IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [01:02:31] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("http://gmachina.com - gaming feeds in bulk")
  2. [01:04:03] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-152-250-163.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  3. [01:04:04] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  4. [01:04:57] <JamieKnight> hiya julianstahnke
  5. [01:05:07] <julianstahnke> hello
  6. [01:05:13] <JamieKnight> how be you?
  7. [01:05:32] <julianstahnke> fine, how are you?
  8. [01:06:24] <JamieKnight> i am sleepy, but good,
  9. [01:14:51] * craigo (n=craig_o@cust1608.vic01.dataco.com.au) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  10. [01:18:41] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13598 * EouiaYi * (+203) New Examples -
  11. [01:18:52] * craigo (n=craig_o@cust1608.vic01.dataco.com.au) has joined #microformats
  12. [01:19:37] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13599 * EouiaYi * (+26) New Examples -
  13. [01:21:43] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13600 * EouiaYi * (+21) New Examples -
  14. [01:22:59] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13601 * EouiaYi * (+0) New Examples -
  15. [01:42:27] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-152-250-163.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  16. [02:04:52] <vbgunz> #wrongplanet
  17. [02:05:03] <vbgunz> sorry
  18. [02:25:51] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host81-152-176-171.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]")
  19. [02:36:41] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-152-250-163.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  20. [02:36:42] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  21. [02:42:55] * OpenStandards (n=vir@AC8F6698.ipt.aol.com) Quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  30. [03:26:02] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  31. [03:26:03] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  32. [03:51:40] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-152-250-163.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
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  35. [05:01:42] <KevinMarks> http://blog.drinsama.de/erich/en/2007021501-icalendar-is-broken
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  44. [07:33:11] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  45. [07:33:11] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  46. [07:38:01] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Client Quit)
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  51. [08:25:53] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  52. [08:25:53] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  54. [08:43:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  55. [08:43:58] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  59. [09:20:04] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  70. [10:53:02] * AlexanderGraf (n=Ashe@M525P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  71. [10:53:02] <jibot> AlexanderGraf is a designer and webdeveloper from Innsbruck, Austria who writes on http://www.aetherworld.org/ and works for DERI Innsbruck (http://www.deri.org/)
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  82. [11:56:05] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  83. [11:58:56] * AlexanderGraf is now known as AlexanderGra|afk
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  85. [12:11:45] <jibot> woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
  86. [12:15:14] * danja (n=danja@host117-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
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  89. [12:48:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  90. [12:48:18] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  91. [12:54:38] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
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  95. [13:12:00] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  103. [14:22:58] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  106. [14:35:06] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  107. [15:36:56] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
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  114. [16:48:51] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  118. [17:11:46] <jibot> JamieKnight is jamie knight, a young web developer based in the UK. keeping his blog at http://jkg3.com
  119. [17:11:52] <JamieKnight> hiya
  120. [17:12:27] <JamieKnight> hiya vbgunz
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  126. [18:19:50] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  127. [18:20:01] <JamieKnight> hiya csarven
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  134. [18:39:14] <csarven> hi JamieKnight
  135. [18:39:31] <JamieKnight> how are you?
  136. [18:39:57] <csarven> good. its a good sunday :) you?
  137. [18:40:03] <JamieKnight> i am okay,
  138. [18:40:11] <JamieKnight> getting frustrated with the people in #css
  139. [18:44:03] <Prometheus^> #web is much better :)
  140. [18:44:07] <csarven> try efnet/css
  141. [18:44:27] <JamieKnight> thanks
  142. [18:44:52] <JamieKnight> they seem full of people who dont seem to understand the concept of the net
  143. [18:48:12] <Prometheus^> too much to handle, JamieKnight? ;)
  144. [18:48:53] <JamieKnight> yeah, somthing like that
  145. [18:49:00] <Prometheus^> from time to time they do tend to go a little off-topic, not to mention when someone mentions serving xhtml :D
  146. [18:49:21] <JamieKnight> when i asked one what they though about microformats they answer was "multiple spans is retarded"
  147. [18:49:38] <Prometheus^> who did you ask? :D
  148. [18:49:46] <JamieKnight> and they keep picking hole in my typing, because i answer things with a comma,
  149. [18:50:01] <JamieKnight> reisio: in CSS
  150. [18:50:07] <Prometheus^> ah, reisio
  151. [18:50:29] <Prometheus^> well, he feels it's unnecessary to pinpoint what style you are working on also, instead just use !important
  152. [18:50:36] <JamieKnight> Zoffix: dosent seem to nice or great either,
  153. [18:50:40] <Prometheus^> which just shows he has never worked with anyone but himself :)
  154. [18:50:52] <Prometheus^> JamieKnight: but really, you are asking all the wrong people
  155. [18:50:58] <Prometheus^> you should ask windrose or dorward ;)
  156. [18:51:43] <Prometheus^> some people in there endorse a workaround rather than actually figuring out the actual problem
  157. [18:51:50] <JamieKnight> to me they seem like idiots / amatures who dont relly understand much about wedesign
  158. [18:52:57] <JamieKnight> and i feel quite bad for saying that
  159. [18:53:42] <Prometheus^> I suppose that would depend on how you define a professional :)
  160. [18:53:59] <JamieKnight> somone who understands, and somone who actully knows what they are doing,
  161. [18:54:16] <JamieKnight> but is supose that sounds very hypocritacl form a 17 year old.
  162. [18:54:17] <Prometheus^> that's still very vague
  163. [18:54:32] <JamieKnight> i cant really describe what i mean.
  164. [18:54:36] <Prometheus^> I figured :)
  165. [18:54:53] <JamieKnight> it almost like the playground bully situation where the people all thing the same thing so they assume it is right.
  166. [18:55:26] <JamieKnight> if 30 people believe that dynamite is good to eat, and one person says its not, they are seen as an idiot,
  167. [18:55:45] <Prometheus^> hmm?
  168. [18:55:51] <Prometheus^> I'm not quite sure what you are refering to
  169. [18:56:01] <JamieKnight> if one person (me) is trying to give advice on usability and design, and they dont understand what i mean they think i am stupid.
  170. [18:56:44] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  171. [18:56:56] <JamieKnight> explaining that having a fluid width is good, but somthing like http://www.zentatsu.com/newdesign/ needs more distinktion between dections.
  172. [18:57:14] <JamieKnight> or declaring its all on one line, because they are looking at it on a 1024 + display
  173. [18:57:58] * JamieKnight is getting frustarted with his diffculties trying to explain things. stupid autism.
  174. [18:58:33] <Prometheus^> well, I would argue that sometimes it's better to not go fixed width
  175. [18:58:44] <Prometheus^> well, not necessarily better, but the only option
  176. [18:58:59] <Prometheus^> especially if you are not involved in the layout process :)
  177. [18:59:19] <JamieKnight> i wasent arguing about the fixed width,
  178. [18:59:35] <JamieKnight> my point was thier desing was hard to read, as on a large display the line lenths are huge,
  179. [18:59:40] <JamieKnight> and thus, hard to read,
  180. [19:00:18] <Prometheus^> I wouldn't want to be reading the site you linked anyway
  181. [19:00:18] <Prometheus^> it's just horrible
  182. [19:00:31] <Prometheus^> of course, that's just sample content, but it's not something I would like to read
  183. [19:00:34] <JamieKnight> he asked for advice so i gave him this as a start
  184. [19:00:55] <JamieKnight> http://jkg3.com/images/57.png
  185. [19:01:05] <JamieKnight> to which i was told i was retarded,
  186. [19:01:51] <Prometheus^> line heights, too
  187. [19:01:52] <JamieKnight> i was trying to explain that padding and space ake things cleaere
  188. [19:02:06] <JamieKnight> tis just frustating,
  189. [19:02:19] <Prometheus^> understandably
  190. [19:02:45] <JamieKnight> grrrr, my typing is stupidly rubbish today,
  191. [19:03:15] <Prometheus^> the paragraphs need margin, badly
  192. [19:03:27] <JamieKnight> it needs alot on the desing front,
  193. [19:03:30] <JamieKnight> and i tried to help,
  194. [19:03:46] <JamieKnight> this si the site of the mod. and example of "great" design http://www.zoffix.com/css/ie/extrawidth.shtml
  195. [19:04:01] <Prometheus^> I think the site is beyond saving, anyway
  196. [19:04:38] <Prometheus^> as is that zoffix site
  197. [19:04:53] <JamieKnight> if i click n the change style it gets sttuck thier
  198. [19:05:44] <JamieKnight> i supose its the "jamie not good at put downs thing again"
  199. [19:05:51] * woodss (i=w_laptop@modem-1607.hartebeest.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  200. [19:05:52] <jibot> woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
  201. [19:06:05] <woodss> hi all
  202. [19:06:06] <JamieKnight> hiya woodss
  203. [19:06:17] <woodss> hi
  204. [19:06:24] <JamieKnight> hey, i like your sites desing,
  205. [19:06:36] <woodss> ta
  206. [19:06:44] <JamieKnight> wipes the floor with mine,
  207. [19:06:49] <JamieKnight> very distintive,
  208. [19:07:22] <woodss> thanks, i only just relaunched it 2 weeks ago or so
  209. [19:07:37] <JamieKnight> i like it,
  210. [19:07:49] <JamieKnight> have you though about implimeting slimbox on the images?
