IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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[01:15:38] <vbgunz> is there a definitive list of correct values one can use with "honorific prefixes and suffixes"?
[01:15:50] <vbgunz> I am googling too
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[01:31:42] <vbgunz> well if it helps anyone, I found these in Kontact: Dr.|Miss|Mr.|Mrs.|Ms.|Prof. (prefixes) and these: I|II|III|Jr.|Sr. (suffixes), though it appears, you can pretty much put in anything you want... i am just looking for the most common *fixes
[01:34:06] <vbgunz> "Man of the Year is not an honorary title."
[01:34:12] <vbgunz> heh
[01:42:34] <woodss> what about Rev.
[01:56:54] <vbgunz> so many options exists for suffix, it's not even funny... no wonder you cannot find a definitive list on it... I think those I listed above are fine
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[07:14:43] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[07:27:19] <jibot> woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
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[08:33:45] <jibot> woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
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[09:06:11] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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[09:45:37] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
[09:48:33] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13602 * Phae * (-7) Updating information
[09:49:34] <mfbot> [[events/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2&diff=0&oldid=13603 * Phae * (+37)
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[09:50:28] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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[10:12:15] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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[10:18:10] <jibot> amette is http://amette.eu
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[10:23:07] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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[10:34:09] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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[10:45:32] <jibot> woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
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[10:59:49] <HenrichP> hello, I am having problems posting to the new mailing list, anybody else expiriencing any difficulties?
[11:00:26] <Ashe> no, works fine for me
[11:00:28] <Ashe> which one?
[11:01:16] <mfbot> [[events/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2&diff=0&oldid=13604 * ChristopheDucamp * (+61) Added photo of microformats panel gang (chris, ben, brian, jeremy)
[11:04:58] <HenrichP> microformats-new@microformats.org
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[11:05:35] <Ashe> From: newsletter@2000grad.com
[11:05:35] <Ashe> Subject: [uf-new] Sign Microformatted content & Build Microformat for Digital Signatures
[11:05:35] <Ashe> Date: 19. Februar 2007 08:00:39 GMT+01:00
[11:05:35] <Ashe> To: microformats-new@microformats.org
[11:05:35] <Ashe> Reply-To: microformats-new@microformats.org
[11:05:44] <Ashe> i think it worked
[11:06:26] <HenrichP> hmmm ... thanks ... I ll chekc my client to see why I am not seeing it :-)
[11:06:52] <Ashe> i think the list is configured that you don't get your own emails per default
[11:07:05] <Ashe> you will have to change that in the mailman options
[11:07:12] <Ashe> i had the same issue yesterday
[11:07:27] <HenrichP> ohhh ... okey
[11:09:34] <HenrichP> ahh ... I never looked at those options :-) ... thanks for the hint Ashe.
[11:09:45] <Ashe> any time
[11:10:09] <BenWard> @mfbot: Re: [[events/2007-02-17-barcamplondon2]] — Well don't we all look excited. I'm pretty sure someone filmed that panel, too. I don't know who though. Nor where will end up.
[11:14:35] <bengee> Ashe, still looking for erdf-rdfa-mf comparison criteria?
[11:14:42] <Ashe> yup
[11:16:21] <bengee> I wrote a little comparison tool at http://bnode.org/blog/2007/02/12/comparison-of-microformats-erdf-and-rdfa
[11:16:25] <Ashe> specifically for benefits of microformats over e/RDF/a
[11:16:40] <Ashe> yeah, i checked that out already
[11:17:04] <bengee> the rdfa folks didn't really like it as it shows that for most requirements MFs are just fine
[11:17:29] <Ashe> ok
[11:17:43] <Ashe> Are you somehow involved with the microformats team?
[11:18:31] <bengee> no, I'm just trying to make the rdf folks acknowledge the great deployment success of the MF community
[11:18:46] <Ashe> hm, i see
[11:18:47] <Ashe> well
[11:19:45] <Ashe> I'm working for DERI (www.deri.org) and we're evaluating the practical uses of eRDF/RDFa/microformats for a specific task regarding annotation of data with semantic concepts in websites
[11:20:22] <Ashe> the problem is, there is no microformat which does what we need it to do
[11:21:01] <Ashe> now we can either suggest a new microformat, sit through the process of evaluation and dedicate our whole working group to this task
[11:21:02] * bengee worked at galway for stefan in 2004
[11:21:07] <Ashe> ha :)
[11:21:16] <Ashe> nice
[11:21:23] <Ashe> I'm in innsbruck though
[11:21:32] <bengee> lucky you ;)
[11:21:42] <Ashe> galway's nice too
[11:21:43] <bengee> wrt to the weather
[11:22:00] <bengee> yeah
[11:22:06] <Ashe> yeah, weather's probably better here... although we didn't have any snow this winter
[11:22:36] <Ashe> galway is more involved in rdf/triple/web semantic stuff though
[11:22:42] <Ashe> innsbruck is mostly research
[11:22:50] <bengee> right
[11:23:04] <Ashe> anyway
[11:23:23] <Ashe> we're in the decision making process atm
[11:23:48] <Ashe> so i need really good arguments either for or against microformats
[11:24:01] <Ashe> RDFa is out of the picture anyway
[11:24:10] <Ashe> so its eRDF vs. microformats now
[11:24:10] <bengee> oh, why that?
[11:24:22] <Ashe> because it doesn't work with XHTML/HTML pages
[11:24:33] <Ashe> and we need the annotation in the next 2 years
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[11:25:19] <bengee> well, it does *work* (i.e. it won't break browsers etc)
[11:25:32] <Ashe> it's not valid though :)
[11:25:54] <bengee> yeah, I'm annoying them with that argument all the time..
[11:26:18] <Ashe> :>
[11:26:26] <bengee> so, if MFs don't support your use case at all, I'd say, go for eRDF
[11:26:35] <Ashe> no, we need a mainstream WORKING solution
[11:26:49] <Ashe> so yeah either erdf or microformats
[11:26:59] <Ashe> personally i'd prefer microformats
[11:27:10] <Ashe> and we have a defined use case
[11:27:16] <bengee> I'm trying to mix the two, MFs for persons, events, tags, etc, eRDF for glue code and more fine-grained stuff
[11:27:33] <Ashe> yeah, that should be possible
[11:27:56] <bengee> with resource consolidation via html IDs, MF's bookmark hints etc
[11:28:07] <Ashe> well it's not a big secret so i can be more specific i think
[11:28:15] <Ashe> we need to annotate data on tourism websites
[11:28:43] <Ashe> hcard for contact and hreview for hotel stars (1-5) and short overview works quite well
[11:28:56] <KevinMarks> so what is missing?
[11:29:03] <Ashe> but we need to annotate more data like number of rooms in accomodations
[11:29:10] <Ashe> and services offered by accomodations
[11:29:41] <Ashe> we could use rel="tag" with machine tags but that would break presentation layer i think
[11:29:57] <KevinMarks> hm
[11:30:04] <KevinMarks> sounds liek tags
[11:30:27] <KevinMarks> and # of rooms is almost a rating on a rooms tag a la hreview
[11:30:29] <KevinMarks> not quite
[11:30:48] <Ashe> no that's not semantically correct i think
[11:30:54] <bengee> if you give the item in the hreview an id, you can simply nest an eRDF literal inside
[11:31:00] <KevinMarks> what's the mime type for json?
[11:31:21] <Ashe> text/json
[11:31:39] <Ashe> or application/json
[11:32:09] <Ashe> Personally I'm thinking about a new microformat
[11:32:24] <Ashe> like hAccomodation or something
[11:32:57] <Ashe> we could use some existing formats
[11:33:05] <Ashe> but machine tags don't work well i think
[11:33:25] <KevinMarks> oh, yea mena flicr-style mahcine tags?
[11:33:29] <KevinMarks> no, they don't work
[11:33:40] <Ashe> yeah
[11:33:46] <KevinMarks> why not simple rel-tags?
[11:33:47] <Ashe> rooms:number=12
[11:33:50] <Ashe> like?
[11:33:59] <KevinMarks> or else xoxo
[11:34:06] <Ashe> <div rel="tag">swimmingpool</div>
[11:34:25] <KevinMarks> <dl><dt>rooms</dt><dd>12</dd></dl>
[11:34:36] <Ashe> ok
[11:34:38] <KevinMarks> no, thats wrong
[11:34:46] <Ashe> i get the meaning
[11:34:50] <Ashe> opening hours?
[11:34:58] <Ashe> rooms available on a specific day?
