IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-03-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  34. [05:03:07] <mfbot> [[actiontastic-syntax]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/actiontastic-syntax * JonCrosby * (+1580)
  35. [05:04:08] <mfbot> [[picoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=picoformats&diff=0&oldid=14495 * JonCrosby * (+41) Documented Syntaxes -
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  43. [06:03:18] <defunkt> hey cats, anyone feel like chattin about the include pattern?
  44. [06:03:30] <defunkt> i see http://3amproductions.net/ lists themselves as an example in the wild but i'm a bit confused by their use
  45. [06:06:14] <defunkt> basically it looks like they're trying to include a whole vcard into another vcard? should that merge the attributes, or what.
  46. [06:06:17] <defunkt> seems contrary to what's on the wiki
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  48. [06:22:47] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=14496 * JonCrosby * (+18) Exploratory Discussions -
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  69. [08:09:25] <punter> Hi all
  70. [08:09:34] <punter> (ny1 here?)
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  81. [09:20:34] <mfbot> [[User talk:JonCrosby]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:JonCrosby * AndyMabbett * (+72) Welcome
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  120. [13:53:11] <mfbot> [[spell]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/spell * AndyMabbett * (+24)
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  122. [14:02:47] <mfbot> [[spellcheck]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=spellcheck&diff=0&oldid=14497 * AndyMabbett * (+44) picoformat variants
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  126. [14:11:23] <mfbot> [[doi]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/doi * AndyMabbett * (+17)
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  134. [15:04:01] <mfbot> [[orphans]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/orphans * AndyMabbett * (+293)
  135. [15:05:23] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=14498 * AndyMabbett * (+57) How to contribute - orphans
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  138. [15:06:49] <mfbot> [[orphans]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=orphans&diff=0&oldid=14499 * AndyMabbett * (+10) isbn
  139. [15:07:45] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  140. [15:08:45] <mfbot> [[orphans]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=orphans&diff=0&oldid=14500 * AndyMabbett * (+24) footnotes-examples
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  147. [15:30:36] <mfbot> [[orphan]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/orphan * AndyMabbett * (+21)
  148. [15:31:27] <mfbot> [[orphans]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=orphans&diff=0&oldid=14501 * AndyMabbett * (-25) -1
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  150. [15:38:54] <mfbot> [[genealogy-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/genealogy-brainstorming * AndyMabbett * (+535) words repreentiong gender in genealogy
  151. [15:39:35] <mfbot> [[genealogy-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=14502 * AndyMabbett * (+0) fixes
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  153. [15:41:51] <mfbot> [[genealogy-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-formats&diff=0&oldid=14503 * AndyMabbett * (+60) See also
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  156. [15:42:57] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=14504 * AndyMabbett * (+39) Suggestions for New Properties - see also
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  159. [15:44:28] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=14505 * AndyMabbett * (+49) geo-elevation-examples
  160. [15:46:29] <mfbot> [[genealogy-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=14506 * AndyMabbett * (+68) Gender - more
  161. [15:47:15] <mfbot> [[genealogy-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=14507 * AndyMabbett * (+5) Male - ...
  162. [15:47:26] <mfbot> [[genealogy-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=14508 * AndyMabbett * (+4) Female - ...
  163. [15:48:07] <mfbot> [[genealogy-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=14509 * AndyMabbett * (+7) Issue -
  164. [15:48:07] <mkaply> interesting comment from dogster:"
  165. [15:48:12] <mkaply> The one issue I have is that ‘label’ is a common class name we use on our site for 3 years now. It would be annoying to change. I’m going to to have to go look for the way to indicate a certain class should NOT be considered part of the hCard.
  166. [15:48:18] <mfbot> [[genealogy-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=14510 * AndyMabbett * (-1) Issue -
  167. [15:49:19] <mkaply> label was a pretty bad choice (obviously no choice since it was copying vcard)
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  171. [15:52:07] <mkaply> If I supported <del>, would that solve that problem?
