IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-02-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:19] <tantek> hober, i'm not sure that makes any sense
  2. [00:00:41] <hober> of course, by taking over an.example.com, the attacker could insert all sorts of markup there instead of redirecting, so yeah
  3. [00:00:42] <tantek> if an attacker can take over an.example.com, then the same attacker can specify a rel="me" link in the HTML on an.example.com to another.example.com
  4. [00:00:44] <hober> forget it :)
  5. [00:00:48] <hober> right
  6. [00:01:26] <tantek> InsomniaCity, hCalendar uses same parsing special cases as hCard
  7. [00:01:32] <tantek> the exceptions are based on property types
  8. [00:01:38] <tantek> such as urls, emails, dates
  9. [00:01:48] <InsomniaCity> ok..
  10. [00:02:08] <InsomniaCity> I'm only concerned with hcalendar summary
  11. [00:02:27] <tantek> hCalendar summary is simple a text string, thus any exceptions that apply for text strings apply to it
  12. [00:04:32] * BenWard (n=BenWard@87-194-62-78.bethere.co.uk) has left #microformats
  13. [00:09:54] <tantek> e.g. <abbr title>, <img alt> etc.
  14. [00:10:06] <tantek> see /wiki/hcard-parsing for the full set
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  29. [02:23:19] <mfbot> [[group-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=group-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25514 * Singpolyma * (+46) Rel Group Member Proposal -
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  42. [04:37:30] <mfbot> [[Talk:res]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:res * DjiAom * (+11788)
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  45. [04:51:17] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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  49. [05:48:29] <jibot> danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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  56. [06:23:24] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip <http://bluesmoon.info> and does things at Yahoo! and likes food and hacking
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  58. [06:59:48] <mfbot> [[User:Atamido]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Atamido&diff=0&oldid=25515 * VpzPt5 * (+11881)
  59. [07:05:14] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) deleted "Talk:res": spam
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  61. [07:21:52] <jibot> danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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  63. [07:36:38] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  74. [08:54:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  75. [08:54:52] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  76. [09:02:15] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  77. [09:02:15] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  80. [09:03:07] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  81. [09:16:56] <mfbot> [[User:Atamido]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Atamido&diff=0&oldid=25516 * Tantek * (-11881) Reverted edit of VpzPt5, changed back to last version by Tantek
  82. [09:17:02] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:VpzPt5" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  83. [09:22:09] <mfbot> [[group-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=group-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25517 * Tantek * (+583) rev deprecated, large groups can provide paginated lists of members.
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  85. [09:46:15] <mfbot> [[namespaces-inconsistency-issue]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-inconsistency-issue&diff=0&oldid=25518 * Brian * (+872) Microformats as overlapping trees
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  87. [09:56:12] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  89. [10:28:38] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  90. [10:28:38] <jibot> julianstahnke is a German front-end dev for Last.fm and lives in London and wants a play button next to every mentioning of an audio track on the internet
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  92. [10:30:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o BenWard
  93. [10:30:31] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
  94. [10:42:45] <mfbot> [[namespaces-inconsistency-issue]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-inconsistency-issue&diff=0&oldid=25519 * AndyMabbett * (+678) Microformats as overlapping trees - problem with overlaps
  95. [10:44:01] <mfbot> [[namespaces-inconsistency-issue]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-inconsistency-issue&diff=0&oldid=25520 * AndyMabbett * (+57) Microformats as overlapping trees - fmt
  96. [10:44:47] <mfbot> [[namespaces-inconsistency-issue]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-inconsistency-issue&diff=0&oldid=25521 * AndyMabbett * (+2) Microformats as overlapping trees - fmt
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  99. [10:49:53] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25522 * AndyMabbett * (+417) section-edit buttons broken
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  101. [10:54:24] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25523 * AndyMabbett * (+591) re-label "complaints" as "issues", to standardise; use template
  102. [10:56:16] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25524 * AndyMabbett * (+230) Issues - reorder & fmt
  103. [10:57:37] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25525 * AndyMabbett * (-26) Issues - better URL
  104. [11:02:38] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25526 * AndyMabbett * (+520) Issues - fmt
