IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [01:04:04] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
- [01:04:57] <JamieKnight>
hiya julianstahnke
- [01:05:07] <julianstahnke>
hello
- [01:05:13] <JamieKnight>
how be you?
- [01:05:32] <julianstahnke>
fine, how are you?
- [01:06:24] <JamieKnight>
i am sleepy, but good,
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- [01:18:41] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13598 * EouiaYi * (+203) New Examples -
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- [01:19:37] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13599 * EouiaYi * (+26) New Examples -
- [01:21:43] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13600 * EouiaYi * (+21) New Examples -
- [01:22:59] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13601 * EouiaYi * (+0) New Examples -
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- [02:04:52] <vbgunz>
#wrongplanet
- [02:05:03] <vbgunz>
sorry
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- [02:36:42] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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- [03:26:03] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [05:01:42] <KevinMarks>
http://blog.drinsama.de/erich/en/2007021501-icalendar-is-broken
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- [07:33:11] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [08:25:53] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [08:43:58] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [09:20:04] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [10:53:02] <jibot>
AlexanderGraf is a designer and webdeveloper from Innsbruck, Austria who writes on http://www.aetherworld.org/ and works for DERI Innsbruck (http://www.deri.org/)
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- [11:56:05] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [12:11:45] <jibot>
woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
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- [12:48:18] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [13:12:00] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [14:22:58] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [14:35:06] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [16:48:51] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [17:11:46] <jibot>
JamieKnight is jamie knight, a young web developer based in the UK. keeping his blog at http://jkg3.com
- [17:11:52] <JamieKnight>
hiya
- [17:12:27] <JamieKnight>
hiya vbgunz
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- [18:19:50] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [18:20:01] <JamieKnight>
hiya csarven
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- [18:39:14] <csarven>
hi JamieKnight
- [18:39:31] <JamieKnight>
how are you?
- [18:39:57] <csarven>
good. its a good sunday :) you?
- [18:40:03] <JamieKnight>
i am okay,
- [18:40:11] <JamieKnight>
getting frustrated with the people in #css
- [18:44:03] <Prometheus^>
#web is much better :)
- [18:44:07] <csarven>
try efnet/css
- [18:44:27] <JamieKnight>
thanks
- [18:44:52] <JamieKnight>
they seem full of people who dont seem to understand the concept of the net
- [18:48:12] <Prometheus^>
too much to handle, JamieKnight? ;)
- [18:48:53] <JamieKnight>
yeah, somthing like that
- [18:49:00] <Prometheus^>
from time to time they do tend to go a little off-topic, not to mention when someone mentions serving xhtml :D
- [18:49:21] <JamieKnight>
when i asked one what they though about microformats they answer was "multiple spans is retarded"
- [18:49:38] <Prometheus^>
who did you ask? :D
- [18:49:46] <JamieKnight>
and they keep picking hole in my typing, because i answer things with a comma,
- [18:50:01] <JamieKnight>
reisio: in CSS
- [18:50:07] <Prometheus^>
ah, reisio
- [18:50:29] <Prometheus^>
well, he feels it's unnecessary to pinpoint what style you are working on also, instead just use !important
- [18:50:36] <JamieKnight>
Zoffix: dosent seem to nice or great either,
- [18:50:40] <Prometheus^>
which just shows he has never worked with anyone but himself :)
- [18:50:52] <Prometheus^>
JamieKnight: but really, you are asking all the wrong people
- [18:50:58] <Prometheus^>
you should ask windrose or dorward ;)
- [18:51:43] <Prometheus^>
some people in there endorse a workaround rather than actually figuring out the actual problem
- [18:51:50] <JamieKnight>
to me they seem like idiots / amatures who dont relly understand much about wedesign
- [18:52:57] <JamieKnight>
and i feel quite bad for saying that
- [18:53:42] <Prometheus^>
I suppose that would depend on how you define a professional :)
- [18:53:59] <JamieKnight>
somone who understands, and somone who actully knows what they are doing,
- [18:54:16] <JamieKnight>
but is supose that sounds very hypocritacl form a 17 year old.
- [18:54:17] <Prometheus^>
that's still very vague
- [18:54:32] <JamieKnight>
i cant really describe what i mean.
- [18:54:36] <Prometheus^>
I figured :)
- [18:54:53] <JamieKnight>
it almost like the playground bully situation where the people all thing the same thing so they assume it is right.
- [18:55:26] <JamieKnight>
if 30 people believe that dynamite is good to eat, and one person says its not, they are seen as an idiot,
- [18:55:45] <Prometheus^>
hmm?
- [18:55:51] <Prometheus^>
I'm not quite sure what you are refering to
- [18:56:01] <JamieKnight>
if one person (me) is trying to give advice on usability and design, and they dont understand what i mean they think i am stupid.
- [18:56:44] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [18:56:56] <JamieKnight>
explaining that having a fluid width is good, but somthing like http://www.zentatsu.com/newdesign/ needs more distinktion between dections.
- [18:57:14] <JamieKnight>
or declaring its all on one line, because they are looking at it on a 1024 + display
- [18:57:58] * JamieKnight is getting frustarted with his diffculties trying to explain things. stupid autism.
- [18:58:33] <Prometheus^>
well, I would argue that sometimes it's better to not go fixed width
- [18:58:44] <Prometheus^>
well, not necessarily better, but the only option
- [18:58:59] <Prometheus^>
especially if you are not involved in the layout process :)
- [18:59:19] <JamieKnight>
i wasent arguing about the fixed width,
- [18:59:35] <JamieKnight>
my point was thier desing was hard to read, as on a large display the line lenths are huge,
- [18:59:40] <JamieKnight>
and thus, hard to read,
- [19:00:18] <Prometheus^>
I wouldn't want to be reading the site you linked anyway
- [19:00:18] <Prometheus^>
it's just horrible
- [19:00:31] <Prometheus^>
of course, that's just sample content, but it's not something I would like to read
- [19:00:34] <JamieKnight>
he asked for advice so i gave him this as a start
- [19:00:55] <JamieKnight>
http://jkg3.com/images/57.png
- [19:01:05] <JamieKnight>
to which i was told i was retarded,
- [19:01:51] <Prometheus^>
line heights, too
- [19:01:52] <JamieKnight>
i was trying to explain that padding and space ake things cleaere
- [19:02:06] <JamieKnight>
tis just frustating,
- [19:02:19] <Prometheus^>
understandably
- [19:02:45] <JamieKnight>
grrrr, my typing is stupidly rubbish today,
- [19:03:15] <Prometheus^>
the paragraphs need margin, badly
- [19:03:27] <JamieKnight>
it needs alot on the desing front,
- [19:03:30] <JamieKnight>
and i tried to help,
- [19:03:46] <JamieKnight>
this si the site of the mod. and example of "great" design http://www.zoffix.com/css/ie/extrawidth.shtml
- [19:04:01] <Prometheus^>
I think the site is beyond saving, anyway
- [19:04:38] <Prometheus^>
as is that zoffix site
- [19:04:53] <JamieKnight>
if i click n the change style it gets sttuck thier
- [19:05:44] <JamieKnight>
i supose its the "jamie not good at put downs thing again"
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- [19:05:52] <jibot>
woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
- [19:06:05] <woodss>
hi all
- [19:06:06] <JamieKnight>
hiya woodss
- [19:06:17] <woodss>
hi
- [19:06:24] <JamieKnight>
hey, i like your sites desing,
- [19:06:36] <woodss>
ta
- [19:06:44] <JamieKnight>
wipes the floor with mine,
- [19:06:49] <JamieKnight>
very distintive,
- [19:07:22] <woodss>
thanks, i only just relaunched it 2 weeks ago or so
- [19:07:37] <JamieKnight>
i like it,
- [19:07:49] <JamieKnight>
have you though about implimeting slimbox on the images?
