IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-02-06
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:00:19] <tantek>
hober, i'm not sure that makes any sense
- [00:00:41] <hober>
of course, by taking over an.example.com, the attacker could insert all sorts of markup there instead of redirecting, so yeah
- [00:00:42] <tantek>
if an attacker can take over an.example.com, then the same attacker can specify a rel="me" link in the HTML on an.example.com to another.example.com
- [00:00:44] <hober>
forget it :)
- [00:00:48] <hober>
right
- [00:01:26] <tantek>
InsomniaCity, hCalendar uses same parsing special cases as hCard
- [00:01:32] <tantek>
the exceptions are based on property types
- [00:01:38] <tantek>
such as urls, emails, dates
- [00:01:48] <InsomniaCity>
ok..
- [00:02:08] <InsomniaCity>
I'm only concerned with hcalendar summary
- [00:02:27] <tantek>
hCalendar summary is simple a text string, thus any exceptions that apply for text strings apply to it
- [00:04:32] * BenWard (n=BenWard@87-194-62-78.bethere.co.uk) has left #microformats
- [00:09:54] <tantek>
e.g. <abbr title>, <img alt> etc.
- [00:10:06] <tantek>
see /wiki/hcard-parsing for the full set
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- [02:23:19] <mfbot>
[[group-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=group-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25514 * Singpolyma * (+46) Rel Group Member Proposal -
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- [04:37:30] <mfbot>
[[Talk:res]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:res * DjiAom * (+11788)
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- [04:51:17] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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- [05:48:29] <jibot>
danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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- [06:23:24] <jibot>
bluesmoon is Philip <http://bluesmoon.info> and does things at Yahoo! and likes food and hacking
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- [06:59:48] <mfbot>
[[User:Atamido]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Atamido&diff=0&oldid=25515 * VpzPt5 * (+11881)
- [07:05:14] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) deleted "Talk:res": spam
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- [07:21:52] <jibot>
danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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- [07:36:38] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [08:54:52] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [09:02:15] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [09:03:07] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
- [09:16:56] <mfbot>
[[User:Atamido]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Atamido&diff=0&oldid=25516 * Tantek * (-11881) Reverted edit of VpzPt5, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [09:17:02] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:VpzPt5" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [09:22:09] <mfbot>
[[group-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=group-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25517 * Tantek * (+583) rev deprecated, large groups can provide paginated lists of members.
- [09:33:32] * iand (n=iand@89.192.81.127) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [09:46:15] <mfbot>
[[namespaces-inconsistency-issue]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-inconsistency-issue&diff=0&oldid=25518 * Brian * (+872) Microformats as overlapping trees
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- [09:56:12] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [10:28:38] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
- [10:28:38] <jibot>
julianstahnke is a German front-end dev for Last.fm and lives in London and wants a play button next to every mentioning of an audio track on the internet
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- [10:30:31] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
- [10:42:45] <mfbot>
[[namespaces-inconsistency-issue]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-inconsistency-issue&diff=0&oldid=25519 * AndyMabbett * (+678) Microformats as overlapping trees - problem with overlaps
- [10:44:01] <mfbot>
[[namespaces-inconsistency-issue]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-inconsistency-issue&diff=0&oldid=25520 * AndyMabbett * (+57) Microformats as overlapping trees - fmt
- [10:44:47] <mfbot>
[[namespaces-inconsistency-issue]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-inconsistency-issue&diff=0&oldid=25521 * AndyMabbett * (+2) Microformats as overlapping trees - fmt
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- [10:49:53] <mfbot>
[[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25522 * AndyMabbett * (+417) section-edit buttons broken
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- [10:54:24] <mfbot>
[[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25523 * AndyMabbett * (+591) re-label "complaints" as "issues", to standardise; use template
- [10:56:16] <mfbot>
[[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25524 * AndyMabbett * (+230) Issues - reorder & fmt
- [10:57:37] <mfbot>
[[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25525 * AndyMabbett * (-26) Issues - better URL
- [11:02:38] <mfbot>
[[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25526 * AndyMabbett * (+520) Issues - fmt