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  108. [11:31:50] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  110. [12:02:52] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25527 * AndyMabbett * (+192) Issues - fmt
  111. [12:04:28] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25528 * AndyMabbett * (+0) This avoids breaking the HTML, when previewing a section-edit
  112. [12:05:29] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25529 * AndyMabbett * (-25) How Does This Work? - archive
  113. [12:06:10] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=25530 * AndyMabbett * (+26) see also
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  116. [12:08:59] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  117. [12:11:27] <mfbot> [[group-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=group-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25531 * AndyMabbett * (+55) clarify scope (i.e. not about a colelction of objects)
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  128. [13:26:53] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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  137. [13:47:11] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  145. [14:16:12] <mfbot> [[requisition]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/requisition * DarrenBounds * (+10)
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  148. [14:21:38] <mfbot> [[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25532 * DarrenBounds * (+57)
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  150. [14:44:05] <mfbot> [[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25533 * DarrenBounds * (+839) Introduction -
  151. [14:47:56] <mfbot> [[requisition-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/requisition-examples * DarrenBounds * (+4978)
  152. [14:51:07] <mfbot> [[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25534 * DarrenBounds * (+127) Introduction -
  153. [14:52:08] <mfbot> [[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25535 * DarrenBounds * (-30) Related pages -
  154. [14:53:19] <mfbot> [[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25536 * DarrenBounds * (+61) Contributors -
  155. [14:55:05] <mfbot> [[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25537 * DarrenBounds * (+76) Related pages -
  156. [14:57:57] <mfbot> [[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25538 * DarrenBounds * (-200) Introduction -
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  160. [15:37:06] <mfbot> [[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25539 * DarrenBounds * (-8) Introduction -
  161. [15:37:57] <mfbot> [[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25540 * DarrenBounds * (+3) Introduction -
  162. [15:42:15] <mfbot> [[requisition-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition-examples&diff=0&oldid=25541 * DarrenBounds * (-587) Best Practices for Example Pages -
  163. [15:42:26] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-strawman&diff=0&oldid=25542 * TobyInk * (+326) problems with arbitrary id values in class attributes -
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  165. [15:43:34] <dbounds> Hello.
  166. [15:43:40] * dbounds is now known as DarrenBounds
  167. [15:44:43] <mfbot> [[requisition-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition-examples&diff=0&oldid=25543 * DarrenBounds * (-13) The Problem -
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  169. [15:45:01] <jibot> danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
  170. [15:51:24] <mfbot> [[requisition-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition-examples&diff=0&oldid=25544 * DarrenBounds * (-1764) Current Human Behavior on the Web -
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  173. [16:03:57] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  177. [16:11:20] <ec> hey y'all
  178. [16:11:28] <ec> If I want to do a name in an hcard microformat
  179. [16:11:40] <ec> but I want to do a middle initial displayed, while marking up the full middle name
  180. [16:13:12] <InsomniaCity> you IRCing from an EC2 box? :P
  181. [16:13:47] * mefisto (n=mef`@zelli-kojas.lanet.lv) Quit (Connection timed out)
  182. [16:14:01] <ec> InsomniaCity: yahp!
  183. [16:14:05] <ec> <3 ec2
  184. [16:14:16] <InsomniaCity> looks a bit expensive for me
  185. [16:14:21] <ec> InsomniaCity: /join ##ec2 if you use it, there never seems to be anybody in there for some reason
  186. [16:14:24] <ec> oh, ok
  187. [16:14:26] <ec> my bad
  188. [16:14:33] <InsomniaCity> would be more expensive if I wanted a european one too
  189. [16:14:42] <InsomniaCity> as you don't get free transit from european ec2 to s3
  190. [16:14:45] <ec> I know
  191. [16:15:06] <InsomniaCity> also, am I correct in saying that there isn't a free S3 filesystem driver?
  192. [16:15:08] <InsomniaCity> you have to pay for it?
  193. [16:15:29] <InsomniaCity> how nuch do you spend on ec2/month?
  194. [16:16:23] <ec> huh?
  195. [16:16:30] <ec> s3 filesystem, I don't even know of one
  196. [16:16:36] <ec> if the only ones are paid, well, that surprises me
  197. [16:17:44] <ec> but I've got quite a few instances down for various things... it varies a lot, because I'm spawning and terminating them pretty randomly for various things (EC2's great cause it lets me do that), but at least 200$ish a month for my 2-4 non-specific-project-related instances
  198. [16:18:11] <InsomniaCity> ouch, thats expensive..
  199. [16:18:13] <ec> money isn't really an issue for me - I can see how EC2 would be impractical for somebody constrained monetarily
  200. [16:18:29] <ec> InsomniaCity: well I'm getting 3-4 servers at any given time for that price, so not really
  201. [16:18:38] <InsomniaCity> hmm, true
  202. [16:18:42] <InsomniaCity> anyway...