- [19:07:57] <JamieKnight>
it would work very well, and look great,
- [19:08:09] <woodss>
i was going to use lightbox
- [19:08:33] <woodss>
but then i figured there was no point as i dont want the admin headache of uploading too many images... simple is how i like it
- [19:08:59] <woodss>
http://www.colabtees.com/designer.gif
- [19:09:01] <woodss>
he he he
- [19:09:11] <woodss>
thats like my entire life
- [19:10:04] <Prometheus^>
JamieKnight: thanks for pointing out slimbox, I just googled it up, and it seems like a very interesting alternative to lightbox :)
- [19:10:15] <JamieKnight>
slimbox is FAR lighter,
- [19:12:34] <Prometheus^>
light is good for one thing, but another thing is that lightbox was conflicting with the site I intended to use it on because I had a different version of prototype
- [19:12:36] <Prometheus^>
or something :/
- [19:12:46] <Prometheus^>
but either way, this seems like a much better solution
- [19:13:57] <JamieKnight>
slimbox is far lighter at only 7kb
- [19:14:14] <JamieKnight>
prototype is way to heavy for most sites
- [19:14:51] <Prometheus^>
well, the CMS we use loads prototype anyway, but the lightbox was using an ancient release of it
- [19:15:03] <Prometheus^>
so I'd rather just have something small and compact for that purpose
- [19:16:00] <JamieKnight>
hmmmm,
- [19:16:06] <JamieKnight>
prototype is very heavy,
- [19:16:41] <Prometheus^>
it is
- [19:17:03] * JamieKnight used dial up for 3 week a few months ago, and learnt to loth prototype.
- [19:18:24] <Prometheus^>
;)
- [19:18:51] <Prometheus^>
I can imagine that
- [19:19:26] <JamieKnight>
i am getting very very very frustarted with the people in CSS<
- [19:19:53] <JamieKnight>
i am trying to explani that reliably vertical alignment in CSS isent very plauseable, and they have jumped on me for it
- [19:21:11] <JamieKnight>
grrrrrrrr,
- [19:21:48] <Prometheus^>
well, smallbox found it's way to my delicious list
- [19:22:10] <JamieKnight>
slimbox is great,
- [19:22:16] <JamieKnight>
moooltools is great genrally,
- [19:22:20] <JamieKnight>
mootools rather
- [19:22:58] <JamieKnight>
just got beeted for highlighting the fact he is a fucking idiot.
- [19:23:01] <JamieKnight>
sod them
- [19:23:03] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host81-152-176-171.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has left #microformats
- [19:27:36] <woodss>
hehe im on dialup at the minute... broadband has been off since 12th December - never use Orange/Wanadoo/Freeserve
- [19:27:55] <Prometheus^>
freeserve :)
- [19:32:15] <woodss>
heh
- [19:38:47] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
- [19:49:06] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
- [19:49:19] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [20:15:11] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [20:22:18] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) Quit ("bubeye")
- [20:27:11] * woodss (i=w_laptop@modem-1607.hartebeest.dialup.pol.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [20:42:53] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host81-152-176-171.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [20:42:53] <jibot>
JamieKnight is jamie knight, a young web developer based in the UK. keeping his blog at http://jkg3.com
- [20:42:57] <JamieKnight>
hiya,
- [20:43:17] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host81-152-176-171.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Client Quit)
- [20:44:57] * JamieKnight_ (n=chatzill@host81-152-176-171.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [20:45:26] <JamieKnight_>
hiya,
- [20:45:57] * barlas (n=Aqeel@linuxpakistan/user/barlas) has joined #microformats
- [20:48:02] <Prometheus^>
ahoy
- [20:48:27] <JamieKnight_>
hiay,
- [20:48:36] <JamieKnight_>
i have calmed down noww,
- [20:49:51] <JamieKnight_>
how are you?
- [20:50:31] <Prometheus^>
I'm fine thanks, implementing slimbox on a site
- [20:50:34] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
- [20:50:34] <jibot>
Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
- [20:51:08] <JamieKnight_>
kewl,
- [20:51:09] <Prometheus^>
for some reason I'm unable to close, though
- [20:51:18] <JamieKnight_>
close?
- [20:51:37] <Prometheus^>
yeah, the slimbox
- [20:51:51] <JamieKnight_>
it wont close for you? probobly means that close function not working,
- [20:52:00] <JamieKnight_>
have you tried a differnt mootools download?
- [20:52:11] <JamieKnight_>
i tend to just grab everything and use it later,
- [20:52:20] <Prometheus^>
well, I got a customized download per slimbox requirments
- [20:52:28] <Prometheus^>
also, I seem to be getting this.events[type].keys has no properties for some reason
- [20:52:55] <Prometheus^>
I guess I'll redownload moo
- [20:52:58] <JamieKnight_>
yeah,
- [20:53:02] <JamieKnight_>
grab the whole lot,
- [20:53:10] <JamieKnight_>
it is simplar, and only adds about 5kb,
- [20:53:29] <JamieKnight_>
if you are wanting to use more ajax effects it helps to.
- [20:54:03] <Prometheus^>
I'll get everything but the plugins
- [20:54:13] <JamieKnight_>
yeah,
- [20:54:15] <JamieKnight_>
good move,
- [20:54:36] <Prometheus^>
I'm working with a dedicated server that has caching so the size isn't really a big deal
- [20:54:57] <JamieKnight_>
hmmmm,
- [20:55:06] <JamieKnight_>
trust me, dial up change your view on thatm
- [20:55:32] <Prometheus^>
yes, but let me tell you, if anyone is using this image gallery with a dialup, I feel really sorry for them
- [20:55:45] <Prometheus^>
the originals of these images are 9-11mb each
- [20:55:50] <Prometheus^>
they are for press use
- [20:55:59] <JamieKnight_>
have you otimised them
- [20:56:12] <JamieKnight_>
how about offering low res looks, then a download of the high res images?
- [20:56:12] <Prometheus^>
I can't
- [20:56:16] <Prometheus^>
it's not my site
- [20:56:22] <JamieKnight_>
ah,
- [20:56:24] <JamieKnight_>
ouch,
- [20:56:27] <Prometheus^>
I'm offering them a 640x480 preview in slimbox
- [20:56:34] <Prometheus^>
and a download link to the original in the caption
- [20:56:40] <JamieKnight_>
that sound good,
- [20:56:45] <JamieKnight_>
save them some hello!
- [20:56:51] <Prometheus^>
a lot of it
- [20:56:54] <JamieKnight_>
some downloading,
- [20:57:05] <Prometheus^>
it takes me 45 seconds download a 12mb image with my broadband
- [20:57:14] <JamieKnight_>
wow,
- [20:57:20] <Prometheus^>
and I'm located in finland where the server is located
- [20:57:25] <JamieKnight_>
sorry, that was a wish,
- [20:57:34] <JamieKnight_>
a with rather,
- [20:57:44] <JamieKnight_>
i have a really naff connection here,
- [20:58:07] <JamieKnight_>
the cable out to here is aufal because its so old,
- [20:58:47] <Prometheus^>
yeah, but it's ridiculous how long it takes to download these images
- [20:59:18] <JamieKnight_>
can you speak to somone?
- [20:59:23] <JamieKnight_>
ask about a redesign,
- [20:59:40] * JamieKnight_ wonders if this is more office politics style stuff
- [21:00:30] <Prometheus^>
they just redesigned it 3 times
- [21:00:35] <Prometheus^>
so there's nothing I can do :)
- [21:00:44] <JamieKnight_>
hmmm,
- [21:00:55] <JamieKnight_>
3 seems to be a magic number for redesings,
- [21:01:09] <JamieKnight_>
my site has just hit version 3 and i am getting hapier with it,
- [21:01:21] <JamieKnight_>
i am getting annoyed with people asked where i got the template from,
- [21:03:41] <Prometheus^>
interesting, I still get the same error according to firebug
- [21:03:49] <JamieKnight_>
which one?
- [21:03:58] <Prometheus^>
and still can't close the image :(
- [21:04:05] <Prometheus^>
this.events[type].keys has no properties
- [21:04:21] <JamieKnight_>
okay, there is an erro in you included liberies,
- [21:05:02] <JamieKnight_>
do you get any firebig errors with this page? http://jkg3.com/Journal/80/to-bristol-and-back
- [21:05:15] <Prometheus^>
nope
- [21:05:27] <JamieKnight_>
do you want em to email you my set up?
- [21:05:43] <JamieKnight_>
me rather,
- [21:05:51] <Prometheus^>
sure thing
- [21:05:57] <Prometheus^>
let me try one more thing though
- [21:06:04] <JamieKnight_>
okay,
- [21:06:12] <JamieKnight_>
just let me knwo if you want the files,
- [21:06:21] <JamieKnight_>
(or you could just grab them)
- [21:07:22] <Prometheus^>
I could grab them yeah :)
- [21:07:35] <Prometheus^>
I tried removing slimbox js but it doesn't seem to be the problem
- [21:07:41] * Lachy (n=Lachlan@203-166-250-95.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit ("Leaving")
- [21:08:05] <JamieKnight_>
can i see the page you are trying?