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- [11:31:50] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [12:02:52] <mfbot>
[[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25527 * AndyMabbett * (+192) Issues - fmt
- [12:04:28] <mfbot>
[[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25528 * AndyMabbett * (+0) This avoids breaking the HTML, when previewing a section-edit
- [12:05:29] <mfbot>
[[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25529 * AndyMabbett * (-25) How Does This Work? - archive
- [12:06:10] <mfbot>
[[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25530 * AndyMabbett * (+26) see also
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- [12:08:59] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
- [12:11:27] <mfbot>
[[group-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=group-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25531 * AndyMabbett * (+55) clarify scope (i.e. not about a colelction of objects)
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- [13:26:53] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [13:47:11] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [14:16:12] <mfbot>
[[requisition]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/requisition * DarrenBounds * (+10)
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[[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25532 * DarrenBounds * (+57)
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- [14:44:05] <mfbot>
[[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25533 * DarrenBounds * (+839) Introduction -
- [14:47:56] <mfbot>
[[requisition-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/requisition-examples * DarrenBounds * (+4978)
- [14:51:07] <mfbot>
[[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25534 * DarrenBounds * (+127) Introduction -
- [14:52:08] <mfbot>
[[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25535 * DarrenBounds * (-30) Related pages -
- [14:53:19] <mfbot>
[[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25536 * DarrenBounds * (+61) Contributors -
- [14:55:05] <mfbot>
[[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25537 * DarrenBounds * (+76) Related pages -
- [14:57:57] <mfbot>
[[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25538 * DarrenBounds * (-200) Introduction -
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- [15:37:06] <mfbot>
[[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25539 * DarrenBounds * (-8) Introduction -
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[[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25540 * DarrenBounds * (+3) Introduction -
- [15:42:15] <mfbot>
[[requisition-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition-examples&diff=0&oldid=25541 * DarrenBounds * (-587) Best Practices for Example Pages -
- [15:42:26] <mfbot>
[[include-pattern-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-strawman&diff=0&oldid=25542 * TobyInk * (+326) problems with arbitrary id values in class attributes -
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- [15:43:34] <dbounds>
Hello.
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- [15:44:43] <mfbot>
[[requisition-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition-examples&diff=0&oldid=25543 * DarrenBounds * (-13) The Problem -
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- [15:45:01] <jibot>
danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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[[requisition-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition-examples&diff=0&oldid=25544 * DarrenBounds * (-1764) Current Human Behavior on the Web -
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- [16:03:57] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [16:11:20] <ec>
hey y'all
- [16:11:28] <ec>
If I want to do a name in an hcard microformat
- [16:11:40] <ec>
but I want to do a middle initial displayed, while marking up the full middle name
- [16:13:12] <InsomniaCity>
you IRCing from an EC2 box? :P
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- [16:14:01] <ec>
InsomniaCity: yahp!
- [16:14:05] <ec>
<3 ec2
- [16:14:16] <InsomniaCity>
looks a bit expensive for me
- [16:14:21] <ec>
InsomniaCity: /join ##ec2 if you use it, there never seems to be anybody in there for some reason
- [16:14:24] <ec>
oh, ok
- [16:14:26] <ec>
my bad
- [16:14:33] <InsomniaCity>
would be more expensive if I wanted a european one too
- [16:14:42] <InsomniaCity>
as you don't get free transit from european ec2 to s3
- [16:14:45] <ec>
I know
- [16:15:06] <InsomniaCity>
also, am I correct in saying that there isn't a free S3 filesystem driver?
- [16:15:08] <InsomniaCity>
you have to pay for it?
- [16:15:29] <InsomniaCity>
how nuch do you spend on ec2/month?
- [16:16:23] <ec>
huh?
- [16:16:30] <ec>
s3 filesystem, I don't even know of one
- [16:16:36] <ec>
if the only ones are paid, well, that surprises me
- [16:17:44] <ec>
but I've got quite a few instances down for various things... it varies a lot, because I'm spawning and terminating them pretty randomly for various things (EC2's great cause it lets me do that), but at least 200$ish a month for my 2-4 non-specific-project-related instances
- [16:18:11] <InsomniaCity>
ouch, thats expensive..
- [16:18:13] <ec>
money isn't really an issue for me - I can see how EC2 would be impractical for somebody constrained monetarily
- [16:18:29] <ec>
InsomniaCity: well I'm getting 3-4 servers at any given time for that price, so not really
- [16:18:38] <InsomniaCity>
hmm, true
- [16:18:42] <InsomniaCity>
anyway...