[11:35:24] <KevinMarks> <a href="http://accommodationsite.org/tag/swimming%20pool" rel="tag">swimming pool</a>
[11:35:35] <KevinMarks> hCalendar
[11:35:45] <Ashe> it will need to work with existing websites
[11:35:48] <KevinMarks> see discussion on the list re that
[11:36:21] <Ashe> we'd still prefer a special tourism related microformat
[11:37:05] <KevinMarks> well, start the process with gathering markup
[11:37:31] <Ashe> yeah, we will define exact use cases anyway
[11:37:52] <Ashe> we've already got a complete ontology on that
[11:37:59] <Ashe> which has been accepted by our partners
[11:38:00] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=13605 * ChristopheDucamp * (+203) sync'd
[11:39:58] <Ashe> But in general, is the creation of a new format easily possible?
[11:40:38] <KevinMarks> well, not with a predefined ontology, to be fair
[11:40:52] <KevinMarks> that is a bit backwars in micrformat terms
[11:41:12] <Ashe> could you elaborate on that?
[11:41:29] <Ashe> i'm not sure i understand ...
[11:41:48] <KevinMarks> the process isn't supposd ot rubber-stamp your pre-defined ontology
[11:41:57] <KevinMarks> but to work by examinign existing practices in general
[11:42:01] <Ashe> of course
[11:42:04] <KevinMarks> and finding the 80% overlap
[11:42:20] <Ashe> we could still use the ontology to define the use cases
[11:42:36] <Ashe> i know the creation of a new format is community based
[11:42:40] <Ashe> which is fine for us
[11:42:46] <Ashe> the deadline for the first deliverable is july 2007, though
[11:43:05] <Ashe> so we'd need at least a general working principle by then
[11:43:28] <KevinMarks> that should be doable
[11:43:30] <iand> if you just go ahead and work out a microformat that works for you then you can start using it straight away. If it proves popular and other sites use the same patterns then the mf community can look at adopting it later
[11:44:11] <Ashe> iand: i'm not sure this would be the best idea
[11:44:43] <Ashe> since we're a research institute and not a company we're interested in working with the mf community, not just pushing a new standard
[11:45:08] <iand> but that is the de facto standardisation process
[11:45:27] <iand> mf community doesn't want to create new microformats without real world experience and examples
[11:45:49] <iand> it's a chicken and egg situation
[11:45:53] <Ashe> oh ok, then i just misunderstood you
[11:46:08] <Ashe> yes, we're preparing the use cases and working examples and parsers
[11:46:36] <Ashe> but we want the community involved in the process of defining the format
[11:46:36] <iand> i'm sure there are many examples of accomodation sites publishing details on the web. i would imagine that only a small fraction are using what we'd term semantic markup
[11:47:13] <iand> so there's not enough existing practice for the mf community to base a spefication on
[11:47:19] <iand> (this is just my speculation)
[11:47:23] <Ashe> Do you know Tiscover?
[11:47:29] <KevinMarks> I have a friends and family doing it
[11:47:30] <iand> no, got a url?
[11:47:35] <KevinMarks> so could mark them up
[11:47:38] <Ashe> tiscover.com
[11:47:56] <KevinMarks> and get feedback
[11:48:06] <Ashe> it's a large company doing travel information and stuff
[11:48:33] <Ashe> we're working with them, so theoretically we could push a new microformat across like 1000 websites in a few hours
[11:49:00] <iand> that would be good. any improvement on the html semantics would be useful anyway
[11:49:07] <KevinMarks> http://theboomerangs.com/ is my sister
[11:49:22] <Ashe> ok, nice
[11:49:38] <iand> KevinMarks - looks intriguing
[11:49:43] <Ashe> indeed
[11:49:51] <iand> nice views :)
[11:50:09] <KevinMarks> so could get them to mark it p
[11:50:29] <Ashe> is there someting like a URL pattern? Lets say you only have the contact details hcard on say /contact.html, how do you discover that from the main page?
[11:50:38] <Ashe> just crawl the entire site?
[11:50:47] <Ashe> or is there a recommended process?
[11:50:55] <iand> (btw, Ashe, i'm inventor of erdf which you could use if you have an existing RDF vocabulary)
[11:51:17] <Ashe> we only have an ontology so far
[11:51:24] <iand> in RDF?
[11:51:28] <Ashe> OWL
[11:51:28] <iand> or OWL
[11:51:40] <iand> that's ok - erdf would work
[11:51:56] <iand> but it's still worth properly investigating microformats
[11:52:01] <Ashe> oh, you're Ian Davis?
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[11:52:13] <Ashe> hah, didn't look at the nick -.-
[11:52:13] <iand> yep
[11:52:18] <Ashe> Pleasure to meet you
[11:52:21] <Ashe> if only online :)
[11:52:22] <iand> likewise
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[11:52:53] <Ashe> the big benefit i see in microformats personally is the catchy name and the mainstream adoption
[11:53:08] <iand> dedicated microformats have the advantage of being easy for humans to understand and write
[11:53:23] <iand> which means there's likely to be larger adoption
[11:53:42] <Ashe> yes
[11:53:45] <Ashe> exactly
[11:53:46] <iand> erdf has the advantage of regular parsing and the bridge to the rdf world
[11:54:05] <iand> at the expense of not being quite so nice to write for a human - they still need to understand the ontology
[11:54:06] <Ashe> thats why our institute would probably favor eRDF
[11:54:20] <iand> i advocate both :)
[11:54:29] <Ashe> me too
[11:54:36] <iand> they can coexist. use erdf for the detail, but don't forget hreview, hcard etc
[11:54:40] <Ashe> i think we could in the end even use both
[11:54:52] <Ashe> yes, exactly but i'd go a step further
[11:55:12] <iand> here's an example of a mf that's outside the mf community process
[11:55:13] <iand> http://selfdescription.org/
[11:55:35] <Ashe> Thanks for the url
[11:55:36] <iand> if it gets traction then the author will likely want to present it to the mf community
[11:55:45] <Ashe> mhm i understand
[11:55:48] <Ashe> sweet
[11:56:04] <iand> but he's trying to prove it first (i mentored his Masters thesis on this subject)
[11:56:50] <Ashe> you're teaching?
[11:57:14] <iand> no, my company (Talis) runs a student program
[11:57:19] <Ashe> ah nice
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[11:57:26] <Ashe> i knew you were working for talis
[11:57:32] <Ashe> but not about the student programs
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[11:57:53] <Ashe> i think we could define a microformat for accomodations which wraps hCard, hReview, hCalendar and the new ones like opening hours and currency stuff but still solves our specific use case. then present it to the mf community and maybe it gets adopted.
[11:58:07] <Ashe> at the same time we could use eRDF... they don't conflict
[11:58:12] <iand> yes
[11:58:21] <Ashe> and we could get triples more easily
[11:58:23] <iand> i'd like that - lots of jucy rdf to play with
[11:58:42] <KevinMarks> who's got a servcie that returns JSON?
[11:58:59] <iand> me
[11:59:15] <KevinMarks> url?
[11:59:50] <iand> http://api.talis.com/1/bib/holdings?isbn=0140175059&output=json
[12:00:16] <iand> (it's a list of which libraries have a copy of that book)
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[12:03:03] <Ashe> right... i've got a presentation at deri in a few weeks, so i'll be recommending both
[12:05:54] <KevinMarks> http://65536characterhomepage.com/cgi-bin/jsontoxoxo.py?url=http%3A//api.talis.com/1/bib/holdings%3Fisbn%3D0140175059%26output%3Djson
[12:06:08] <iand> neat xoxo
[12:06:15] <Ashe> nice, yeah
[12:06:52] <Ashe> thanks KevinMarks and iand for the heads up
[12:07:05] <iand> np, good luck
[12:07:12] <Ashe> cheers
[12:07:21] <iand> feel free to ask if you have any questions
[12:07:31] <KevinMarks> round-trip:
[12:07:35] <Ashe> sure, i'll stay here ;)
[12:07:36] <KevinMarks> http://65536characterhomepage.com/cgi-bin/xoxotojson.py?url=http%3A//65536characterhomepage.com/cgi-bin/jsontoxoxo.py%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A//api.talis.com/1/bib/holdings%253Fisbn%253D0140175059%2526output%253Djson
[12:07:48] <KevinMarks> clearly I need to put this on a shorter domain
[12:07:49] <KevinMarks> ;)
[12:07:52] <iand> very neat
[12:08:08] <iand> what's the subset of xoxo that is supported?
[12:08:13] <iand> all except UL i guess?
