IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:00:25] <tantek>
and then using that list, create a section for yourself on the "to-do" page and put the list there
- [00:00:28] <TylerR>
Thanks JamieKnight.
- [00:00:33] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do
- [00:00:43] <TylerR>
Perfect, will do.
- [00:03:58] <JamieKnight>
good luck TylerR
- [00:04:06] <JamieKnight>
i have to go now, bye evryone.
- [00:04:16] <defunkt>
wow, i can't believe i missed vpim
- [00:04:17] <TylerR>
Thanks JamieKnight. It's going to be an uphill battle for sure.
- [00:04:18] <defunkt>
what a cool little program
- [00:04:39] * TylerR remembers the day he discovered TextMate.
- [00:04:52] <JamieKnight>
you will succseded i am sure, if you need anything we are all behind you all the way
- [00:05:04] <defunkt>
not vim :) vpim is a ruby thing for playing with iCal and vCard
- [00:05:21] <defunkt>
unfortunately named, i suppose
- [00:05:27] <TylerR>
Wonderful, thanks JamieKnight.
- [00:05:35] <JamieKnight>
licks,
- [00:05:40] <JamieKnight>
:D
- [00:05:43] <JamieKnight>
byeeeeee,
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- [00:06:38] * TylerR waves.
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- [00:11:00] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13514 * ChristopheDucamp * (+756)
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- [00:14:11] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13515 * ChristopheDucamp * (+206) Exemples avec quelques problèmes -
- [00:15:29] * tantek realizes he made a lot of work for ChristopheDucamp with the recent hcard-examples-in-wild reorg
- [00:17:48] <TylerR>
tantek: Would you mind if I included your name in an e-mail to my development manager? He's pitching the blog formation tomorrow and wanted a bit of detail as to the background of uf.
- [00:17:51] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13516 * ChristopheDucamp * (+353) currently synchronizing
- [00:18:47] <tantek>
TylerR - you may mention me in regards to my contributions to microformats, but please do not imply in any way that I am a "contact" for microformats. In other words, avoiding making me a bottleneck of any sort.
- [00:19:16] <TylerR>
Oh definitely not. It was exactly as you put, I would using your contributions as example.
- [00:19:18] <tantek>
The channels of communication defined on microformats.org/discuss are the appropriate ways to interact with the microformats community.
- [00:19:24] <tantek>
Thanks.
- [00:20:07] <TylerR>
Sure thing. We're just wanting to make this a strong pitch so I can move forward.
- [00:21:02] <TylerR>
I just wish this internal blog we'll be starting up could get some outside exposure.
- [00:29:17] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13517 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2047) Exemples Groupés -
- [00:29:29] <TylerR>
Anyway, I'm off till tomorrow. Take care everyone.
- [00:29:41] <tantek>
take care
- [00:30:02] <TylerR>
Thanks for your offer of support tantek. I'm very excited to help bring awareness to the company about this great community.
- [00:30:40] <TylerR>
One of the talks I plan on doing is a "how to get involved" where I'll reiterate the Wiki content.
- [00:30:53] <TylerR>
Anyway, cheers!
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- [00:31:03] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13518 * ChristopheDucamp * (+246) Exemples Groupés -
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- [00:40:43] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13519 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1757) Exemples Groupés -
- [00:42:14] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13520 * ChristopheDucamp * (-559) Exemples Critiqués -
- [00:43:35] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13521 * ChristopheDucamp * (+558) Exemples en UTF8 -
- [00:45:06] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13522 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Exemples Critiqués -
- [00:46:37] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13523 * ChristopheDucamp * (-322) Exemples Révisés -
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- [01:00:57] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13524 * ChristopheDucamp * (+453) Exemples -
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- [01:15:17] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13525 * ChristopheDucamp * (-735) Exemples Révisés - sync'd
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- [02:24:43] <mfbot>
[[presentations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations&diff=0&oldid=13526 * Tantek * (+747) added Web Directions North Presentations
- [02:27:44] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13527 * Tantek * (+4)
- [02:37:59] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13528 * AidAdams * (+16) Attending -
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- [02:45:10] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13529 * Tantek * (+78)
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- [04:06:25] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13530 * JohnAllsopp * (+75) Blog Posts -
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- [09:48:34] <drewinthehead>
hey DanWrong
- [09:48:58] <DanWrong>
morning
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- [09:49:58] <drewinthehead>
looks like we might be touching on Sumo in the .net podcast this week
- [09:50:18] <drewinthehead>
anything you'd like expressed about it?
- [09:53:26] <DanWrong>
that it's not quite finished yet....but that's cool drew, cheers.
- [09:53:47] <drewinthehead>
cool
- [09:53:53] <DanWrong>
Hopefully I have the test suite finished while at barcamp
- [09:55:09] <drewinthehead>
great stuff. i'll be sure to point out that it's early days
- [09:55:13] <DanWrong>
I need to do something about rel-tag and XFN too, Im not sure how to usefully represent those
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[[events-fr/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2&diff=0&oldid=13531 * ChristopheDucamp * (+45) Microformateurs parmi les participants - enthusiast to join
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[[events/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2&diff=0&oldid=13532 * ChristopheDucamp * (+45) Microformateers in attendance -
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- [14:02:55] <mfbot>
[[process]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=process&diff=0&oldid=13533 * Phae * (-4) Why? - redirection to -new
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[[process]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=process&diff=0&oldid=13534 * Phae * (-4) Why? -
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- [14:30:58] <DavidMead>
Hi all, I've been reading Roger Costello's excellent tutorial in microformats but I still don't know where I can extract the geo-data for an address - Can someone point me in the right direction?
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- [14:36:50] <tom-morris>
DavidMead: install Google Earth - you should be able to get the geographical coordinates quite easily using it.
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- [14:38:00] <DavidMead>
cheers
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- [16:00:53] <Ru>
hi - does someone have an email contact for Andy Mabbett?
- [16:06:22] <Ru>
I was looking at the advocacy page http://microformats.org/wiki/advocacy#hCalendar - I'm a project manager at a similar site, online news publishing UK & Ireland - we have events listings, tv & radio listings i'm interested to talk to a microformats person..