- [16:18:55] <InsomniaCity>
you can always put different values for hCard stuff and hide it
- [16:20:01] <InsomniaCity>
so you could <span style="display: none" class="fn">Joe Nathan Bloggs</span><h2>Joe N. Bloggs</h2>
- [16:20:42] <InsomniaCity>
but thats not really following the spirit of it - someone else may have a better way
- [16:21:53] * danieljohnlewis (n=danieljo@client-82-20-60-145.brnt.adsl.virgin.net) Quit ()
- [16:26:49] <ec>
ok, I hereby declare a new psudeo-standard!
- [16:26:54] <ec>
psuedo because it's standard only to me d-:
- [16:26:59] <ec>
I'm going to do it like this:
- [16:27:34] <ec>
http://p.ramaze.net/433
- [16:27:43] <ec>
then just hide the additional-name from display
- [16:27:55] <ec>
and no hcard reader will eat the additional-initial class, so it's safe
- [16:28:01] <ec>
yet it's all still semantically marked up!
- [16:32:08] <mfbot>
[[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25545 * AndyMabbett * (-910) duplicate effort; redirect
- [16:32:15] <mfbot>
[[requisition-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition-examples&diff=0&oldid=25546 * AndyMabbett * (-2589) #REDIRECT:[[job-listing]]
- [16:32:41] <mfbot>
[[requisition-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition-examples&diff=0&oldid=25547 * AndyMabbett * (+9) job-listing-examples
- [16:33:14] <ec>
lmao
- [16:33:17] <ec>
who set up the mediawiki bot
- [16:33:30] <ec>
I just set one of those up a few days ago, though mine spoke to Campfire, not IRC
- [16:33:47] <ec>
that goddamned MediaWiki format... URGH makes me want to punch somebody in the face.
- [16:34:23] <mfbot>
[[User talk:DarrenBounds]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:DarrenBounds * AndyMabbett * (+183) Welcome!
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- [16:35:06] <ec>
mfbot: what else do you do?
- [16:35:09] <ec>
mfbot: help
- [16:35:11] <ec>
!help
- [16:35:13] <ec>
ah fail bot.
- [16:35:18] * fajro (n=fajro@OL104-24.fibertel.com.ar) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [16:36:00] <ec>
On-topic question: in an hcard, what format is the timezone?
- [16:36:07] <InsomniaCity>
ISO 8601
- [16:36:58] <ec>
class="tz">-09</
- [16:37:01] <ec>
so that is correct?
- [16:41:15] <InsomniaCity>
uh, sorry, wasn't paying attention
- [16:41:24] <InsomniaCity>
thought you said datetimes
- [16:41:30] <InsomniaCity>
pass for timezones
- [16:41:42] <InsomniaCity>
there might be a sub-part of 8601... take a look at the vCard spec.
- [16:41:44] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
- [16:42:00] <ec>
<div class="tz">-0900</div>
- [16:42:03] <ec>
I'll go with that for now
- [16:50:15] <mfbot>
[[job-listing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25548 * DarrenBounds * (+426) Job Listing Brainstorming -
- [16:51:32] <mfbot>
[[User:DarrenBounds]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:DarrenBounds * DarrenBounds * (+40)
- [16:52:43] <mfbot>
[[User:DarrenBounds]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DarrenBounds&diff=0&oldid=25549 * DarrenBounds * (+178)
- [16:56:16] <DarrenBounds>
The job-listing brain storming discussions seem to have stalled.
- [16:56:41] <DarrenBounds>
Vurv (the company I represent) is interested in moving it forward.
- [16:59:01] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@74.93.227.249) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [16:59:23] <DarrenBounds>
Would it be at all possible to desolve the current job-listing-brainstorming page in favor of the creation of a new, more complete *-examples, *-formats, *-brainstorming pages in referenced in /process
- [17:01:09] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@74.93.227.249) has joined #microformats
- [17:09:55] <mfbot>
[[User talk:DarrenBounds]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:DarrenBounds&diff=0&oldid=25550 * AndyMabbett * (+6) embolden
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- [17:25:03] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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- [17:46:08] <jibot>
SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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- [17:52:47] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [18:34:40] <mkaply>
Is this really a bug?