  203. [16:18:55] <InsomniaCity> you can always put different values for hCard stuff and hide it
  204. [16:20:01] <InsomniaCity> so you could <span style="display: none" class="fn">Joe Nathan Bloggs</span><h2>Joe N. Bloggs</h2>
  205. [16:20:42] <InsomniaCity> but thats not really following the spirit of it - someone else may have a better way
  206. [16:21:53] * danieljohnlewis (n=danieljo@client-82-20-60-145.brnt.adsl.virgin.net) Quit ()
  207. [16:26:49] <ec> ok, I hereby declare a new psudeo-standard!
  208. [16:26:54] <ec> psuedo because it's standard only to me d-:
  209. [16:26:59] <ec> I'm going to do it like this:
  210. [16:27:34] <ec> http://p.ramaze.net/433
  211. [16:27:43] <ec> then just hide the additional-name from display
  212. [16:27:55] <ec> and no hcard reader will eat the additional-initial class, so it's safe
  213. [16:28:01] <ec> yet it's all still semantically marked up!
  214. [16:32:08] <mfbot> [[requisition]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition&diff=0&oldid=25545 * AndyMabbett * (-910) duplicate effort; redirect
  215. [16:32:15] <mfbot> [[requisition-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition-examples&diff=0&oldid=25546 * AndyMabbett * (-2589) #REDIRECT:[[job-listing]]
  216. [16:32:41] <mfbot> [[requisition-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requisition-examples&diff=0&oldid=25547 * AndyMabbett * (+9) job-listing-examples
  217. [16:33:14] <ec> lmao
  218. [16:33:17] <ec> who set up the mediawiki bot
  219. [16:33:30] <ec> I just set one of those up a few days ago, though mine spoke to Campfire, not IRC
  220. [16:33:47] <ec> that goddamned MediaWiki format... URGH makes me want to punch somebody in the face.
  221. [16:34:23] <mfbot> [[User talk:DarrenBounds]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:DarrenBounds * AndyMabbett * (+183) Welcome!
  222. [16:34:51] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@74.93.227.249) has joined #microformats
  223. [16:35:06] <ec> mfbot: what else do you do?
  224. [16:35:09] <ec> mfbot: help
  225. [16:35:11] <ec> !help
  226. [16:35:13] <ec> ah fail bot.
  227. [16:35:18] * fajro (n=fajro@OL104-24.fibertel.com.ar) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  228. [16:36:00] <ec> On-topic question: in an hcard, what format is the timezone?
  229. [16:36:07] <InsomniaCity> ISO 8601
  230. [16:36:58] <ec> class="tz">-09</
  231. [16:37:01] <ec> so that is correct?
  232. [16:41:15] <InsomniaCity> uh, sorry, wasn't paying attention
  233. [16:41:24] <InsomniaCity> thought you said datetimes
  234. [16:41:30] <InsomniaCity> pass for timezones
  235. [16:41:42] <InsomniaCity> there might be a sub-part of 8601... take a look at the vCard spec.
  236. [16:41:44] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  237. [16:42:00] <ec> <div class="tz">-0900</div>
  238. [16:42:03] <ec> I'll go with that for now
  239. [16:50:15] <mfbot> [[job-listing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25548 * DarrenBounds * (+426) Job Listing Brainstorming -
  240. [16:51:32] <mfbot> [[User:DarrenBounds]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:DarrenBounds * DarrenBounds * (+40)
  241. [16:52:43] <mfbot> [[User:DarrenBounds]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DarrenBounds&diff=0&oldid=25549 * DarrenBounds * (+178)
  242. [16:56:16] <DarrenBounds> The job-listing brain storming discussions seem to have stalled.
  243. [16:56:41] <DarrenBounds> Vurv (the company I represent) is interested in moving it forward.
  244. [16:59:01] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@74.93.227.249) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  245. [16:59:23] <DarrenBounds> Would it be at all possible to desolve the current job-listing-brainstorming page in favor of the creation of a new, more complete *-examples, *-formats, *-brainstorming pages in referenced in /process
  246. [17:01:09] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@74.93.227.249) has joined #microformats
  247. [17:09:55] <mfbot> [[User talk:DarrenBounds]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:DarrenBounds&diff=0&oldid=25550 * AndyMabbett * (+6) embolden
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  251. [17:25:03] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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  257. [17:46:08] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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  262. [17:52:47] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  272. [18:34:40] <mkaply> Is this really a bug?