  172. [15:52:17] <tantek_> mkaply - the generic class names are scoped within the specific class names like "vcard"
  173. [15:52:22] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  174. [15:52:22] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  175. [15:52:33] <tantek> using contextual selectors, you can avoid such problems
  176. [15:52:44] <tantek> and use generic class names outside of microformats without difficulty
  177. [15:53:00] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/internationalization * AndyMabbett * (+34)
  178. [15:53:05] <mkaply> tantek: not if your vcard happens to need to contain a good bit of content on your page including some old labels
  179. [15:53:15] <tantek> URL to specific example?
  180. [15:53:20] <mkaply> http://www.dogster.com/local/TX/Austin/Pet_Friendly_Restaurants/Texas_land_and_cattle_steakhouse-58045
  181. [15:53:29] <mkaply> I'm looking to see if they could have reduced the vcard.
  182. [15:53:33] <mkaply> I think they could have.
  183. [15:53:45] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=14511 * JoeAndrieu * (+15) Petition -
  184. [15:53:50] <mkaply> wait.
  185. [15:53:52] <mkaply> bad example
  186. [15:54:00] <mkaply> http://www.dogster.com/local/TX/Austin/Pet_Friendly_Restaurants/Whole_foods_market-58043
  187. [15:54:12] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=14512 * JoeAndrieu * (+2) Petition -
  188. [15:54:31] <mkaply> yeah. this was a design choice on their part. They made the entire pageContent to vcard
  189. [15:55:08] <mfbot> [[internationalisation]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/internationalisation * AndyMabbett * (+251) framework - about to fetch content
  190. [15:56:32] * bergie (n=bergie@192.100.124.156) Quit ()
  191. [15:57:53] <mfbot> [[internationalisation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalisation&diff=0&oldid=14513 * AndyMabbett * (+60) UTF8
  192. [15:58:25] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=14514 * Tantek * (+386)
  193. [15:59:00] <mfbot> [[internationalisation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalisation&diff=0&oldid=14515 * AndyMabbett * (+142) Issues -
  194. [15:59:07] <mfbot> [[internationalisation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalisation&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+453) internationalisation moved to internationalization
  195. [15:59:33] <mfbot> [[accessibility]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=accessibility&diff=0&oldid=14516 * AndyMabbett * (+27) See also - internationalisation
  196. [15:59:46] <mkaply> Firebug combined with Operator for debugging microformat? wow.
  197. [15:59:57] <mkaply> I really need to write microformat/firebug integration (on my list)
  198. [16:00:08] <mkaply> If Only operator supported DOM Mutation events
  199. [16:00:14] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=14517 * AndyMabbett * (+26) Tools, Test Cases and Additional Research - internationalisation
  200. [16:00:42] <mkaply> you could add microformat classes on the fly.
  201. [16:00:56] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("http://eswat.ca - http://gmachina.com")
  202. [16:01:40] <mfbot> [[naming-conventions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=naming-conventions&diff=0&oldid=14518 * Tantek * (+42) please use US English spelling in English wiki page names as following conventions from other standards organizations (e.g. W3C, IETF)
  203. [16:02:01] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14519 * AndyMabbett * (+102) Issues - mark-up
  204. [16:03:02] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14520 * AndyMabbett * (+63) Issues - genealogy-brainstorming
  205. [16:03:39] <mkaply> tantek: that's just a poorly designed page
  206. [16:04:33] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14521 * Tantek * (+313)
  207. [16:04:43] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("bye")
  208. [16:05:39] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=14522 * Tantek * (+0)
  209. [16:09:36] <tantek> mkaply, in that example (whole foods austin), it would seem that the hCard could be wrapped only around the top part of the page with the actual contact info, notes on hours etc.