- [16:06:23] <mfbot>
[[digitalsignature-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digitalsignature-examples&diff=0&oldid=13535 * HenrichPoehls * (+199) Added link to "main" digital-signature page
- [16:07:13] <mfbot>
[[digital-signatures]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digital-signatures&diff=0&oldid=13536 * HenrichPoehls * (+32) added Link to examples page
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- [16:12:54] <trovster>
Ru: Join the mailing list, there are plenty of people active.
- [16:13:55] <trovster>
Ah, I see why you want to contact him, coz he's contacted most of those sites
- [16:14:42] <Ru>
trovster: yep, :) - not to worry I found his addy on a bird watching site
- [16:14:49] <Ru>
tovster: thanks though!
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- [16:25:08] <mfbot>
[[media-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=13537 * MikeJohnson * (+2056) Service Publishing of Music -
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- [16:53:13] <mkaply>
Can tags have spaces in them?
- [16:53:16] <mkaply>
is the tag for http://de.lirio.us/tags/commercial%20art
- [16:53:19] <mkaply>
commercial art
- [17:00:44] <briansuda>
i think so yes
- [17:00:57] <briansuda>
sometimes you can do commercial+art
- [17:01:05] <briansuda>
different services do different things
- [17:01:10] <briansuda>
Flickr ignores spaces
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- [17:07:34] <mkaply>
so does flickr want the + instead of the space?
- [17:08:06] <mkaply>
ah. to flickr, space means multiple tags.
- [17:08:17] <mkaply>
whereas blue+moon means the tag "blue moon"
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- [17:08:22] <mkaply>
nice
- [17:09:34] <TylerR>
Morning.
- [17:09:36] <briansuda>
i use tags on my own site, then on my tagspace i have links to flickr, del.icio.us, etc tagspaces, but i need to reformat my tags for them
- [17:14:08] * bear_afk is now known as bear
- [17:15:33] <mkaply>
briansuda: you told me not to worry too much about <del> but you use it on your contact! :)
- [17:15:50] <briansuda>
yeah, i think i did that as a use-case for myself
- [17:16:05] <briansuda>
i don't think in real-life anyone really uses DEL or INS
- [17:16:24] <briansuda>
infact i think they are dropped in HTML5 or XHTML2 in favour of the edit attribute
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- [17:25:30] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13538 * ScottFegette * (+15)
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- [17:27:36] * mkaply is learning to hate Yahoo MAps
- [17:27:46] <mkaply>
different APIs for old style vs. broadband
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- [17:31:44] <briansuda>
apstraction
- [17:31:48] <briansuda>
mapstraction
- [17:32:34] <mkaply>
I just find it odd that a lot of these sites aren't designed for anyone else to interact with their data. Does yahoo not like third parties adding to their calendar? They've certainly made it painful enough.
- [17:32:44] <mkaply>
(with a URL - they force you to use their APIs)
- [17:33:18] * mkaply takes solace in the fact that his add to yahoo calendar works better than upcoming.org
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- [17:38:20] <mfbot>
[[digitalsignature-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digitalsignature-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13539 * HenrichPoehls * (+1510) Getting Discussion started
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- [18:24:03] <mfbot>
[[events-fr/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events-fr/2007-02-07-web-directions-north * ChristopheDucamp * (+2614) translation of events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north
- [18:25:54] <mfbot>
[[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13540 * ChristopheDucamp * (+950)
- [18:26:25] <mfbot>
[[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13541 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2) 2007 -
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- [18:30:06] <mfbot>
[[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13542 * ChristopheDucamp * (+139)
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- [18:35:19] <tantek>
DavidMead - geo and adr are two separate things
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- [19:17:59] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north&diff=0&oldid=13543 * Tantek * (+108) added another photo
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- [19:23:55] <JamieKnight>
hiya,
- [19:31:25] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
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- [19:43:20] <JamieKnight>
hiya JMulder
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- [19:44:56] <JamieKnight>
hiya briansuda
- [19:45:18] * briansuda waves
- [19:45:29] * JamieKnight is excited
- [19:45:38] * JamieKnight has just finished a redesign of his site
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- [19:48:11] <JamieKnight>
hiya KevinMarks
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- [19:48:37] <KevinMarks>
hi
- [19:48:42] <JamieKnight>
how are you?
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- [19:49:37] <KevinMarks>
good, drinking from the Google information firehose
- [19:49:45] <JamieKnight>
kew,
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- [19:49:55] <JamieKnight>
sounds,um netrutions,
- [19:49:58] <JamieKnight>
hiya km
- [19:50:02] <JamieKnight>
mkaply:
- [19:54:15] <mkaply>
hey
- [19:54:25] <JamieKnight>
how are things going?
- [19:54:49] * JamieKnight is happy, he has got the new version of his site out of the door at last
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- [20:30:51] <TylerR>
Hey there KevinMarks.
- [20:31:07] <TylerR>
Congratulations on your new job.
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- [20:34:37] <TylerR>
Looks like I've got myself a presentation for next Friday on accessibility. Any suggestions on how I can hook Microformats into the talk?
- [20:34:57] <JamieKnight>
um,
- [20:35:03] <JamieKnight>
hCard aware screen readers,
- [20:35:24] <JamieKnight>
could for exmaple change the way they said adresses to how adresses are normall said,
- [20:35:34] <JamieKnight>
sematics
- [20:35:51] <TylerR>
Naturally.
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- [20:36:05] <JamieKnight>
cant reallu think of any
- [20:36:10] * TylerR nods.
- [20:36:10] <JamieKnight>
*really
- [20:36:11] <JamieKnight>
rather
- [20:36:33] <TylerR>
I basically want to keep it to around 10 slides or so, 20 minutes long.
- [20:36:41] <JamieKnight>
hmmm,
- [20:36:41] <KevinMarks>
accessibility is correlated with semantic html
- [20:36:56] <JamieKnight>
how much do they allredy know?