  211. [19:07:57] <JamieKnight> it would work very well, and look great,
  212. [19:08:09] <woodss> i was going to use lightbox
  213. [19:08:33] <woodss> but then i figured there was no point as i dont want the admin headache of uploading too many images... simple is how i like it
  214. [19:08:59] <woodss> http://www.colabtees.com/designer.gif
  215. [19:09:01] <woodss> he he he
  216. [19:09:11] <woodss> thats like my entire life
  217. [19:10:04] <Prometheus^> JamieKnight: thanks for pointing out slimbox, I just googled it up, and it seems like a very interesting alternative to lightbox :)
  218. [19:10:15] <JamieKnight> slimbox is FAR lighter,
  219. [19:12:34] <Prometheus^> light is good for one thing, but another thing is that lightbox was conflicting with the site I intended to use it on because I had a different version of prototype
  220. [19:12:36] <Prometheus^> or something :/
  221. [19:12:46] <Prometheus^> but either way, this seems like a much better solution
  222. [19:13:57] <JamieKnight> slimbox is far lighter at only 7kb
  223. [19:14:14] <JamieKnight> prototype is way to heavy for most sites
  224. [19:14:51] <Prometheus^> well, the CMS we use loads prototype anyway, but the lightbox was using an ancient release of it
  225. [19:15:03] <Prometheus^> so I'd rather just have something small and compact for that purpose
  226. [19:16:00] <JamieKnight> hmmmm,
  227. [19:16:06] <JamieKnight> prototype is very heavy,
  228. [19:16:41] <Prometheus^> it is
  229. [19:17:03] * JamieKnight used dial up for 3 week a few months ago, and learnt to loth prototype.
  230. [19:18:24] <Prometheus^> ;)
  231. [19:18:51] <Prometheus^> I can imagine that
  232. [19:19:26] <JamieKnight> i am getting very very very frustarted with the people in CSS<
  233. [19:19:53] <JamieKnight> i am trying to explani that reliably vertical alignment in CSS isent very plauseable, and they have jumped on me for it
  234. [19:21:11] <JamieKnight> grrrrrrrr,
  235. [19:21:48] <Prometheus^> well, smallbox found it's way to my delicious list
  236. [19:22:10] <JamieKnight> slimbox is great,
  237. [19:22:16] <JamieKnight> moooltools is great genrally,
  238. [19:22:20] <JamieKnight> mootools rather
  239. [19:22:58] <JamieKnight> just got beeted for highlighting the fact he is a fucking idiot.
  240. [19:23:01] <JamieKnight> sod them
  241. [19:23:03] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host81-152-176-171.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has left #microformats
  242. [19:27:36] <woodss> hehe im on dialup at the minute... broadband has been off since 12th December - never use Orange/Wanadoo/Freeserve
  243. [19:27:55] <Prometheus^> freeserve :)
  244. [19:32:15] <woodss> heh
  245. [19:38:47] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  246. [19:49:06] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  247. [19:49:19] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  248. [20:15:11] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  249. [20:22:18] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) Quit ("bubeye")
  250. [20:27:11] * woodss (i=w_laptop@modem-1607.hartebeest.dialup.pol.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  251. [20:42:53] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host81-152-176-171.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  252. [20:42:53] <jibot> JamieKnight is jamie knight, a young web developer based in the UK. keeping his blog at http://jkg3.com
  253. [20:42:57] <JamieKnight> hiya,
  254. [20:43:17] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host81-152-176-171.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  255. [20:44:57] * JamieKnight_ (n=chatzill@host81-152-176-171.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  256. [20:45:26] <JamieKnight_> hiya,
  257. [20:45:57] * barlas (n=Aqeel@linuxpakistan/user/barlas) has joined #microformats
  258. [20:48:02] <Prometheus^> ahoy
  259. [20:48:27] <JamieKnight_> hiay,
  260. [20:48:36] <JamieKnight_> i have calmed down noww,
  261. [20:49:51] <JamieKnight_> how are you?
  262. [20:50:31] <Prometheus^> I'm fine thanks, implementing slimbox on a site
  263. [20:50:34] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  264. [20:50:34] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
  265. [20:51:08] <JamieKnight_> kewl,
  266. [20:51:09] <Prometheus^> for some reason I'm unable to close, though
  267. [20:51:18] <JamieKnight_> close?
  268. [20:51:37] <Prometheus^> yeah, the slimbox
  269. [20:51:51] <JamieKnight_> it wont close for you? probobly means that close function not working,
  270. [20:52:00] <JamieKnight_> have you tried a differnt mootools download?
  271. [20:52:11] <JamieKnight_> i tend to just grab everything and use it later,
  272. [20:52:20] <Prometheus^> well, I got a customized download per slimbox requirments
  273. [20:52:28] <Prometheus^> also, I seem to be getting this.events[type].keys has no properties for some reason
  274. [20:52:55] <Prometheus^> I guess I'll redownload moo
  275. [20:52:58] <JamieKnight_> yeah,
  276. [20:53:02] <JamieKnight_> grab the whole lot,
  277. [20:53:10] <JamieKnight_> it is simplar, and only adds about 5kb,
  278. [20:53:29] <JamieKnight_> if you are wanting to use more ajax effects it helps to.
  279. [20:54:03] <Prometheus^> I'll get everything but the plugins
  280. [20:54:13] <JamieKnight_> yeah,
  281. [20:54:15] <JamieKnight_> good move,
  282. [20:54:36] <Prometheus^> I'm working with a dedicated server that has caching so the size isn't really a big deal
  283. [20:54:57] <JamieKnight_> hmmmm,
  284. [20:55:06] <JamieKnight_> trust me, dial up change your view on thatm
  285. [20:55:32] <Prometheus^> yes, but let me tell you, if anyone is using this image gallery with a dialup, I feel really sorry for them
  286. [20:55:45] <Prometheus^> the originals of these images are 9-11mb each
  287. [20:55:50] <Prometheus^> they are for press use
  288. [20:55:59] <JamieKnight_> have you otimised them
  289. [20:56:12] <JamieKnight_> how about offering low res looks, then a download of the high res images?
  290. [20:56:12] <Prometheus^> I can't
  291. [20:56:16] <Prometheus^> it's not my site
  292. [20:56:22] <JamieKnight_> ah,
  293. [20:56:24] <JamieKnight_> ouch,
  294. [20:56:27] <Prometheus^> I'm offering them a 640x480 preview in slimbox
  295. [20:56:34] <Prometheus^> and a download link to the original in the caption
  296. [20:56:40] <JamieKnight_> that sound good,
  297. [20:56:45] <JamieKnight_> save them some hello!
  298. [20:56:51] <Prometheus^> a lot of it
  299. [20:56:54] <JamieKnight_> some downloading,
  300. [20:57:05] <Prometheus^> it takes me 45 seconds download a 12mb image with my broadband
  301. [20:57:14] <JamieKnight_> wow,
  302. [20:57:20] <Prometheus^> and I'm located in finland where the server is located
  303. [20:57:25] <JamieKnight_> sorry, that was a wish,
  304. [20:57:34] <JamieKnight_> a with rather,
  305. [20:57:44] <JamieKnight_> i have a really naff connection here,
  306. [20:58:07] <JamieKnight_> the cable out to here is aufal because its so old,
  307. [20:58:47] <Prometheus^> yeah, but it's ridiculous how long it takes to download these images
  308. [20:59:18] <JamieKnight_> can you speak to somone?
  309. [20:59:23] <JamieKnight_> ask about a redesign,
  310. [20:59:40] * JamieKnight_ wonders if this is more office politics style stuff
  311. [21:00:30] <Prometheus^> they just redesigned it 3 times
  312. [21:00:35] <Prometheus^> so there's nothing I can do :)
  313. [21:00:44] <JamieKnight_> hmmm,
  314. [21:00:55] <JamieKnight_> 3 seems to be a magic number for redesings,
  315. [21:01:09] <JamieKnight_> my site has just hit version 3 and i am getting hapier with it,
  316. [21:01:21] <JamieKnight_> i am getting annoyed with people asked where i got the template from,
  317. [21:03:41] <Prometheus^> interesting, I still get the same error according to firebug
  318. [21:03:49] <JamieKnight_> which one?
  319. [21:03:58] <Prometheus^> and still can't close the image :(
  320. [21:04:05] <Prometheus^> this.events[type].keys has no properties
  321. [21:04:21] <JamieKnight_> okay, there is an erro in you included liberies,
  322. [21:05:02] <JamieKnight_> do you get any firebig errors with this page? http://jkg3.com/Journal/80/to-bristol-and-back
  323. [21:05:15] <Prometheus^> nope
  324. [21:05:27] <JamieKnight_> do you want em to email you my set up?