[12:08:34] <KevinMarks> well, it looks for class="xoxo" on ul or ol at the moment
[12:08:50] <KevinMarks> could make it looser with a minor bit of work
[12:09:06] <KevinMarks> or an extra parameter
[12:10:03] <KevinMarks> each way is only a few liens, as it is using existing libraries
[12:10:58] <iand> hmmmm. i get an error for http://65536characterhomepage.com/cgi-bin/xoxotojson.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.talis.local%2Fbf%2Fstores%2Fukbib%2Fservices%2Ffacet%3Fquery%3Dseuss%26fields%3Dauthor%252Ctitle%252Cyear%26top%3D10%26output%3Dhtml
[12:11:05] <iand> probably a uri encoding issue
[12:11:52] <iand> on my part that is
[12:12:36] <iand> orig url was http://api.talis.local/bf/stores/ukbib/services/facet?query=seuss&fields=author%2Ctitle%2Cyear&top=10&output=html
[12:12:39] <iand> ah
[12:12:42] <KevinMarks> double escaped the title and year
[12:12:43] * iand slaps head
[12:12:48] <iand> http://api.talis.com/bf/stores/ukbib/services/facet?query=seuss&fields=author%2Ctitle%2Cyear&top=10&output=html
[12:13:03] <iand> works now
[12:13:04] <iand> http://65536characterhomepage.com/cgi-bin/xoxotojson.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.talis.com%2Fbf%2Fstores%2Fukbib%2Fservices%2Ffacet%3Fquery%3Dseuss%26fields%3Dauthor%252Ctitle%252Cyear%26top%3D10%26output%3Dhtml
[12:13:21] <KevinMarks> I left debug on, so you get a pretty stackcrawl
[12:13:23] <iand> (helps if you use the public hostname rather than the internal test server)
[12:13:24] <KevinMarks> ;)
[12:13:31] <Ashe> what mime type are you using now?
[12:14:00] <KevinMarks> it's using text/html as I need to do servre config to make json work
[12:14:07] <KevinMarks> and this is a preliminary hack
[12:14:16] <KevinMarks> as it's 4am and I'm off to bed...
[12:14:30] <Ashe> huh
[12:14:31] <Ashe> nn
[12:14:45] <iand> bye KevinMarks
[12:14:51] <KevinMarks> night
[12:15:00] <KevinMarks> I think the idea is useful though
[12:15:27] <KevinMarks> especialy if I hook it up to one of the xoxo-outline scripts
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[12:16:20] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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[12:41:36] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13606 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Upcoming - ordering
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[13:01:44] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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[14:14:46] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[14:21:13] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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[14:33:07] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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[14:34:28] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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[14:42:36] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
[14:45:34] * woodss (i=w_laptop@modem-284.iguana.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
[14:45:35] <jibot> woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
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[15:04:33] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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[15:52:03] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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[16:01:52] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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[16:26:15] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=13607 * ChristopheDucamp * (+676) sync'd
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[16:27:14] <jibot> TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social.
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[16:35:11] <mfbot> [[presentations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations&diff=0&oldid=13608 * GlennJones * (+258) 2007 -
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[16:39:45] <tommorris> I've just been looking at hAtom - why is entry-title required?
[16:40:38] <Ashe> http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/#requiredEntryElements
[16:40:42] <Ashe> because of this tom
[16:41:10] <Ashe> Required Elements of <entry>: id, title, updated
[16:41:23] <tommorris> Ah, that sucks. I would have implemented hAtom if it wasn't for that.
[16:41:34] <Ashe> well
[16:41:44] <Ashe> the atom spec requires a title
[16:42:14] <tommorris> My blog doesn't have titled entries.
[16:42:23] <Ashe> url?
[16:42:29] <tommorris> http://blogs.opml.org/tommorris
[16:43:07] <Ashe> your feed isnt atom
[16:43:10] <Ashe> it's rss 2.0
[16:43:17] <Ashe> and it doesn't have any entries at all
[16:43:29] <tommorris> The RSS?
[16:43:34] <Ashe> yep
[16:43:52] <tommorris> It does, it's just Firefox probably isn't showing it to you.
[16:44:03] <tommorris> Because Firefox doesn't display untitled entries either.
[16:44:09] <Ashe> i'm looking at the source
[16:44:20] <Ashe> oh ok
[16:44:45] <Ashe> newsfire isn't displaying it either
[16:44:51] <Ashe> and the validator complains too
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[16:45:02] <jibot> TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social.
[16:45:20] <trovster> Why don't you do <abbr title="" class="updated entry-title"> ?
[16:45:30] <TylerR> Morning all.
[16:45:33] <trovster> And what is <a name="When:6:54:37AM"></a> for?
[16:45:34] <tommorris> trovster: cool idea.
[16:46:53] <tommorris> Well, the plan is, if I can write hAtom in to the new templating engine I've written, then all that stuff won't have to matter.
[16:47:13] <trovster> Why does it matter atm ?
[16:47:32] <Ashe> trovster: i'm advising against that
[16:47:43] <Ashe> entries should have a title as per the specification
[16:47:56] <trovster> Yeh, and the title of that entry is the date it was posted.
[16:48:03] <tommorris> I don't give a toss what the specifications say. I'm not changing my behaviour to meet a specification.
[16:49:05] <Ashe> ah sorry, you're throwing the date in as a title... didn't see that. I just thought you'd want a blank title
[16:49:07] <trovster> I agree with that statement, although, someone could argue that you simple don't use that technology.
[16:49:30] <Ashe> Exactly
[16:49:43] <Ashe> i mean... what do you want a newsfeed for if nobody can read it
[16:49:49] <tommorris> Well, the plan is that I'm going to offer an hAtommed XSL and a non-hAtommed XSL and people can put whatever they want.
[16:49:58] <trovster> Nobody can read it? Of course they can
[16:50:13] <Ashe> all my newsreaders don't display it
[16:50:17] <Ashe> if the title is empty
[16:50:34] <tommorris> Change your newsreader then. My newsreader displays untitled entries just fine.
[16:50:40] <trovster> Yeh, the title won't be empty if he sets it as the time, therefore it'll work in your newsreader.
[16:50:47] <trovster> It should, ala the spec.
[16:51:12] <Ashe> trovster: with your solution it's going to work
[16:51:17] <Ashe> as it is now, it doesn't
[16:51:21] <trovster> Yeh, which is good.
[16:51:26] <Ashe> but your solution follows the spec
[16:51:33] <trovster> But, setting the title as the date, so it works in all newsreaders, then so beit.
[16:51:34] <trovster> Yes.
[16:51:35] <Ashe> and tom said [17:45:17] <tommorris> I don't give a toss what the specifications say. I'm not changing my behaviour to meet a specification.
[16:51:38] <trovster> And you're advising against it.
[16:51:51] <trovster> [16:45:20] <trovster> Why don't you do <abbr title="" class="updated entry-title"> ? [16:47:34] <Ashe> trovster: i'm advising against that
[16:52:04] <Ashe> trovster: [17:46:19] <Ashe> ah sorry, you're throwing the date in as a title... didn't see that. I just thought you'd want a blank title
[16:52:21] <tommorris> Don't worry about it, guys. I'll figure out a non-microformatted solution and write the transform to Atom/RSS myself
[16:52:41] <trovster> <abbr title="iso-date" class="updated entry-title">your date</abbr>
[16:52:47] <trovster> That'll 'work' fine.
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[16:53:58] <Ashe> yes it will
[16:54:17] <trovster> Whether the parsers will handle it, is another matter
[16:54:36] <Ashe> trovster: as i said, i just didn't read the whole class and thought you would just place an empty title in the entry
[16:54:52] <Ashe> they should as it doesn't require nesting
[16:55:07] <kchrist> ?def kchrist is Kenn Wilson in San Francisco (http://www.3color.org/~kwilson/)
[16:55:07] <jibot> kchrist is Kenn Wilson in San Francisco (http://www.3color.org/~kwilson/)
[16:55:13] <kchrist> hm
[16:55:53] <kchrist> are there any open source hAtom and/or hCalendar proxies out there?
[16:55:56] <tommorris> As I said, I'll use semantic class names and write a parser to turn it in to RSS 2.0 - since Atom can't handle untitled feeds.
[16:56:17] <trovster> Well, why not parse it to Atom then convert to RSS2?
[16:56:18] <tommorris> kchrist: I've just published a microformat-to-RDF API.
[16:56:29] <kchrist> I'm aware of the ones at technorati and lukearno.com, but I'm looking for something I can run on my own server.
[16:56:45] <trovster> X2V ?
[16:57:13] <kchrist> tommorris: url?
[16:57:13] <Ashe> tommorris: RSS2 can handle empty titles if description is present. however most readers will not display the feed correctly
[16:57:18] <trovster> tommorris: http://tools.microformatic.com/help/xhtml/hatom/ -- convert to Atom + RSS
[16:58:17] <tommorris> http://tools.opiumfield.com/mf/rdf/*URL* - reads hCalendar, hCard, XFN and rel-licence
[16:58:40] <tommorris> Will also soon read hDoap, geourl and hReview.