- [20:37:17] <TylerR>
Not a lot JamieKnight. These are mostly SharePoint and internal MS tool developers.
- [20:37:17] <JamieKnight>
are you talking o people who allredy understand why xhtml CSS ect, or are the still liking table for layout?
- [20:37:19] * TylerR smiles.
- [20:37:29] <KevinMarks>
look at pilgrim's http://diveintoaccessibility.org/
- [20:37:49] <JamieKnight>
well, maybe you need to start by tailing them through why the web needs to be accsessible
- [20:38:03] <TylerR>
Beautiful KevinMarks. Thank you. I know enough about accessibility to get a presentation up and running, I'm just looking for interesting tidbits that I may not be aware of.
- [20:38:32] * TylerR nods. I plan on covering the why right off the bat.
- [20:39:09] <TylerR>
No one needs to hear a life story about accessibility, they need to know why it's good, why it's important, and why we need to know about it.
- [20:39:29] <TylerR>
"we" being the collective company.
- [20:39:43] * bear is now known as bear_afk
- [20:40:12] <TylerR>
As an MS vendor company, my upcoming talks and discussions are definitely going to be interesting.
- [20:40:28] <TylerR>
I find it's going to be a wonderful opportunity to evangelize.
- [20:40:59] <TylerR>
This is an excellent resource. Thank you KevinMarks.
- [20:41:10] <JamieKnight>
hmmm, MS + standards and accessebility are very uncoprative
- [20:41:26] <TylerR>
They
- [20:41:34] <TylerR>
*they're making good strides.
- [20:41:51] <JamieKnight>
they could have done alot more though,
- [20:41:59] <JamieKnight>
they definitly have the resorces,
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- [20:42:52] <TylerR>
As one of their top partners though, I feel compelled to educate our company as well as our clients about not only the technology benefits of standards-based design, but the monetary as well.
- [20:43:10] <JamieKnight>
cheaper to redesign,
- [20:43:14] <JamieKnight>
wont get sued ;)
- [20:43:26] <JamieKnight>
ect, ect
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- [20:47:37] <TylerR>
Not a lot of people here understand the potential of a site utilizing the power of XFN as an example. For instance, if XFN was injected into Live Spaces, MS would have powerful relationship data invaluable to marketing, internal analysts, etc.
- [20:47:59] <TylerR>
Let alone the power that a properly semantic table and form have.
- [20:48:01] * TylerR smiles/.
- [20:50:03] <TylerR>
Companies that used XFN internally could use it as a measure of quality of life among employees, seeing if people are getting to know others outside their immediate circles and teams.
- [20:50:23] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
- [20:50:26] <TylerR>
That's where I'm going to be focusing on first really, getting uf implemented internally.
- [20:50:28] * bewest knows everyone in my company
- [20:50:29] <JamieKnight>
TylerR: i supose,
- [20:50:50] * JamieKnight knows evrye*one* else in the company he workds for
- [20:50:52] <TylerR>
bewest: Lucky for you. I have 300+ people to remember. hehe
- [20:50:59] * bewest has heard that most business is small business :-)
- [20:51:12] <JamieKnight>
TylerR: how about having a hCard formatted central contact info intranet site?
- [20:51:28] <JamieKnight>
a little like backnet maybe?
- [20:51:49] <TylerR>
JamieKnight: That's the other focus point. I'm going to be working with our intranet folks in implementing hCard into the company contact page.
- [20:51:56] <JamieKnight>
so, a work social site. in a way, for sharing photos and resorces across the company
- [20:52:11] <TylerR>
Ah we already have something of that nature.
- [20:52:11] <JamieKnight>
what company do you work for again
- [20:52:16] <TylerR>
Ascentium.
- [20:52:20] <JamieKnight>
kewl,
- [20:52:27] * TylerR nods. We're a fun bunch.
- [20:52:47] * JamieKnight wonders if he can have some poeople onpinion on his site redesing
- [20:52:54] <TylerR>
I'd like to talk with Steve Ganz when he's around next time and find out how he went about implementing hResume, or at least the initial phases.
- [20:53:02] <JamieKnight>
Aims were, redability, and simplicity.
- [20:53:31] <JamieKnight>
how about having user tagging of company page on the intranet?
- [20:54:16] <TylerR>
I need to start small. I've only been here about 8-1/2 months, plenty of time to make change. :)
- [20:55:01] <JamieKnight>
i am glad of one thing, at pentangle i dont need to worry about office politics.
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- [20:55:55] <TylerR>
We don't really have much in the way of that. We're a very flat company.
- [20:56:40] <JamieKnight>
then why does only being there mean you cant impliment things? (i dont understand hesne i am aksing, please do not think i being rude, i have never come across sothing like this and would liek to understand!)
- [20:57:46] <TylerR>
It's a bit more complicated than just going into the intranet and building something. We have clearly defined roles and accountability within the company.
- [20:58:01] <TylerR>
It gets like that when you get to the size we are.
- [20:58:23] <JamieKnight>
seems complicated.
- [20:58:36] <JamieKnight>
at pentangle if we see somthing as kewl we impliment it,
- [20:58:39] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
- [20:58:52] <JamieKnight>
but, i supose i am in the poistion where my role is not relly very defined.
- [20:59:04] <TylerR>
It always is with a larger company.
- [20:59:16] * JamieKnight is a "geek" offically
- [20:59:59] <TylerR>
Ah, see, we hire for specific job roles. We have a clearly defined structure in place.
- [21:00:29] <TylerR>
So while switching roles within the company isn't impossible, it isn't as easy as suggesting something then instantly taking on that role.
- [21:00:34] <JamieKnight>
i got my job because i walked in one day and asked for it.....
- [21:00:46] <JamieKnight>
hmmm, i think i prefer small companies,
- [21:01:12] <JamieKnight>
I like working with alun because he understands, and with what has been going on in the last 10 months he has been suportive and given me work when he can
- [21:02:59] * TylerR nods. Smaller companies can be rather fun.