  325. [21:05:43] <JamieKnight_> me rather,
  326. [21:05:51] <Prometheus^> sure thing
  327. [21:05:57] <Prometheus^> let me try one more thing though
  328. [21:06:04] <JamieKnight_> okay,
  329. [21:06:12] <JamieKnight_> just let me knwo if you want the files,
  330. [21:06:21] <JamieKnight_> (or you could just grab them)
  331. [21:07:22] <Prometheus^> I could grab them yeah :)
  332. [21:07:35] <Prometheus^> I tried removing slimbox js but it doesn't seem to be the problem
  333. [21:07:41] * Lachy (n=Lachlan@203-166-250-95.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit ("Leaving")
  334. [21:08:05] <JamieKnight_> can i see the page you are trying?
  335. [21:08:17] * JamieKnight_ is in love with slimbox
  336. [21:08:22] <Prometheus^> well, the one where I am using slimbox, is unfortunately behind closed doors
  337. [21:08:29] <JamieKnight_> ah,
  338. [21:08:34] <Prometheus^> is the mootools version you have version 1.0?
  339. [21:08:41] <Prometheus^> I guess it is since you are using slimbox
  340. [21:08:47] <JamieKnight_> one sec, will have a look,
  341. [21:08:51] <JamieKnight_> 83 i think,
  342. [21:09:11] <JamieKnight_> i think its release 83,
  343. [21:09:17] <JamieKnight_> i went for the prime numbers,
  344. [21:09:35] <Prometheus^> works just fine with slimbox though, it seems
  345. [21:09:42] <JamieKnight_> yep,
  346. [21:09:48] <JamieKnight_> release 83 workd well,
  347. [21:10:31] <Prometheus^> alright, I'll steal it off your site and see if it works ;)
  348. [21:11:26] <Prometheus^> actually, how can I just download the file :o
  349. [21:11:44] <JamieKnight_> urm,
  350. [21:11:48] <Prometheus^> right, just go to the js file and save as
  351. [21:11:48] <Prometheus^> :D
  352. [21:11:51] <JamieKnight_> you using firefox?
  353. [21:12:16] <JamieKnight_> yep,
  354. [21:12:45] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-89-70.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  355. [21:12:47] <Prometheus^> well, now it's not giving me the error
  356. [21:12:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  357. [21:12:55] <JamieKnight_> is it working?
  358. [21:13:09] <JamieKnight_> hiya KevinMarks hows tr going?
  359. [21:13:22] <Prometheus^> I'll give slimbox a shot now with a working copy
  360. [21:13:22] <JamieKnight_> its rather,
  361. [21:13:31] <JamieKnight_> :D
  362. [21:14:05] <KevinMarks> not at technorati any more
  363. [21:14:24] <JamieKnight_> sorry, tr was a it mistype,
  364. [21:14:27] <JamieKnight_> hows google?
  365. [21:14:36] * JamieKnight_ is getting use to a new keyboard.
  366. [21:14:47] <KevinMarks> Good, big, complex
  367. [21:14:55] <JamieKnight_> :D
  368. [21:15:33] * proloko (n=proloko@yarpen.mac.edu.pl) has joined #microformats
  369. [21:15:42] <Prometheus^> odd, now the slimbox doesn't seem to be working
  370. [21:16:10] <JamieKnight_> hmm,
  371. [21:16:15] <Prometheus^> I'll have to see if it's FF caching
  372. [21:16:30] <JamieKnight_> silly question i know, have you implimented the lightbox alt
  373. [21:16:43] <Prometheus^> alt?
  374. [21:16:54] <Prometheus^> I've the rel there
  375. [21:16:58] <JamieKnight_> you need to set lightbox as its rel,
  376. [21:17:04] <JamieKnight_> sorry, its rel, not alt,
  377. [21:17:31] <Prometheus^> yeah, I've the lightbox rel in place
  378. [21:17:38] <JamieKnight_> hmmm,
  379. [21:17:49] <JamieKnight_> have you tried it in a different browser
  380. [21:18:12] <Prometheus^> yes, just tried in safari
  381. [21:18:14] <Prometheus^> same problem
  382. [21:18:22] <JamieKnight_> your on a mac?
  383. [21:18:42] * JamieKnight_ mention how lucky you are and then gets back to thinking about your problem.
  384. [21:19:02] <Prometheus^> could you maybe mail me the copy of your mootools
  385. [21:19:10] <Prometheus^> it could be that something just borked with the download from firefox
  386. [21:19:10] <JamieKnight_> okay,
  387. [21:19:16] <JamieKnight_> i dont have PM right now,
  388. [21:19:18] <Prometheus^> joonas.bergius@gmail.com
  389. [21:19:24] <JamieKnight_> hey,
  390. [21:19:35] <JamieKnight_> you intrested in testing my hcard to gmail tool?
  391. [21:19:40] <Prometheus^> sure
  392. [21:20:05] <JamieKnight_> tis a bookmarklet, find it at www.jkg3.com/stuff
  393. [21:22:00] <Prometheus^> I wonder if it could be prototype and mootools conflicting or something
  394. [21:22:16] <JamieKnight_> ah, yeah, they somtime have issue,
  395. [21:22:28] <JamieKnight_> you got firebug yeah?
  396. [21:22:39] <Prometheus^> aye
  397. [21:23:00] <JamieKnight_> try useing the console to test the functions
  398. [21:24:22] <Prometheus^> right, it's prototype and mootools conflicting
  399. [21:24:26] <Prometheus^> what's causing this to happen
  400. [21:24:28] <Prometheus^> *sigh*
  401. [21:24:35] * Ashe`` (n=Ashe@62.47.204.185) has joined #microformats
  402. [21:24:36] * Ashe (n=Ashe@M294P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  403. [21:24:44] <JamieKnight_> okay, which bits of prototype can you disable,
  404. [21:25:07] <JamieKnight_> and what bit of moo, then see if you can disable them.
  405. [21:25:09] <Prometheus^> none really, because there's about 15 sites on the same server
  406. [21:25:19] <Prometheus^> they all share the same prototype library
  407. [21:25:25] <JamieKnight_> you use the smae libery,
  408. [21:25:42] <Prometheus^> I guess I have to use lightbox then :(
  409. [21:25:47] <JamieKnight_> we put each one with its own section like this, then site dont get unnsessey bloat.
  410. [21:25:54] <JamieKnight_> well, if prototype is there,
  411. [21:27:13] <Prometheus^> yeah, I was having problems with it too, though
  412. [21:27:21] <Prometheus^> but I guess I'm down for another round
  413. [21:27:39] <JamieKnight_> the only thing they share is the rel bit,
  414. [21:27:49] <JamieKnight_> so is there anything conflicting with it?
  415. [21:28:00] <Prometheus^> I guess they have common js
  416. [21:28:07] <Prometheus^> where one of them hijacks it
  417. [21:28:17] <JamieKnight_> hmmm,
  418. [21:35:35] * chimezie (n=chime@adsl-70-239-21-167.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
  419. [21:35:35] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
  420. [21:43:14] <Prometheus^> well, got lightbox working now
  421. [21:44:05] <JamieKnight_> well done,
  422. [21:46:36] <Prometheus^> it'll do for now
  423. [21:47:35] <Ashe``> Guys, I'm collecting really good arguments for a eRDF/RDFa vs microformats debate. Any strong opinions?
  424. [21:50:48] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
  425. [21:50:57] * amir (n=Miranda@gentoo/developer/amir) has joined #microformats
  426. [21:50:58] <jibot> amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
  427. [21:53:30] <JamieKnight_> microformats have are easiert to impliment for non specilist.
  428. [21:54:26] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1177615163.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #microformats
  429. [21:55:53] <tommorris> JamieKnight_: as one of the co-founders of Macroformats! that is something we are trying to fix. Think "microformat community principles meets the SemWeb".
  430. [21:56:19] <Ashe``> http://research.talis.com/2005/erdf/wiki/Main/RdfInHtml
  431. [21:56:28] <Ashe``> one could always argue that this is just as easy
  432. [21:56:35] <JamieKnight_> microformats are allredy easeir to impliment that RDF stuff,
  433. [21:56:57] <JamieKnight_> are there any RDF maker? liek the hCard generator,
  434. [21:57:16] <tommorris> No. That is what the macroformats project, which was founded at about 1pm today is intended to solve.
  435. [21:57:29] <JamieKnight_> i am confused.
  436. [21:57:59] <JamieKnight_> getting confused between microformats and macroformats
  437. [21:57:59] <tommorris> Macroformats is a silly name that me and Tom Croucher from Yahoo UK thought up to describe eRDF+GRDDL+SemWeb technology combined with the microformats community process.