  210. [16:09:49] <tantek> thus leaving the existing "label" class outside the hCard
  211. [16:10:10] <mkaply> tantek: yeah. That's what I was thinking. I think they were just trying to be convenient and add it at a top level. Come to find out, the guy was at our panel at SXSW
  212. [16:10:20] <mkaply> even asked a question. We have a dialog going now
  213. [16:10:24] <tantek> Yes, I know Ted quite well ;)
  214. [16:10:46] <tantek> please refer to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring btw
  215. [16:10:54] <tantek> when advising folks how to mark up their hCards
  216. [16:11:03] <tantek> and if they have questions, perhaps add them to the bottom of that page
  217. [16:11:14] <tantek> we need to grow this knowledge base of how to better author hCards
  218. [16:11:27] <tantek> so that such insights/answers don't just disappear in private dialogs
  219. [16:11:29] <tantek> thanks.
  220. [16:11:52] <tantek> BTW - getting a page to validate is always a good first step too: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.dogster.com/local/TX/Austin/Pet_Friendly_Restaurants/Whole_foods_market-58043
  221. [16:12:10] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14523 * AndyMabbett * (+16) Background - readability
  222. [16:14:31] <mfbot> [[genealogy-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=14524 * AndyMabbett * (+32) Issue -
  223. [16:15:47] <mfbot> [[User talk:ChristopheDucamp]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=14525 * AndyMabbett * (+116) advocacy-fr - internationalisation
  224. [16:16:29] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  225. [16:16:58] <mfbot> [[i18n]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/i18n * AndyMabbett * (+34)
  226. [16:18:19] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) has joined #microformats
  227. [16:18:20] <tylerr> tantek: Picking up a copy of John's uf book on the 26th?
  228. [16:18:59] <tantek> you know it!
  229. [16:19:22] <tylerr> Lovely. I adore my "Friends of Ed" collection.
  230. [16:20:35] <mfbot> [[books]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14526 * Tantek * (+85) added PDF appendix link for John Allsopp's book.
  231. [16:22:50] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14527 * AndyMabbett * (+109) FAQ
  232. [16:23:17] <mfbot> [[books]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14528 * Tantek * (+72) sorted by date, grouped by year
  233. [16:25:14] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14529 * Tantek * (-7)
  234. [16:26:27] <pnhChris> mines already preordered at amazon ;)
  235. [16:27:08] <pnhChris> i need to remember to write an hreview of it though
  236. [16:28:00] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14530 * AndyMabbett * (+211) Solutions - tel using abbr
  237. [16:28:14] <tantek> pnhChris - could you add the amazon link for the book to the "books" page on the wiki for others' convenience?
  238. [16:28:21] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14531 * AndyMabbett * (+2) Solutions - fmt
  239. [16:28:37] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14532 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Solutions - fmt
  240. [16:29:22] <pnhChris> sure
  241. [16:29:48] <pnhChris> there a books page?
  242. [16:30:30] <pnhChris> so there is.. odd that its not in the getting started main page content [or anywhere there]
  243. [16:30:35] <pnhChris> will deal with that too
  244. [16:31:01] * dydimust` (n=tk@192.231.160.6) has joined #microformats
  245. [16:31:15] <pnhChris> oh.. the books page already links to the book sources page
  246. [16:31:38] <pnhChris> http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=1590598148
  247. [16:32:43] * mkaply is bummed - barnes and noble won't have it - that's where I get my IBM discount :)
  248. [16:32:45] * briansuda (n=briansud@fsd02.rhi.hi.is) Quit ()
  249. [16:35:05] * dydimust` (n=tk@192.231.160.6) Quit (Client Quit)
  250. [16:35:38] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=14533 * ChrisCasciano * (+11) Getting Started -
  251. [16:37:08] <mkaply> microformats aren't supposed to be in the <head> tag, right?
  252. [16:37:23] * bear__ is now known as bear
  253. [16:37:35] * dydimustk (n=tk@192.231.160.6) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  254. [16:39:54] <pnhChris> i can't see what they would be doing there.. but is it 'wrong' or 'illegal'... hmm
  255. [16:40:59] <mfbot> [[Template:welcome]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:welcome&diff=0&oldid=14534 * AndyMabbett * (+11) books
  256. [16:41:56] <pnhChris> <html class="vcard"><head><title class="fn org">Try Me Corp.</.... I'd have to check DTDs to see if that's legit in [x]html
  257. [16:42:43] <pnhChris> [class on <title> that is]
  258. [16:47:04] <pnhChris> mkaply: was there a context / particular web page for that question? or just thinking out loud/working on apps?