- [21:03:34] <JamieKnight>
i think i would decribe them as more pokey,
- [21:03:38] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [21:03:47] <JamieKnight>
you for exmaple, can have a company evil mokey
- [21:03:52] <JamieKnight>
*monkey rather
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- [21:05:02] <TylerR>
I'm sort of the monkey right now. I'm pretty new. I do a lot of the more tedious tasks. That's why I'm taking on this role as a sort of evangelist for standards and uf.
- [21:05:27] <JamieKnight>
kewl,
- [21:05:32] <TylerR>
If I prove myself apt at this stuff in the next year, I could find myself in a much more responsible and interesting position.
- [21:05:44] <JamieKnight>
i just do what i can, and learn stuff
- [21:06:02] <JamieKnight>
i like the fact that i get asked to look at things then left to get obbsessed with them.
- [21:06:31] <JamieKnight>
there is no "you will do this now because i told you to" i get asked about things. which at 17 is very strange to be treated as a equal.
- [21:06:38] * danja (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
- [21:06:41] <JamieKnight>
even more stranger when people alos know you autistic,
- [21:06:42] <TylerR>
It's not really about gaining a better position in the company, it's gaining the ability (and permission) to share what I'm passionate about, and educating others. Right now I'm just a web developer that does work for the site managers, who report to project managers, who work with engagement managers, who...
- [21:07:03] <JamieKnight>
then alot of people think you are insane,
- [21:07:08] <TylerR>
I'd like to be someone that all of those positions come to.
- [21:07:20] <JamieKnight>
that sounds intresting,
- [21:07:43] <TylerR>
It's going to be an interesting journey for sure.
- [21:08:11] <JamieKnight>
yeah,
- [21:08:15] <TylerR>
But I feel I can sell myself as a powerful and valuable asset to the company. I love the company, I want to see it prosper, I feel what I'll be providing will do nothing but benefit them.
- [21:08:35] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@CPE0050181121d5-CM0012254493da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [21:08:38] <JamieKnight>
i have never really thoughof it that way,
- [21:08:47] <JamieKnight>
i have always seen my job as a way of doing what i love,
- [21:08:52] <TylerR>
I don't look at being an MS vendor as a curse working with people who don't follow the rest of the web on standards and such, I see everything as opportunity.
- [21:08:54] <JamieKnight>
and, making it useful to people,
- [21:09:08] <TylerR>
That's how I thought when I first started working.
- [21:09:14] <JamieKnight>
being an MS vendor is not that bad,
- [21:09:34] <JamieKnight>
as long as you dont try preaching the offical microsoft line at people
- [21:09:38] <TylerR>
I was passionate about a couple things when I left college, beautiful code and happy clients.
- [21:09:49] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
- [21:10:09] <TylerR>
Now I'm passionate about helping the company be everything they don't know they can be. :)
- [21:10:17] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-50431637aca261e7) has joined #microformats
- [21:10:19] <JamieKnight>
"linux is not a viable server Os" is what i am reffering to, i have known a few people who were microsoft reseller tried telling me.
- [21:10:32] <JamieKnight>
because that was the offical microsoft line
- [21:10:38] <JamieKnight>
(and i think i still is)
- [21:11:02] <TylerR>
Our company sells, develops, consults, and maintains MS solutions, we have to believe in that official line. :)
- [21:11:36] <JamieKnight>
dosent it bother you?
- [21:11:56] <TylerR>
Not at all. It's about selling a solution to someone to alleviate a problem.
- [21:11:57] <JamieKnight>
I wouldent be able to work in an enviroment where i was "fourced" to sell somthing which was not the best?
- [21:12:14] <TylerR>
Ah you see, when something is not the best, what do you do?
- [21:12:16] <JamieKnight>
if i was selling a solution, and i knew there was a better one, i would sell them that
- [21:12:29] <JamieKnight>
get the best, or write one that is better
- [21:12:52] <JamieKnight>
for example, i am never going to tell a client they need to pay for microfsoft webfacing servers,
- [21:12:54] <TylerR>
I see it as, if it's not the best, work towards making it the best. See the potential in the pitfalls.
- [21:13:15] <JamieKnight>
but with the microsoft attitude, the pits fuls will not change,
- [21:13:34] <TylerR>
That's why I work for a vendor. We do customized MS solutions.
- [21:13:36] * TylerR smiles.
- [21:13:44] <TylerR>
We can make those changes that help.
- [21:13:47] <JamieKnight>
hmmm,
- [21:13:56] <JamieKnight>
i would still find it difficult,
- [21:14:05] <JamieKnight>
are you making the slide in S5 or powerpoint for example?
- [21:14:48] <TylerR>
PowerPoint, only because I don't have access to Keynote at work, and the presentation will be on a Windows laptop.
- [21:14:57] <JamieKnight>
use S5
- [21:15:06] <JamieKnight>
then you can place it on the intranet for other easier,
- [21:15:08] <TylerR>
I don't mind myself.
- [21:15:20] <JamieKnight>
or, on the wiki for other people in your position to use,
- [21:15:49] <TylerR>
It's just a piece of software that gets a message across. It won't be tagged up, made live to external people, or anything else really.
- [21:15:59] <JamieKnight>
thats not the point,
- [21:16:07] <JamieKnight>
have you used S5 before,
- [21:16:12] <JamieKnight>
imagine at the end saying,
- [21:16:31] <JamieKnight>
"this slide show was built using accsessible techinoliges from the internet"
- [21:16:40] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
- [21:16:42] * TylerR chuckles.
- [21:17:08] <JamieKnight>
you could disable styles and show them how, a webpage can e alot more than a webpage, and how hoe the internet and the web are different
- [21:18:17] <JamieKnight>
would make the talk memorable if done in a "staey" way
- [21:19:17] <TylerR>
Understandable. It's a touchy subject though. Imagine the MS Zune team demonstrating music output via an iPod. Working for a close MS partner company, it's expected you use their technology.
- [21:19:33] <TylerR>
Dogfood is the term.
- [21:20:09] <JamieKnight>
but why?
- [21:20:43] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [21:20:47] <JamieKnight>
S5 is to do with the theme of the presentation? thats the sort of thing that i meant when i sai di wouldent be able to work for a company like that. because i can see how it slows down development.