  438. [21:58:15] <Ashe``> JamieKnight_ look at the url... basically it's like microformats in the syntax but is able to create rdf triples
  439. [21:58:27] <KevinMarks> I think that is about as annoying as calling ti web 3.0
  440. [21:58:32] <JamieKnight_> i dont know what an RDF triple is,
  441. [21:58:40] <tommorris> The idea is that the branding, the heavy-tech focus of RDF/SemWeb research and the general user-unfriendliness.
  442. [21:58:54] <tommorris> Kevin: it's like Web 3.0 but tongue-in-cheek.
  443. [21:59:00] <Ashe``> tomorris, is there any written stuff on that
  444. [21:59:14] <tommorris> No. I'm just publishing some.
  445. [21:59:17] * JamieKnight_ has a made urge to shamsh his head into the table reall hard.
  446. [21:59:17] <KevinMarks> Right, but pick a less confusing name
  447. [21:59:31] <tommorris> What's wrong with macroformats?
  448. [21:59:41] <KevinMarks> it's bad enough with microcontent around
  449. [21:59:44] <JamieKnight_> its was to much like microformats and will diliute both ideas,
  450. [22:00:07] * AGraf`` (n=Ashe@M294P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("I still remember the sun / Always warm on my back / Somehow it seems colder now.")
  451. [22:00:28] <JamieKnight_> as noether of which are that well know, i think less confusion would be better,
  452. [22:00:31] * AlexanderGraf (n=Ashe@M294P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  453. [22:00:31] <jibot> AlexanderGraf is a designer and webdeveloper from Innsbruck, Austria who writes on http://www.aetherworld.org/ and works for DERI Innsbruck (http://www.deri.org/)
  454. [22:00:49] <tommorris> I'm not sure confusion is what the problem will be.
  455. [22:01:24] <tommorris> The reason we called the effort macroformats was to basically say "we think microformats fucking rocks".
  456. [22:01:37] <JamieKnight_> but, instead it maks it confusing,
  457. [22:01:48] <JamieKnight_> i think it would scare people of,
  458. [22:01:57] <KevinMarks> well, the problem is that even with the founder of the web, the w3c organisation, and years fo haggling, the RDF movement is basically still mired in the sand
  459. [22:02:06] <tommorris> That's the point.
  460. [22:02:18] <JamieKnight_> i know next to nothing about RDF ect, and i got confused instantly,
  461. [22:02:24] <KevinMarks> so you want to come along and piggyback on our mojo?
  462. [22:02:40] <JamieKnight_> RDF seems to complicated, to me atm.
  463. [22:02:44] <tommorris> No. We are saying (in most instances) "don't use RDF, use microformats".
  464. [22:02:49] <JamieKnight_> intresting, but seems to unreal.
  465. [22:02:57] <JamieKnight_> the, instead advocate microformats.
  466. [22:03:07] <JamieKnight_> * then rather
  467. [22:03:25] <KevinMarks> Danny A has bone some interesting bridging between µF and semweb stuff
  468. [22:03:54] <JamieKnight_> is thier a good tutorial on RDF ect, anywhere?
  469. [22:03:56] <tommorris> Yep, and what Danny Ayers is doing is foundational to what macroformats is doing.
  470. [22:04:15] <tommorris> JamieKnight: http://conferences.opiumfield.com/barcamplondon2/talks/semweb/
  471. [22:04:17] <JamieKnight_> macroformats seem like reinventing the wheel to me,
  472. [22:04:21] <JamieKnight_> what do they do differently?
  473. [22:04:28] <AlexanderGraf> To me it doesn't
  474. [22:04:39] <AlexanderGraf> microformats solve a single problem,
  475. [22:04:41] <JamieKnight_> thnaks for the link,
  476. [22:04:54] <AlexanderGraf> RDF is way more complex
  477. [22:05:16] * JamieKnight_ might be suffering from FTS
  478. [22:05:51] <JamieKnight_> (First Technology Love Syndrome - not wanting to change form your first technology)
  479. [22:07:25] <JamieKnight_> what is an RDF triple, and what doe it have to do with 3?
  480. [22:08:03] <KevinMarks> it's a way to represent syllogisms
  481. [22:08:05] <KevinMarks> http://www.shirky.com/writings/semantic_syllogism.html
  482. [22:08:11] <AlexanderGraf> a rdf triple consists of a subject, a predicate and an object
  483. [22:08:16] <JamieKnight_> subject, predicate, object?
  484. [22:08:42] <AlexanderGraf> the subject identifes what object the triple is describing
  485. [22:08:57] <JamieKnight_> i am confused.
  486. [22:09:06] <AlexanderGraf> the predicate is the piece of data inside the object we are applying a value to
  487. [22:09:14] <AlexanderGraf> and the object is the actual value
  488. [22:09:27] <JamieKnight_> so, its mre like langiage than prgramming?
  489. [22:09:30] <tommorris> "my car" (subject) "has the color" (predicate) "red" (object)
  490. [22:09:31] <JamieKnight_> language rather,
  491. [22:09:38] <AlexanderGraf> its a semantic concept
  492. [22:09:44] <JamieKnight_> but the object it is about is your car,
  493. [22:09:49] <KevinMarks> it's like programming in prolog
  494. [22:09:51] <JamieKnight_> no the color red,
  495. [22:10:05] <KevinMarks> except eac element is defined by a URI
  496. [22:10:08] * barlas (n=Aqeel@linuxpakistan/user/barlas) Quit ("Goog Night everyone")
  497. [22:10:34] <JamieKnight_> why is the object red, when the sentence is about the car?
  498. [22:11:26] <tommorris> KevinMarks: macroformats isn't intended to 'steal mojo'. It's a cheeky website that a few people are working on to sex up RDF - to give to the SemWeb a little of what Ajax gave XMLHttpRequest.
  499. [22:13:05] <KevinMarks> I'm not objecting the idea, or the goal, so much as the confusing name
  500. [22:13:09] <KevinMarks> pick a better one
  501. [22:14:32] <tommorris> The name procedure is pretty simple - it's the first name that came to us. It's fun. And if someone can think of a better one (I suck at naming) and can stump up $30 to register new domains, then the name changes.
  502. [22:14:49] <KevinMarks> someone else has the domina
  503. [22:14:59] <AlexanderGraf> Oo
  504. [22:15:00] <tommorris> usemacroformats.com is reg'd.
  505. [22:15:09] <JamieKnight_> why didnt you ask the microformats comnity for permission,
  506. [22:15:19] <KevinMarks> they don't need permission,
  507. [22:15:25] <tommorris> Because sisters are doing it for themselves, Jamie.
  508. [22:15:35] <KevinMarks> but it is being deliberately obnoxious
  509. [22:15:38] <JamieKnight_> it seems a bit mean to me,
  510. [22:15:52] <JamieKnight_> i dont know what obnoxios means,
  511. [22:16:05] <tommorris> I don't think it is. It's meant in a sense of fun.
  512. [22:16:36] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  513. [22:16:39] <JamieKnight_> i dont think it comnicates that,
  514. [22:16:42] <AlexanderGraf> I think the goals are the same
  515. [22:16:48] <AlexanderGraf> Nobody wants to pick a fight
  516. [22:17:16] <KevinMarks> how do you follow the µf process wit RDF?
  517. [22:17:30] <KevinMarks> step 1 - see hwo people are representing the data already
  518. [22:17:36] <KevinMarks> oh look, no RDF
  519. [22:17:58] <AlexanderGraf> RDF is meant to be machine readable
  520. [22:18:02] <tommorris> Well, the basic plan is we find compelling use cases of pre-existing data that could be used by people in cases that are too domain-specific for the mf process.
  521. [22:18:27] <AlexanderGraf> so transforming html class/rev/rel to RDF triples makes it easier to reuse the data
  522. [22:18:30] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  523. [22:18:45] <KevinMarks> no it doesn't
  524. [22:18:48] <AlexanderGraf> The only problem i see with microformats is extendability
  525. [22:18:59] <KevinMarks> the problem is meaning, not data
  526. [22:19:02] <tommorris> No. Using eRDF - which uses html class/id/rev/rel/etc. - along with GRDDL.
  527. [22:19:08] <AlexanderGraf> every time someone thinks of a new microformat, all parsers will have to be rewritten
  528. [22:19:14] <JamieKnight_> no they dont,
  529. [22:19:24] <JamieKnight_> AlexanderGraf: all the main implimentation are modular,
  530. [22:19:26] <AlexanderGraf> they do, else they wont pick up the new format
  531. [22:19:29] <KevinMarks> yes
  532. [22:19:38] <JamieKnight_> no, very few actully use all the microformats,
  533. [22:19:46] <AlexanderGraf> yeah, sure
  534. [22:19:47] <JamieKnight_> things have to be updated,
  535. [22:19:48] <KevinMarks> because they can't pick it up until they have some local meaningful representation to map it inot
  536. [22:19:53] <JamieKnight_> but not totally rewritten,
  537. [22:19:56] <AlexanderGraf> that's what i'm saying
  538. [22:19:59] <KevinMarks> transforming it inot another data structrue doesn't help
  539. [22:20:06] <AlexanderGraf> it does
  540. [22:20:18] <KevinMarks> because no meaning inheres in the triples eitehr
  541. [22:20:21] <JamieKnight_> IE, if we add a new thing to hCard it wont brea hkit,
  542. [22:20:38] <AlexanderGraf> by grounding a knowledge base and using the RDF triples we can give each element semantic value
  543. [22:20:59] <JamieKnight_> how does it have semantic value? what si out there to understand this value?