  273. [18:34:40] <mkaply> http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/en/Firefox_Operator_Extensions#Implicit_typing_for_properties
  274. [18:34:50] <mkaply> Any microformats folk have an opinion?
  275. [18:42:49] <hober> I don't know enough about haudio to say
  276. [18:42:55] <hober> my instinct is that it's not a bug
  277. [18:43:53] <hober> http://microformats.org/wiki/haudio#Item
  278. [18:44:50] <mkaply> This opaqueness is an interesting problem though, that I need to solve. That is an haudioo album would only get it's fn from an fn that wasn't inside an item
  279. [18:44:55] <mkaply> That XPath is going to look very strange
  280. [18:45:17] <hober> well, hmm
  281. [18:45:31] <mkaply> Right now I just get the first fn.
  282. [18:45:31] <hober> that reminds me of the nearest-in-parent stuff in other microformats
  283. [18:45:49] <mkaply> you're right. That is a nearest in parent algorithm, isn't it.
  284. [18:45:52] <mkaply> I already have one of those
  285. [18:45:57] <mkaply> for hAtom I think
  286. [18:46:06] * kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-219-050.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  287. [18:46:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  288. [18:46:06] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  289. [18:47:19] <hober> It might help if the haudio spec were updated to explicitly call it that, to bring it in line with other mf specs
  290. [18:47:42] <mkaply> Although is that nearest in parent?
  291. [18:47:51] <mkaply> BEcause it is for the parent, it's more "closeset descendant"
  292. [18:48:35] <hober> well, hmm
  293. [18:48:40] <hober> yeah, it's strange
  294. [18:49:03] <mkaply> Does XPath return things in descendant order or in document order.
  295. [18:49:05] * mkaply goes to check that
  296. [18:49:25] <hober> imagine #foo.haudio > div > div > p > .fn and #foo.haudio > .item > .fn
  297. [18:49:55] <hober> that second .fn is the closest descendant .fn, but we really want the first .fn...
  298. [18:50:37] <mkaply> good point. So we really are talking about somehow exclusing descendants from being used in the parsing
  299. [18:51:25] <hober> given the bug report, it sounds like you already exclude .haudio sub-trees?
  300. [18:52:06] <mkaply> it's not that I exclude them, it's that you have to identify them uniquely. What they want me to do is somehow magically see that an item within an haudio is an haudio too without marking it as such.
  301. [18:52:30] <hober> Personally, I think that's a spec bug
  302. [18:52:43] <hober> each haudio should be marked as such, even if it's contained in another haudio
  303. [18:53:05] <mkaply> I think so as well. This descendant problem is interseting though. And a problem for other microformats (hAtom comes to mind)
  304. [18:53:17] <mkaply> you end up with an hatom that gets the titles of it's entries
  305. [18:53:17] <hober> e.g., in hcalendar, it's easy to imagine an over-arching .vevent, for a conference, and descendent .vevents for sessions
  306. [18:54:56] <mkaply> But I can't figure out how to describe the earlier descendant relationship without referencing the other items. It would be something like "find the first fn" that is not an "fn" in another item
  307. [18:55:11] <mkaply> The same problem could happen if you had a vcard in the microformat for the band
  308. [18:55:19] <mkaply> We would pick up the fn as the album title
  309. [18:55:40] <mkaply> And for vevent/vcards, we want to descend into the sub microformat. The microformats folk call that a feature
  310. [18:56:27] <mkaply> So maybe what we are saying is a way to mark a microformat as a containing microformat which means you never get items from child microformats
  311. [18:56:58] <mkaply> so hatom would be a containing microformat, so it shouldn't get any of its contents from its hentrys
  312. [18:57:17] <mkaply> and haudio is a containing microformat, so it shouldn't get any of its properties from other haudios or vcards
  313. [18:57:21] <hober> hmm
  314. [18:58:07] <hober> The sugarplums-and-ponies part of me wants this inconsistency between microformats to go away
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  323. [19:09:03] <mkaply> So if the children are opaque, what's a single word I can use to describe the parent in this case (for defining my data structure)
  324. [19:09:29] <hober> I think I'd rather just describe the children as opaque
  325. [19:09:53] <hober> and redefine all mf parsing to do the same thing when encountering opaque children
  326. [19:10:55] <hober> Suppose you have an item in an haudio in an hentry.