- [21:08:17] * JamieKnight_ is in love with slimbox
- [21:08:22] <Prometheus^>
well, the one where I am using slimbox, is unfortunately behind closed doors
- [21:08:29] <JamieKnight_>
ah,
- [21:08:34] <Prometheus^>
is the mootools version you have version 1.0?
- [21:08:41] <Prometheus^>
I guess it is since you are using slimbox
- [21:08:47] <JamieKnight_>
one sec, will have a look,
- [21:08:51] <JamieKnight_>
83 i think,
- [21:09:11] <JamieKnight_>
i think its release 83,
- [21:09:17] <JamieKnight_>
i went for the prime numbers,
- [21:09:35] <Prometheus^>
works just fine with slimbox though, it seems
- [21:09:42] <JamieKnight_>
yep,
- [21:09:48] <JamieKnight_>
release 83 workd well,
- [21:10:31] <Prometheus^>
alright, I'll steal it off your site and see if it works ;)
- [21:11:26] <Prometheus^>
actually, how can I just download the file :o
- [21:11:44] <JamieKnight_>
urm,
- [21:11:48] <Prometheus^>
right, just go to the js file and save as
- [21:11:48] <Prometheus^>
:D
- [21:11:51] <JamieKnight_>
you using firefox?
- [21:12:16] <JamieKnight_>
yep,
- [21:12:45] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-89-70.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:12:47] <Prometheus^>
well, now it's not giving me the error
- [21:12:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [21:12:55] <JamieKnight_>
is it working?
- [21:13:09] <JamieKnight_>
hiya KevinMarks hows tr going?
- [21:13:22] <Prometheus^>
I'll give slimbox a shot now with a working copy
- [21:13:22] <JamieKnight_>
its rather,
- [21:13:31] <JamieKnight_>
:D
- [21:14:05] <KevinMarks>
not at technorati any more
- [21:14:24] <JamieKnight_>
sorry, tr was a it mistype,
- [21:14:27] <JamieKnight_>
hows google?
- [21:14:36] * JamieKnight_ is getting use to a new keyboard.
- [21:14:47] <KevinMarks>
Good, big, complex
- [21:14:55] <JamieKnight_>
:D
- [21:15:33] * proloko (n=proloko@yarpen.mac.edu.pl) has joined #microformats
- [21:15:42] <Prometheus^>
odd, now the slimbox doesn't seem to be working
- [21:16:10] <JamieKnight_>
hmm,
- [21:16:15] <Prometheus^>
I'll have to see if it's FF caching
- [21:16:30] <JamieKnight_>
silly question i know, have you implimented the lightbox alt
- [21:16:43] <Prometheus^>
alt?
- [21:16:54] <Prometheus^>
I've the rel there
- [21:16:58] <JamieKnight_>
you need to set lightbox as its rel,
- [21:17:04] <JamieKnight_>
sorry, its rel, not alt,
- [21:17:31] <Prometheus^>
yeah, I've the lightbox rel in place
- [21:17:38] <JamieKnight_>
hmmm,
- [21:17:49] <JamieKnight_>
have you tried it in a different browser
- [21:18:12] <Prometheus^>
yes, just tried in safari
- [21:18:14] <Prometheus^>
same problem
- [21:18:22] <JamieKnight_>
your on a mac?
- [21:18:42] * JamieKnight_ mention how lucky you are and then gets back to thinking about your problem.
- [21:19:02] <Prometheus^>
could you maybe mail me the copy of your mootools
- [21:19:10] <Prometheus^>
it could be that something just borked with the download from firefox
- [21:19:10] <JamieKnight_>
okay,
- [21:19:16] <JamieKnight_>
i dont have PM right now,
- [21:19:18] <Prometheus^>
joonas.bergius@gmail.com
- [21:19:24] <JamieKnight_>
hey,
- [21:19:35] <JamieKnight_>
you intrested in testing my hcard to gmail tool?
- [21:19:40] <Prometheus^>
sure
- [21:20:05] <JamieKnight_>
tis a bookmarklet, find it at www.jkg3.com/stuff
- [21:22:00] <Prometheus^>
I wonder if it could be prototype and mootools conflicting or something
- [21:22:16] <JamieKnight_>
ah, yeah, they somtime have issue,
- [21:22:28] <JamieKnight_>
you got firebug yeah?
- [21:22:39] <Prometheus^>
aye
- [21:23:00] <JamieKnight_>
try useing the console to test the functions
- [21:24:22] <Prometheus^>
right, it's prototype and mootools conflicting
- [21:24:26] <Prometheus^>
what's causing this to happen
- [21:24:28] <Prometheus^>
*sigh*
- [21:24:35] * Ashe`` (n=Ashe@62.47.204.185) has joined #microformats
- [21:24:36] * Ashe (n=Ashe@M294P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [21:24:44] <JamieKnight_>
okay, which bits of prototype can you disable,
- [21:25:07] <JamieKnight_>
and what bit of moo, then see if you can disable them.
- [21:25:09] <Prometheus^>
none really, because there's about 15 sites on the same server
- [21:25:19] <Prometheus^>
they all share the same prototype library
- [21:25:25] <JamieKnight_>
you use the smae libery,
- [21:25:42] <Prometheus^>
I guess I have to use lightbox then :(
- [21:25:47] <JamieKnight_>
we put each one with its own section like this, then site dont get unnsessey bloat.
- [21:25:54] <JamieKnight_>
well, if prototype is there,
- [21:27:13] <Prometheus^>
yeah, I was having problems with it too, though
- [21:27:21] <Prometheus^>
but I guess I'm down for another round
- [21:27:39] <JamieKnight_>
the only thing they share is the rel bit,
- [21:27:49] <JamieKnight_>
so is there anything conflicting with it?
- [21:28:00] <Prometheus^>
I guess they have common js
- [21:28:07] <Prometheus^>
where one of them hijacks it
- [21:28:17] <JamieKnight_>
hmmm,
- [21:35:35] * chimezie (n=chime@adsl-70-239-21-167.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:35:35] <jibot>
chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
- [21:43:14] <Prometheus^>
well, got lightbox working now
- [21:44:05] <JamieKnight_>
well done,
- [21:46:36] <Prometheus^>
it'll do for now
- [21:47:35] <Ashe``>
Guys, I'm collecting really good arguments for a eRDF/RDFa vs microformats debate. Any strong opinions?
- [21:50:48] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:50:57] * amir (n=Miranda@gentoo/developer/amir) has joined #microformats
- [21:50:58] <jibot>
amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
- [21:53:30] <JamieKnight_>
microformats have are easiert to impliment for non specilist.
- [21:54:26] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1177615163.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #microformats
- [21:55:53] <tommorris>
JamieKnight_: as one of the co-founders of Macroformats! that is something we are trying to fix. Think "microformat community principles meets the SemWeb".
- [21:56:19] <Ashe``>
http://research.talis.com/2005/erdf/wiki/Main/RdfInHtml
- [21:56:28] <Ashe``>
one could always argue that this is just as easy
- [21:56:35] <JamieKnight_>
microformats are allredy easeir to impliment that RDF stuff,
- [21:56:57] <JamieKnight_>
are there any RDF maker? liek the hCard generator,
- [21:57:16] <tommorris>
No. That is what the macroformats project, which was founded at about 1pm today is intended to solve.
- [21:57:29] <JamieKnight_>
i am confused.
- [21:57:59] <JamieKnight_>
getting confused between microformats and macroformats
- [21:57:59] <tommorris>
Macroformats is a silly name that me and Tom Croucher from Yahoo UK thought up to describe eRDF+GRDDL+SemWeb technology combined with the microformats community process.
- [21:58:15] <Ashe``>
JamieKnight_ look at the url... basically it's like microformats in the syntax but is able to create rdf triples
- [21:58:27] <KevinMarks>
I think that is about as annoying as calling ti web 3.0
- [21:58:32] <JamieKnight_>
i dont know what an RDF triple is,
- [21:58:40] <tommorris>
The idea is that the branding, the heavy-tech focus of RDF/SemWeb research and the general user-unfriendliness.
- [21:58:54] <tommorris>
Kevin: it's like Web 3.0 but tongue-in-cheek.
- [21:59:00] <Ashe``>
tomorris, is there any written stuff on that
- [21:59:14] <tommorris>
No. I'm just publishing some.
- [21:59:17] * JamieKnight_ has a made urge to shamsh his head into the table reall hard.