  259. [16:47:39] <mkaply> pnhChris: I'm working on DOM Mutation events. I'm wondering if I can just add the DOMNode listeners to the <body> tag
  260. [16:49:48] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
  261. [16:49:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o bewest
  262. [16:49:49] * Charl (n=charlvn@196.21.192.15) Quit ()
  263. [16:50:08] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  264. [16:53:06] <mfbot> [[books]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14535 * AndyMabbett * (+4) 2007 - flag as PDF
  265. [16:59:05] <mkaply> Anyone know of a page that uses ajax to dynamically modify a microformat?
  266. [16:59:17] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-242.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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  283. [17:44:59] <mkaply> dumb question about include patterns. In Operator I don't check to see if the node you are including is part of another microformat.
  284. [17:45:12] <mkaply> And now that I am looking at a "real world page", I'm not sure it would need to be in another microformat
  285. [17:45:13] <kingryan_> that's fine
  286. [17:45:16] * kingryan_ is now known as kingryan
  287. [17:45:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  288. [17:45:35] <mkaply> There seem to be places where it would be great to have the fn outside of the vcard and use include to bring it in (like this dogster page)
  289. [17:45:58] <defunkt> oh good, i have an include pattern questions too
  290. [17:46:03] <defunkt> this page -- http://3amproductions.net/ -- is an 'example in the wild'
  291. [17:46:18] <defunkt> but it looks like they're trying to include a whole vcard in another vcard? the examples on the wiki seem contrary to that
  292. [17:46:55] <defunkt> id="vcard-3am" class="vcard" is referenced earlier on, within another class="vcard"
  293. [17:48:01] <kingryan> defunkt: you think there's problems with including an entire other hcard?
  294. [17:48:15] <defunkt> no, i just dont see something like that mentioned anywhere on the wiki
  295. [17:48:30] <defunkt> would it merge the attributes from the hcard being referenced into the referencing hcard?
  296. [17:48:37] * mkaply is stunned at how well firebug works now for debugging microformats now that he added DOMAttrModified support to Operator. WOW
  297. [17:49:25] <kingryan> defunkt: it is as if the references hcard is transcluded in place of the include-pattern element
  298. [17:52:29] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=14536 * DrErnie * (+118) Proposal -
  299. [17:52:43] <defunkt> yeah, but does that make sense?
  300. [17:52:55] <defunkt> because then dont you have an hcard nested inside another?
  301. [17:53:00] <kingryan> you tell me :D
  302. [17:53:08] <defunkt> hah, point
  303. [17:53:10] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=14537 * DrErnie * (+3) Petition -
  304. [17:53:31] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=14538 * DrErnie * (+2) Petition -
  305. [17:53:57] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  306. [17:55:33] <mkaply> So with these changes, I can actually use Firebug to interactively change the microformats on a web page, and Operator will update appropriately
  307. [17:56:02] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=14539 * DrErnie * (-1) Petition -
  308. [17:59:48] <kingryan> mkaply: that's awesome
  309. [17:59:56] * kingryan likes firebug
  310. [18:00:17] <kingryan> firebug has replaced almost all the other FF extensions I use for development
  311. [18:05:05] * h3h (n=h3h@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  312. [18:07:13] <bewest> it's pretty handy
  313. [18:07:21] <bewest> the debugger is way too slow for me
  314. [18:07:30] <bewest> it's invaluable for watching XHRs though
  315. [18:09:39] <kingryan> I mostly just use the command line
  316. [18:09:49] <kingryan> and the inspector thing
  317. [18:16:48] <bewest> most of what I use is squarefree's js shell bookmarklet
  318. [18:20:07] <pnhChris> yeah... watching requests is great... i still kinda prefer DOM Inspector for most of the other tasks though [DOM walking, style checking, etc]
  319. [18:21:20] <mkaply> Everyshound should use the AJAX Toolkit Framework for Eclipse :)
  320. [18:21:50] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-d8afc423c77f705f) has joined #microformats
  321. [18:23:12] <pnhChris> aptana?
