IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-06-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

[00:00:19] <tantek> tobyink no need to re-examine - the Web has provided us plenty of data. XML+RDF (the dark generic data path) has still failed to take off on the Web, while microformats have succeeded.
[00:00:31] <BenWard> Documentation is ultimately a Good Thing™, so if you're documenting new things (or old, new things) then that's ultimately good too.
[00:00:55] <BenWard> However, I am nervous of enflaming an already uptight state of discussion regarding ABBR and machine data.
[00:01:17] <tantek> the principles are working, and when there are problems/challenges, as with abbr-datetime accessibility, the answer is NOT to ignore principles, but rather to look at the data (real world content publishing behaviors) again.
[00:01:43] <BenWard> I don't want to see a number of well meaning, intelligent people ‘smacked down’ with a new wiki page in response to their attempts to solve a complex issue
[00:02:03] <BenWard> Or, at least, I don't want it to be percievable that way
[00:02:27] <BenWard> Depending on how you intend to document it, that concern may or may not apply
[00:02:38] <tantek> BenWard, unfortunately that's precisely what we had to do in the early days of microformats when were deluged by "well meaning, intelligent" folks that were RDF or XML advocates. Otherwise we would have gotten nothing done, and spent all our time arguing their filibustering.
[00:03:00] <BenWard> No-one is filibustering.
[00:03:07] <tantek> of course not, not intentionally
[00:03:37] <tantek> but by bringing up arguments about principles which specifically call into question those other approaches, the effect is the same
[00:03:50] * dw (n=dw@unaffiliated/dw) Quit ("brb")
[00:04:13] <tantek> and don't forget that well meaning, intelligent RDF/XML folks greatly outnumber those of us that dared to extract semantics from and enhance HTML. we're *still* outnumbered.
[00:05:31] <tantek> so unfortunately it comes down to an issue of time
[00:06:31] <tantek> we just don't have the time to keep re-exploring those alternatives / discussions that violate microformats principles and make progress actually building things. those that want to have such discussions should do so in the communities that welcome them, not here.
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[00:08:12] <tobyink> RDF hasn't failed. Digg is publishing RDFa, various social networks publish FOAF, etc.
[00:08:34] <tantek> tobyink, compared to even RSS, RDF has failed
[00:09:01] <tantek> you're always going to get some random site publishing some random format - that doesn't demonstrate non-failur.
[00:09:18] <BenWard> My impression is that people's perception of datetime in particular doesn't sit clearly on one side or other of the data-hiding principal. I think there's a perception that in the case of ISO dates, it's just a reality that the content a machine needs is not the same as the content a human wants, and so it is an exceptional case of duplication to support publishing and parsing.
[00:09:18] <BenWard> If that perception is fundamentally wrong, particularly the perception that this is an _exceptional_ issue (no-one is asking for hidden data as a generic tool of microformats) then that misperception of this specific problem needs to be addressed. It's not that they don't understand the data-hiding principal, it's that they don't understand why this case still applies to it. If the perception is wrong, it's the understanding of the prob
[00:09:51] <tantek> RDFa has taken *some* (not all) of the principles of microformats, and thus it has seen more success than RDF.
[00:10:26] <tantek> But even then, as Birbeck pointed out in his most recent post, RDFa needs vocabularies in order to really succeed.
[00:10:27] <tobyink> But any success RDFa has is a success for RDF too, as RDFa is simply a serialisation of RDF.
[00:10:39] <tobyink> @BenWard - precisely
[00:11:08] <tobyink> Vocabularies are ten-a-penny if you don't need a central authority to create them.
[00:11:14] <tantek> BenWard, no - that machine-data class thing is precisely asking for "hidden data as a generic tool of microformats"
[00:11:30] <tantek> tobyink - and thus worthless due to babel
[00:11:43] <tantek> when everyone creates their own vocabulary = you have communication FAIL
[00:11:52] <BenWard> It doesn't need to. It could have a rule attached that restricted it to particular properties identified in the machine-data page
[00:11:57] <tantek> and in doing so, you forget why you were bothering to have a format in the first place
[00:12:04] <BenWard> Or just date times if that's the only issue we want to fix right now.
[00:12:14] <tantek> BenWard - but that's the problem. total hammer / fly.
[00:12:20] <tantek> and a nasty hammer at that
[00:12:41] <tantek> so many violations of microformats principles in the machine-data class exploration, it is disgusting
[00:12:46] <tantek> invisible data
[00:12:51] <tantek> not solving a simple problem first
[00:12:52] <tobyink> tantek, if that were true, Dan Brickley would be the only person using FOAF and everyone else would be using their own custom vocabs to describe themselves.