- [21:59:17] <KevinMarks>
Right, but pick a less confusing name
- [21:59:31] <tommorris>
What's wrong with macroformats?
- [21:59:41] <KevinMarks>
it's bad enough with microcontent around
- [21:59:44] <JamieKnight_>
its was to much like microformats and will diliute both ideas,
- [22:00:07] * AGraf`` (n=Ashe@M294P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("I still remember the sun / Always warm on my back / Somehow it seems colder now.")
- [22:00:28] <JamieKnight_>
as noether of which are that well know, i think less confusion would be better,
- [22:00:31] * AlexanderGraf (n=Ashe@M294P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
- [22:00:31] <jibot>
AlexanderGraf is a designer and webdeveloper from Innsbruck, Austria who writes on http://www.aetherworld.org/ and works for DERI Innsbruck (http://www.deri.org/)
- [22:00:49] <tommorris>
I'm not sure confusion is what the problem will be.
- [22:01:24] <tommorris>
The reason we called the effort macroformats was to basically say "we think microformats fucking rocks".
- [22:01:37] <JamieKnight_>
but, instead it maks it confusing,
- [22:01:48] <JamieKnight_>
i think it would scare people of,
- [22:01:57] <KevinMarks>
well, the problem is that even with the founder of the web, the w3c organisation, and years fo haggling, the RDF movement is basically still mired in the sand
- [22:02:06] <tommorris>
That's the point.
- [22:02:18] <JamieKnight_>
i know next to nothing about RDF ect, and i got confused instantly,
- [22:02:24] <KevinMarks>
so you want to come along and piggyback on our mojo?
- [22:02:40] <JamieKnight_>
RDF seems to complicated, to me atm.
- [22:02:44] <tommorris>
No. We are saying (in most instances) "don't use RDF, use microformats".
- [22:02:49] <JamieKnight_>
intresting, but seems to unreal.
- [22:02:57] <JamieKnight_>
the, instead advocate microformats.
- [22:03:07] <JamieKnight_>
* then rather
- [22:03:25] <KevinMarks>
Danny A has bone some interesting bridging between µF and semweb stuff
- [22:03:54] <JamieKnight_>
is thier a good tutorial on RDF ect, anywhere?
- [22:03:56] <tommorris>
Yep, and what Danny Ayers is doing is foundational to what macroformats is doing.
- [22:04:15] <tommorris>
JamieKnight: http://conferences.opiumfield.com/barcamplondon2/talks/semweb/
- [22:04:17] <JamieKnight_>
macroformats seem like reinventing the wheel to me,
- [22:04:21] <JamieKnight_>
what do they do differently?
- [22:04:28] <AlexanderGraf>
To me it doesn't
- [22:04:39] <AlexanderGraf>
microformats solve a single problem,
- [22:04:41] <JamieKnight_>
thnaks for the link,
- [22:04:54] <AlexanderGraf>
RDF is way more complex
- [22:05:16] * JamieKnight_ might be suffering from FTS
- [22:05:51] <JamieKnight_>
(First Technology Love Syndrome - not wanting to change form your first technology)
- [22:07:25] <JamieKnight_>
what is an RDF triple, and what doe it have to do with 3?
- [22:08:03] <KevinMarks>
it's a way to represent syllogisms
- [22:08:05] <KevinMarks>
http://www.shirky.com/writings/semantic_syllogism.html
- [22:08:11] <AlexanderGraf>
a rdf triple consists of a subject, a predicate and an object
- [22:08:16] <JamieKnight_>
subject, predicate, object?
- [22:08:42] <AlexanderGraf>
the subject identifes what object the triple is describing
- [22:08:57] <JamieKnight_>
i am confused.
- [22:09:06] <AlexanderGraf>
the predicate is the piece of data inside the object we are applying a value to
- [22:09:14] <AlexanderGraf>
and the object is the actual value
- [22:09:27] <JamieKnight_>
so, its mre like langiage than prgramming?
- [22:09:30] <tommorris>
"my car" (subject) "has the color" (predicate) "red" (object)
- [22:09:31] <JamieKnight_>
language rather,
- [22:09:38] <AlexanderGraf>
its a semantic concept
- [22:09:44] <JamieKnight_>
but the object it is about is your car,
- [22:09:49] <KevinMarks>
it's like programming in prolog
- [22:09:51] <JamieKnight_>
no the color red,
- [22:10:05] <KevinMarks>
except eac element is defined by a URI
- [22:10:08] * barlas (n=Aqeel@linuxpakistan/user/barlas) Quit ("Goog Night everyone")
- [22:10:34] <JamieKnight_>
why is the object red, when the sentence is about the car?
- [22:11:26] <tommorris>
KevinMarks: macroformats isn't intended to 'steal mojo'. It's a cheeky website that a few people are working on to sex up RDF - to give to the SemWeb a little of what Ajax gave XMLHttpRequest.
- [22:13:05] <KevinMarks>
I'm not objecting the idea, or the goal, so much as the confusing name
- [22:13:09] <KevinMarks>
pick a better one
- [22:14:32] <tommorris>
The name procedure is pretty simple - it's the first name that came to us. It's fun. And if someone can think of a better one (I suck at naming) and can stump up $30 to register new domains, then the name changes.
- [22:14:49] <KevinMarks>
someone else has the domina
- [22:14:59] <AlexanderGraf>
Oo
- [22:15:00] <tommorris>
usemacroformats.com is reg'd.
- [22:15:09] <JamieKnight_>
why didnt you ask the microformats comnity for permission,
- [22:15:19] <KevinMarks>
they don't need permission,
- [22:15:25] <tommorris>
Because sisters are doing it for themselves, Jamie.
- [22:15:35] <KevinMarks>
but it is being deliberately obnoxious
- [22:15:38] <JamieKnight_>
it seems a bit mean to me,
- [22:15:52] <JamieKnight_>
i dont know what obnoxios means,
- [22:16:05] <tommorris>
I don't think it is. It's meant in a sense of fun.
- [22:16:36] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
- [22:16:39] <JamieKnight_>
i dont think it comnicates that,
- [22:16:42] <AlexanderGraf>
I think the goals are the same
- [22:16:48] <AlexanderGraf>
Nobody wants to pick a fight
- [22:17:16] <KevinMarks>
how do you follow the µf process wit RDF?
- [22:17:30] <KevinMarks>
step 1 - see hwo people are representing the data already
- [22:17:36] <KevinMarks>
oh look, no RDF
- [22:17:58] <AlexanderGraf>
RDF is meant to be machine readable
- [22:18:02] <tommorris>
Well, the basic plan is we find compelling use cases of pre-existing data that could be used by people in cases that are too domain-specific for the mf process.
- [22:18:27] <AlexanderGraf>
so transforming html class/rev/rel to RDF triples makes it easier to reuse the data
- [22:18:30] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
- [22:18:45] <KevinMarks>
no it doesn't
- [22:18:48] <AlexanderGraf>
The only problem i see with microformats is extendability
- [22:18:59] <KevinMarks>
the problem is meaning, not data
- [22:19:02] <tommorris>
No. Using eRDF - which uses html class/id/rev/rel/etc. - along with GRDDL.
- [22:19:08] <AlexanderGraf>
every time someone thinks of a new microformat, all parsers will have to be rewritten
- [22:19:14] <JamieKnight_>
no they dont,
- [22:19:24] <JamieKnight_>
AlexanderGraf: all the main implimentation are modular,
- [22:19:26] <AlexanderGraf>
they do, else they wont pick up the new format
- [22:19:29] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [22:19:38] <JamieKnight_>
no, very few actully use all the microformats,
- [22:19:46] <AlexanderGraf>
yeah, sure
- [22:19:47] <JamieKnight_>
things have to be updated,
- [22:19:48] <KevinMarks>
because they can't pick it up until they have some local meaningful representation to map it inot
- [22:19:53] <JamieKnight_>
but not totally rewritten,
- [22:19:56] <AlexanderGraf>
that's what i'm saying
- [22:19:59] <KevinMarks>
transforming it inot another data structrue doesn't help
- [22:20:06] <AlexanderGraf>
it does
- [22:20:18] <KevinMarks>
because no meaning inheres in the triples eitehr
- [22:20:21] <JamieKnight_>
IE, if we add a new thing to hCard it wont brea hkit,
- [22:20:38] <AlexanderGraf>
by grounding a knowledge base and using the RDF triples we can give each element semantic value
- [22:20:59] <JamieKnight_>
how does it have semantic value? what si out there to understand this value?
