22:37] <bewest> http://xoxotools.ning.com/xoxovalid.php
  643. [23:23:11] <iand> cool tool
  644. [23:23:22] <iand> and "Valid XOXO data found!" :D
  645. [23:23:22] <tantek> iand - perhaps add it to the Examples in the Wild section so that it is more easily ambiently discoverable for once-overing ;)
  646. [23:23:39] <tantek> and bewest, same thing with that and the Implementations section respectively
  647. [23:23:49] <iand> will do
  648. [23:24:58] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) has joined #microformats
  649. [23:25:22] <iand> tantek, that section on the xoxo page has no examples and this text: Too numerous to document thoroughly.
  650. [23:25:39] <tantek> alright, then let's start adding some
  651. [23:25:52] <tantek> and when they get too numerous we'll make a separate page out of them
  652. [23:26:03] * tantek thinks he added that text originally.
  653. [23:26:35] <iand> cool. i'll add the url above as a start - just didn't want people to think i'm self promoting
  654. [23:26:47] * mbradley (n=chatzill@dasasob.nokia.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  655. [23:29:38] <TylerR> Hey tantek, how's the day going?
  656. [23:30:02] <JamieKnight> any articles anywhere about how to impliment it?
  657. [23:31:45] <mfbot> [[xoxo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=0&oldid=13549 * IanDavis * (+239) Examples in the Wild -
  658. [23:33:54] <kingryan> JamieKnight: are you asking how to implement xoxo?
  659. [23:34:00] <JamieKnight> yeah,
  660. [23:34:05] <JamieKnight> is there a guide anywhere?
  661. [23:34:09] <kingryan> it's simple, <ol> + <ul> + <dl>
  662. [23:34:12] <JamieKnight> it sounds intresting,
  663. [23:34:26] <KevinMarks> it's like JSON, but in html
  664. [23:34:30] <JamieKnight> kingryan: can you be a little more specific?
  665. [23:34:34] <KevinMarks> and with some special rules for urls
  666. [23:34:42] <kingryan> KevinMarks has a great point
  667. [23:34:49] <KevinMarks> [] -> <ol>
  668. [23:34:52] <JamieKnight> i will go check out the wiki,
  669. [23:34:54] <tantek> TylerR, the earth appears to be rotating within known parameters.
  670. [23:34:56] <KevinMarks> {} -> <dl>
  671. [23:34:57] <kingryan> you can serialize/unserialize data structures that json does in xoxo
  672. [23:34:58] <JamieKnight> do some experimenting,
  673. [23:35:14] * KevinMarks should do JSON to XOXO
  674. [23:35:23] <kingryan> and xoxo to json
  675. [23:35:30] <KevinMarks> xoxo.py pretty much does so, as python structs are close to JSON
  676. [23:35:32] <TylerR> Then I'd have to say the day is looking rather splendid tantek, good to hear!
  677. [23:35:46] <kingryan> KevinMarks: you just gotta get the right syntax produced
  678. [23:36:47] <KevinMarks> well, in python it's just simplejson.py + xoxo.py
  679. [23:36:58] <KevinMarks> PHP may be harder
  680. [23:37:10] <KevinMarks> and I'm sure you can do it in a few lines of ruby
  681. [23:37:15] <kingryan> KevinMarks: make it a webservice, then you've added another pipe to the web
  682. [23:37:29] <KevinMarks> oh, good idea
  683. [23:37:37] <KevinMarks> RSS n'est pas une pipe
  684. [23:37:44] <KevinMarks> RSS is more like tar
  685. [23:37:56] <bewest> <3 RESTful pipes
  686. [23:38:33] <KevinMarks> I'd blog about that but I'll just get a load of Google vs Yahoo noise
  687. [23:38:38] <tantek> http://pipes.yahoo.com/search?q=Magritte&x=0&y=0 = "Browse Pipes: Pipes Search: Magritte Doh! We couldn't find any Pipes matching that. Sorry about that."
  688. [23:38:46] <tantek> figures.
  689. [23:39:27] <kingryan> anyone here from ma.gnolia?
  690. [23:39:28] * JamieKnight is completely lost but can appciate what is going on. (he thinks)
  691. [23:39:43] <KevinMarks> it's their party tonight ryan
  692. [23:39:48] <kingryan> JamieKnight: are you familar with json?
  693. [23:39:51] <KevinMarks> they're probably out buying drink
  694. [23:39:55] <JamieKnight> not relly,
  695. [23:40:04] <kingryan> how about javascript?
  696. [23:40:06] <JamieKnight> i know its javascrip and a way of transferring data,
  697. [23:40:13] <JamieKnight> I am familier with javascript,
  698. [23:40:20] <kingryan> right
  699. [23:40:24] <kingryan> so a possible json file is:
  700. [23:40:44] <kingryan> [1, 'foo', {'bar' : 'baz'}]
  701. [23:40:57] <JamieKnight> what would that mean?