- [21:21:12] <TylerR>
I would read this article on Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_one%27s_own_dog_food
- [21:21:26] <JamieKnight>
for example, in S5 you can very very put it online,
- [21:21:50] <JamieKnight>
imagine all those time techer ect have been asked to put somthing onto a school website but they havent because they were convinced it was hard.
- [21:21:52] <TylerR>
Also this
- [21:21:53] <TylerR>
http://www.panopticoncentral.net/archive/2004/12/10/2828.aspx
- [21:22:07] <JamieKnight>
because they were using the technology they were being fourced to use. It wrong.
- [21:23:21] <JamieKnight>
dogfooding hold back a the technology evolution though.
- [21:23:38] <TylerR>
Now, I can work with my company and MS to implement uf because it isn't in competition with MS, it promotes community, and it enhances their products. Same with the general concepts of semantics, standards, and accessibility. Everyone benefits.
- [21:24:06] <JamieKnight>
fine, they why not push to develope a MS product which acts a a GUI for S5
- [21:24:31] <JamieKnight>
take S5 to you mangers (the oxox version for some micrformat goodness of course) and say look at this.
- [21:24:46] <JamieKnight>
lets develope somthing we can give to clients who want it to go online that works, and is simple.
- [21:25:32] <JamieKnight>
rather than give them somthing which "works(ish" give them what they need,
- [21:25:37] <TylerR>
It's hard to explain JamieKnight. It's a completely different culture than smaller companies who have the ability to change on the fly.
- [21:25:56] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-152-250-163.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [21:25:57] <JamieKnight>
TylerR: i dont relly care about the culture, its for me about morels.
- [21:26:10] <JamieKnight>
surely, selling somone other than the best, is liing to them and misleading them.
- [21:26:20] * dzach (n=dzach@ppp075-067.dsl.hol.gr) has left #microformats
- [21:26:54] <JamieKnight>
doing a presenation in an old, and propiroty software when you are talking about standards seem hypocritical, at least, and iif i was listining i would feel confused.
- [21:27:21] <JamieKnight>
do you understand my point? why follow the "culture" if you want to inovate then inovate.
- [21:28:15] <JamieKnight>
sorry if i seem like i am ranting, i just find it frustrating when people "are fourced" to do somthing which is wrong.
- [21:28:22] <TylerR>
What's "best" is what the company believes is best. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Microsoft and their vendors believe MS is the best solution. JetBlue believe they're the best airline. GM believe they make the best trucks. Everyone aims to have faith in the things they are passionate about and work towards.
- [21:28:39] <JamieKnight>
TylerR: so, do you have faith in standards?
- [21:28:47] <JamieKnight>
are you passonate towards standards
- [21:29:03] <JamieKnight>
if so, then use them when they are suitible and avalible.
- [21:29:56] <JamieKnight>
the very reason you have just given mean, could be the very reaosn somone in the company wouldent come to you for microformats. because "IE7 the best broswer in the world" doesent support them?
- [21:30:00] <JamieKnight>
see my poiny?
- [21:30:04] <JamieKnight>
*point rather.
- [21:30:07] <TylerR>
Yes, and that is why I work for a company that promotes MS products. It gives me the widest audience in the world to promote and advocate the adoption of standards-based design, microformats, and other innovative and upcoming concepts and technologies.
- [21:30:21] <JamieKnight>
then promote them in all you do.
- [21:30:26] <JamieKnight>
push them.
- [21:30:33] * TylerR sighs.
- [21:30:46] <JamieKnight>
is there a rule saying that you must use powerpoint for your presentation,
- [21:30:59] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.9/0000000000]")
- [21:31:02] <JamieKnight>
earlier you mentioned you would do it on keynote but that was unavalible?
- [21:31:14] <JamieKnight>
so, please expain the difference?
- [21:31:22] <TylerR>
It's not about fighting the man in every aspect, else I would be fired in a week. It's about working with what you have, enhancing the experience, and slowly working towards finding a solid balance of your passions and their culture.
- [21:31:40] <JamieKnight>
i am ot fighting,
- [21:31:51] <JamieKnight>
i am trying to get somone who is advocating to "advocate"
- [21:32:08] <JamieKnight>
(that wasent meant rudly by the way, lack of a better way to describe it)
- [21:32:29] <JamieKnight>
why not use the technologies which you are talking about to make you talk.
- [21:32:39] <TylerR>
I understand your stance. It's simply a delicate matter when your company sells and promotes MS products to use something other than an MS product to present something.
- [21:32:40] <JamieKnight>
you could make a popwerpoint version of it later,
- [21:32:43] <TylerR>
Simple as that.
- [21:32:55] <JamieKnight>
but thats not logical or simple.
- [21:33:10] <TylerR>
It would be if you worked in this environment, believe me. :)
- [21:33:31] <JamieKnight>
i personally find it infruiting that "compaines" are essentully holding evryhting back.
- [21:34:05] <JamieKnight>
TylerR: think of web standards as a "software writer free" product
- [21:34:17] <JamieKnight>
they use HTML on thier website, due to the fact the have to,
- [21:34:44] <JamieKnight>
they dont see it as "another personson product" they (hopfully) see it as the Right thing for the job.
- [21:34:58] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-50431637aca261e7) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [21:35:14] <JamieKnight>
for, a basic slideshow, on accsessibility, that you will want avlible to people S5 is your best bet,
- [21:35:25] <JamieKnight>
why not talk to a manager about it if that is what you must do.
- [21:36:16] <mfbot>
[[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13544 * SMulcahy * (+295) Ronnos -
- [21:37:32] <mfbot>
[[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13545 * SMulcahy * (+18) Ronnos -
- [21:37:52] <TylerR>
I find it frustrating as well JamieKnight. I'm just not in a position to pick up a pitchfork and torch. I have to introduce new ideas and concepts slowly. We're talking stubborn, well-established, slow-moving behemoths companies here. Revolutions can happen on a smaller scale, or when the board of directors chooses to take the company in a new direction, but a web developer that works for a vendor of a company simply can't get the backing
- [21:38:38] <JamieKnight>
TylerR: surly, doing somthing you have been asked to do, they way you see best is the Best for the company
- [21:38:47] <JamieKnight>
your doing ti because they have dicided you are the best for it.