- [22:21:03] <KevinMarks>
no you can't
- [22:21:27] <AlexanderGraf>
do you know KIM?
- [22:21:33] <KevinMarks>
that is the core myth
- [22:21:56] <AlexanderGraf>
you are saying semantic knowledge stores are a myth?
- [22:22:04] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
- [22:22:21] <JamieKnight_>
tools dont write themselfs,
- [22:22:23] * proloko (n=proloko@yarpen.mac.edu.pl) Quit (":: ( www.proloko.fe.pl :: )")
- [22:22:42] <KevinMarks>
I'm saying that transforming into predicates does not imbue data with meaning
- [22:23:03] <AlexanderGraf>
no but if a tool has access to the knowledge store it can understand the real world meaning of the predicates
- [22:23:05] <tommorris>
The point is that domain-specific information and niche formats won't/don't work through the microformat process well.
- [22:23:27] <JamieKnight_>
no, but how would they work better though "macroformats"
- [22:23:43] <KevinMarks>
but ti's not a data representation problme
- [22:23:47] <JamieKnight_>
and, if there is little pre use, then it is not waht the aims of microfrmats were,
- [22:23:53] <KevinMarks>
it's an agreeing on meaning problem
- [22:24:05] <AlexanderGraf>
no it's not
- [22:24:10] <AlexanderGraf>
meaning is clearly defined
- [22:24:17] <JamieKnight_>
defined in what?
- [22:24:25] <AlexanderGraf>
you're annotating data, that defines the meaning
- [22:24:28] <JamieKnight_>
other things which have no meaning?
- [22:24:30] <JamieKnight_>
okay,
- [22:24:41] <KevinMarks>
there is no meaning without agreement
- [22:24:47] <JamieKnight_>
I am jamie, i have HFA == autism == aspergers syndrome == kanner
- [22:25:01] <AlexanderGraf>
so?
- [22:25:04] <tommorris>
There are *existing RDF schema* that represent knowledge that people use widely, and using eRDF/GRDDL to do this seems a sensible way.
- [22:25:05] <JamieKnight_>
if you got ot the USA and say i have kanner syndrome they wont under sand.
- [22:25:43] <JamieKnight_>
tommorris: how dose this solved the domain specific problem?
- [22:25:50] <AlexanderGraf>
JamieKnight_: That's why you are annotating the data. The rdf knowledge store now knows all the synonymes and homonymes for that word.
- [22:26:12] <AlexanderGraf>
remember, RDF is not for the user, it's for the machine
- [22:26:15] <JamieKnight_>
but differnt thinghave varying meaning,
- [22:26:23] <AlexanderGraf>
like?
- [22:26:30] <JamieKnight_>
autism
- [22:26:30] <KevinMarks>
synonyms are soft
- [22:26:35] <JamieKnight_>
what does that mean to you~?
- [22:27:05] <JamieKnight_>
autism in a autism chat room means very different things to the adverage person,
- [22:27:06] <AlexanderGraf>
i can give you the definition from pschyrembel
- [22:27:17] <JamieKnight_>
but autism is alot more than the definition,
- [22:27:27] <JamieKnight_>
and there are about 7 definitations as autism is not well defined.
- [22:27:30] <tommorris>
KevinMarks: what do you/the non-SemWeb folks lose by putting GRDDL transformations on their microformats?
- [22:27:40] <AlexanderGraf>
how is that relevant to semantic web knowledge
- [22:27:46] <AlexanderGraf>
we're not annotating every word
- [22:27:53] <AlexanderGraf>
we're annotating concepts
- [22:27:55] <KevinMarks>
you can transform thme how you like, no loss
- [22:28:00] <JamieKnight_>
autism is a concempt
- [22:28:05] <AlexanderGraf>
no it's not
- [22:28:12] <AlexanderGraf>
it's a subconcept of a concept
- [22:28:21] <JamieKnight_>
I dont see the point in doing somthing else, which is going to make things more confusing,
- [22:28:25] <JamieKnight_>
whats the concept?
- [22:28:32] <AlexanderGraf>
microformats don't solve the autism problem
- [22:28:33] <JamieKnight_>
autism the subcocept of?
- [22:28:39] <AlexanderGraf>
and eRDF won't, either
- [22:28:40] <JamieKnight_>
micrformats allow me to add other tags
- [22:28:43] <AlexanderGraf>
it's not supposed to
- [22:28:46] <AlexanderGraf>
tags?
- [22:28:48] <AlexanderGraf>
like?
- [22:28:57] <AlexanderGraf>
rel="autism"?
- [22:29:01] <JamieKnight_>
on my blog i have "autism" and "asperger"
- [22:29:08] <JamieKnight_>
and wrongplanet,
- [22:29:16] <AlexanderGraf>
eRDF allows you to do the same
- [22:29:32] <JamieKnight_>
why do it on eRDF not microformats,
- [22:29:40] <JamieKnight_>
with microformats i add a couple of rel tag,
- [22:29:47] <JamieKnight_>
what is the equivilent in eRDF?
- [22:29:50] <AlexanderGraf>
why do it on microformats, not eRDF
- [22:29:52] <AlexanderGraf>
rel tags
- [22:29:57] <AlexanderGraf>
it's the same
- [22:30:06] <JamieKnight_>
what supports eRDF,
- [22:30:07] <AlexanderGraf>
only you add a profile to the <head>
- [22:30:12] <JamieKnight_>
ah,
- [22:30:16] <tommorris>
And you add the schemas to the head too.
- [22:30:19] <JamieKnight_>
dont need that for microformars,
- [22:30:26] <JamieKnight_>
dont need that for microformats,
- [22:30:34] <AlexanderGraf>
yeah so your argument for microformats is
- [22:30:38] <AlexanderGraf>
one URL less
- [22:30:38] <JamieKnight_>
microformats though,
- [22:30:39] <AlexanderGraf>
?
- [22:30:51] <JamieKnight_>
no, my argument is that they are easeir to implment,
- [22:30:57] <AlexanderGraf>
Oo
- [22:31:07] <JamieKnight_>
earlier today i was talking in the CSS channel and i get very very annoyed at some people,
- [22:31:15] <AlexanderGraf>
they are easier to implement because you don't have to edit your <head> tag?
- [22:31:24] <JamieKnight_>
yes,
- [22:31:25] <AlexanderGraf>
that's ridicolous
- [22:31:31] <JamieKnight_>
some pople wont have accsess to the head code,
- [22:31:39] <AlexanderGraf>
<head profile="...">
- [22:31:47] <JamieKnight_>
yes, so what if you dont have accsess?
- [22:31:54] <JamieKnight_>
like many CSS systems,
- [22:32:04] <AlexanderGraf>
so what if you don't have access to the html source
- [22:32:13] <JamieKnight_>
you can add a rel tag into the body,
- [22:32:14] <AlexanderGraf>
i mean, that's not an argument
- [22:32:17] <JamieKnight_>
with nothing else,
- [22:32:31] <AlexanderGraf>
yeah, say you only have a wysiwyg editor
- [22:32:33] <AlexanderGraf>
and no code
- [22:32:34] <AlexanderGraf>
...
- [22:32:50] <KevinMarks>
you can embed microformats inside HTML without having to edit the head, which means they can travel in HTML envelopes such as feeds and email
- [22:33:05] <JamieKnight_>
KevinMarks: makes a better argument that me,
- [22:33:11] <JamieKnight_>
but it sums up what i mean,
- [22:33:17] <AlexanderGraf>
ok, i get your point
- [22:33:37] <tommorris>
This is totally missing the point. There is no good argument against adoption of GRDDL and/or eRDF as appropriate. That point being granted, an alternative community process for RDF-centered development seems appropriate.
- [22:33:42] <JamieKnight_>
tryign to get developer to understand microformats is hard enough,
- [22:33:55] <JamieKnight_>
but why call it macroformats?
- [22:33:59] <tommorris>
For a laugh.
- [22:34:06] <AlexanderGraf>
the name so doesn't matter
- [22:34:09] <JamieKnight_>
that would mean more specific than microfromats?
- [22:34:14] <AlexanderGraf>
no
- [22:34:18] <AlexanderGraf>
more general
- [22:34:31] <tommorris>
Yep. And more bloated. :)
- [22:34:38] <KevinMarks>
call them megaformats
- [22:34:50] <JamieKnight_>
exData,
- [22:34:52] <KevinMarks>
macaroniformats
- [22:35:00] <AlexanderGraf>
What has the name got to do with the technology
- [22:35:09] <KevinMarks>
spaghettiformats
- [22:35:22] <JamieKnight_>
macro and micro are way to similar, you are going to make it even harder for people to take hold of the technologies,
- [22:35:32] <AlexanderGraf>
look
- [22:35:34] <tommorris>
Nothing, but the technology doesnt have much to do with it either. The point is *making it easy for the goddam users* which is what the RDF/SemWeb people don't focus on.