[16:59:18] <trovster> HDoap?
[16:59:40] <tommorris> Description of a Project in HTML - it's not an official microformat, but someone at the W3C has written it.
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[17:07:18] <kchrist> trovster: nice. is that yours?
[17:07:35] <trovster> Nope.
[17:07:38] <trovster> drew's
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[17:08:24] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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[17:09:12] <kchrist> do you know if source is available? I frankly have no idea how to implement something like hAtom2atom myself.
[17:09:26] <tommorris> kchrist: what environment are you trying to implement it on?>
[17:09:32] <kchrist> lamp
[17:09:40] <tommorris> Okay. I can tell you exactly what you need to do.
[17:10:09] <kchrist> that would be great
[17:10:17] <tommorris> Firstly, do you need to read pages that aren't well-formed XHTML?
[17:10:24] <kchrist> nope
[17:10:35] <tommorris> Okay. That makes it even easier.
[17:10:44] <tommorris> Do you have PHP5 installed?
[17:10:57] <kchrist> I'll just be using it for my own stuff, which I obviously control, so I'm not worried about supporting tagsoup
[17:11:01] <kchrist> yes
[17:11:39] <tommorris> Right, take this file - http://rbach.priv.at/hAtom2Atom/hAtom2Atom.xsl
[17:11:42] <tommorris> and put it in the same folder as the script you want to run.
[17:13:55] <kchrist> got it
[17:15:26] <tommorris> I'm just writing you a script that'll do the job
[17:15:36] <kchrist> really? wow, thanks
[17:16:33] <kchrist> I just don't like relying on 3rd parties for stuff like this if I can do it myself (or make an attempt, in some cases)
[17:16:54] <tommorris> http://rafb.net/p/TuHzLZ46.html
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[17:17:48] <kchrist> got it
[17:18:18] <tommorris> You might want to use .htaccess to make your URLs pretty
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[17:19:49] <kchrist> so I just load this with ?url=<source url>
[17:19:51] <tommorris> Sorry, there's a mistake in that PHP.
[17:20:03] <kchrist> heh. which line?
[17:20:04] <tommorris> $processor->importStylesheet($sheet) needs to be ($xsl) instead.
[17:20:08] <tommorris> line 8
[17:20:25] <kchrist> fixed
[17:20:54] <tommorris> Yeah, you can load it just as you said. You might want to use a RewriteRule to make pretty URLs
[17:21:28] <tommorris> Obviously, if you are only importing stuff from one site, you might want to change the first line.
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[17:26:28] <kchrist> should this work with a stock php5?
[17:26:42] <tommorris> it might not work if you don't have XSLT installed.
[17:26:46] <kchrist> I'm seeing some errors. still checking..
[17:26:54] <tommorris> What sort of errors are you seeing?
[17:27:25] <kchrist> I pulled a url from the microformats wiki to test on and am getting this:
[17:27:26] <kchrist> XML Parsing Error: junk after document element
[17:27:26] <kchrist> Location: http://tools/hatom/convert.php?url=http://www.volume.co.uk/
[17:27:26] <kchrist> Line Number 2, Column 1:
[17:27:43] <kchrist> <b>Warning</b>: DOMDocument::loadXML() [<a href='function.DOMDocument-loadXML'>function.DOMDocument-loadXML</a>]: Entity 'ndash' not defined in Entity, line: 82 in <b>/Users/kchrist/web/tools.synaesthetic.net/hatom/convert.php</b> on line <b>4</b><br />
[17:27:54] <tommorris> Ah, okay, you need to run your input through Tidy.
[17:28:14] <tommorris> I can guide you through that too.
[17:28:47] <kchrist> sure, thanks
[17:29:05] <tommorris> Can you get up a php_info() page?
[17:29:13] <tommorris> Sorry, phpinfo()
[17:29:32] <tommorris> Just make a new file, put <?php phpinfo(); ?> in it, hit save and go to it.
[17:30:21] <kchrist> sure, np
[17:31:02] <kchrist> what are you looking for?
[17:31:10] <Ashe``> tidy support in pgp
[17:31:13] <Ashe``> php even
[17:31:15] <tommorris> In that page, search for "tidy".
[17:31:32] <kchrist> damn, nothing.
[17:31:45] <tommorris> Okay, then we'll install the binary and set up a script to do it.
[17:31:57] <tommorris> Your server is Linux, right?
[17:32:28] <kchrist> my test server is actually OS X but the public server is linux. let me see if tidy is available there...
[17:33:02] <tommorris> Well, there are binaries for OS X and for Linux here - http://tidy.sourceforge.net/#binaries
[17:34:48] <kchrist> ah, it's a separate binary, not something that needs to be compiled into php?
[17:35:37] <kchrist> just installed on the mac and it looks like it's already on the linux server.
[17:39:29] <tommorris> Okay, just pasting the script in
[17:39:36] <tommorris> http://rafb.net/p/0aQdAg63.html
[17:40:16] <tommorris> All you need to do is put that in a file, change the path to your tidy install and then run your stuff through it.
[17:41:22] <tommorris> BTW, you can substitute any of the microformat-to-something-else XSL files in the examples i've just given you.
[17:43:41] <kchrist> so $format would be xml?
[17:44:03] <Ashe``> tommorris: do you know if there are any xsl files for other microformats?
[17:44:28] <KevinMarks> hCard and hCalendar
[17:44:30] <tommorris> kchrist: just put anything in - "xml". It's only there if you want extensibility.
[17:44:37] <Ashe``> nice
[17:44:38] <tommorris> Ashe: it depends on the output format.
[17:44:42] <Ashe``> hReview not though?
[17:44:50] <Ashe``> anything machine readable actually
[17:44:59] <Ashe``> rdf, xml, ... i don't care
[17:45:04] <tommorris> There are lots to turn them in to RDF. hCard and hCalendar turn them in to vCard and vCalendar actually.
[17:45:39] <Ashe``> specifically i need it for hcard, hcalendar and hreview
[17:45:41] <tommorris> if you just want to parse them as a sort of standard XML, then, don't use the RDF ones. They produce quite messy RDF intended for use in RDF parsers.
[17:46:00] <tommorris> What do you want to do with the data once you've extracted it?
[17:46:18] <Ashe``> depends
[17:46:34] <Ashe``> for the time being im just throwing it in a database
[17:46:37] <Ashe``> or a triple store
[17:46:55] <tommorris> The RDF ones will go in to a triple store quite neatly.
[17:47:30] <tommorris> It'd be possible to change those XSL files to do other things.
[17:47:50] <Ashe``> yeah, just checking whether i need to write my own
[17:47:54] <KevinMarks> this is where I get confused by talk or parsers
[17:48:11] <KevinMarks> *of parsers
[17:48:24] <Ashe``> where?
[17:48:32] <Ashe``> when it's about xsl and rdf? :>
[17:48:39] <KevinMarks> when you want to parse it, btu don't know what into
[17:48:50] <kchrist> I've saved the tidy function but am unsure where to put the call to it in the convert code.
[17:48:55] <tommorris> Well, Kevin, don't you agree that having some parsers to turn microformats in to normal XML so that it's easier to transform.
[17:49:06] <KevinMarks> no
[17:49:31] <KevinMarks> as there is not one simple mapping to 'normal XML'
[17:49:34] <kchrist> I've tried just before the $processor->transformToXML($html) line but that doesn't do it.
[17:50:07] <KevinMarks> as you have to make attribute versus child choices
[17:50:14] <Ashe``> KevinMarks: I need to work with the data. Its a research project so i don't care where i throw them. Triple stores, databases, xml, plain text, that's all fine by me. i just need a demonstration of a XSL parser...
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[17:50:34] <tommorris> kchrist: something like this should do the job. http://rafb.net/p/pEJBfd93.html
[17:52:02] <KevinMarks> Ryan did start some discussion on common JSON structures for microformats that made some sense
[17:52:02] <tommorris> Kevin - sure, but the point is that most people can do "vcard/fn" easier than they can do the XPaths necessary to extract MFs
[17:54:01] <KevinMarks> it's more of a 'what form do you actually want' question
[17:54:22] <tommorris> To which the answer is "what form does anyone want?"
[17:54:54] <Ashe``> fine, RDF triples for me then
[17:55:41] <tommorris> SPARQLing microformats is fun.
[18:05:37] <KevinMarks> what was it Wilde said, "Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live."
[18:06:29] <kchrist> I hate to say this, but I'm still not able to get this working.
[18:06:34] <kchrist> I'm still getting 'XML Parsing Error: junk after document element'
[18:06:47] <kchrist> DOMDocument::loadXML() [<a href='function.DOMDocument-loadXML'>function.DOMDocument-loadXML</a>]: StartTag: invalid element name in Entity, line: 1
[18:07:11] <kchrist> I'm trying to read http://quotedprintable.com/pages/scribbish , which is valid xhtml strict.