  544. [22:21:03] <KevinMarks> no you can't
  545. [22:21:27] <AlexanderGraf> do you know KIM?
  546. [22:21:33] <KevinMarks> that is the core myth
  547. [22:21:56] <AlexanderGraf> you are saying semantic knowledge stores are a myth?
  548. [22:22:04] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
  549. [22:22:21] <JamieKnight_> tools dont write themselfs,
  550. [22:22:23] * proloko (n=proloko@yarpen.mac.edu.pl) Quit (":: ( www.proloko.fe.pl :: )")
  551. [22:22:42] <KevinMarks> I'm saying that transforming into predicates does not imbue data with meaning
  552. [22:23:03] <AlexanderGraf> no but if a tool has access to the knowledge store it can understand the real world meaning of the predicates
  553. [22:23:05] <tommorris> The point is that domain-specific information and niche formats won't/don't work through the microformat process well.
  554. [22:23:27] <JamieKnight_> no, but how would they work better though "macroformats"
  555. [22:23:43] <KevinMarks> but ti's not a data representation problme
  556. [22:23:47] <JamieKnight_> and, if there is little pre use, then it is not waht the aims of microfrmats were,
  557. [22:23:53] <KevinMarks> it's an agreeing on meaning problem
  558. [22:24:05] <AlexanderGraf> no it's not
  559. [22:24:10] <AlexanderGraf> meaning is clearly defined
  560. [22:24:17] <JamieKnight_> defined in what?
  561. [22:24:25] <AlexanderGraf> you're annotating data, that defines the meaning
  562. [22:24:28] <JamieKnight_> other things which have no meaning?
  563. [22:24:30] <JamieKnight_> okay,
  564. [22:24:41] <KevinMarks> there is no meaning without agreement
  565. [22:24:47] <JamieKnight_> I am jamie, i have HFA == autism == aspergers syndrome == kanner
  566. [22:25:01] <AlexanderGraf> so?
  567. [22:25:04] <tommorris> There are *existing RDF schema* that represent knowledge that people use widely, and using eRDF/GRDDL to do this seems a sensible way.
  568. [22:25:05] <JamieKnight_> if you got ot the USA and say i have kanner syndrome they wont under sand.
  569. [22:25:43] <JamieKnight_> tommorris: how dose this solved the domain specific problem?
  570. [22:25:50] <AlexanderGraf> JamieKnight_: That's why you are annotating the data. The rdf knowledge store now knows all the synonymes and homonymes for that word.
  571. [22:26:12] <AlexanderGraf> remember, RDF is not for the user, it's for the machine
  572. [22:26:15] <JamieKnight_> but differnt thinghave varying meaning,
  573. [22:26:23] <AlexanderGraf> like?
  574. [22:26:30] <JamieKnight_> autism
  575. [22:26:30] <KevinMarks> synonyms are soft
  576. [22:26:35] <JamieKnight_> what does that mean to you~?
  577. [22:27:05] <JamieKnight_> autism in a autism chat room means very different things to the adverage person,
  578. [22:27:06] <AlexanderGraf> i can give you the definition from pschyrembel
  579. [22:27:17] <JamieKnight_> but autism is alot more than the definition,
  580. [22:27:27] <JamieKnight_> and there are about 7 definitations as autism is not well defined.
  581. [22:27:30] <tommorris> KevinMarks: what do you/the non-SemWeb folks lose by putting GRDDL transformations on their microformats?
  582. [22:27:40] <AlexanderGraf> how is that relevant to semantic web knowledge
  583. [22:27:46] <AlexanderGraf> we're not annotating every word
  584. [22:27:53] <AlexanderGraf> we're annotating concepts
  585. [22:27:55] <KevinMarks> you can transform thme how you like, no loss
  586. [22:28:00] <JamieKnight_> autism is a concempt
  587. [22:28:05] <AlexanderGraf> no it's not
  588. [22:28:12] <AlexanderGraf> it's a subconcept of a concept
  589. [22:28:21] <JamieKnight_> I dont see the point in doing somthing else, which is going to make things more confusing,
  590. [22:28:25] <JamieKnight_> whats the concept?
  591. [22:28:32] <AlexanderGraf> microformats don't solve the autism problem
  592. [22:28:33] <JamieKnight_> autism the subcocept of?
  593. [22:28:39] <AlexanderGraf> and eRDF won't, either
  594. [22:28:40] <JamieKnight_> micrformats allow me to add other tags
  595. [22:28:43] <AlexanderGraf> it's not supposed to
  596. [22:28:46] <AlexanderGraf> tags?
  597. [22:28:48] <AlexanderGraf> like?
  598. [22:28:57] <AlexanderGraf> rel="autism"?
  599. [22:29:01] <JamieKnight_> on my blog i have "autism" and "asperger"
  600. [22:29:08] <JamieKnight_> and wrongplanet,
  601. [22:29:16] <AlexanderGraf> eRDF allows you to do the same
  602. [22:29:32] <JamieKnight_> why do it on eRDF not microformats,
  603. [22:29:40] <JamieKnight_> with microformats i add a couple of rel tag,
  604. [22:29:47] <JamieKnight_> what is the equivilent in eRDF?
  605. [22:29:50] <AlexanderGraf> why do it on microformats, not eRDF
  606. [22:29:52] <AlexanderGraf> rel tags
  607. [22:29:57] <AlexanderGraf> it's the same
  608. [22:30:06] <JamieKnight_> what supports eRDF,
  609. [22:30:07] <AlexanderGraf> only you add a profile to the <head>
  610. [22:30:12] <JamieKnight_> ah,
  611. [22:30:16] <tommorris> And you add the schemas to the head too.
  612. [22:30:19] <JamieKnight_> dont need that for microformars,
  613. [22:30:26] <JamieKnight_> dont need that for microformats,
  614. [22:30:34] <AlexanderGraf> yeah so your argument for microformats is
  615. [22:30:38] <AlexanderGraf> one URL less
  616. [22:30:38] <JamieKnight_> microformats though,
  617. [22:30:39] <AlexanderGraf> ?
  618. [22:30:51] <JamieKnight_> no, my argument is that they are easeir to implment,
  619. [22:30:57] <AlexanderGraf> Oo
  620. [22:31:07] <JamieKnight_> earlier today i was talking in the CSS channel and i get very very annoyed at some people,
  621. [22:31:15] <AlexanderGraf> they are easier to implement because you don't have to edit your <head> tag?
  622. [22:31:24] <JamieKnight_> yes,
  623. [22:31:25] <AlexanderGraf> that's ridicolous
  624. [22:31:31] <JamieKnight_> some pople wont have accsess to the head code,
  625. [22:31:39] <AlexanderGraf> <head profile="...">
  626. [22:31:47] <JamieKnight_> yes, so what if you dont have accsess?
  627. [22:31:54] <JamieKnight_> like many CSS systems,
  628. [22:32:04] <AlexanderGraf> so what if you don't have access to the html source
  629. [22:32:13] <JamieKnight_> you can add a rel tag into the body,
  630. [22:32:14] <AlexanderGraf> i mean, that's not an argument
  631. [22:32:17] <JamieKnight_> with nothing else,
  632. [22:32:31] <AlexanderGraf> yeah, say you only have a wysiwyg editor
  633. [22:32:33] <AlexanderGraf> and no code
  634. [22:32:34] <AlexanderGraf> ...
  635. [22:32:50] <KevinMarks> you can embed microformats inside HTML without having to edit the head, which means they can travel in HTML envelopes such as feeds and email
  636. [22:33:05] <JamieKnight_> KevinMarks: makes a better argument that me,
  637. [22:33:11] <JamieKnight_> but it sums up what i mean,
  638. [22:33:17] <AlexanderGraf> ok, i get your point
  639. [22:33:37] <tommorris> This is totally missing the point. There is no good argument against adoption of GRDDL and/or eRDF as appropriate. That point being granted, an alternative community process for RDF-centered development seems appropriate.
  640. [22:33:42] <JamieKnight_> tryign to get developer to understand microformats is hard enough,
  641. [22:33:55] <JamieKnight_> but why call it macroformats?
  642. [22:33:59] <tommorris> For a laugh.
  643. [22:34:06] <AlexanderGraf> the name so doesn't matter
  644. [22:34:09] <JamieKnight_> that would mean more specific than microfromats?