- [21:38:58] <mfbot>
[[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13546 * SMulcahy * (+2) sorry, some formatting issues
- [21:39:10] <TylerR>
I have to develop credability, a following, successful implementations and happy clients. I'm passionate first about my companies success, second about my clients success, and third about my own passions.
- [21:39:10] <JamieKnight>
thus, if you do your best, and do it The best ,ost suitible way then it sends a messag eof you knowlage and confidence
- [21:39:34] <JamieKnight>
develope credability by being bold
- [21:39:50] <JamieKnight>
when asked "why did you not use a M$ product for this" tell them why
- [21:40:09] <JamieKnight>
explain why, and explain that you would love to se a "quality MS product built on this technology"
- [21:40:10] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
- [21:42:06] <TylerR>
JamieKnight, I work for a company that sells MS solutions. It's a simple matter of working within reasonable bounds. I don't mind using PowerPoint when the message I'm getting across doesn't depend on the technology that I use. I'm done debating this, I don't want all of today's logs to be clogged with standards debate.
- [21:42:09] * TylerR chuckles.
- [21:42:38] <JamieKnight>
okay,
- [21:43:03] <JamieKnight>
maybe i should just put this into a "jamie dosent understand and corperate logic folder"
- [21:43:23] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]")
- [21:43:30] <JamieKnight>
thanks for trying to explain, as i said its the first time i have come across this sort of thing. I hope i am never in a position where i have to do somthing like that.
- [21:43:40] <JamieKnight>
I wish you the best of luck with the presentation
- [21:43:45] <TylerR>
That's about the best way to handle this sort of thing. Just file it under that category and you're golden.
- [21:43:45] <TylerR>
:)
- [21:44:24] <mfbot>
[[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13547 * SMulcahy * (+610) Stephen Mulcahy -
- [21:44:49] <JamieKnight>
as a side note, being autistic, i often find things like that difficult to understand because it doesent make any sense. thanks for the patience to try and explain
- [21:44:53] <TylerR>
Working in the corporate realm is very much different than working with these wonderfully dynamic newer companies for sure. :)
- [21:45:14] <TylerR>
Sure thing JamieKnight. I really don't mind trying to understand things at all. It gives me a chance to stretch my brain.
- [21:45:29] <JamieKnight>
TylerR: when i did my work experince, i did it at a a collage,
- [21:45:32] <TylerR>
I absolutely love the culture of smaller web start-ups and such.
- [21:46:10] <TylerR>
I also love the corporate culture, because it gives me a challenge. :)
- [21:46:17] <JamieKnight>
and, i got very very angery and upset, when i was given a flat PDF of of some content for thier site which i was helping them to update.
- [21:46:21] * bear_afk is now known as bear
- [21:46:55] <JamieKnight>
i got upset, because i had to retype it all, and i didnt mind the typing, it was the fact of how ineffcient it was, and how i can see things like that slowing down evolution of techonologies ect.
- [21:47:33] <TylerR>
Ah yeah. It's how the cards fall sometimes.
- [21:48:27] <JamieKnight>
the things that infruated me, was that the person who had made the PDF had the word document.. its just the person who normally did the job i was doing liked wasting time retyping things because she could talk.
- [21:48:50] <JamieKnight>
they told me that. the person who normally did that job was wasting time, the whole room knew yet no one cared.
- [21:49:02] <JamieKnight>
i find that hard ot understand.
- [21:49:40] <TylerR>
Clients and supervisors/managers always have interesting demands. ;)
- [21:50:19] <JamieKnight>
its one of the reason i like my job,
- [21:50:34] * danja (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
- [21:50:36] <JamieKnight>
i work flexable hours, (when i want to) i get choice in what i do, and i get to learn.
- [21:50:55] <TylerR>
Very nice.
- [21:50:57] <JamieKnight>
I am lucky that alun understands the sort of things i am good at and what i would find hard
- [21:51:13] <JamieKnight>
(i am never put anywhere near clients..... i would likley scare them off)
- [21:52:04] <JamieKnight>
TylerR: would you give me your opinion on the new version of my site?
- [21:52:10] <JamieKnight>
http://jkg3.com
- [21:52:23] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-152-250-163.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
- [21:53:03] <TylerR>
Straightforward, simple, clean. Good work. :)
- [21:53:10] <JamieKnight>
thanks,
- [21:53:29] <JamieKnight>
do you have any suggestions? i am trying to ask as many people who i know are good as possible,
- [21:53:56] <TylerR>
I might later tonight. I'm at work and need to focus on some stuff.
- [21:54:08] <JamieKnight>
ah, okay sorry
- [21:54:12] <JamieKnight>
have a good day,
- [21:54:14] <mfbot>
[[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13548 * SMulcahy * (+517) a start at some hProductNotebook characteristics
- [21:54:46] <TylerR>
No worries. I'll be around, just can't go off on a tirade of talk like earlier. ;)
- [21:55:03] <JamieKnight>
sorry,
- [21:55:28] <JamieKnight>
i get frustrated when i see "thing which annoy me" and i try to try and make people do the "right" thing.
- [21:56:21] <JamieKnight>
i really should sort out this 404 page thinking of it.
- [21:56:24] <JamieKnight>
see you later,
- [21:56:58] <TylerR>
Sure thing, take care.
- [21:59:20] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
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- [22:09:21] <csarven>
http://blogxoxo.blogspot.com/ -- a little red
- [22:09:49] <JamieKnight>
hiya csarven
- [22:10:25] <csarven>
ahoy ahoy
- [22:10:46] <JamieKnight>
how be you?
- [22:11:24] <JamieKnight>
hmmm, has anone spoke to them about usibility?
- [22:11:29] <JamieKnight>
anyone rather
- [22:11:43] * JamieKnight wonder if the are a developer Far more than a designer.