[18:07:35] <kchrist> I thought it was a validation problem, but it doesn't seem to be.
[18:08:13] <kchrist> I'm using the latest code you pasted, the only change being replacing HTTP_GET_VARS with _GET
[18:09:05] <tommorris> Hmm. Try temporarily suppressing errors. Change $html->loadXML() to @$html->loadXML().
[18:09:27] <tommorris> Often times, the DOM will chuck out loads of errors even tough it's still parseable
[18:09:50] <kchrist> slightly different error this time: DOMDocument::loadXML() [<a href='function.DOMDocument-loadXML'>function.DOMDocument-loadXML</a>]: Start tag expected, '<' not found in Entity, line: 1
[18:10:29] <tommorris> Oh, wait - I'm an idiot.
[18:10:46] <tommorris> Change $xsl->loadXML to $xsl->load.
[18:11:07] <tommorris> Too much BarCamp, too little sleep.
[18:12:57] <kchrist> so $xsl->load('hatom2atom.xsl') ?
[18:13:09] <tommorris> Yup
[18:13:40] <kchrist> DOMDocument::loadXML() [<a href='function.DOMDocument-loadXML'>function.DOMDocument-loadXML</a>]: StartTag: invalid element name in Entity, line: 1
[18:13:42] <kchrist> ugh
[18:14:18] <tommorris> Try changing $html->loadXML to loadHTML
[18:15:15] <kchrist> bad news
[18:15:17] <kchrist> DOMDocument::loadHTML() [<a href='function.DOMDocument-loadHTML'>function.DOMDocument-loadHTML</a>]: Unexpected end tag : html in Entity, line: 1
[18:15:54] <tommorris> Do your XHTML files have XML declarations that use valid encoding types?
[18:16:19] <trovster> <span class="caps">MIT</span> - ouch :(
[18:16:40] <kchrist> no, the first line is the XHTML DOCTYPE
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[18:17:53] <tommorris> Perhaps copy and paste your PHP in to Pastebin (rafb.net/paste) and I'll take a look
[18:24:24] <kchrist> this is what I've got in convert.php: http://pastebin.com/884600
[18:25:13] <kchrist> pretty much just what you gave me
[18:25:36] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) has joined #microformats
[18:25:37] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
[18:26:06] <kchrist> I've added an xml declaration
[18:26:14] * woodss (i=w_laptop@modem-284.iguana.dialup.pol.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
[18:26:33] <kchrist> and am getting 'Unexpected end tag : html in Entity, line: 1'
[18:29:36] <kchrist> the error references line 4 of convert.php
[18:30:20] <tommorris> Which is the line calling tidy
[18:30:42] <tommorris> That's strange. Try my tidy implementation. I'll paste it back
[18:32:39] <tommorris> http://pastebin.com/884610
[18:33:37] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.113.25.103.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
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[18:33:54] * iand (n=iand@213.205.252.240) has joined #microformats
[18:33:55] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
[18:34:29] * saff (n=saff@213.1.255.149) Quit ()
[18:35:16] <kchrist> believe it or not, I'm getting the same error: XML Parsing Error: junk after document element, DOMDocument::loadHTML() [<a href='function.DOMDocument-loadHTML'>function.DOMDocument-loadHTML</a>]: Unexpected end tag : html in Entity, line: 1
[18:35:21] <kchrist> this must be something on my end
[18:36:16] <tommorris> Gotta go. Hope you can fix the problem. I'm around on here and #swig quite often, so if you've got any other questions, feel free.
[18:36:43] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host217-42-76-246.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has left #microformats
[18:36:56] <kchrist> no problem. thanks a lot for the help, I really appreciate it.
[18:37:04] <kchrist> I'll see what I can do with this.
[18:38:43] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-198-189-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[18:38:54] <mfbot> [[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13609 * ChristopheDucamp * (+259)
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[19:02:15] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
[19:02:16] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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[19:14:25] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd186.rhi.hi.is) has joined #microformats
[19:14:26] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
[19:14:26] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
[19:15:07] <briansuda> i just launched planet microformats, anyone have any feedback? http://planetmicroformats.com/
[19:17:12] * iand (n=iand@213.205.252.240) Quit (Connection timed out)
[19:18:06] <tommorris> It's looking great.
[19:18:24] <tommorris> Might it be a good idea to have the same bot that we have in #swig running in #microformats?
[19:19:14] <tommorris> I'm subbed to the RSS feed for that and it's really useful (btw, thanks for posting the link to vCard on there brian)
[19:19:20] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.113.25.103.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
[19:20:07] <briansuda> there is a log bot in here
[19:20:26] <briansuda> not sure it is super useful to have a seperate one for URLs and comments about those URLs
[19:20:36] <briansuda> we can GREP those out of he IRC logs if needed
[19:20:48] <tommorris> Oh, okay. Is there a feed for the URL logger?
[19:21:21] <tommorris> Also, Ian has put up a lot of BarCamp videos at cubicgarden.blip.tv - our "microformats shoot-out" might be on there :)
[19:21:33] <briansuda> rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/
[19:21:35] <briansuda> link?
[19:22:12] <tommorris> My RDF one: http://cubicgarden.blip.tv/file/152047/
[19:22:21] <tommorris> The microformat/semweb one: http://cubicgarden.blip.tv/file/152044/
[19:24:45] <mkaply> briansuda: the "Planet Microformats Feed" has way old stuff
[19:24:56] <mkaply> briansuda: And there is no RSS feed for the actual page
[19:25:14] <briansuda> i added RSS on the top right, via feedburner
[19:25:31] <briansuda> there is old stuff in the list, i am working on sorting the RSS data at the moment
[19:25:46] <tommorris> Is this actual Planet the Python app or something equivalent?
[19:26:11] <mkaply> briansuda: ok. The RSS feed isn't showing up in Firefox (no LINK)
[19:26:38] <briansuda> ah, i don't have anything in the <head> yet.
[19:27:05] <briansuda> i am still deciding to use Feedburner or my own RSS, i need to see how often they refresh from my feed
[19:27:29] <briansuda> it is written in PHP, i have had the code sitting around for lifestream apps, now it is planet apps
[19:27:29] <tommorris> they check hourly. You can ping them via REST
[19:28:01] <briansuda> i check every 15 minutes for updates
[19:30:08] * tommorris is watching our panel from BarCamp
[19:36:06] * danja (n=danja@host203-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
[19:36:07] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
[19:44:33] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
[19:47:21] <mkaply> briansuda: is feedburner syndicating in reverse order a bug or a setting?
[19:47:44] <briansuda> i'm not sure, it might be catching-up, or the RSS i am feeding it is backwards.
[19:47:54] <briansuda> http://planetmicroformats.com/feed/
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[19:53:39] <mkaply> so hfeed is optional on an hAtom? Should I just be looking for hentry's then?
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[19:58:07] <mkaply> briansuda: your cheat sheet for hAtom doesn't seem to match http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema
[19:58:09] * RobertBachmann (n=rb@M2427P024.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
[19:58:10] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at> from Austria (TZ: 0100)
[19:58:23] <briansuda> mkaply, this is the man you need to talk too.
[19:58:48] <briansuda> RobertBachmann, there seems to be some drift in hAtom cheatsheets
[19:58:48] * Phae (n=phae@80-43-88-136.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
[19:58:48] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
[19:59:06] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema v.s. my PDF
[19:59:06] <mkaply> Are there hAtoms in the wild I can test with?
[19:59:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
[19:59:16] <Phae> oui
[19:59:36] <briansuda> planetmicroformats.com
[19:59:42] <Phae> you hatomed it?
[19:59:44] <RobertBachmann> phae's site also
[19:59:47] <briansuda> yup
[19:59:50] <Phae> yea
[19:59:56] <Phae> but also; http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Examples_in_the_wild
[19:59:59] <Phae> :)
[20:00:17] * mkaply noticed a problem right off the bat
[20:00:26] <mkaply> updated is required
[20:00:28] <mkaply> but
[20:00:30] <mkaply> # updated (ISO date) {1}
[20:00:30] <mkaply> * # if absent, defaults as described at hatom#Entry_Updated
[20:01:27] <Phae> It's a should, rather than a must
[20:02:29] <briansuda> entry-content (is that required or optional)?
[20:02:51] <mkaply> bold {1} Must be present exactly once
[20:03:12] * mkaply is looking at http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-cheatsheet
[20:03:16] <Phae> ohhh
[20:03:19] <Phae> Ok.