- [18:34:40] <mkaply>
http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/en/Firefox_Operator_Extensions#Implicit_typing_for_properties
- [18:34:50] <mkaply>
Any microformats folk have an opinion?
- [18:42:49] <hober>
I don't know enough about haudio to say
- [18:42:55] <hober>
my instinct is that it's not a bug
- [18:43:53] <hober>
http://microformats.org/wiki/haudio#Item
- [18:44:50] <mkaply>
This opaqueness is an interesting problem though, that I need to solve. That is an haudioo album would only get it's fn from an fn that wasn't inside an item
- [18:44:55] <mkaply>
That XPath is going to look very strange
- [18:45:17] <hober>
well, hmm
- [18:45:31] <mkaply>
Right now I just get the first fn.
- [18:45:31] <hober>
that reminds me of the nearest-in-parent stuff in other microformats
- [18:45:49] <mkaply>
you're right. That is a nearest in parent algorithm, isn't it.
- [18:45:52] <mkaply>
I already have one of those
- [18:45:57] <mkaply>
for hAtom I think
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- [18:46:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [18:46:06] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [18:47:19] <hober>
It might help if the haudio spec were updated to explicitly call it that, to bring it in line with other mf specs
- [18:47:42] <mkaply>
Although is that nearest in parent?
- [18:47:51] <mkaply>
BEcause it is for the parent, it's more "closeset descendant"
- [18:48:35] <hober>
well, hmm
- [18:48:40] <hober>
yeah, it's strange
- [18:49:03] <mkaply>
Does XPath return things in descendant order or in document order.
- [18:49:05] * mkaply goes to check that
- [18:49:25] <hober>
imagine #foo.haudio > div > div > p > .fn and #foo.haudio > .item > .fn
- [18:49:55] <hober>
that second .fn is the closest descendant .fn, but we really want the first .fn...
- [18:50:37] <mkaply>
good point. So we really are talking about somehow exclusing descendants from being used in the parsing
- [18:51:25] <hober>
given the bug report, it sounds like you already exclude .haudio sub-trees?
- [18:52:06] <mkaply>
it's not that I exclude them, it's that you have to identify them uniquely. What they want me to do is somehow magically see that an item within an haudio is an haudio too without marking it as such.
- [18:52:30] <hober>
Personally, I think that's a spec bug
- [18:52:43] <hober>
each haudio should be marked as such, even if it's contained in another haudio
- [18:53:05] <mkaply>
I think so as well. This descendant problem is interseting though. And a problem for other microformats (hAtom comes to mind)
- [18:53:17] <mkaply>
you end up with an hatom that gets the titles of it's entries
- [18:53:17] <hober>
e.g., in hcalendar, it's easy to imagine an over-arching .vevent, for a conference, and descendent .vevents for sessions
- [18:54:56] <mkaply>
But I can't figure out how to describe the earlier descendant relationship without referencing the other items. It would be something like "find the first fn" that is not an "fn" in another item
- [18:55:11] <mkaply>
The same problem could happen if you had a vcard in the microformat for the band
- [18:55:19] <mkaply>
We would pick up the fn as the album title
- [18:55:40] <mkaply>
And for vevent/vcards, we want to descend into the sub microformat. The microformats folk call that a feature
- [18:56:27] <mkaply>
So maybe what we are saying is a way to mark a microformat as a containing microformat which means you never get items from child microformats
- [18:56:58] <mkaply>
so hatom would be a containing microformat, so it shouldn't get any of its contents from its hentrys
- [18:57:17] <mkaply>
and haudio is a containing microformat, so it shouldn't get any of its properties from other haudios or vcards
- [18:57:21] <hober>
hmm
- [18:58:07] <hober>
The sugarplums-and-ponies part of me wants this inconsistency between microformats to go away
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- [19:09:03] <mkaply>
So if the children are opaque, what's a single word I can use to describe the parent in this case (for defining my data structure)
- [19:09:29] <hober>
I think I'd rather just describe the children as opaque
- [19:09:53] <hober>
and redefine all mf parsing to do the same thing when encountering opaque children
- [19:10:55] <hober>
Suppose you have an item in an haudio in an hentry.