[00:13:00] <tantek> not basing it on the precise set of real world publishing etc.
[00:13:39] <tantek> tobyink - I've talked to Dan about this - he agrees - those communities are very permissive, deliberately so, with people creating their own vocabularies
[00:13:46] <tantek> even FOAF reinvented too much of vCard
[00:14:05] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.112.64.75.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ("A B C ya and I wouldn't want to be ya")
[00:14:22] <BenWard> Regardless, that proposed @class solution *could* be restricted to one problem with a single parsing rule, and so the entire discussion should not be dismissed as a total disregard for a principal of microformats.
[00:14:37] <tantek> you don't get good solutions by going super generic and then tightening it down
[00:14:45] <tantek> you get good solutions by solving a simple, precise problem first
[00:15:03] <tobyink> yes, and there's a vcard vocab too, but the RDF stack includes enough reasoning ability for parsers to be able to determine that foaf:name and vcard:fn are really the same thing
[00:15:04] <BenWard> I think there are two identified problems in circulation at the moment, and the discussions are overlapping
[00:15:19] <tantek> it can be dismissed for ignoring the first two principles
[00:15:20] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/principles
[00:15:57] <tantek> tobyink and all that reasoning and such adds more complexity, fragility, totally unnecessarily
[00:16:02] <tobyink> frankly, for the most part, i agree with the principles - it's just that the current <abbr title="2008-06-25">
[00:16:14] <tantek> * solve a specific problem
[00:16:20] <tantek> * start as simple as possible
[00:16:57] <tantek> the fact that the machine-data in class discussion actually got taken seriously for so long is very sad statement of how familiar (and disciplined) people are about what microformats really are.
[00:17:13] <tobyink> frankly, for the most part, i agree with the principles - it's just that the current <abbr title="2008-06-25">25 june 2008</abbr> pattern already violates those principles (DRY), so why not choose another solution which is no more violating of the principles (i.e. Phae's proposal) but improves accessibility
[00:17:14] <tantek> because if you ignore those principles, then you might as well just go start making up your own tags
[00:17:52] <tantek> tobyink the abbr-date-pattern not only does not have accessibility problems, it actually may *help* accessbility
[00:17:57] <tantek> the problem is only with the compound datetimes
[00:18:09] <tantek> if you actually look at the research done, with test results, you'll see that
[00:18:22] <BenWard> • One problem is including machine parsable datetimes alongside human date formats
[00:18:22] <BenWard> • One problem is microformat's need to have fixed formats (dates, enumerations, etc.) for parsing that have to be included alongside published data.
[00:18:23] <BenWard> Those discussions should be more separate than they are.
[00:18:34] <tobyink> bad example - i meant the full datetime, but didn't want to type out so many digits
[00:18:49] <BenWard> tantek: Where are those research and results published? I for one haven't seen them
[00:19:05] <tobyink> but even with dates only, YYYY-MM-DD is a suboptimal rendering for most people
[00:19:06] <tantek> BenWard, did you not read the WaSP hAccessibillity post all the way thru
[00:19:14] <tantek> tobyink, false
[00:19:19] <BenWard> The old one or the new one?
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[00:19:33] <tantek> YYYY-MM-DD is actually more optimal for more people than any other date format. full stop.
[00:19:48] <tantek> the old one
[00:19:56] <tantek> the violation of DRY is handled by discussing exactly *why* violating DRY is a problem, that of data drift/divergence
[00:20:28] <tantek> which gets much worse as the data is separated in distance or in time
[00:20:38] <tantek> hence why the abbr-pattern is actually not too bad
[00:20:50] <tantek> in comparison to other DRY violations like putting data in the head of a document
[00:21:16] <tobyink> I personally have no problem reading YYYY-MM-DD. Saves me the bother of figuring out if the publication I'm reading might be using that particularly weird date format common in the US. But most people I know would need to do a double-take with YYYY-MM-DD.
[00:21:36] <tantek> "most people I know" is not a valid sampling meethod
[00:21:55] <tantek> sample people worldwide with YYYY-MM-DD vs. any other single date format if you wish.
[00:22:04] <tobyink> If YYYY-MM-DD was the most optimal date format it would be all over print media. But it's nowhere.