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- [23:06:07] * pnhChris gets KevinMarks' computer a cup of coffee
- [23:06:44] <badd>
lol.
- [23:07:47] <KevinMarks>
i could do with one myself
- [23:08:52] <TylerR>
How's the new office KevinMarks?
- [23:11:56] * briansuda (n=briansud@81-5-138-228.dsl.eclipse.net.uk) has joined #microformats
- [23:11:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [23:11:58] <csarven>
is it just me or xoxo is confusing?
- [23:12:09] * anselxyz (n=chatzill@DNab423c8f.Stanford.EDU) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [23:12:35] <csarven>
i couldn't find a precise definition as to what it really does or what to do with it.
- [23:13:22] <tantek>
csarven, perhaps you are thinking too hard about it?
- [23:13:28] <csarven>
perhaps :)
- [23:13:39] <tantek>
it's just lists and outlines, with optional arbitrary sets of properties
- [23:13:40] <kingryan>
csarven: it's like xml that you can render in a browser
- [23:13:42] <bewest>
yes
- [23:13:44] <tantek>
on items
- [23:13:49] <bewest>
many people have that problem
- [23:13:56] <tantek>
thinking too hard?
- [23:14:01] <bewest>
about xoxo
- [23:14:32] <csarven>
any relation to an XHTML document with modules?
- [23:14:48] <tantek>
it's a foil/strawman against the simplistic (and flawed) methodology that one needs a new XML format for all any new chunk of data
- [23:15:01] <tantek>
that's really what it is
- [23:15:36] <csarven>
is there some server-side scripting involved in this to make use or manipulate this xoxo information?
- [23:15:56] <tantek>
it's just a format for a list or an outline
- [23:16:04] <tantek>
what you do with lists and outlines is up to the application
- [23:16:25] <JamieKnight>
so, like automatic site maps?
- [23:16:34] <iand>
csarven, we're using xoxo as an HTML view of list-like data
- [23:17:37] <csarven>
i think i see.. so if there is some information that doesn't belong to a microformat you can mark it with xoxo and have the application treat that in whatever way it needs to?
- [23:17:38] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1128675444.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #microformats
- [23:17:56] * csarven is trying to think less
- [23:18:11] <iand>
we have an xml format for this data, but we want a human readable version in HTML too. adding xoxo is a low cost way of structuring that data so it can be easily parsed from the HTML
- [23:18:54] <iand>
also, we can reuse css that other people have worked on for laying out xoxo compatible lists
- [23:19:22] <iand>
nobody has written css for our custom xml format :)
- [23:19:54] <iand>
( see http://api.talis.com/bf/stores/ukbib/services/facet?query=feynman&fields=title%2Csubject&top=10&output=html )
- [23:21:02] * iand wonders if any xoxo gurus have time to give that a once-over for correctness
- [23:22:37] <bewest>
http://xoxotools.ning.com/xoxovalid.php
- [23:23:11] <iand>
cool tool
- [23:23:22] <iand>
and "Valid XOXO data found!" :D
- [23:23:22] <tantek>
iand - perhaps add it to the Examples in the Wild section so that it is more easily ambiently discoverable for once-overing ;)
- [23:23:39] <tantek>
and bewest, same thing with that and the Implementations section respectively
- [23:23:49] <iand>
will do
- [23:24:58] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) has joined #microformats
- [23:25:22] <iand>
tantek, that section on the xoxo page has no examples and this text: Too numerous to document thoroughly.
- [23:25:39] <tantek>
alright, then let's start adding some
- [23:25:52] <tantek>
and when they get too numerous we'll make a separate page out of them
- [23:26:03] * tantek thinks he added that text originally.
- [23:26:35] <iand>
cool. i'll add the url above as a start - just didn't want people to think i'm self promoting
- [23:26:47] * mbradley (n=chatzill@dasasob.nokia.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [23:29:38] <TylerR>
Hey tantek, how's the day going?
- [23:30:02] <JamieKnight>
any articles anywhere about how to impliment it?
- [23:31:45] <mfbot>
[[xoxo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=0&oldid=13549 * IanDavis * (+239) Examples in the Wild -
- [23:33:54] <kingryan>
JamieKnight: are you asking how to implement xoxo?
- [23:34:00] <JamieKnight>
yeah,
- [23:34:05] <JamieKnight>
is there a guide anywhere?
- [23:34:09] <kingryan>
it's simple, <ol> + <ul> + <dl>
- [23:34:12] <JamieKnight>
it sounds intresting,
- [23:34:26] <KevinMarks>
it's like JSON, but in html
- [23:34:30] <JamieKnight>
kingryan: can you be a little more specific?
- [23:34:34] <KevinMarks>
and with some special rules for urls
- [23:34:42] <kingryan>
KevinMarks has a great point
- [23:34:49] <KevinMarks>
[] -> <ol>
- [23:34:52] <JamieKnight>
i will go check out the wiki,
- [23:34:54] <tantek>
TylerR, the earth appears to be rotating within known parameters.
- [23:34:56] <KevinMarks>
{} -> <dl>
- [23:34:57] <kingryan>
you can serialize/unserialize data structures that json does in xoxo
- [23:34:58] <JamieKnight>
do some experimenting,
- [23:35:14] * KevinMarks should do JSON to XOXO
- [23:35:23] <kingryan>
and xoxo to json
- [23:35:30] <KevinMarks>
xoxo.py pretty much does so, as python structs are close to JSON
- [23:35:32] <TylerR>
Then I'd have to say the day is looking rather splendid tantek, good to hear!
- [23:35:46] <kingryan>
KevinMarks: you just gotta get the right syntax produced
- [23:36:47] <KevinMarks>
well, in python it's just simplejson.py + xoxo.py
- [23:36:58] <KevinMarks>
PHP may be harder
- [23:37:10] <KevinMarks>
and I'm sure you can do it in a few lines of ruby
- [23:37:15] <kingryan>
KevinMarks: make it a webservice, then you've added another pipe to the web
- [23:37:29] <KevinMarks>
oh, good idea
- [23:37:37] <KevinMarks>
RSS n'est pas une pipe
- [23:37:44] <KevinMarks>
RSS is more like tar
- [23:37:56] <bewest>
<3 RESTful pipes
- [23:38:33] <KevinMarks>
I'd blog about that but I'll just get a load of Google vs Yahoo noise
- [23:38:38] <tantek>
http://pipes.yahoo.com/search?q=Magritte&x=0&y=0 = "Browse Pipes: Pipes Search: Magritte Doh! We couldn't find any Pipes matching that. Sorry about that."