[20:03:44] <RobertBachmann> entry content is optioinal
[20:04:46] <Ashe``> id, title and updated are required
[20:04:54] * AlexanderGraf (n=Ashe@M508P014.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
[20:04:55] <jibot> AlexanderGraf is a designer and webdeveloper from Innsbruck, Austria who writes on http://www.aetherworld.org/ and works for DERI Innsbruck (http://www.deri.org/)
[20:04:57] <Phae> id being?
[20:05:31] <RobertBachmann> id is from rel-bookmark
[20:05:36] <Phae> bookmark?
[20:05:40] <Phae> ok, just checking.
[20:05:43] <KevinMarks> permalink
[20:06:13] <Phae> yea
[20:06:42] <Phae> oh, and you need a published or an updated
[20:06:54] <Phae> because if it can't find updated, it should look for published, else it's invalid
[20:07:07] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-e9ce166b9f637860) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[20:07:35] <briansuda> is entry-summary, entry-content (0-N)
[20:07:35] <Ashe``> are you sure?
[20:07:47] <briansuda> zero-many?
[20:07:50] <Ashe``> i think updated is a must
[20:07:53] <RobertBachmann> or if there's no bookmark then take the URL of the page and append the HTML id of the hentry element
[20:07:53] <RobertBachmann> thus for <div class="hentry" id="bar"> ... </div> stored at http://example.com/foo the ID would be http://example.com/foo#bar
[20:07:58] <Phae> yeah, pretty sure. http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Updated
[20:08:13] <Phae> entry should have updated, else seek published, else invalid
[20:08:29] <Ashe``> right you are
[20:08:39] <danja> ooh, this is so begging for photoshopping: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kk/389322202/
[20:09:10] <Ashe``> what would you want to photoshop there?
[20:10:05] <RobertBachmann> entry-summary and entry-content are both zero or many
[20:10:18] <RobertBachmann> both at least one should be present, according to Atom
[20:10:27] * RobertBachmann checks hatom draft
[20:11:20] <tommorris> hmm. Due to the title thing with hAtom, I'm going to have to write hRSS to map to RSS 2.0
[20:12:03] <briansuda> you can use hAtom->RSS, what is the issue with Title?
[20:12:20] <tommorris> title is required in atom. I post numerous blog entries that don't have titles.
[20:12:34] <Ashe``> and now I've got a really, really stupid question.... but the photo reminded me
[20:12:43] <Ashe``> where can i get a microformats shirt -.-
[20:13:40] <KevinMarks> so put a title runf the first few words with a span
[20:13:54] <KevinMarks> chris m has a store
[20:14:16] <tommorris> https://www.goodstorm.com/item/microformats/microformats_we_do_it_with_class
[20:14:22] <RobertBachmann> which shipps US only
[20:14:27] <RobertBachmann> last time I checked
[20:14:31] <Phae> Yeah.
[20:14:38] <Phae> I had a friend in the states send me mine.
[20:14:39] <RobertBachmann> so no shirt for me
[20:14:48] <Ashe``> yeah... but they 1) are too large for me 2) ship to us only 3) available only in black
[20:14:55] <Phae> I need a new one though. I'm not that keen on goodstorm's quality.
[20:15:00] <Phae> too large?
[20:15:03] <Ashe``> mhm
[20:15:07] <Phae> no way. I'm little. They do little girl's ones.
[20:15:13] <Ashe``> hey, i'm a slim guy
[20:15:19] <Phae> So? get a girls one :D
[20:15:40] <Ashe``> hm
[20:15:45] <Ashe``> k :D
[20:15:56] <KevinMarks> you should have got chrids ot bring you one on his european tour
[20:15:58] <Ashe``> then there's still 2 and 3
[20:16:07] <Ashe``> yeah... too late
[20:16:25] <Phae> And what's wrong with black? I think the logo suits black best.
[20:16:30] <KevinMarks> you don't like black> the black girsl ones look good in general
[20:16:47] <Ashe``> on girls
[20:16:48] <tommorris> To the people who I was discussing "macroformats" with yesterday, I can announce that macroformats is no longer the title because of the objections of Kevin and others. GetSemantic.com is the new URL, and we're gonna rethink the naming of what used to be called macroformats.
[20:16:50] <Ashe``> :>
[20:17:02] <Ashe``> nice tom
[20:17:05] <Phae> http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=girlsofmicroformats%20microformatstshirt&w=all
[20:17:17] <Ashe``> i'm still a guy, though
[20:17:20] <tommorris> We are also going to be promoting microformats a *lot*.
[20:17:27] <Phae> hehe
[20:17:30] <KevinMarks> yay tommorris
[20:17:31] <Ashe``> so I'd be a guy with a slim fitted black girls shirt
[20:17:34] <Phae> yay tom ;D
[20:18:05] <RobertBachmann> hAtom entry-content or entry-summary {0-many}: the draft isn't clear on that, my interpration is that for both you can have 0 or many
[20:18:10] <Phae> The lowercase semantic web is such a friendly lil bunch
[20:18:35] <tommorris> Anyone who wants to be involved with the GetSemantic project and work closer to saving the SemWeb from academic wankery and impracticality, PM me your e-mail address and you can be on the email list.
[20:18:53] <Ashe``> tommorris you got mine... can't pm here
[20:18:59] <Ashe``> please put me on the list
[20:19:42] <Ashe``> hm i think i just get a svg version of the logo or something and print it myself....
[20:20:40] <RobertBachmann> svg version is somewhere on the net
[20:20:59] <Phae> It is.
[20:21:08] <Phae> I can't think where now. Search the wiki and it might turn up.
[20:21:35] <tommorris> SVG: http://remiprevost.com/images/wallpapers/microformats/mf-vector.svg
[20:22:18] <Ashe``> yay, nice
[20:22:24] <Ashe``> thanks a bunch guys :)
[20:23:17] <tommorris> Ashe: I've lost your e-mail. My computer crashed.
[20:23:24] <Ashe``> bugger
[20:23:36] <Ashe``> can't pm here, account isnt registered
[20:23:41] <Ashe``> alexander.graf@deri.org
[20:26:06] * badd (i=ppopov@media.rc.edu) Quit ()
[20:26:23] <Ashe``> (let the admins deal with the spam i'll get now)
[20:27:46] <Ashe``> RobertBachmann you're from austria? Oo
[20:27:50] <RobertBachmann> yes
[20:27:54] <RobertBachmann> lower austria
[20:27:55] <Ashe``> ha, nice :)
[20:27:58] <Ashe``> servus
[20:27:59] <Ashe``> :>
[20:28:01] <RobertBachmann> near Wr. Neustadt
[20:28:04] <RobertBachmann> servus
[20:28:13] <Ashe``> I'm from Innsbruck
[20:29:22] <RobertBachmann> so you'll attend http://www.semanticscripting.org/SFSW2007/ ?
[20:29:33] <Ashe``> !!!!!!
[20:29:38] <Ashe``> didn't know that
[20:29:41] <Ashe``> of course
[20:29:46] <Ashe``> sexy
[20:29:47] <Ashe``> :D
[20:29:54] <Ashe``> first conference in innsbruck
[20:30:23] <Ashe``> will you be there?
[20:30:25] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
[20:33:15] <RobertBachmann> maybe
[20:33:26] <Ashe``> nice
[20:33:33] <RobertBachmann> If I find time to hack something together ;-)
[20:33:35] <Ashe``> wait a sec, switching computers
[20:34:29] <briansuda> RobertBachmann, can you have multiple 'published's in hatom?
[20:34:45] <Ashe``> no
[20:34:51] <Ashe``> not for one entry
[20:34:58] <RobertBachmann> on per entry
[20:35:01] <RobertBachmann> one*
[20:35:10] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-cheatsheet has it wrong i think? can you confirm
[20:35:42] <Ashe``> no, y?
[20:35:44] <Ashe``> published (ISO date)?
[20:35:52] <Phae> Shouldn't it be a +
[20:35:53] <Ashe``> Match 1 or 0 times
[20:35:58] <Ashe``> no
[20:35:59] <Phae> One per hEntry
[20:36:09] <Ashe``> one per hEntry and one for the feed
[20:36:10] <Ashe``> but
[20:36:11] <Phae> Which is many for each feed...?
[20:36:12] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-bf2548d6c328d8cf) has joined #microformats
[20:36:12] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
[20:36:19] <briansuda> i'll update the wiki then
[20:36:21] <Phae> I do a "published" for each entry.
[20:36:29] <Ashe``> you can also use updated for all
[20:36:34] <RobertBachmann> "published (ISO date)?" looks right
[20:36:38] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
[20:36:39] <Ashe``> it's correct
[20:37:04] <Phae> I think I'm confusing myself.
[20:37:04] <tommorris> Why do you need an updated for the feed? Surely, that breaks the Don't Repeat Yourself principle. Can't you infer feed update from the most recent item update?