  702. [23:41:05] <kingryan> that's just an array with an int, string and nest dictionary
  703. [23:41:17] <JamieKnight> um....
  704. [23:41:18] <kingryan> JamieKnight: it means whatever your application does with it
  705. [23:41:24] <kingryan> nested*
  706. [23:41:43] <JamieKnight> okay, i need to brush up on my js......
  707. [23:42:02] <kingryan> well, anyway you can do the above in xoxo as:
  708. [23:42:46] <kingryan> <ol><li>1</li><li>foo</li><li><dl><dt>bar</dt><dd>baz</dd></dl></li></ol>
  709. [23:42:49] <kingryan> :D
  710. [23:43:02] <kingryan> verbose, I know, but you can render it in your browser :D
  711. [23:43:03] <JamieKnight> so, it uses Xhtml to represte varibles?
  712. [23:43:23] <kingryan> yes and simple data structures like lists and dictionaries/hashes
  713. [23:43:29] <kingryan> but you can do other things with it, too
  714. [23:43:31] <JamieKnight> okay,
  715. [23:43:49] <JamieKnight> so it defines a way to store data in human and machinereadbale format,
  716. [23:44:01] <JamieKnight> human in the browser, and convertable to json for machines?
  717. [23:45:00] <kingryan> converatible to json, python lists+dictionaries, ruby arrays+hashes, php arrays and so on
  718. [23:45:08] <JamieKnight> yeah,
  719. [23:45:21] <JamieKnight> so, you could also get the data and convert it to XHMTL pages?
  720. [23:45:53] <JamieKnight> are there any book which cover this on amazon?
  721. [23:45:58] <iand> is it possible to go from xoxo to json?
  722. [23:46:08] <kingryan> iand: yes
  723. [23:46:16] <JamieKnight> you could use XLST
  724. [23:46:19] <iand> what would the equiv. of <ul> be?
  725. [23:46:27] <JamieKnight> array?
  726. [23:46:30] <KevinMarks> well, that gets lossy
  727. [23:46:35] <iand> sure
  728. [23:46:36] <JamieKnight> multidimensual?
  729. [23:46:39] <KevinMarks> it becomes a list
  730. [23:46:46] * JamieKnight is talking out of his bum bt
  731. [23:46:47] <KevinMarks> in python it should in theory be a set
  732. [23:46:56] <iand> <ol> maps directly to []
  733. [23:47:11] <KevinMarks> but in practice reordering people's lists bothers them
  734. [23:47:28] <kingryan> even ul's
  735. [23:47:49] <KevinMarks> xoxo may transform dl order
  736. [23:47:54] * JamieKnight tends to find himself clining to his list, he has a list for everything
  737. [23:47:57] <KevinMarks> if taken via python and bacl
  738. [23:48:00] <tantek> dl has no order
  739. [23:48:00] <KevinMarks> back
  740. [23:48:10] <tantek> dl is semantically unordered
  741. [23:48:15] <JamieKnight> can logical order be imposed on DL
  742. [23:48:26] <KevinMarks> it has no semantic order but it has lexical order
  743. [23:48:35] <iand> yeah, i agree dl is a bag of name/value not a list
  744. [23:48:51] <KevinMarks> btu round-tripping through a true dictionary will not preserve that
  745. [23:48:52] <tantek> and KevinMarks, its lexical order matters about as much as the excess whitespace, which is to say, not at all.
  746. [23:49:05] <JamieKnight> IE: in a p if it is a dictonary then it is what is in the order it is written.
  747. [23:49:07] <KevinMarks> I'm not arguing
  748. [23:49:25] <JamieKnight> hmm, thats what you just wrote
  749. [23:49:27] <KevinMarks> I'm just saying that some people get grumpy if you reorder their <dl>
  750. [23:49:49] <tantek> oh i know that, but the "but" expression in your statement may imply to some that you are. ;)
  751. [23:50:37] <JamieKnight> do you have any recomendations for book where i can learn about this sort of stuff, or get a grounding into the background of this all.
  752. [23:50:47] <KevinMarks> brian wrote one
  753. [23:50:51] <KevinMarks> well, a pdf
  754. [23:51:06] <JamieKnight> okay,
  755. [23:51:11] <JamieKnight> i think i have seen that,
  756. [23:51:18] <JamieKnight> from o'rialy
  757. [23:51:26] <JamieKnight> http://www.amazon.co.uk/DOM-Scripting-Design-JavaScript-Document/dp/1590595335/sr=1-4/qid=1171583385/ref=sr_1_4/026-5150961-5563655?ie=UTF8&s=books
  758. [23:51:44] <JamieKnight> i have his other book and it is great, so i am considering this one.
  759. [23:54:21] <JamieKnight> (i know that no the suda book i am reffering to a book what will cover the background to this)

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