  645. [22:34:14] <AlexanderGraf> no
  646. [22:34:18] <AlexanderGraf> more general
  647. [22:34:31] <tommorris> Yep. And more bloated. :)
  648. [22:34:38] <KevinMarks> call them megaformats
  649. [22:34:50] <JamieKnight_> exData,
  650. [22:34:52] <KevinMarks> macaroniformats
  651. [22:35:00] <AlexanderGraf> What has the name got to do with the technology
  652. [22:35:09] <KevinMarks> spaghettiformats
  653. [22:35:22] <JamieKnight_> macro and micro are way to similar, you are going to make it even harder for people to take hold of the technologies,
  654. [22:35:32] <AlexanderGraf> look
  655. [22:35:34] <tommorris> Nothing, but the technology doesnt have much to do with it either. The point is *making it easy for the goddam users* which is what the RDF/SemWeb people don't focus on.
  656. [22:35:44] <JamieKnight_> making it easier?
  657. [22:35:57] <JamieKnight_> RDF is very complicated, compared to microformats,
  658. [22:36:07] <JamieKnight_> you add some sematic tag name we can understand,
  659. [22:36:09] <JamieKnight_> thats it,
  660. [22:36:12] <tommorris> Yes, by providing decent documentation, example code and tools - like the microformats do for non-RDF-centered-embedded-data development.
  661. [22:36:21] <AlexanderGraf> RDFa is in the works. The w3c will not make microformats a recommendation. Following your argument i could say that microformats are making adoption of new technology harder.
  662. [22:36:27] <tommorris> Yes, and then we have long arguments about "name" versus "nom".
  663. [22:36:46] <KevinMarks> the w3c is not relevant
  664. [22:36:52] <AlexanderGraf> actually
  665. [22:36:56] <KevinMarks> microformats use existing standards
  666. [22:36:58] <AlexanderGraf> microformats.org is not relevant
  667. [22:36:59] <tommorris> RDFa isn't worth talking about *until* XHTML2 is ratified.
  668. [22:37:04] <vbgunz> microformats make what harder?
  669. [22:37:21] <JamieKnight_> RDF is more complicated,
  670. [22:37:25] <AlexanderGraf> tommorris: of course, i was just throwing the same argument towards him
  671. [22:37:46] <AlexanderGraf> vbgunz: nothing, i was just pointing out how ridiculous the argument was
  672. [22:37:52] <tommorris> JamieKnight: so you keep saying. That's why I'm trying to come up with a solution rather than just bitching.
  673. [22:38:01] <AlexanderGraf> JamieKnight_: eRDF is not a fully featured RDF
  674. [22:38:31] <AlexanderGraf> http://research.talis.com/2005/erdf/wiki/Main/RdfInHtml
  675. [22:38:34] <AlexanderGraf> look at that
  676. [22:38:40] <AlexanderGraf> to get the concept
  677. [22:38:41] <JamieKnight_> tommorris: i am not bithching i am trying to pooint out that RDF is more complicated that microformats, and it is hard enough to get microfromats into people heads.
  678. [22:39:06] <JamieKnight_> AlexanderGraf: i need to read research paperers to under stand the concept.
  679. [22:39:11] <AlexanderGraf> we're NOT advocating the use of the whole RDF syntax in HTML
  680. [22:39:16] <JamieKnight_> with microformats i add a sematic classname,
  681. [22:39:24] <vbgunz> the only reason it is hard to get microformats into the heads of people is because it is so subtle, it's almost invisible
  682. [22:39:27] <AlexanderGraf> wtf
  683. [22:39:31] <JamieKnight_> rel="tag"
  684. [22:39:33] <JamieKnight_> done,
  685. [22:39:39] <AlexanderGraf> JamieKnight_: <div><span class="dc-creator" title="Ian Davis">I</span> wrote this</div>
  686. [22:39:48] <AlexanderGraf> how is that HARDER than microformats
  687. [22:39:54] <JamieKnight_> what is in the head?
  688. [22:40:00] <JamieKnight_> what else doe the page need?
  689. [22:40:08] <AlexanderGraf> nothing
  690. [22:40:18] <JamieKnight_> so where is the schema you were talking about?
  691. [22:40:28] <AlexanderGraf> <head profile="http://purl.org/NET/erdf/profile"> if you want to make it discoverable for a machine
  692. [22:40:32] <JamieKnight_> ah,
  693. [22:40:36] <JamieKnight_> there you go,
  694. [22:40:36] <AlexanderGraf> but it's not *required*
  695. [22:40:38] <JamieKnight_> more stuff,
  696. [22:40:45] <AlexanderGraf> ONE line
  697. [22:40:48] <AlexanderGraf> not "more stuff"
  698. [22:40:49] <JamieKnight_> the tools are allredy there to find the micformats
  699. [22:40:51] <JamieKnight_> yes,
  700. [22:40:52] <JamieKnight_> but there is more,
  701. [22:41:00] <AlexanderGraf> JamieKnight_: No they arent
  702. [22:41:03] <JamieKnight_> you have to know you need that for it to be discoverable,
  703. [22:41:09] <JamieKnight_> hkit
  704. [22:41:11] <tommorris> But from the user's point of view, it makes no difference whether the underlying data structure is RDF or S-expressions or smoke signals. What microformats did right is to have readable specifications and lots and lots of example. What exactly is wrong with this?
  705. [22:41:22] <AlexanderGraf> if a new microformat comes out, you have to modify the tools
  706. [22:41:28] <JamieKnight_> no you dont,
  707. [22:41:51] <AlexanderGraf> how would you discover rel="foo" without knowing there /is/ a "foo"
  708. [22:41:51] <JamieKnight_> how do i have to modify operator to be able to continue using hCard?
  709. [22:42:07] <JamieKnight_> because the tool is there,
  710. [22:42:11] <AlexanderGraf> no
  711. [22:42:12] <JamieKnight_> for example perator,
  712. [22:42:15] <JamieKnight_> just looks,
  713. [22:42:21] <AlexanderGraf> i propose a new microformat
  714. [22:42:21] <JamieKnight_> if it rel tag, use it.
  715. [22:42:25] <tommorris> That's not the point. If a new microformat comes out, Operator needs to be upgraded. If a new RDF schema comes out, Redland reads it just fine.
  716. [22:42:28] <AlexanderGraf> rel="blah"
  717. [22:42:38] <AlexanderGraf> operator needs to be updated
  718. [22:42:41] <AlexanderGraf> like tommorris said
  719. [22:42:46] <vbgunz> i know what he saying... if a new class or id makes it into a microformat, tools will have to be upgraded... is this correct?
  720. [22:42:51] <AlexanderGraf> yes
  721. [22:42:58] <AlexanderGraf> correct
  722. [22:43:02] <AlexanderGraf> not so with eRDF
  723. [22:43:09] <JamieKnight_> yes it reads it but does it do anything useful with it,
  724. [22:43:16] <AlexanderGraf> yes
  725. [22:43:29] <AlexanderGraf> the schema changes and you will get new RDF triples with semantic meaning
  726. [22:43:30] <vbgunz> wow, self upgrading tools is the bomb diggy :)
  727. [22:43:31] <JamieKnight_> you need to add extra code, and you need to understand a whole lot more than you do to use microformats,
  728. [22:43:41] <AlexanderGraf> no and no
  729. [22:43:45] <AlexanderGraf> extra code is one url
  730. [22:43:51] <AlexanderGraf> everybody can do that
  731. [22:43:53] <JamieKnight_> it is still extar code,
  732. [22:43:55] <AlexanderGraf> and its not mandatory
  733. [22:43:59] <AlexanderGraf> its NOT mandatory
  734. [22:44:06] <JamieKnight_> and for the more advanced options you will need mroe than the one line of code,
  735. [22:44:17] <AlexanderGraf> its just so you dont have to modify code later like you do with microformats
  736. [22:44:17] <JamieKnight_> but to use it to its complete potentioan you have to use it
  737. [22:44:26] <AlexanderGraf> <JamieKnight_> and for the more advanced options you will need mroe than the one line of code,
  738. [22:44:27] <tommorris> You don't need to understand anything beyond the copy and paste command of your operating system. And if you don't understand that, you aren't qualified to be publishing web pages.
  739. [22:44:30] <AlexanderGraf> this
  740. [22:44:35] <AlexanderGraf> is just PLAIN wrong
  741. [22:44:50] <AlexanderGraf> there is not more than the schemas
  742. [22:44:56] <JamieKnight_> tommorris: you need to know why you are copying and pasting,
  743. [22:45:03] <JamieKnight_> otherswise you are likley to get the wrong thing,
  744. [22:45:07] <vbgunz> AlexanderGraf: maybe you're not getting your point across clearly enough... do you have a side by side example or something?
  745. [22:45:15] <AlexanderGraf> JamieKnight_: you don't have any arguments, do you?