[20:37:07] <Phae> ignore me.
[20:37:09] * briansuda was just incorrectly reading it
[20:37:24] <briansuda> you can have a published date, then an update later
[20:37:31] <RobertBachmann> tommoris, yes
[20:37:40] <Ashe``> tommorris: you can update individual entries as often as you want
[20:37:52] <Phae> We've had this "discussion" before. I questioned way back when I first hAtomed why published was preferred AFTER updated.
[20:37:54] <Ashe``> but for the feed you are correct
[20:38:04] <Phae> Since I didn't get why you could update before you published in the first place.
[20:38:23] <RobertBachmann> tommoris: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues#Feed_updated_.28atom:updated.29
[20:38:42] <briansuda> well, i think if you update, you get an implied published
[20:38:50] <RobertBachmann> no
[20:38:56] <mkaply> ok. hAtom support for Operator. You can bookmark the link or go to the web page. What other interesting things should you be able to do with it? Send it to delicious similar to xfolk?
[20:38:56] <RobertBachmann> the other way round
[20:39:12] <Phae> Yeah, I think that was how it ended up being explained.
[20:39:55] <tommorris> Hmm. The one thing that hAtom could do that Atom/RSS/syndication doesn't currently do is offer a way of gathering older material from the archives.
[20:40:23] <tommorris> On most blogs, there is no XML or syndicable version of old material. Standard class names could help that immensly.
[20:41:16] <briansuda> mkaply, (this is edge) but what about re-blog stuff. As you find an hEntry you can grok the data for your own blog
[20:41:23] <tommorris> There is a service - the name of which eludes my forgetful brain - which lets you drip-feed an RSS feed to yourself - so if you found a podcast with fifty episodes, you could have the archives delivered twice a week.
[20:41:43] <KevinMarks> mkaply: subscribe to it in a feed reader via a transofrmer?
[20:42:02] <mkaply> KevinMarks: I don't see anything in the hAtom that actually gives a feed URL...
[20:42:07] <tommorris> The problem with that is getting it to use Firefox's in-built feed functionality
[20:42:28] <tommorris> mkaply - that's because you need to transform it in to a feed.
[20:42:35] <KevinMarks> I mean via an hAtomtoAtom munger
[20:42:44] <KevinMarks> or uses a feedreader that supports hAtom
[20:42:53] <Phae> yeah, that'd be good
[20:43:15] <tommorris> I might modify my newsreader to support hAtom. I'll add that to the queue of things I ought to do someday.
[20:43:16] <KevinMarks> did ryan put one up on feeds.technorati.com?
[20:45:34] <briansuda> ryan was talking about adding it to the technorati feeds service, but...
[20:45:51] <mkaply> So I would essentially turn it into a static feed and store it in Firefox?
[20:45:54] <briansuda> the name is still up for debate, feeds.technorati.com/feeds? or /atom?
[20:45:54] * mkaply is missing something
[20:46:14] <Ashe``> atom
[20:46:28] <tommorris> Hmm. Found the chunk of code in NewsRiver (Windows and Mac RSS aggregator) which could be added to in order to support hAtom
[20:46:31] <Ashe``> mkaply: that would be great
[20:47:34] <mkaply> Ashe``: that kind of defeats the purpose of Live Bookmarks :)
[20:47:53] <tommorris> Dead Bookmarks. Would go down well with the goth crowd.
[20:47:59] <Ashe``> :>
[20:48:05] <Ashe``> not really i think
[20:48:10] <Ashe``> they could be updated
[20:48:16] <tommorris> It could be part of the XHTML Enemies Network.
[20:48:40] <mkaply> The thing that comes to mind is that when you see an hfeed, I could convert it to a feed and then give it to Firefox Live Bookmarks as a data URL (XML)
[20:48:53] <mkaply> Then you would have the live bookmark feed stored locally
[20:49:04] <mkaply> But it couldn't really be updated. Because the the feed itself would be the transformed data feed
[20:49:19] <Ashe``> you still have the originating url
[20:49:34] <Ashe``> and could update from there
[20:50:03] <mkaply> That would require a change to how live bookmarks worked. That might be trickier
[20:50:15] * danja (n=danja@host203-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
[20:50:17] <tommorris> Seems easier just to pump it through a web service.
[20:50:27] <mkaply> tommorris: that's what I'm thinking
[20:51:03] <mkaply> One of the other things I'm not sure to do with hAtom is should list each hentry in operator? is the hfeed itself that important (especially since it is optional)
[20:51:45] <Phae> You should list the feed, yeah
[20:51:51] <Phae> Since there may be many feeds on a page
[20:51:56] <tommorris> You can do things with feeds - perhaps push them off, via the webservice, to different web sites that do interesting things
[20:51:57] <Ashe``> i think you should list all items as a submenu
[20:52:12] <Phae> You'd not expect any other reader to pick up all the entries and list them until after you've selected the feed you want
[20:52:37] <mkaply> so how would it look in operator. If there were feeds, have feeds with entries as submenus. If the page is the feed, list all the entries in the main menu?
[20:53:03] <Ashe``> i would still use a submenu even if the page is the feed
[20:53:14] <Phae> I'm imagining, with Operator as it is, the pulldown would show a list of feeds
[20:53:17] <Ashe``> because the menu would get cluttered otherwise
[20:53:23] <Phae> and then maybe a subpulldown off that with the entries
[20:53:54] <Ashe``> click -> list of feeds -'> submenu with do something / do another thing / feed items. and feed items has a submenu with the individual items
[20:53:57] <Phae> Although you'd still want to be able to select a feed overall, no?
[20:54:08] <Phae> I suppose that can be on the sub level
[20:54:14] <Phae> right, like that
[20:54:18] <Ashe``> makes the most sense from a usability level i think
[20:54:33] <mkaply> Thank you for coming up with a UI that requires more Operator redesign :)
[20:54:46] <Phae> :D
[20:54:52] <Ashe``> :p
[20:54:54] <Ashe``> sorry
[20:55:13] <Ashe``> you could always list me as someone who helped
[20:55:28] <Ashe``> Ashe: the fuck who made me redesign the whole UI
[20:55:35] <Ashe``> or something
[20:55:35] <Ashe``> :>
[20:57:03] <briansuda> i updated the Cheatsheet PDF and added an RSS feed so you know of future updates
[20:57:04] <briansuda> http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/cheatsheet/
[20:57:38] <tommorris> I have so many 'cheat sheets' for so many formats and languages that I need a small book to put all my cheat sheets in. :)
[20:58:25] <tommorris> Brian: what format is the cheat sheet in before converting to PDF?
[20:58:52] * briansuda was just looking at http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=girlsofmicroformats%20microformatstshirt&w=all maybe that is what the RDF folks need, great t-shirts and women to model them!
[20:59:18] <tommorris> Also, Brian, shall I invite you to the GetSemantic mailing list?
[20:59:37] <briansuda> the cheatsheat is in InDesign before PDF, i was thinking of putting that up too so others could translate it, but there are only 3-4 english words on it
[20:59:45] <briansuda> sure, invite or send me a link
[21:00:26] <tommorris> Oh, okay. I'll rewrite it. I'm thinking of a microformats cheat sheet for in Palm Plucker PDB format so that I can carry it around on my Palm Pilot. PDF is great, but the Palm PDF reader sucks.
[21:01:25] <tommorris> Now that you have a feed for updates, it'll be easy to manually keep versions in sync.
[21:04:36] * Farrokh (n=farrokh@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) has joined #microformats
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[21:07:09] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[21:08:50] <mkaply> briansuda: You can't move stuff on me. My eyes are used to looking for xFolk under Geo
[21:09:04] * Lachy (n=Lachlan@203-166-250-95.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit ("Leaving")
[21:09:15] <Phae> I noticed the plant thing. I got excited
[21:09:26] <Farrokh> G'day all.
[21:09:31] <Phae> Hello
[21:09:41] <briansuda> I think it got moved to make room for hCite, but that was abit of a false start!
[21:10:09] <briansuda> there is an extra column on the right as well....
[21:10:56] <mkaply> I'll use that to make up my own microformat
[21:11:05] <tommorris> Oh man, hCite<->RDF is a workflow I would seriously dig.
[21:11:30] <Farrokh> I've been itching to use the presentation slides internally at my company for microformats, any restrictions for such usage?
[21:11:41] <Farrokh> Sorry, presentation slides used at Web Directions North.
[21:12:00] <briansuda> restrictions in what way?
[21:12:27] <Farrokh> Having them available internally on our file share.
[21:13:01] <Phae> I know some people mark their presentations with CC licenses.
[21:13:11] * mkaply tried to figure out how to define a microformat that doesn't necessarily have the microformat classname in it (like hatom)
[21:13:17] <Farrokh> We won't be altering the slides in any way, we'd just like to have them for offline reference.