- [22:35:44] <JamieKnight_>
making it easier?
- [22:35:57] <JamieKnight_>
RDF is very complicated, compared to microformats,
- [22:36:07] <JamieKnight_>
you add some sematic tag name we can understand,
- [22:36:09] <JamieKnight_>
thats it,
- [22:36:12] <tommorris>
Yes, by providing decent documentation, example code and tools - like the microformats do for non-RDF-centered-embedded-data development.
- [22:36:21] <AlexanderGraf>
RDFa is in the works. The w3c will not make microformats a recommendation. Following your argument i could say that microformats are making adoption of new technology harder.
- [22:36:27] <tommorris>
Yes, and then we have long arguments about "name" versus "nom".
- [22:36:46] <KevinMarks>
the w3c is not relevant
- [22:36:52] <AlexanderGraf>
actually
- [22:36:56] <KevinMarks>
microformats use existing standards
- [22:36:58] <AlexanderGraf>
microformats.org is not relevant
- [22:36:59] <tommorris>
RDFa isn't worth talking about *until* XHTML2 is ratified.
- [22:37:04] <vbgunz>
microformats make what harder?
- [22:37:21] <JamieKnight_>
RDF is more complicated,
- [22:37:25] <AlexanderGraf>
tommorris: of course, i was just throwing the same argument towards him
- [22:37:46] <AlexanderGraf>
vbgunz: nothing, i was just pointing out how ridiculous the argument was
- [22:37:52] <tommorris>
JamieKnight: so you keep saying. That's why I'm trying to come up with a solution rather than just bitching.
- [22:38:01] <AlexanderGraf>
JamieKnight_: eRDF is not a fully featured RDF
- [22:38:31] <AlexanderGraf>
http://research.talis.com/2005/erdf/wiki/Main/RdfInHtml
- [22:38:34] <AlexanderGraf>
look at that
- [22:38:40] <AlexanderGraf>
to get the concept
- [22:38:41] <JamieKnight_>
tommorris: i am not bithching i am trying to pooint out that RDF is more complicated that microformats, and it is hard enough to get microfromats into people heads.
- [22:39:06] <JamieKnight_>
AlexanderGraf: i need to read research paperers to under stand the concept.
- [22:39:11] <AlexanderGraf>
we're NOT advocating the use of the whole RDF syntax in HTML
- [22:39:16] <JamieKnight_>
with microformats i add a sematic classname,
- [22:39:24] <vbgunz>
the only reason it is hard to get microformats into the heads of people is because it is so subtle, it's almost invisible
- [22:39:27] <AlexanderGraf>
wtf
- [22:39:31] <JamieKnight_>
rel="tag"
- [22:39:33] <JamieKnight_>
done,
- [22:39:39] <AlexanderGraf>
JamieKnight_: <div><span class="dc-creator" title="Ian Davis">I</span> wrote this</div>
- [22:39:48] <AlexanderGraf>
how is that HARDER than microformats
- [22:39:54] <JamieKnight_>
what is in the head?
- [22:40:00] <JamieKnight_>
what else doe the page need?
- [22:40:08] <AlexanderGraf>
nothing
- [22:40:18] <JamieKnight_>
so where is the schema you were talking about?
- [22:40:28] <AlexanderGraf>
<head profile="http://purl.org/NET/erdf/profile"> if you want to make it discoverable for a machine
- [22:40:32] <JamieKnight_>
ah,
- [22:40:36] <JamieKnight_>
there you go,
- [22:40:36] <AlexanderGraf>
but it's not *required*
- [22:40:38] <JamieKnight_>
more stuff,
- [22:40:45] <AlexanderGraf>
ONE line
- [22:40:48] <AlexanderGraf>
not "more stuff"
- [22:40:49] <JamieKnight_>
the tools are allredy there to find the micformats
- [22:40:51] <JamieKnight_>
yes,
- [22:40:52] <JamieKnight_>
but there is more,
- [22:41:00] <AlexanderGraf>
JamieKnight_: No they arent
- [22:41:03] <JamieKnight_>
you have to know you need that for it to be discoverable,
- [22:41:09] <JamieKnight_>
hkit
- [22:41:11] <tommorris>
But from the user's point of view, it makes no difference whether the underlying data structure is RDF or S-expressions or smoke signals. What microformats did right is to have readable specifications and lots and lots of example. What exactly is wrong with this?
- [22:41:22] <AlexanderGraf>
if a new microformat comes out, you have to modify the tools
- [22:41:28] <JamieKnight_>
no you dont,
- [22:41:51] <AlexanderGraf>
how would you discover rel="foo" without knowing there /is/ a "foo"
- [22:41:51] <JamieKnight_>
how do i have to modify operator to be able to continue using hCard?
- [22:42:07] <JamieKnight_>
because the tool is there,
- [22:42:11] <AlexanderGraf>
no
- [22:42:12] <JamieKnight_>
for example perator,
- [22:42:15] <JamieKnight_>
just looks,
- [22:42:21] <AlexanderGraf>
i propose a new microformat
- [22:42:21] <JamieKnight_>
if it rel tag, use it.
- [22:42:25] <tommorris>
That's not the point. If a new microformat comes out, Operator needs to be upgraded. If a new RDF schema comes out, Redland reads it just fine.
- [22:42:28] <AlexanderGraf>
rel="blah"
- [22:42:38] <AlexanderGraf>
operator needs to be updated
- [22:42:41] <AlexanderGraf>
like tommorris said
- [22:42:46] <vbgunz>
i know what he saying... if a new class or id makes it into a microformat, tools will have to be upgraded... is this correct?
- [22:42:51] <AlexanderGraf>
yes
- [22:42:58] <AlexanderGraf>
correct
- [22:43:02] <AlexanderGraf>
not so with eRDF
- [22:43:09] <JamieKnight_>
yes it reads it but does it do anything useful with it,
- [22:43:16] <AlexanderGraf>
yes
- [22:43:29] <AlexanderGraf>
the schema changes and you will get new RDF triples with semantic meaning
- [22:43:30] <vbgunz>
wow, self upgrading tools is the bomb diggy :)
- [22:43:31] <JamieKnight_>
you need to add extra code, and you need to understand a whole lot more than you do to use microformats,
- [22:43:41] <AlexanderGraf>
no and no
- [22:43:45] <AlexanderGraf>
extra code is one url
- [22:43:51] <AlexanderGraf>
everybody can do that
- [22:43:53] <JamieKnight_>
it is still extar code,
- [22:43:55] <AlexanderGraf>
and its not mandatory
- [22:43:59] <AlexanderGraf>
its NOT mandatory
- [22:44:06] <JamieKnight_>
and for the more advanced options you will need mroe than the one line of code,
- [22:44:17] <AlexanderGraf>
its just so you dont have to modify code later like you do with microformats
- [22:44:17] <JamieKnight_>
but to use it to its complete potentioan you have to use it
- [22:44:26] <AlexanderGraf>
<JamieKnight_> and for the more advanced options you will need mroe than the one line of code,
- [22:44:27] <tommorris>
You don't need to understand anything beyond the copy and paste command of your operating system. And if you don't understand that, you aren't qualified to be publishing web pages.
- [22:44:30] <AlexanderGraf>
this
- [22:44:35] <AlexanderGraf>
is just PLAIN wrong
- [22:44:50] <AlexanderGraf>
there is not more than the schemas
- [22:44:56] <JamieKnight_>
tommorris: you need to know why you are copying and pasting,
- [22:45:03] <JamieKnight_>
otherswise you are likley to get the wrong thing,
- [22:45:07] <vbgunz>
AlexanderGraf: maybe you're not getting your point across clearly enough... do you have a side by side example or something?
- [22:45:15] <AlexanderGraf>
JamieKnight_: you don't have any arguments, do you?
- [22:45:22] <tommorris>
Yes, and you need to know that with microformats. "foaf-name" and "fn" aren't that hard to comprehend.