  322. [18:28:39] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) Quit ()
  323. [18:31:49] <bewest> ugh
  324. [18:31:52] <bewest> I don't like frameworks
  325. [18:35:39] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  326. [18:37:19] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  327. [18:56:21] <KevinMarks> http://flickr.com/photos/howell/430479951
  328. [19:03:16] * epeus (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-33aa6318798d9a44) has joined #microformats
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  331. [19:09:37] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  332. [19:10:51] <mfbot> [[books]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14540 * AndyMabbett * (+14) add publcation date
  333. [19:11:17] <mfbot> [[books]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14541 * AndyMabbett * (+5) 2007 - moer sepcific link text
  334. [19:12:53] <mfbot> [[books]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14542 * AndyMabbett * (+55) link, ISBN-13
  335. [19:13:29] <mfbot> [[books]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14543 * AndyMabbett * (+3) ISBN-13
  336. [19:14:01] <mfbot> [[books]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14544 * AndyMabbett * (+0) ISBN-13
  337. [19:14:31] <mfbot> [[books]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14545 * AndyMabbett * (+0) ISBN-13
  338. [19:15:27] <mfbot> [[books]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14546 * AndyMabbett * (+0) ISBN-13
  339. [19:16:13] <mfbot> [[books]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=14547 * AndyMabbett * (+0) isbn-13
  340. [19:16:55] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.10/0000000000]")
  341. [19:18:26] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-d8afc423c77f705f) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  342. [19:18:42] <mfbot> [[orphans]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=orphans&diff=0&oldid=14548 * AndyMabbett * (+58) history-of-microformats
  343. [19:19:28] <mfbot> [[orphans]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=orphans&diff=0&oldid=14549 * AndyMabbett * (+22) history-examples
  344. [19:22:51] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  346. [19:27:29] <mkaply> pnhChris: aptana is using the stuff we (IBM) created to do fancy AJAx debugging and stuff
  347. [19:29:01] <pnhChris> yes..... i just was asking if that's what you were referring to.. or something else
  348. [19:29:50] <mkaply> pnhChris: yeah. I was referring to the ATF piece. We're talking about adding microformats debugging into as well.
  349. [19:29:53] <pnhChris> [not an eclipse user... like textmate... and tend to turn to browser based tools for a lot of ajax and page layout debugging]
  350. [19:30:08] <mkaply> pnhChris: most people do. Hard to get them to change :) :)
  351. [19:30:12] * mkaply doesn't use eclipse either
  352. [19:30:21] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  353. [19:30:28] <mkaply> everyone else on the team does
  354. [19:30:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
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  359. [19:38:20] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=14550 * DrErnie * (+0) Petition -
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  373. [20:37:19] * mkaply feels weird leaving xFolk as a "built in" microformat in Operator, but it has a lot of good actions.
  374. [20:37:23] <mkaply> Is it getting good uptake?
  375. [20:37:43] <mkaply> hAtom, hReview, and hResume are moving to "installable microformats" for now.
  376. [20:38:55] <factoryjoe> mkaply: sorry i missed you @ sxsw
  377. [20:39:24] <mkaply> I missed lots of people. Didn't spend enough time at the parties :)
  378. [20:40:02] <factoryjoe> nope!
  379. [20:40:24] <cgriego> you can never spend enough time at the parties
  380. [20:41:23] * tylerr hopes a party comes to Seattle soon.
  381. [20:41:40] <tylerr> Convention rather... with parties. :)
  382. [20:43:09] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-6c317a0a2b9f1588) has joined #microformats
  383. [20:43:18] <mkaply> since I live in Austin, it was hard to justify parties instead of kids
  384. [20:43:28] <mkaply> actually leander, so I had a 45 min drive at night
  385. [20:43:44] <mkaply> I tried to tell my wife "think of it as a business trip where I happen to sleep at home"
  386. [20:43:48] <mkaply> but she didn't buy it :)
  387. [20:44:17] <cgriego> I'm guessing not sleeping at home wouldn't have gone over any better.