[00:22:05] <tantek> we've already had i18n experts from W3C confirm this
[00:22:22] <tantek> print media is not the *world* wide web
[00:22:44] * Hey_neken (n=kaxero@215.Red-213-96-129.staticIP.rima-tde.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[00:22:58] <tobyink> Look at the date format at the bottom of the microformats wiki "This page was last modified..." not YYYY-MM-DD
[00:23:20] <tantek> add it to the /wiki/to-do, I'm sure we can fix it ;)
[00:23:46] <tobyink> MSN helpfully include the date at the top of their home page? in YYYY-MM-DD? nope
[00:23:58] <csarven> What about tantek.com's entry published dates? ;)
[00:24:05] <tantek> regardless, I don't care to re-argue that YYYY-MM-DD is the most accessible/readable argument, it's already been discussed by i18n folks and tested by others too.
[00:24:35] <tantek> fundamentally, I want to see people in this community rejecting approaches that violate the principles
[00:24:59] <tantek> seriously, next time someone wants to introduce a new syntax for generic data, please, stand up and say no, that's not what microformats are about
[00:25:09] <tantek> and just point them here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#microformats_are_not
[00:25:21] <tantek> no more of that kind of crap please. it's a waste of the community's time.
[00:25:47] <tobyink> @csarven - MSN.com has higher readership
[00:27:29] <csarven> tobyink I fully agree with tantek on yyyy-mm-dd being more accessible (or at least neutral approach) world-wide. Was just adding fuel to the fire with tantek's use of "6/13 4:11 PM" when you pointed out microformats wiki's :P
[00:28:07] <tantek> csarven, I have plenty of fixes to do on my own blog as well ;)
[00:28:18] <tobyink> YYYY-MM-DD is certainly the most accessible all-numeric date format in a WWW context.
[00:29:30] <csarven> In some cases, it is more about personal or contextual (type of site) convention then some i81n issue on dates are written for human readers.
[00:29:34] <tobyink> But far less accessible and readble that something like "Wednesday, 25 June 2008" - which is the kind of format publishers actually want to display their dates in in the real world.
[00:31:35] <BenWard> OK, I've got the day off tomorrow so I'm going to try and do some mf work in the morning. Need to get some sleep now though. I'll try to remember to check the IRC log to see where this chat finishes up.
[00:31:48] <BenWard> Good night.
[00:32:02] <tobyink> night
[00:32:21] <csarven> I agree with that on some level but I think it is more contextual then anything. On a "techy" site 2008-06-25 is probably more practical (and usable) but on a "print" oriented web site, "Wednesday, 25 June 2008" is probably better. It is about usability at some point IMO
[00:32:33] <tobyink> I suppose it's past my bedtime too really.
[00:32:48] <tobyink> Usability ~= accessibility
[00:33:10] <tobyink> In fact, accessibility is a subset of usability.
[00:33:15] <csarven> I'm aware but not everyone writing down a date is thinking of those issues separately and weighing each out and picking one.
[00:34:19] <csarven> I would venture to say that it is the other way around (and entirely depends on how we define them) because if something is not "accessible" then it is certainly not "usable"
[00:34:46] <csarven> An object can be usable but may not be very accessible
[00:35:00] <tobyink> What I mean is that accessibility is just usability for a particular subset of society.
[00:35:47] * BenWard (n=BenWard@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) Quit ()
[00:36:23] <tobyink> Accessibility is making sure a certain set of people can use it; usability is making sure that everyone can.
[00:36:57] <tobyink> anyway, i'm off too
[00:37:00] <tobyink> bye
[00:37:04] <csarven> Later
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[00:43:52] <tantek> 2008-06-24 is more readable by more humans than any other date format. This makes it the most human readable date format where you take human to mean all humans, not just humans that speak the same language or live in the same country as you do.
[00:44:19] <tantek> And that's the point. YYYY-MM-DD *is* human readable. It's not a machine format. It's a human format that happens to also be machine readable.
[00:45:13] <tantek> That being said, existing content publishing practices clearly use other date formats, and attempting to change all those is not only futile, it's not the focus of microformats.
[00:46:13] <tantek> So the goal is, allowing content publishers to keep publishing the date in whatever local-specific or crazy way they want to, while providing a mechanism for alongside publishing a more broadly accessible version of that data.
[00:46:36] <tantek> It just so happens that publishers often abbreviate date (and time) information, and thus, the abbr element provides the perfect semantic solution.
[00:47:22] <tantek> Thus <abbr title="2008-06-24">6/24</abbr> simultaneously provides both a precise broadly human readable date, and a local specific slightly imprecise date.