- [23:38:46] <tantek>
figures.
- [23:39:27] <kingryan>
anyone here from ma.gnolia?
- [23:39:28] * JamieKnight is completely lost but can appciate what is going on. (he thinks)
- [23:39:43] <KevinMarks>
it's their party tonight ryan
- [23:39:48] <kingryan>
JamieKnight: are you familar with json?
- [23:39:51] <KevinMarks>
they're probably out buying drink
- [23:39:55] <JamieKnight>
not relly,
- [23:40:04] <kingryan>
how about javascript?
- [23:40:06] <JamieKnight>
i know its javascrip and a way of transferring data,
- [23:40:13] <JamieKnight>
I am familier with javascript,
- [23:40:20] <kingryan>
right
- [23:40:24] <kingryan>
so a possible json file is:
- [23:40:44] <kingryan>
[1, 'foo', {'bar' : 'baz'}]
- [23:40:57] <JamieKnight>
what would that mean?
- [23:41:05] <kingryan>
that's just an array with an int, string and nest dictionary
- [23:41:17] <JamieKnight>
um....
- [23:41:18] <kingryan>
JamieKnight: it means whatever your application does with it
- [23:41:24] <kingryan>
nested*
- [23:41:43] <JamieKnight>
okay, i need to brush up on my js......
- [23:42:02] <kingryan>
well, anyway you can do the above in xoxo as:
- [23:42:46] <kingryan>
<ol><li>1</li><li>foo</li><li><dl><dt>bar</dt><dd>baz</dd></dl></li></ol>
- [23:42:49] <kingryan>
:D
- [23:43:02] <kingryan>
verbose, I know, but you can render it in your browser :D
- [23:43:03] <JamieKnight>
so, it uses Xhtml to represte varibles?
- [23:43:23] <kingryan>
yes and simple data structures like lists and dictionaries/hashes
- [23:43:29] <kingryan>
but you can do other things with it, too
- [23:43:31] <JamieKnight>
okay,
- [23:43:49] <JamieKnight>
so it defines a way to store data in human and machinereadbale format,
- [23:44:01] <JamieKnight>
human in the browser, and convertable to json for machines?
- [23:45:00] <kingryan>
converatible to json, python lists+dictionaries, ruby arrays+hashes, php arrays and so on
- [23:45:08] <JamieKnight>
yeah,
- [23:45:21] <JamieKnight>
so, you could also get the data and convert it to XHMTL pages?
- [23:45:53] <JamieKnight>
are there any book which cover this on amazon?
- [23:45:58] <iand>
is it possible to go from xoxo to json?
- [23:46:08] <kingryan>
iand: yes
- [23:46:16] <JamieKnight>
you could use XLST
- [23:46:19] <iand>
what would the equiv. of <ul> be?
- [23:46:27] <JamieKnight>
array?
- [23:46:30] <KevinMarks>
well, that gets lossy
- [23:46:35] <iand>
sure
- [23:46:36] <JamieKnight>
multidimensual?
- [23:46:39] <KevinMarks>
it becomes a list
- [23:46:46] * JamieKnight is talking out of his bum bt
- [23:46:47] <KevinMarks>
in python it should in theory be a set
- [23:46:56] <iand>
<ol> maps directly to []
- [23:47:11] <KevinMarks>
but in practice reordering people's lists bothers them
- [23:47:28] <kingryan>
even ul's
- [23:47:49] <KevinMarks>
xoxo may transform dl order
- [23:47:54] * JamieKnight tends to find himself clining to his list, he has a list for everything
- [23:47:57] <KevinMarks>
if taken via python and bacl
- [23:48:00] <tantek>
dl has no order
- [23:48:00] <KevinMarks>
back
- [23:48:10] <tantek>
dl is semantically unordered
- [23:48:15] <JamieKnight>
can logical order be imposed on DL
- [23:48:26] <KevinMarks>
it has no semantic order but it has lexical order
- [23:48:35] <iand>
yeah, i agree dl is a bag of name/value not a list
- [23:48:51] <KevinMarks>
btu round-tripping through a true dictionary will not preserve that
- [23:48:52] <tantek>
and KevinMarks, its lexical order matters about as much as the excess whitespace, which is to say, not at all.
- [23:49:05] <JamieKnight>
IE: in a p if it is a dictonary then it is what is in the order it is written.
- [23:49:07] <KevinMarks>
I'm not arguing
- [23:49:25] <JamieKnight>
hmm, thats what you just wrote
- [23:49:27] <KevinMarks>
I'm just saying that some people get grumpy if you reorder their <dl>
- [23:49:49] <tantek>
oh i know that, but the "but" expression in your statement may imply to some that you are. ;)
- [23:50:37] <JamieKnight>
do you have any recomendations for book where i can learn about this sort of stuff, or get a grounding into the background of this all.
- [23:50:47] <KevinMarks>
brian wrote one
- [23:50:51] <KevinMarks>
well, a pdf
- [23:51:06] <JamieKnight>
okay,
- [23:51:11] <JamieKnight>
i think i have seen that,
- [23:51:18] <JamieKnight>
from o'rialy
- [23:51:26] <JamieKnight>
http://www.amazon.co.uk/DOM-Scripting-Design-JavaScript-Document/dp/1590595335/sr=1-4/qid=1171583385/ref=sr_1_4/026-5150961-5563655?ie=UTF8&s=books
- [23:51:44] <JamieKnight>
i have his other book and it is great, so i am considering this one.
- [23:54:21] <JamieKnight>
(i know that no the suda book i am reffering to a book what will cover the background to this)
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