  388. [20:47:23] <ianloic> mkaply, if you're 45mins away you should have just got a hotel room
  389. [20:47:41] <tylerr> More ladies need to get involved in these things so we can marry them and bring them to the conferences. :)
  390. [20:47:44] <ianloic> mkaply, I'm sure your wife would have understoon... :)
  391. [20:48:08] <Phae> heh
  392. [20:48:49] <tylerr> Ah hello Phae. :)
  393. [20:48:52] <Phae> hello
  394. [20:49:18] <tylerr> I've gone and got myself invited to the HTML WG. Now I need to figure out what I can do to help.
  395. [20:49:38] <AGraf``> welcome to the group tylerr
  396. [20:49:48] <tylerr> Thanks AGraf`` :)
  397. [20:50:05] <tylerr> How closely is the uf crew working with the W3C, if at all?
  398. [20:50:23] <Phae> i'm not really sure how we'd work with the W3C - it's never been an intention or goal
  399. [20:50:29] <Phae> it's being mentioned a lot in relation to GRDDL though
  400. [20:51:47] <tylerr> Ah right then. I need to study up on HTML5 a bit more and see if there are any overlaps and such.
  401. [20:54:07] <cgriego> isn't the hCard profile hosted on w3.org?
  402. [20:55:22] <Phae> http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard ?
  403. [21:07:00] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=14551 * DrErnie * (+9) Proposal -
  404. [21:11:49] * edsu (n=esummers@208.68.173.106) Quit ("bleh")
  405. [21:17:17] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  406. [21:25:09] * dydimustk (n=tk@192.231.160.6) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  407. [21:35:21] <kingryan> tylerr: there is some overlap between µf community and whatwg/html-wg
  408. [21:35:32] <kingryan> cgriego: yes, it's hosted there (for now)
  409. [21:36:32] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-206-125-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  412. [21:49:42] * ChanServ sets mode +o bewest
  413. [21:50:42] <bewest> pinging tantek
  414. [21:52:32] <tantek> greetings
  415. [21:52:59] <bewest> salutations
  416. [21:55:53] <bewest> wondering about the moderation stuff :/
  417. [21:56:32] * bergie (n=bergie@a88-115-113-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Quit ()
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  420. [21:58:48] * Faye is now known as Phae
  421. [21:58:54] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
  422. [22:01:04] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-efe7233cd28cc646) Quit ("Leaving")
  423. [22:04:38] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  424. [22:05:49] <tylerr> kingryan: I was wondering about that. What have you found so far that overlaps?
  425. [22:07:40] <kingryan> it's the community that overlaps
  426. [22:08:23] <tylerr> Ah right, I was just wondering if there were any overlapping development concerns.
  427. [22:08:40] <kingryan> the only one I can think of is profiles
  428. [22:11:15] <bewest> tantek: the discussions in #html-wg have given me a new appreciation for our intolerance of hypothetical discussion!
  429. [22:12:06] <tantek> bewest, that is good to hear. i have about 9 years of experience now with such theoretical discussions having been on w3c mailing lists (both public and member-only) since 1998.
  430. [22:13:02] <AGraf``> i have a dislike for those discussions too
  431. [22:13:19] <AGraf``> both w3c and deri mailinglists and IRC are full of them
  432. [22:14:12] <kingryan> I hope to keep html-wg somewhat sane in that regard. I think DanC might wish the same.