  327. [19:11:07] <hober> (in a bog down in the valley-oh)
  328. [19:11:31] <hober> if we say that haudio is opaque, then the hentry can't look inside it for properties, which seems to suck
  329. [19:11:57] <hober> I don't want to have things be context-aware...
  330. [19:11:59] <jibot> MacDome is a WebKit hacker emeritus emeritus and likes to browse briskly and invisible
  331. [19:12:01] <mkaply> But it would seem to me to make more sense to say that a given microformat should only get its properties from non nested microformats
  332. [19:12:29] <hober> hmm
  333. [19:12:30] <mkaply> the problem with opaqueness on a subitem is that we get into the problem that each time we query any property, we have to check to see if we accidentally got the property from a child.
  334. [19:12:38] <mkaply> Makes parsing much slower/complicated
  335. [19:12:42] <hober> right
  336. [19:12:54] <hober> and then you have the opaque-subitem-in-unknown-microformat
  337. [19:13:11] <hober> that's the real reason why I want to stay away from this opaqueness entirely
  338. [19:13:19] <hober> and fix haudio
  339. [19:13:50] <hober> parsing hatom shouldn't depend on knowing about haudio...
  340. [19:14:39] <mkaply> but then how do you solve the problem of using the correct fn in the haudio. Where you define the fn in the microformat shouldn't determine the fn for the parent haudio, should it?
  341. [19:15:12] <hober> I think the solution is to require .haudio .item to be .haudio .item.haudio
  342. [19:15:36] <hober> and to say, when parsing haudio, it shouldn't pull from sub-haudios themselves
  343. [19:16:50] <mkaply> so then in my world (Operator) this would be solved with custom code to query fn in the haudio implementation
  344. [19:17:46] * levitation[A] (n=levitati@noorus.aklubi.ee) Quit ("IceChat - Keeping PC's cool since 2000")
  345. [19:18:10] <hober> hmm
  346. [19:18:44] <hober> So, here are some of the things in tension
  347. [19:19:07] <hober> 1. we want markup authors to be able to add microformat classes etc. to exisitng markup without totally changing it
  348. [19:19:32] <hober> 2. we want microformat parsers to be able to parse the microformats they know about without interference from microformats they don't know about
  349. [19:19:46] <hober> maybe the solution in this case is to constrain #1 a bit more
  350. [19:20:05] <hober> and to simply say that .haudio's .fn is the depth-first descendent .fn
  351. [19:20:38] <hober> and if you don't want your .item's .fn to be caught, then move the right .fn to a better place in your markup
  352. [19:21:37] <mkaply> yeah. I think your deep nesting case is an edge case
  353. [19:22:10] <hober> I think "albumn name must come before track name in in-order traversal" isn't that big of a constraint
  354. [19:23:15] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  355. [19:23:15] <hober> (on authors)
  356. [19:23:24] <hober> I mean, it's probably what they want to do anyway
  357. [19:26:27] <mkaply> But again, we want people to modify exsiting HTML - so if my blog says "check out the song foo on the album bar"
  358. [19:26:31] <mkaply> That's a problem
  359. [19:26:59] <hober> yeah, it's a trade-off
  360. [19:27:20] <hober> I don't think that's as big of a problem as introducing this notion of opacity to microformats
  361. [19:27:42] <hober> becuase it results in parsers potentially needing to know about all microformats in order to parse any of them
  362. [19:27:43] * danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) Quit ()
  363. [19:28:48] <hober> the whole idea of opacity like this seems like a rathole
  364. [19:29:06] <hober> the authoring case you just brought up could be addressed by searching for .fn breadth-first
  365. [19:29:39] <hober> would uniformly switching to breadth-first searching break any of your other parsing routines?
  366. [19:30:53] <hober> (still breaks in my pathological depth case, but I think that can be addressed by authoring behavioral changes)
  367. [19:31:34] <mkaply> It would be moer an issue of the fact that my APIs would have to change internally
  368. [19:31:40] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  369. [19:31:43] <mkaply> because that's not how the DOM APIs are definied todayu
  370. [19:31:55] <mkaply> I do a getElementsByClassName. So it would require quite a bit more work
  371. [19:33:13] <hober> right
  372. [19:35:14] <mkaply> So I would need an algorithm that took a list of elements and reordered them breadth first
  373. [19:41:34] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) has joined #microformats
  374. [19:56:37] <mfbot> [[job-listing-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25551 * AndyMabbett * (+24) link
  375. [19:57:50] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@71-208-209-220.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  376. [19:58:33] * mkaply needs brian suda for an XPath question. he would know
  377. [19:59:07] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@71-208-209-220.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  378. [20:01:43] <mfbot> [[job-listing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25552 * AndyMabbett * (+59) Fields from examples - language
  379. [20:02:39] <mfbot> [[job-listing-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=25553 * AndyMabbett * (+1) doh!