[21:13:44] <briansuda> mkaply, that is just called semantic mark-up
[21:13:48] <Phae> Well, for example, Tantek's main slides (The Big Picture) use a CC
[21:13:54] <briansuda> i use class="initialism" all the time with <abbr>
[21:13:58] <briansuda> it isn't a microformats
[21:14:07] <briansuda> but then i can style that for screen-readers better, etc.
[21:14:11] <Phae> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/ is the one he's chosen
[21:14:26] * Phae notices CC lookin' pretty.
[21:14:27] <Farrokh> Ah right then Phae, thanks for that.
[21:14:42] <mkaply> briansuda: well in this case, operator searches the document for microformats. But it won't find any hfeeds. So I have to somehow say "if you don't find hfeeds, check for hentrys and then if you find them, consider the entire document to be the hfeed microformat"
[21:14:56] <Phae> Unless it has a CC or an explicit statement on it, you should clear it with the author first.
[21:15:00] <Phae> It's just polite :)
[21:15:11] <briansuda> mkaply, right, the same is for vcalendar (which isn't used)
[21:15:20] <Farrokh> Definitely. I'll be sending e-mails to the original authors letting them know of the usage.
[21:15:28] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abx104.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
[21:15:31] <mkaply> vcalendar is easier because everyone uses vevents anyway :)
[21:15:31] <briansuda> over the weekend i talked to the author of sumo javascript code
[21:15:39] <Phae> Cool :)
[21:15:50] <Farrokh> Were you in attendence Phae?
[21:16:05] <briansuda> mkaply, he's on board with the WebCards guys and you'll probably get an email soon
[21:16:08] <Phae> WDN? No, I wish.
[21:16:22] * danja (n=danja@host203-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
[21:16:22] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
[21:16:33] * danja (n=danja@host203-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[21:16:44] <Farrokh> Phae: Likewise. I was stuck building internal pages all week.
[21:17:21] <mkaply> briansuda: Yeah. We're trying to see if we can all do something together. He sounds like a mjor JS guru which I need bad. My code could probably use some help
[21:18:13] <briansuda> yeah Dan Webb (http://www.danwebb.net/) is a JS guru, i feel i know my stuff and he left me in the dust!
[21:18:48] <Phae> Yeah, Dan's top.
[21:18:56] <Phae> Ruby guy, too.
[21:19:30] <briansuda> his slides from the event are here: http://www.danwebb.net/2007/2/19/barcamp-london-2
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[21:19:30] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com>
[21:29:34] <mkaply> so for rel=tag on the hfeed (not the hentries) - would I pull any tag on the page that wasn't in an hentry (assuming there was no hfeed)
[21:29:57] <mkaply> and if there is an hfeed, pull any tag under hfeed that is not in an hentry
[21:30:45] * briansuda would say YES that without hFeed there any tag found on the page is part of the feed
[21:30:47] * RobertBachmann (n=rb@M2427P024.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving.")
[21:32:36] <mkaply> and what should I display as the "title" of the feed in the case where there is an hfeed. I can't just get the textcontent of the hfeed. IF it is the whole document, I can get the page title
[21:33:13] <briansuda> well, if i would still use <title> for the hfeed title
[21:33:32] <mkaply> but there might be multiple hfeeds on one page.
[21:33:36] <briansuda> even if there were two hfeeds, they would have the same title, i don;t think there is a mechanism to solve that right now
[21:34:25] <mfbot> [[criticism]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=criticism&diff=0&oldid=13610 * AndyMabbett * (+163) WebAIM discussion of microformat accessibility
[21:36:51] <mfbot> [[criticism]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=criticism&diff=0&oldid=13611 * AndyMabbett * (+3) Recent - fmt
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[21:38:32] <mfbot> [[criticism]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=criticism&diff=0&oldid=13612 * AndyMabbett * (+14) Recent - tweak
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[22:53:41] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
[22:56:03] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-197-25-180.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[22:56:04] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
[22:59:17] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-bf2548d6c328d8cf) Quit ("Leaving")
[23:00:24] <tommorris> Anyone who asked for an invite for GetSemantic should have got one
[23:00:39] <Ashe``> nope
[23:00:46] <Ashe``> :>
[23:03:10] <Ashe``> you've got my mail though?
[23:03:45] <tommorris> Haven't seen anything
[23:04:10] * Phae checks.
[23:04:10] <Ashe``> alexander.graf AT deri DOT org
[23:04:48] <Phae> nothin' here.
[23:05:03] <tommorris> Haven't had anything from you, Ashe
[23:05:17] <Ashe``> you've got now :)
[23:05:24] <Ashe``> I posted it earlier when you asked
[23:05:50] <tommorris> Oh, I thought you'd sent me something.
[23:06:12] <tommorris> Grr. GoogleGroups is annoying.
[23:06:24] <Ashe``> we should work on our communication i think Oo
[23:06:31] <Phae> hmm!
[23:06:33] <Ashe``> or rather
[23:06:40] <Ashe``> i should work on my english
[23:06:49] <Ashe``> i posted my email earlier
[23:06:55] <Ashe``> and i sent you an email too
[23:06:55] <Ashe``> :)
[23:07:27] <Ashe``> and apparently i didn't get yours and you didn't get mine...
[23:09:20] <Ashe``> anyway, i just wrote you to confirm my email address.
[23:10:30] <Phae> so yeah, I didn't get one.
[23:10:48] <Ashe``> hm
[23:12:14] <tommorris> okay, i've just resent them to all the people I can remember from that list
[23:12:41] <Phae> doot. got it
[23:12:51] <Ashe``> great, cheers, me too
[23:14:13] <Phae> Apparently i need approval
[23:14:18] <Ashe``> me too
[23:14:21] <Phae> ok
[23:14:31] <Phae> Just checking it wasn't because of my insane gmail account situation
[23:14:59] <Ashe``> i think it is ;>
[23:15:03] <Phae> cheers
[23:15:03] <Ashe``> mine is horrible too
[23:15:52] <tommorris> oh, okay. i'll approve them in just a sec.
[23:17:03] <Ashe``> bah
[23:17:22] <Ashe``> someone please come up with an aggregator for email addresses
[23:17:50] <Ashe``> 1000 accounts, each with a different mail address
[23:18:03] <tommorris> Email needs to be replaced with an XML format. In fact, a friend of mine is using Simple Sharing Extensions to RSS as a way of replacing email. :)
[23:18:19] <Ashe``> my god
[23:18:29] <Ashe``> well, could work
[23:18:43] <tommorris> The idea being that if you don't like an email conversation, you just unsubscribe.
[23:18:52] <Ashe``> um
[23:19:22] <Ashe``> that would be similar to not responding to classic email then, just with an action required?
[23:20:05] <tommorris> Yes - you click on button at top saying 'unsub'
[23:20:24] <Ashe``> and that does what?
[23:21:20] <Ashe``> i mean... lets say I have an email conversation with some guy and he pisses me off. how can i "unsubscribe" from a peer to peer conversation? Oo
[23:21:22] <tommorris> You stop seeing them
[23:21:37] <tommorris> I just added your email subscription - it's becaue you wanted to subscribe with a different email to the one I invited you with
[23:21:45] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-197-25-180.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit (Success)
[23:21:58] <Ashe``> I know, i don't have a google account for the deri.org address
[23:22:02] <tommorris> It's now set so that anyone who gets an invite will be able to join without approval. That's a stupid setting.
[23:22:45] <tommorris> Apparently, both of your emails are signed up.
[23:23:18] <Ashe``> wtf
[23:23:33] <Ashe``> hm
[23:23:41] <Ashe``> just leave it like that
[23:23:42] <Ashe``> it's ok
[23:23:52] <Ashe``> then i can post with both addresses
[23:24:04] <Phae> Your group isn't listed as one of my groups yet
[23:24:42] <Phae> You cannot view the group's content or participate in the group because you are not currently a member. Membership is invite only.
[23:25:04] <tommorris> Try force refresh.
[23:25:26] <Phae> I just pinged you
[23:25:27] <Ashe``> i think it's not possible with google to add another email address as a secondary one to your account
[23:25:30] <Ashe``> or am i mistaken
[23:26:04] <Phae> my gmail accounts are slightly messed up so i have this stupid recursive thing going on just so i can use the address i want
[23:26:30] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) has joined #microformats
[23:26:31] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
[23:32:44] * chimezie (n=chime@adsl-70-238-250-86.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[23:41:42] * woodss (i=w_laptop@modem-2766.buffalo.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
[23:41:42] <jibot> woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT +0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/
[23:47:55] * Wagon (i=opera@200-158-231-100.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #microformats

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