- [22:45:29] <AlexanderGraf>
vbgunz: english isn't my native language, sorry
- [22:45:35] <vbgunz>
ahh
- [22:45:36] <AlexanderGraf>
vbgunz: <JamieKnight_> and for the more advanced options you will need mroe than the one line of code,
- [22:45:42] <AlexanderGraf>
halfway through the page
- [22:45:48] <JamieKnight_>
my argument is that you need to have more things to use it.
- [22:45:59] <JamieKnight_>
to use reltag, to it full potensioan i just need re="tag"
- [22:46:06] <JamieKnight_>
that rel="tag" rather,
- [22:46:09] <AlexanderGraf>
JamieKnight_: no, those "more things" boil down to one. bloody. url.
- [22:46:22] <AlexanderGraf>
JamieKnight_: you can use rel="tag" with eRDF too
- [22:46:28] <tommorris>
This is not an argument worth having. SemWebbers are embracing microformats.
- [22:46:53] <JamieKnight_>
i would be happy to embrace sem web stuff if it didnt try and steal the micrformats name, and ideas,
- [22:46:57] <AlexanderGraf>
the schema is just so a machine can understand the semantic /concept/ of what a tag is.
- [22:46:59] <tommorris>
You are arguing over where you place your complexity and information - in the parser or in the document. There is no logical conclusion to the discussion except personal preference.
- [22:47:14] <tommorris>
How is a humourous name "stealing", ffs?
- [22:47:18] <JamieKnight_>
you need to write a pharser once,
- [22:47:24] <JamieKnight_>
in a document every time
- [22:47:25] <AlexanderGraf>
I'm agreeing with tommorris
- [22:47:32] <AlexanderGraf>
JamieKnight_: i concur
- [22:47:40] <AlexanderGraf>
you need to write a documents ONCE.
- [22:47:44] <AlexanderGraf>
add a schema ONCE
- [22:47:48] <AlexanderGraf>
and write the parser ONCE
- [22:48:01] <AlexanderGraf>
with microformats you write the parser for every single format
- [22:48:06] <JamieKnight_>
tommorris: dont you understand that by using the name macroformats you are diluting its brand and aiding to confusiion,
- [22:48:18] <AlexanderGraf>
microformats are a "brand"?
- [22:48:33] <AlexanderGraf>
since when?
- [22:48:36] <JamieKnight_>
somone who would be using microformats / macro formats could mispless it in a search engine and be led to believe somthing completely different
- [22:48:50] <JamieKnight_>
IE microformats are known as microformats so there fore its the brand.
- [22:49:02] <tommorris>
It's a temporary name. It's funny. Once some professional brand manager wanker gets ahold of it, then it can change. Bla bla bla. The important bit is the substance.
- [22:49:05] <JamieKnight_>
so, if you were making and advertisement you waould call them microfromats
- [22:49:22] <AlexanderGraf>
if someone doesn't uderstand the different concepts of macro and micro, he should not be allowed to use the internet anyway
- [22:49:41] <JamieKnight_>
AlexanderGraf: that goes agaist the whole point of the net what you just said,
- [22:49:50] <JamieKnight_>
the internet ANYONE should be able to use,
- [22:50:00] <tommorris>
We live in a world where people watch television shows more complicated than the average pocket calculator. People can understand a little dry humour. Give them credit, for christs sake.
- [22:50:02] <AlexanderGraf>
that was just being extreme and you know it
- [22:50:10] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1177615163.dsl.bell.ca) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- [22:50:22] <JamieKnight_>
no, id didnt know that,
- [22:50:30] <AlexanderGraf>
oh ok
- [22:51:01] <AlexanderGraf>
anyway, what i'm saying, people who are interested in macro/microformats have enough brains to know how macro differs from micro
- [22:51:02] <JamieKnight_>
i am feeling very angery that by using the name macroformats, you are not distinguishing it form micrformats enought which will lead to confusion,
- [22:51:22] <AlexanderGraf>
and as tommorris said, it's just a name
- [22:51:25] <tommorris>
Still, the only real objection to macroformats is the name and the usual anti-SemWeb stuff?
- [22:51:30] <AlexanderGraf>
call it erdf for the moment
- [22:51:31] <JamieKnight_>
and, to use thease RDF things, you do require accsess to the head to use ti to its highest potensial.
- [22:51:41] <AlexanderGraf>
no ffs
- [22:51:43] <JamieKnight_>
i am not anti semweb,
- [22:51:54] <AlexanderGraf>
why do you keep repeating that head profile bullshit
- [22:51:56] <AlexanderGraf>
i said
- [22:51:58] <JamieKnight_>
i am just frustarted that you cannot see how they are more complicated,
- [22:51:59] <AlexanderGraf>
it's optional
- [22:52:00] <AlexanderGraf>
ffs
- [22:52:10] <AlexanderGraf>
you just need it for the full potential
- [22:52:17] <JamieKnight_>
exactaly
- [22:52:27] <JamieKnight_>
" <AlexanderGraf> you just need it for the full potential"
- [22:52:30] <JamieKnight_>
that is my point,
- [22:52:36] <AlexanderGraf>
the full potential which microformats DONT EVEN HAVE
- [22:52:36] <JamieKnight_>
not evryone has accsess ot the head,
- [22:52:42] <AlexanderGraf>
so?
- [22:52:47] <KevinMarks>
you still need a parser to go from the RDF representation back into a meaningful one
- [22:52:54] <AlexanderGraf>
they only get the same as they would get with microformats
- [22:53:10] <AlexanderGraf>
i can manually write an eRDF parser
- [22:53:19] <AlexanderGraf>
just like i'd do for microformats
- [22:53:20] <JamieKnight_>
but they dont have to accsess the head, and they dont have to leanr all about RDF ect,
- [22:53:23] <vbgunz>
AlexanderGraf: I don't get it. Microformats are great. maybe I missed it but what makes RDF greater?
- [22:53:33] <tommorris>
KevinMarks: it's about moving the complexity to where people feel comfortable. Choice in this area is *good*.
- [22:53:41] <JamieKnight_>
i dont see the point of adding more "compitition"
- [22:53:54] <JamieKnight_>
microformats do what they are designed to do, and do it well,
- [22:53:59] <tommorris>
It's not about adding competition, for about the 956th time.
- [22:54:04] <AlexanderGraf>
JamieKnight_: I'm not discussing this with you any longer... you keep repeating this head profile bullshit which doesn't make any sense
- [22:54:10] <KevinMarks>
I'm not aruing about that
- [22:54:18] <JamieKnight_>
it looks that way to me,
- [22:54:21] <KevinMarks>
if you call them macaroniformats, I'l be happy
- [22:54:28] <KevinMarks>
thats actually funny
- [22:54:29] <JamieKnight_>
you called it macroformats,
- [22:54:57] <JamieKnight_>
you do require accsess to the head for full potenioal,
- [22:55:12] <AlexanderGraf>
vbgunz: eRDF is just as simple as microformats. but, using a head profile a machine can transform the whole XML to rdf triples. now you can use the full potential of grounded knowledge or triple stores.
- [22:55:16] <tommorris>
One of the reasons I chose macroformats is that the word is already in circulation in a meaningless way.
- [22:55:18] <JamieKnight_>
i would also see it as compitiontion because you have to chose one or the other,
- [22:55:25] <tommorris>
No you don't.
- [22:55:29] <AlexanderGraf>
no you don'T
- [22:55:35] <tommorris>
You can use eRDF and microformats on the same page quite easily.
- [22:55:40] <JamieKnight_>
so, you expect people to write out double the amount of tags
- [22:55:50] <AlexanderGraf>
........
- [22:55:53] <JamieKnight_>
so next time i write an autism tag, i also need to use your tagging system to?
- [22:55:58] <KevinMarks>
I'm getting structured blogging flashbacks
- [22:55:59] <AlexanderGraf>
so, YOU expect people to write out double the amount of tags
- [22:56:13] <tommorris>
No. I don't expect people to write out anything. They can do whatever they want on their webpage. It's about giving them a choice.
- [22:56:20] <AlexanderGraf>
so next time I write an autism tag, i also need to use YOUR tagging system to?
- [22:56:23] <JamieKnight_>
choice is good,
- [22:56:35] <JamieKnight_>
but, if you want to do both you end up with data replication,
- [22:56:38] <AlexanderGraf>
its the same the other way round
- [22:56:45] <AlexanderGraf>
eRDF is there, microformats are there
- [22:56:53] <AlexanderGraf>
what makes this
- [22:56:53] <AlexanderGraf>
<p id="ian" class="-foaf-Person">I am a person</p>
- [22:56:57] <tommorris>
How is <span class="fn foaf-name">Tom Morris</span> data replication?