- [19:11:07] <hober>
(in a bog down in the valley-oh)
- [19:11:31] <hober>
if we say that haudio is opaque, then the hentry can't look inside it for properties, which seems to suck
- [19:11:57] <hober>
I don't want to have things be context-aware...
- [19:11:59] <jibot>
MacDome is a WebKit hacker emeritus emeritus and likes to browse briskly and invisible
- [19:12:01] <mkaply>
But it would seem to me to make more sense to say that a given microformat should only get its properties from non nested microformats
- [19:12:29] <hober>
hmm
- [19:12:30] <mkaply>
the problem with opaqueness on a subitem is that we get into the problem that each time we query any property, we have to check to see if we accidentally got the property from a child.
- [19:12:38] <mkaply>
Makes parsing much slower/complicated
- [19:12:42] <hober>
right
- [19:12:54] <hober>
and then you have the opaque-subitem-in-unknown-microformat
- [19:13:11] <hober>
that's the real reason why I want to stay away from this opaqueness entirely
- [19:13:19] <hober>
and fix haudio
- [19:13:50] <hober>
parsing hatom shouldn't depend on knowing about haudio...
- [19:14:39] <mkaply>
but then how do you solve the problem of using the correct fn in the haudio. Where you define the fn in the microformat shouldn't determine the fn for the parent haudio, should it?
- [19:15:12] <hober>
I think the solution is to require .haudio .item to be .haudio .item.haudio
- [19:15:36] <hober>
and to say, when parsing haudio, it shouldn't pull from sub-haudios themselves
- [19:16:50] <mkaply>
so then in my world (Operator) this would be solved with custom code to query fn in the haudio implementation
- [19:17:46] * levitation[A] (n=levitati@noorus.aklubi.ee) Quit ("IceChat - Keeping PC's cool since 2000")
- [19:18:10] <hober>
hmm
- [19:18:44] <hober>
So, here are some of the things in tension
- [19:19:07] <hober>
1. we want markup authors to be able to add microformat classes etc. to exisitng markup without totally changing it
- [19:19:32] <hober>
2. we want microformat parsers to be able to parse the microformats they know about without interference from microformats they don't know about
- [19:19:46] <hober>
maybe the solution in this case is to constrain #1 a bit more
- [19:20:05] <hober>
and to simply say that .haudio's .fn is the depth-first descendent .fn
- [19:20:38] <hober>
and if you don't want your .item's .fn to be caught, then move the right .fn to a better place in your markup
- [19:21:37] <mkaply>
yeah. I think your deep nesting case is an edge case
- [19:22:10] <hober>
I think "albumn name must come before track name in in-order traversal" isn't that big of a constraint
- [19:23:15] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
- [19:23:15] <hober>
(on authors)
- [19:23:24] <hober>
I mean, it's probably what they want to do anyway
- [19:26:27] <mkaply>
But again, we want people to modify exsiting HTML - so if my blog says "check out the song foo on the album bar"
- [19:26:31] <mkaply>
That's a problem
- [19:26:59] <hober>
yeah, it's a trade-off
- [19:27:20] <hober>
I don't think that's as big of a problem as introducing this notion of opacity to microformats
- [19:27:42] <hober>
becuase it results in parsers potentially needing to know about all microformats in order to parse any of them
- [19:27:43] * danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) Quit ()
- [19:28:48] <hober>
the whole idea of opacity like this seems like a rathole
- [19:29:06] <hober>
the authoring case you just brought up could be addressed by searching for .fn breadth-first
- [19:29:39] <hober>
would uniformly switching to breadth-first searching break any of your other parsing routines?
- [19:30:53] <hober>
(still breaks in my pathological depth case, but I think that can be addressed by authoring behavioral changes)
- [19:31:34] <mkaply>
It would be moer an issue of the fact that my APIs would have to change internally
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- [19:31:43] <mkaply>
because that's not how the DOM APIs are definied todayu
- [19:31:55] <mkaply>
I do a getElementsByClassName. So it would require quite a bit more work
- [19:33:13] <hober>
right
- [19:35:14] <mkaply>
So I would need an algorithm that took a list of elements and reordered them breadth first
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- [19:56:37] <mfbot>
[[job-listing-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25551 * AndyMabbett * (+24) link
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- [19:58:33] * mkaply needs brian suda for an XPath question. he would know
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- [20:01:43] <mfbot>
[[job-listing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25552 * AndyMabbett * (+59) Fields from examples - language
- [20:02:39] <mfbot>
[[job-listing-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25553 * AndyMabbett * (+1) doh!