  380. [20:05:24] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
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  385. [20:18:08] <jibot> danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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  387. [20:22:03] <mkaply> So in the following HTML
  388. [20:22:04] <mkaply> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/322259
  389. [20:22:14] <mkaply> what should the various fns of the three vcards be?
  390. [20:23:08] <hober> what's a real-world authoring case in which we would encounter hcards nested like this?
  391. [20:24:18] <BenWard> hober: That's not the question. Mike writes a parser. So his parser needs to deal with it.
  392. [20:24:18] <mkaply> hober: well the real world case is haudio. I was just using vcard because it made a better example. X2V definitely uses the first fn.
  393. [20:24:43] <mkaply> I think the "correct" behavior per existing microformat specs is to get the first fn.
  394. [20:24:54] <hober> BenWard: I know, but I think it's OK for Operator to do just about anything with such input.
  395. [20:24:58] <mkaply> And if a microformats wants a different behaivor (like haudio) that would be a part of its spec. And it would be something like
  396. [20:25:13] <mkaply> "In haudio, do not descend into other microformats to get properties)
  397. [20:25:18] <hober> BenWard: GIGO and all
  398. [20:25:35] * bengee (n=bengee@ip-62-143-117-183.PH-1311G-BSR64K-02.ish.de) Quit ("Leaving")
  399. [20:25:54] <hober> mkaply: yeah, and it falls on the haudio spec authors to specify "other microformats" in a closed way?
  400. [20:27:05] <mkaply> Although, that's a problem as well now that I think about it. What if artist is a vcard. Then haudio would want to go get artist fn.
  401. [20:27:23] <mkaply> So maybe it somehow needs to be explicit in the microformat "don't go into nested haudio"
  402. [20:27:37] <mkaply> I don't know. This is gettigng ugly. But at least it found a bug in my code
  403. [20:28:29] <hober> Yeah, it seems like haudio needs to be revisited by its authors, to address these issues
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  413. [21:14:51] <mkaply> Maybe there's a more general unstated rule. When a microformat is nested in itself, it should not inherit properties from its children
  414. [21:14:55] <mkaply> That would address all this, wouldn't it?
  415. [21:15:01] <mkaply> And easy for a parser to code
  416. [21:17:43] <hober> basically, generalizing "when parsing haudio, it shouldn't pull from sub-haudios themselves" to all mfs?
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  419. [21:30:24] <mfbot> [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles&diff=0&oldid=25554 * JasonGarber * (+198) All services with hCard profiles - Added Mixx to list of services with hCard profiles
  420. [21:31:43] <mkaply> hober: yes. Because I think it makes sense in practice.
  421. [21:31:52] <mkaply> Although the reuse of fn everywhere probably creates other problems.
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  423. [21:41:56] <hober> does this affect xoxo?
  424. [21:42:35] * mkaply has never really paid attention to xoxo.
  425. [21:42:35] <mkaply> Goes to look
  426. [21:44:41] <hober> consider ul.xoxo>li>ul.xoxo>li
  427. [21:45:00] <hober> up to now, labelling subtrees as xoxo has been at worst redundant
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  429. [21:45:25] <mkaply> but xoxo is different in that it isn't really a property based microformat
  430. [21:45:26] <hober> but if processing the outer xoxo somehow stopped at the inner xoxo, that would be weird.
  431. [21:45:40] <hober> sure, ok.
  432. [21:45:49] <mkaply> So I don't think this would affect xoxo
  433. [21:45:57] <hober> ok
  434. [21:46:06] <mkaply> but a really good question.
  435. [21:46:09] <hober> that was the only questionable case that came to mind
  436. [21:46:14] <mkaply> This could just be a setting on a particular microformat
  437. [21:46:17] <hober> otherwise I think that could work
  438. [21:46:19] <hober> right
  439. [21:46:19] <mkaply> as definied in operator
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  447. [22:43:22] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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  451. [22:53:30] <mfbot> [[geo-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=25555 * ThomasDerflinger * (+226)
  452. [23:05:12] <mfbot> [[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=25556 * ThomasDerflinger * (+193)
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  464. [23:26:09] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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