  746. [22:45:22] <tommorris> Yes, and you need to know that with microformats. "foaf-name" and "fn" aren't that hard to comprehend.
  747. [22:45:29] <AlexanderGraf> vbgunz: english isn't my native language, sorry
  748. [22:45:35] <vbgunz> ahh
  749. [22:45:36] <AlexanderGraf> vbgunz: <JamieKnight_> and for the more advanced options you will need mroe than the one line of code,
  750. [22:45:42] <AlexanderGraf> halfway through the page
  751. [22:45:48] <JamieKnight_> my argument is that you need to have more things to use it.
  752. [22:45:59] <JamieKnight_> to use reltag, to it full potensioan i just need re="tag"
  753. [22:46:06] <JamieKnight_> that rel="tag" rather,
  754. [22:46:09] <AlexanderGraf> JamieKnight_: no, those "more things" boil down to one. bloody. url.
  755. [22:46:22] <AlexanderGraf> JamieKnight_: you can use rel="tag" with eRDF too
  756. [22:46:28] <tommorris> This is not an argument worth having. SemWebbers are embracing microformats.
  757. [22:46:53] <JamieKnight_> i would be happy to embrace sem web stuff if it didnt try and steal the micrformats name, and ideas,
  758. [22:46:57] <AlexanderGraf> the schema is just so a machine can understand the semantic /concept/ of what a tag is.
  759. [22:46:59] <tommorris> You are arguing over where you place your complexity and information - in the parser or in the document. There is no logical conclusion to the discussion except personal preference.
  760. [22:47:14] <tommorris> How is a humourous name "stealing", ffs?
  761. [22:47:18] <JamieKnight_> you need to write a pharser once,
  762. [22:47:24] <JamieKnight_> in a document every time
  763. [22:47:25] <AlexanderGraf> I'm agreeing with tommorris
  764. [22:47:32] <AlexanderGraf> JamieKnight_: i concur
  765. [22:47:40] <AlexanderGraf> you need to write a documents ONCE.
  766. [22:47:44] <AlexanderGraf> add a schema ONCE
  767. [22:47:48] <AlexanderGraf> and write the parser ONCE
  768. [22:48:01] <AlexanderGraf> with microformats you write the parser for every single format
  769. [22:48:06] <JamieKnight_> tommorris: dont you understand that by using the name macroformats you are diluting its brand and aiding to confusiion,
  770. [22:48:18] <AlexanderGraf> microformats are a "brand"?
  771. [22:48:33] <AlexanderGraf> since when?
  772. [22:48:36] <JamieKnight_> somone who would be using microformats / macro formats could mispless it in a search engine and be led to believe somthing completely different
  773. [22:48:50] <JamieKnight_> IE microformats are known as microformats so there fore its the brand.
  774. [22:49:02] <tommorris> It's a temporary name. It's funny. Once some professional brand manager wanker gets ahold of it, then it can change. Bla bla bla. The important bit is the substance.
  775. [22:49:05] <JamieKnight_> so, if you were making and advertisement you waould call them microfromats
  776. [22:49:22] <AlexanderGraf> if someone doesn't uderstand the different concepts of macro and micro, he should not be allowed to use the internet anyway
  777. [22:49:41] <JamieKnight_> AlexanderGraf: that goes agaist the whole point of the net what you just said,
  778. [22:49:50] <JamieKnight_> the internet ANYONE should be able to use,
  779. [22:50:00] <tommorris> We live in a world where people watch television shows more complicated than the average pocket calculator. People can understand a little dry humour. Give them credit, for christs sake.
  780. [22:50:02] <AlexanderGraf> that was just being extreme and you know it
  781. [22:50:10] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1177615163.dsl.bell.ca) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  782. [22:50:22] <JamieKnight_> no, id didnt know that,
  783. [22:50:30] <AlexanderGraf> oh ok
  784. [22:51:01] <AlexanderGraf> anyway, what i'm saying, people who are interested in macro/microformats have enough brains to know how macro differs from micro
  785. [22:51:02] <JamieKnight_> i am feeling very angery that by using the name macroformats, you are not distinguishing it form micrformats enought which will lead to confusion,
  786. [22:51:22] <AlexanderGraf> and as tommorris said, it's just a name
  787. [22:51:25] <tommorris> Still, the only real objection to macroformats is the name and the usual anti-SemWeb stuff?
  788. [22:51:30] <AlexanderGraf> call it erdf for the moment
  789. [22:51:31] <JamieKnight_> and, to use thease RDF things, you do require accsess to the head to use ti to its highest potensial.
  790. [22:51:41] <AlexanderGraf> no ffs
  791. [22:51:43] <JamieKnight_> i am not anti semweb,
  792. [22:51:54] <AlexanderGraf> why do you keep repeating that head profile bullshit
  793. [22:51:56] <AlexanderGraf> i said
  794. [22:51:58] <JamieKnight_> i am just frustarted that you cannot see how they are more complicated,
  795. [22:51:59] <AlexanderGraf> it's optional
  796. [22:52:00] <AlexanderGraf> ffs
  797. [22:52:10] <AlexanderGraf> you just need it for the full potential
  798. [22:52:17] <JamieKnight_> exactaly
  799. [22:52:27] <JamieKnight_> " <AlexanderGraf> you just need it for the full potential"
  800. [22:52:30] <JamieKnight_> that is my point,
  801. [22:52:36] <AlexanderGraf> the full potential which microformats DONT EVEN HAVE
  802. [22:52:36] <JamieKnight_> not evryone has accsess ot the head,
  803. [22:52:42] <AlexanderGraf> so?
  804. [22:52:47] <KevinMarks> you still need a parser to go from the RDF representation back into a meaningful one
  805. [22:52:54] <AlexanderGraf> they only get the same as they would get with microformats
  806. [22:53:10] <AlexanderGraf> i can manually write an eRDF parser
  807. [22:53:19] <AlexanderGraf> just like i'd do for microformats
  808. [22:53:20] <JamieKnight_> but they dont have to accsess the head, and they dont have to leanr all about RDF ect,
  809. [22:53:23] <vbgunz> AlexanderGraf: I don't get it. Microformats are great. maybe I missed it but what makes RDF greater?
  810. [22:53:33] <tommorris> KevinMarks: it's about moving the complexity to where people feel comfortable. Choice in this area is *good*.
  811. [22:53:41] <JamieKnight_> i dont see the point of adding more "compitition"
  812. [22:53:54] <JamieKnight_> microformats do what they are designed to do, and do it well,
  813. [22:53:59] <tommorris> It's not about adding competition, for about the 956th time.
  814. [22:54:04] <AlexanderGraf> JamieKnight_: I'm not discussing this with you any longer... you keep repeating this head profile bullshit which doesn't make any sense
  815. [22:54:10] <KevinMarks> I'm not aruing about that
  816. [22:54:18] <JamieKnight_> it looks that way to me,
  817. [22:54:21] <KevinMarks> if you call them macaroniformats, I'l be happy
  818. [22:54:28] <KevinMarks> thats actually funny
  819. [22:54:29] <JamieKnight_> you called it macroformats,
  820. [22:54:57] <JamieKnight_> you do require accsess to the head for full potenioal,
  821. [22:55:12] <AlexanderGraf> vbgunz: eRDF is just as simple as microformats. but, using a head profile a machine can transform the whole XML to rdf triples. now you can use the full potential of grounded knowledge or triple stores.
  822. [22:55:16] <tommorris> One of the reasons I chose macroformats is that the word is already in circulation in a meaningless way.
  823. [22:55:18] <JamieKnight_> i would also see it as compitiontion because you have to chose one or the other,
  824. [22:55:25] <tommorris> No you don't.
  825. [22:55:29] <AlexanderGraf> no you don'T
  826. [22:55:35] <tommorris> You can use eRDF and microformats on the same page quite easily.
  827. [22:55:40] <JamieKnight_> so, you expect people to write out double the amount of tags
  828. [22:55:50] <AlexanderGraf> ........
  829. [22:55:53] <JamieKnight_> so next time i write an autism tag, i also need to use your tagging system to?
  830. [22:55:58] <KevinMarks> I'm getting structured blogging flashbacks
  831. [22:55:59] <AlexanderGraf> so, YOU expect people to write out double the amount of tags
  832. [22:56:13] <tommorris> No. I don't expect people to write out anything. They can do whatever they want on their webpage. It's about giving them a choice.
  833. [22:56:20] <AlexanderGraf> so next time I write an autism tag, i also need to use YOUR tagging system to?
  834. [22:56:23] <JamieKnight_> choice is good,
  835. [22:56:35] <JamieKnight_> but, if you want to do both you end up with data replication,
  836. [22:56:38] <AlexanderGraf> its the same the other way round
  837. [22:56:45] <AlexanderGraf> eRDF is there, microformats are there
  838. [22:56:53] <AlexanderGraf> what makes this
  839. [22:56:53] <AlexanderGraf> <p id="ian" class="-foaf-Person">I am a person</p>
  840. [22:56:57] <tommorris> How is <span class="fn foaf-name">Tom Morris</span> data replication?