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- [20:18:08] <jibot>
danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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- [20:22:03] <mkaply>
So in the following HTML
- [20:22:04] <mkaply>
http://pastebin.mozilla.org/322259
- [20:22:14] <mkaply>
what should the various fns of the three vcards be?
- [20:23:08] <hober>
what's a real-world authoring case in which we would encounter hcards nested like this?
- [20:24:18] <BenWard>
hober: That's not the question. Mike writes a parser. So his parser needs to deal with it.
- [20:24:18] <mkaply>
hober: well the real world case is haudio. I was just using vcard because it made a better example. X2V definitely uses the first fn.
- [20:24:43] <mkaply>
I think the "correct" behavior per existing microformat specs is to get the first fn.
- [20:24:54] <hober>
BenWard: I know, but I think it's OK for Operator to do just about anything with such input.
- [20:24:58] <mkaply>
And if a microformats wants a different behaivor (like haudio) that would be a part of its spec. And it would be something like
- [20:25:13] <mkaply>
"In haudio, do not descend into other microformats to get properties)
- [20:25:18] <hober>
BenWard: GIGO and all
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- [20:25:54] <hober>
mkaply: yeah, and it falls on the haudio spec authors to specify "other microformats" in a closed way?
- [20:27:05] <mkaply>
Although, that's a problem as well now that I think about it. What if artist is a vcard. Then haudio would want to go get artist fn.
- [20:27:23] <mkaply>
So maybe it somehow needs to be explicit in the microformat "don't go into nested haudio"
- [20:27:37] <mkaply>
I don't know. This is gettigng ugly. But at least it found a bug in my code
- [20:28:29] <hober>
Yeah, it seems like haudio needs to be revisited by its authors, to address these issues
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- [21:14:51] <mkaply>
Maybe there's a more general unstated rule. When a microformat is nested in itself, it should not inherit properties from its children
- [21:14:55] <mkaply>
That would address all this, wouldn't it?
- [21:15:01] <mkaply>
And easy for a parser to code
- [21:17:43] <hober>
basically, generalizing "when parsing haudio, it shouldn't pull from sub-haudios themselves" to all mfs?
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- [21:30:24] <mfbot>
[[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles&diff=0&oldid=25554 * JasonGarber * (+198) All services with hCard profiles - Added Mixx to list of services with hCard profiles
- [21:31:43] <mkaply>
hober: yes. Because I think it makes sense in practice.
- [21:31:52] <mkaply>
Although the reuse of fn everywhere probably creates other problems.
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- [21:41:56] <hober>
does this affect xoxo?
- [21:42:35] * mkaply has never really paid attention to xoxo.
- [21:42:35] <mkaply>
Goes to look
- [21:44:41] <hober>
consider ul.xoxo>li>ul.xoxo>li
- [21:45:00] <hober>
up to now, labelling subtrees as xoxo has been at worst redundant
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- [21:45:25] <mkaply>
but xoxo is different in that it isn't really a property based microformat
- [21:45:26] <hober>
but if processing the outer xoxo somehow stopped at the inner xoxo, that would be weird.
- [21:45:40] <hober>
sure, ok.
- [21:45:49] <mkaply>
So I don't think this would affect xoxo
- [21:45:57] <hober>
ok
- [21:46:06] <mkaply>
but a really good question.
- [21:46:09] <hober>
that was the only questionable case that came to mind
- [21:46:14] <mkaply>
This could just be a setting on a particular microformat
- [21:46:17] <hober>
otherwise I think that could work
- [21:46:19] <hober>
right
- [21:46:19] <mkaply>
as definied in operator
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- [22:43:22] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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- [22:53:30] <mfbot>
[[geo-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=25555 * ThomasDerflinger * (+226)
- [23:05:12] <mfbot>
[[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=25556 * ThomasDerflinger * (+193)
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- [23:26:09] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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