  433. [22:14:26] <AGraf``> that's good, you have my full support
  434. [22:14:51] <AGraf``> i think there are a few microformats people in that group who will agree
  435. [22:15:09] * Phae agrees
  436. [22:15:37] <Phae> oh, wait. i thought we were talking about html5
  437. [22:15:49] <AGraf``> um
  438. [22:15:55] <Phae> whatwg list
  439. [22:16:06] <Phae> i find it goes off on long drawn out conversations too often to keep up
  440. [22:16:06] <AGraf``> i thought that too
  441. [22:16:10] <bewest> whatwg isn't bad
  442. [22:16:12] <AGraf``> w3c list
  443. [22:16:22] <Phae> whatwg isn't a w3c list
  444. [22:16:38] <bewest> the conversations go, but it doesn't consume all the energy for real work
  445. [22:16:41] <bewest> whatwg is remarkably productive
  446. [22:16:53] <Phae> yeah, i look out for specific subjects of interest
  447. [22:17:02] <Phae> but i never have much to add. i'm purely a voyeur
  448. [22:17:20] <bewest> I thought they were crazy for discussing <video> at first
  449. [22:17:38] <Phae> i still have a few unread on that subject
  450. [22:17:46] <bewest> yeah, I gave up
  451. [22:17:58] <bewest> no need to read everything
  452. [22:18:01] <Phae> yeah
  453. [22:18:03] <kingryan> bewest: <video> seems reasonable to me
  454. [22:18:07] <bewest> there is a lot of chatter
  455. [22:18:11] <kingryan> though I'm mostly ignoring the conversation
  456. [22:18:15] <bewest> yeah, the more I read, the more reasonable it became
  457. [22:18:40] <kingryan> and the motivation comes from real-world implementor experience, which I have to respect on some level
  458. [22:18:44] <bewest> however, the stuff that comes up in the #html-wg is exorbital
  459. [22:21:09] <AGraf``> bewest: like for example <xmldoc>? Oo
  460. [22:21:39] <bewest> no, like somehow expecting "mom and pop" to author spreadsheets in html for roundtrip serialization of semantics
  461. [22:22:03] <bewest> which, among other things, apparently requires a new kind of declaritive javascript
  462. [22:22:24] <AGraf``> i didn't even read that
  463. [22:22:57] <bewest> that's because no one says it concisely
  464. [22:23:54] <bewest> or starting from scratch to produce deliverables for June, or asking other groups to freeze work
  465. [22:24:34] * codecks (n=Dimitri@119.0-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #microformats
  466. [22:25:09] <AGraf``> i only started to actively read the list 2 days ago
  467. [22:25:21] <AGraf``> 3 even
  468. [22:25:36] <codecks> hello everyone
  469. [22:29:02] <codecks> I just discovered microformats, and have some questions about it. My understanding of microformats is that it is standardized way to organise common information
  470. [22:29:20] <kingryan> welcome codecks
  471. [22:29:22] <kingryan> that's right
  472. [22:29:30] <Phae> hey codecks :)
  473. [22:31:33] <codecks> is it closely related to xml ? I mean, if I want to store information in a microformat I could use XML to store the data and use XSLT to format the output...
  474. [22:32:31] <kingryan> codecks: microformats are built on top of html, though you could easily use the same vocabulary in xml (and probably should :D)
  475. [22:35:32] <codecks> ok thanks, but when on speaks of microformat we have to think (for example) <div span="vcard">...</div>
  476. [22:35:39] <codecks> *on=one
  477. [22:36:00] <AGraf``> <div class="" but otherwise, yes
  478. [22:36:22] <codecks> :) ep sorry, it's late over here
  479. [22:36:43] <AGraf``> i know ;>
  480. [22:36:49] <AGraf``> i'm "over there" too
  481. [22:37:32] <codecks> You're from belgium ?
  482. [22:37:52] <AGraf``> not exactly but not that far away... Austria
  483. [22:38:03] <Phae> the examples are done in HTML because that's what microformats are designed for, as most people are publishing in html
  484. [22:38:11] <Phae> and we want it to be as easy as possible for those people
  485. [22:38:31] <Phae> if you're smart enough to do the same with xml - go for it :)
  486. [22:38:31] <pnhChris> don't get hung up on the use of div or span... they are often used as generic examples, but for your own content consider the most apprite elements for the content... microformats see all of <div class="vcard"> <li class="vcard"> <p class="vcard">, <body class ="vcard" all the same way
  487. [22:38:41] <Phae> oh yeah, that too
  488. [22:38:52] <AGraf``> also any external marked up content would validate the DRY principle
  489. [22:39:04] <codecks> k,
  490. [22:39:11] <AGraf``> like for example publishing your contact details on both your website and an external RDF file
  491. [22:39:26] <pnhChris> why would you do that :P
  492. [22:39:30] <Phae> heh
  493. [22:39:44] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14552 * AndyMabbett * (-8) Solutions - no tel in adr!