  841. [22:56:58] <AlexanderGraf> worse than an hcard?
  842. [22:57:15] <JamieKnight_> tommorris: that example sems fine,
  843. [22:57:23] <JamieKnight_> but will you RDF work with the extra FN there?
  844. [22:57:26] <JamieKnight_> all of the,?
  845. [22:57:29] <AlexanderGraf> yes
  846. [22:57:34] <tommorris> Yup. Uses XSL/GRDDL standards.
  847. [22:57:37] <JamieKnight_> or will you need to rewrite them?
  848. [22:57:46] <AlexanderGraf> erdf usses GRDDL standards and dublin core elements
  849. [22:57:49] <JamieKnight_> okay fine,
  850. [22:57:53] <AlexanderGraf> no rewriting on either side
  851. [22:57:59] <JamieKnight_> thats good,
  852. [22:58:09] <KevinMarks> but you can't define a mapping that reads fn and maps it into foaf-name?
  853. [22:58:13] <JamieKnight_> I dont think the name is right, but it seems the concept is okay
  854. [22:58:29] <AlexanderGraf> KevinMarks: you could do it the other way round though
  855. [22:58:42] <JamieKnight_> i wouldent see so many people implmenting it as it Rewuire more knowlage,
  856. [22:58:42] <AlexanderGraf> that's what makes RDF more powerful
  857. [22:58:52] <JamieKnight_> most web dev people dont even know what semantic means
  858. [22:59:02] <AlexanderGraf> JamieKnight_: where do you need more knowledge???
  859. [22:59:05] <JamieKnight_> be back in 7 minites
  860. [22:59:11] <tommorris> IT DOESN'T REQUIRE MORE KNOWLEDGE, FFS!
  861. [22:59:18] <AlexanderGraf> -foaf-Person requires more knowledge than writing fn?
  862. [22:59:24] <JamieKnight_> you do because you need to know to add XYC to head,
  863. [22:59:30] <AlexanderGraf> thats ridiculous...
  864. [22:59:32] <AlexanderGraf> .........
  865. [22:59:32] <JamieKnight_> to use it to its full potesial,
  866. [22:59:32] <KevinMarks> why can't you map fn into foaf-name ?
  867. [22:59:37] <AlexanderGraf> NO YOU BLOODY DONT
  868. [22:59:41] <AlexanderGraf> <JamieKnight_> you do because you need to know to add XYC to head,
  869. [22:59:41] <tommorris> How is pasting an element in to an HTML file "knowledge"?
  870. [22:59:42] <AlexanderGraf> this
  871. [22:59:42] <KevinMarks> you're supposed to have the big abstract mapping engine
  872. [22:59:47] <JamieKnight_> " <AlexanderGraf> you just need it for the full potential"
  873. [22:59:54] <AlexanderGraf> is the friggin 5th time you'Re repeating this
  874. [22:59:56] <AlexanderGraf> so what?
  875. [23:00:02] <JamieKnight_> you need to know to repeat it.
  876. [23:00:07] <JamieKnight_> you need to know its needed,
  877. [23:00:12] <AlexanderGraf> huh?
  878. [23:00:14] <AlexanderGraf> what?
  879. [23:00:19] <AlexanderGraf> it's NOT needed
  880. [23:00:29] <JamieKnight_> " <AlexanderGraf> you just need it for the full potential"
  881. [23:00:46] <AlexanderGraf> it's just there so a semantic searchengine/a semantic tool can understand the bloody CONCEPT of your bloody rel="tag"
  882. [23:00:48] <JamieKnight_> who would write aa page which cannot reach it potential.
  883. [23:00:53] <AlexanderGraf> ........
  884. [23:00:54] <AlexanderGraf> ok
  885. [23:01:02] <AlexanderGraf> you just disqualified microformats
  886. [23:01:05] <JamieKnight_> i am going to be late,
  887. [23:01:10] <AlexanderGraf> since they don't offer that potential AT ALL
  888. [23:01:22] <JamieKnight_> but you rsaying this is not a compition,
  889. [23:01:28] <AlexanderGraf> without the head profile, eRDF is exactly the same as microformats
  890. [23:01:28] <KevinMarks> AlexanderGraf
  891. [23:01:33] <JamieKnight_> if you want to tag somthing, or mark somthing up than tahts it,
  892. [23:01:41] <JamieKnight_> no extra junk,
  893. [23:01:43] <AlexanderGraf> with the profile, eRDF is more powerful
  894. [23:01:56] <JamieKnight_> i would love to stay and listen to more of your stuff, but i have to go.
  895. [23:01:56] <KevinMarks> why can't you map 'fn' to 'foaf-name'
  896. [23:02:19] <tommorris> Nothing is stopping one from doing that? glean-hcal.xsl does, iirc.
  897. [23:02:19] <AlexanderGraf> KevinMarks: you would need to add fn to the RDF standard
  898. [23:02:20] <KevinMarks> I woudl suggest you focus on a syntax for expressing that
  899. [23:02:48] <AlexanderGraf> tommorris: yeah, but you need to apply the xsl first
  900. [23:02:58] <tommorris> You'd have to apply the eRDF XSL too.
  901. [23:03:07] <AlexanderGraf> hm
  902. [23:03:11] <AlexanderGraf> true
  903. [23:03:29] * tommorris feels like smashing head against desk
  904. [23:03:32] <chimezie> lol
  905. [23:03:46] <AlexanderGraf> hey, it's late ;)
  906. [23:04:04] <AlexanderGraf> but i doubt you could map all microformats to dublin core or RDF elements
  907. [23:04:12] <AlexanderGraf> with a simple XSL
  908. [23:04:28] <tommorris> People already are, and where you can't, you use a microformat namespace.
  909. [23:04:29] <chimezie> well-formed XML is the only requirement
  910. [23:05:11] <AlexanderGraf> i think i'm not getting something then
  911. [23:05:27] <AlexanderGraf> why use eRDF then
  912. [23:05:50] <tommorris> Because eRDF lets you express RDF in HTML without coming up with a set of classnames.
  913. [23:06:54] <AlexanderGraf> right... i just needed the confirmation, thanks
  914. [23:07:00] <AlexanderGraf> wasn't sure for a minute
  915. [23:07:39] <tommorris> So, beyond the name, is there anything actually wrong with macroformats as an idea?
  916. [23:07:53] <JamieKnight_> seem okay
  917. [23:08:04] <JamieKnight_> sorry i am getting all angery with you
  918. [23:08:09] <JamieKnight_> i think i am getting hung up on details.
  919. [23:08:28] <JamieKnight_> its a thing i do alot. just spoke to somone else and he said i should let it go.
  920. [23:08:35] <KevinMarks> can you do a mappinf without a xx- prefix?
  921. [23:08:36] <JamieKnight_> stupid autism.
  922. [23:09:08] <tommorris> Kevin, not with eRDF - you'd have to write your own GRDDL to do that.
  923. [23:09:12] <chimezie> The name is too contentious.. IMHO
  924. [23:10:30] <AlexanderGraf> you always need the prefix.
  925. [23:10:56] <tommorris> As I said, the reasoning (beyond failing attempts at humour) is that microformats focus on specific problems - while 'macro' refers to the fact that it can cover wider, less-rigidly-defined problems.
  926. [23:11:31] <tommorris> That is both a good thing *and* a bad thing at the same time.
  927. [23:11:48] <AlexanderGraf> and, by grounding concepts, everyone can create their own macroformat without going through a review process
  928. [23:12:01] <chimezie> I understand, it's just the ravenous nature of the communities causes the name to bottom out into nothing but a catalyst
  929. [23:13:01] <tommorris> If there's absolute wild, rampaging furuor making over the name, I'll change the damn thing. I'm not attached to it, except for the fact that I spent some $$ on a domain.
  930. [23:13:03] <chimezie> people should be encouraged to use rich , expressive (*well-formed*) markup , not to pit one against the other
  931. [23:13:24] <tommorris> That is what, in fact, we all want.
  932. [23:13:34] <JamieKnight_> yeah, i agree,
  933. [23:13:39] <Ashe``> yup
  934. [23:13:59] <JamieKnight_> no more tag soup.....
  935. [23:16:46] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  936. [23:18:43] <JamieKnight_> damn it, my connection died again,
  937. [23:19:03] * woodss (i=w_laptop@modem-2648.hartebeest.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  938. [23:19:03] <jibot> woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
  939. [23:19:06] * JamieKnight_ is now known as jammie
  940. [23:19:17] * jammie is now known as jammie_
  941. [23:19:22] <woodss> hello
  942. [23:19:40] <jammie_> hiya,
  943. [23:27:14] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has left #microformats
  944. [23:41:22] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  945. [23:59:48] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) Quit ("Leaving.")

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