- [22:56:58] <AlexanderGraf>
worse than an hcard?
- [22:57:15] <JamieKnight_>
tommorris: that example sems fine,
- [22:57:23] <JamieKnight_>
but will you RDF work with the extra FN there?
- [22:57:26] <JamieKnight_>
all of the,?
- [22:57:29] <AlexanderGraf>
yes
- [22:57:34] <tommorris>
Yup. Uses XSL/GRDDL standards.
- [22:57:37] <JamieKnight_>
or will you need to rewrite them?
- [22:57:46] <AlexanderGraf>
erdf usses GRDDL standards and dublin core elements
- [22:57:49] <JamieKnight_>
okay fine,
- [22:57:53] <AlexanderGraf>
no rewriting on either side
- [22:57:59] <JamieKnight_>
thats good,
- [22:58:09] <KevinMarks>
but you can't define a mapping that reads fn and maps it into foaf-name?
- [22:58:13] <JamieKnight_>
I dont think the name is right, but it seems the concept is okay
- [22:58:29] <AlexanderGraf>
KevinMarks: you could do it the other way round though
- [22:58:42] <JamieKnight_>
i wouldent see so many people implmenting it as it Rewuire more knowlage,
- [22:58:42] <AlexanderGraf>
that's what makes RDF more powerful
- [22:58:52] <JamieKnight_>
most web dev people dont even know what semantic means
- [22:59:02] <AlexanderGraf>
JamieKnight_: where do you need more knowledge???
- [22:59:05] <JamieKnight_>
be back in 7 minites
- [22:59:11] <tommorris>
IT DOESN'T REQUIRE MORE KNOWLEDGE, FFS!
- [22:59:18] <AlexanderGraf>
-foaf-Person requires more knowledge than writing fn?
- [22:59:24] <JamieKnight_>
you do because you need to know to add XYC to head,
- [22:59:30] <AlexanderGraf>
thats ridiculous...
- [22:59:32] <AlexanderGraf>
.........
- [22:59:32] <JamieKnight_>
to use it to its full potesial,
- [22:59:32] <KevinMarks>
why can't you map fn into foaf-name ?
- [22:59:37] <AlexanderGraf>
NO YOU BLOODY DONT
- [22:59:41] <AlexanderGraf>
<JamieKnight_> you do because you need to know to add XYC to head,
- [22:59:41] <tommorris>
How is pasting an element in to an HTML file "knowledge"?
- [22:59:42] <AlexanderGraf>
this
- [22:59:42] <KevinMarks>
you're supposed to have the big abstract mapping engine
- [22:59:47] <JamieKnight_>
" <AlexanderGraf> you just need it for the full potential"
- [22:59:54] <AlexanderGraf>
is the friggin 5th time you'Re repeating this
- [22:59:56] <AlexanderGraf>
so what?
- [23:00:02] <JamieKnight_>
you need to know to repeat it.
- [23:00:07] <JamieKnight_>
you need to know its needed,
- [23:00:12] <AlexanderGraf>
huh?
- [23:00:14] <AlexanderGraf>
what?
- [23:00:19] <AlexanderGraf>
it's NOT needed
- [23:00:29] <JamieKnight_>
" <AlexanderGraf> you just need it for the full potential"
- [23:00:46] <AlexanderGraf>
it's just there so a semantic searchengine/a semantic tool can understand the bloody CONCEPT of your bloody rel="tag"
- [23:00:48] <JamieKnight_>
who would write aa page which cannot reach it potential.
- [23:00:53] <AlexanderGraf>
........
- [23:00:54] <AlexanderGraf>
ok
- [23:01:02] <AlexanderGraf>
you just disqualified microformats
- [23:01:05] <JamieKnight_>
i am going to be late,
- [23:01:10] <AlexanderGraf>
since they don't offer that potential AT ALL
- [23:01:22] <JamieKnight_>
but you rsaying this is not a compition,
- [23:01:28] <AlexanderGraf>
without the head profile, eRDF is exactly the same as microformats
- [23:01:28] <KevinMarks>
AlexanderGraf
- [23:01:33] <JamieKnight_>
if you want to tag somthing, or mark somthing up than tahts it,
- [23:01:41] <JamieKnight_>
no extra junk,
- [23:01:43] <AlexanderGraf>
with the profile, eRDF is more powerful
- [23:01:56] <JamieKnight_>
i would love to stay and listen to more of your stuff, but i have to go.
- [23:01:56] <KevinMarks>
why can't you map 'fn' to 'foaf-name'
- [23:02:19] <tommorris>
Nothing is stopping one from doing that? glean-hcal.xsl does, iirc.
- [23:02:19] <AlexanderGraf>
KevinMarks: you would need to add fn to the RDF standard
- [23:02:20] <KevinMarks>
I woudl suggest you focus on a syntax for expressing that
- [23:02:48] <AlexanderGraf>
tommorris: yeah, but you need to apply the xsl first
- [23:02:58] <tommorris>
You'd have to apply the eRDF XSL too.
- [23:03:07] <AlexanderGraf>
hm
- [23:03:11] <AlexanderGraf>
true
- [23:03:29] * tommorris feels like smashing head against desk
- [23:03:32] <chimezie>
lol
- [23:03:46] <AlexanderGraf>
hey, it's late ;)
- [23:04:04] <AlexanderGraf>
but i doubt you could map all microformats to dublin core or RDF elements
- [23:04:12] <AlexanderGraf>
with a simple XSL
- [23:04:28] <tommorris>
People already are, and where you can't, you use a microformat namespace.
- [23:04:29] <chimezie>
well-formed XML is the only requirement
- [23:05:11] <AlexanderGraf>
i think i'm not getting something then
- [23:05:27] <AlexanderGraf>
why use eRDF then
- [23:05:50] <tommorris>
Because eRDF lets you express RDF in HTML without coming up with a set of classnames.
- [23:06:54] <AlexanderGraf>
right... i just needed the confirmation, thanks
- [23:07:00] <AlexanderGraf>
wasn't sure for a minute
- [23:07:39] <tommorris>
So, beyond the name, is there anything actually wrong with macroformats as an idea?
- [23:07:53] <JamieKnight_>
seem okay
- [23:08:04] <JamieKnight_>
sorry i am getting all angery with you
- [23:08:09] <JamieKnight_>
i think i am getting hung up on details.
- [23:08:28] <JamieKnight_>
its a thing i do alot. just spoke to somone else and he said i should let it go.
- [23:08:35] <KevinMarks>
can you do a mappinf without a xx- prefix?
- [23:08:36] <JamieKnight_>
stupid autism.
- [23:09:08] <tommorris>
Kevin, not with eRDF - you'd have to write your own GRDDL to do that.
- [23:09:12] <chimezie>
The name is too contentious.. IMHO
- [23:10:30] <AlexanderGraf>
you always need the prefix.
- [23:10:56] <tommorris>
As I said, the reasoning (beyond failing attempts at humour) is that microformats focus on specific problems - while 'macro' refers to the fact that it can cover wider, less-rigidly-defined problems.
- [23:11:31] <tommorris>
That is both a good thing *and* a bad thing at the same time.
- [23:11:48] <AlexanderGraf>
and, by grounding concepts, everyone can create their own macroformat without going through a review process
- [23:12:01] <chimezie>
I understand, it's just the ravenous nature of the communities causes the name to bottom out into nothing but a catalyst
- [23:13:01] <tommorris>
If there's absolute wild, rampaging furuor making over the name, I'll change the damn thing. I'm not attached to it, except for the fact that I spent some $$ on a domain.
- [23:13:03] <chimezie>
people should be encouraged to use rich , expressive (*well-formed*) markup , not to pit one against the other
- [23:13:24] <tommorris>
That is what, in fact, we all want.
- [23:13:34] <JamieKnight_>
yeah, i agree,
- [23:13:39] <Ashe``>
yup
- [23:13:59] <JamieKnight_>
no more tag soup.....
- [23:16:46] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:18:43] <JamieKnight_>
damn it, my connection died again,
- [23:19:03] * woodss (i=w_laptop@modem-2648.hartebeest.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [23:19:03] <jibot>
woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
- [23:19:06] * JamieKnight_ is now known as jammie
- [23:19:17] * jammie is now known as jammie_
- [23:19:22] <woodss>
hello
- [23:19:40] <jammie_>
hiya,
- [23:27:14] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has left #microformats
- [23:41:22] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
- [23:59:48] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) Quit ("Leaving.")
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