  494. [22:40:39] <defunkt> would it be silly to show an example of an hCard on microformats.org somewhere very obvious?
  495. [22:40:52] <defunkt> like how ruby-lang.org shows an example right away
  496. [22:41:06] <pnhChris> there are a few 'right away' places :P
  497. [22:41:09] <codecks> so, it is about the items and not the semantics ?
  498. [22:41:12] <Phae> nono
  499. [22:41:16] <Phae> it's all about the semantics
  500. [22:41:52] <Phae> microformats, very simply, are about adding extra semantic information to your data
  501. [22:42:08] <Phae> and the method just happens to also make it easy for people to pick up that data and do stuff with it
  502. [22:42:21] <pnhChris> right.. think of it as overlaying more meaning over your existing sematic markup
  503. [22:42:47] <AGraf``> pnhChris: a lot of people to
  504. [22:42:52] <AGraf``> re [23:39:27] <pnhChris> why would you do that :P
  505. [22:42:57] <AGraf``> http://www.andilinks.com/info.txt
  506. [22:42:59] <AGraf``> not rdf
  507. [22:43:04] <AGraf``> but still redundant
  508. [22:43:04] <kingryan> both the method and meanings are important
  509. [22:43:05] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14553 * AndyMabbett * (+16) Internationalization - typo, embolden
  510. [22:44:11] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14554 * AndyMabbett * (+47) Solutions - ref for satndard
  511. [22:44:47] <defunkt> pnhChris: which 'right away' places do ya mean
  512. [22:45:22] <mfbot> [[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=14555 * AndyMabbett * (+34) Q: ''How do microformats breach language barriers? - see also
  513. [22:48:48] <mfbot> [[faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=14556 * AndyMabbett * (-46) Q: ''How do I validate my microformated content?'' - punctuate and simplify langauge
  514. [22:49:54] <mfbot> [[faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=14557 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Q: ''How do microformats breach language barriers? - fix link
  515. [22:50:13] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  516. [22:51:27] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) has joined #microformats
  517. [22:52:44] <codecks> ok,I think I get the point
  518. [22:53:54] * jibot (n=jibot@64.159.77.114) has joined #microformats
  519. [22:54:35] <mfbot> [[faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=14558 * AndyMabbett * (-1) Q: ''How do I validate my microformated content?'' - fix
  520. [22:54:38] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-154-231-91.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  521. [22:54:38] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  522. [22:59:51] * AGraf`` (n=Ashe@213.47.199.86) Quit ("Quit")
  523. [23:00:23] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  524. [23:00:23] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  525. [23:02:18] <codecks> what does it mean to microformats to be machine readable ?
  526. [23:02:53] * AGraf`` (n=Ashe@213.47.199.86) has joined #microformats
  527. [23:06:32] <kingryan> it means that a browser or spider can understand the content of the microformats (for some value of 'understand')
  528. [23:08:17] * AlexanderGraf (n=Ashe@213.47.199.86) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  529. [23:10:56] <codecks> ok, thanks for the information. I'm starting to get a clearer view already. Bedtime now :-)
  530. [23:11:22] * codecks (n=Dimitri@119.0-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) Quit ("Leaving")
  531. [23:14:19] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-66-239.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
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  533. [23:19:48] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) Quit ()
  534. [23:24:02] * tylerr (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) Quit ("Leaving")
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  536. [23:40:29] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-6c317a0a2b9f1588) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  537. [23:53:14] <mfbot> [[internationalization]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=internationalization&diff=0&oldid=14559 * ChristopheDucamp * (+6) Issues - Télécopieur

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