[00:47:35] <tantek> Thus the abbr-date-pattern works
[00:47:39] <tantek> Similarly for times
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[00:48:38] <tantek> the point is this isn't machine vs. human. this is broadly human readable vs. local-specific stylistically human preferred
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[00:48:44] <tantek> both are human
[00:50:44] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/date-design-pattern
[00:51:07] <ashaszin> In latin countries the (YYYY-)MM-DD pattern is reversed in DD-MM(-YYYY)
[00:51:49] <tantek> ashaszin, yes, you can find most combinations of reordering of Y, M, D (except I don't know of any that put the Y in the middle)
[00:52:02] <ashaszin> :)
[00:52:04] <tantek> but none of them are as broadly human readable as YYYY-MM-DD
[00:52:16] <tantek> that's the world-wide-winner ;)
[00:53:41] <ashaszin> yes, I understand it, especially with datetime-design-pattern in view
[00:54:24] <ashaszin> years flowing to seconds
[00:56:38] <tantek> in fact, YYYY-MM-DD is *more* human than any other specific date format
[01:01:57] <tantek> as far as time goes, I don't know if 18:30 is more readable by more people than 6:30pm
[01:02:32] <tantek> I would guess that it is, but I don't have any data to back that up, nor have I asked any i18n experts on their opinion.
[01:03:06] <tantek> however, certainly 18:30 is *a* human readable format, even if we don't know if it is the *most* human readable format, and thus the abbr-time-pattern is good too
[01:03:46] <ashaszin> datetime pattern could be seen as a context becoming more precise as being read (for left to right readers)
[01:04:12] <tantek> it could, however the combination of the two, and the insertion of the T in the middle appears to be just enough to make it not really readable, and not really understandable when spoken
[01:04:27] <tantek> at least that's what the current data tells us
[01:08:45] <tantek> off to the microformats dinner meetup!
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[01:34:29] <mfbot> [[User:Cgriego]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Cgriego&diff=0&oldid=27449 * Cgriego * (+25)
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[02:43:53] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[04:52:33] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[06:19:27] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
[06:19:27] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[06:21:33] * rmarkwhite (i=rmarkwhi@gateway/tor/x-74462f73c587cd09) has joined #microformats
[06:21:33] <jibot> rmarkwhite is Robert Mark White
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[06:24:00] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip <http://bluesmoon.info> & improves performance at Yahoo! & likes food & hacking & lives in the valley
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[06:58:16] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[07:11:58] <mfbot> [[events/2008-06-24-weekly-meetup-dinner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-06-24-weekly-meetup-dinner&diff=0&oldid=27450 * Tantek * (+152) add photo
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[07:51:46] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer at http://edgeofmyseat.com
[08:00:35] <mfbot> [[learning-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=learning-formats&diff=0&oldid=27451 * Birkirb * (-12) example code -
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[08:03:30] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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[08:22:42] <mfbot> [[User:AshSearle]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:AshSearle * AshSearle * (+90)
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[08:42:49] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27452 * AshSearle * (+376) Machine-data in class -
[08:51:41] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27453 * TobyInk * (+1017) discussion - There aren't enough words containing "uu" in the English language. We should have more.
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[10:02:06] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27454 * AshSearle * (+694) Machine-data in class -
[10:03:37] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27455 * AshSearle * (+4) Argument against Tantek's "inviolable principles"
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[10:38:24] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27456 * Dracos * (+327) Machine-data in class -
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[10:43:35] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27457 * Dracos * (+276) issues -
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[11:52:40] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27458 * BenWard * (+815) issues - Not all ABBR complaints are resolved by breaking dates and times into two separate pieces
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[12:05:57] <mfbot> [[User:Dotjay]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Dotjay * Dotjay * (+94) Added description
[12:07:33] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=27459 * Dotjay * (+35) Added dotjay
[12:11:24] <mfbot> [[events/2008-06-24-weekly-meetup-dinner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-06-24-weekly-meetup-dinner&diff=0&oldid=27460 * Tantek * (+620) added more attendees
[12:17:21] <mfbot> [[machine-data]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=machine-data&diff=0&oldid=27461 * BenWard * (+1805) Problems - Attempted clarifications and responses to the mf principals issue,
[12:18:52] <mfbot> [[machine-data]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=machine-data&diff=0&oldid=27462 * BenWard * (-4) Problems - Fixing misuse of textile syntax on the wiki. I hate mediawiki sometimes.
[12:21:43] <mfbot> [[machine-data]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=machine-data&diff=0&oldid=27463 * BenWard * (+4) Problems - More textile. Sorry.
[12:25:34] <mfbot> [[events/2008-06-24-weekly-meetup-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-06-24-weekly-meetup-dinner&diff=0&oldid=27464 * Tantek * (+26) link Mark Pilgrim
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[12:39:14] <ashaszin> don't like the xfolk example very much...
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[12:40:34] <ashaszin> I'll propose a more minimal example in addition to the "del.icio.us" example
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[13:51:20] <mfbot> [[machine-data]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=machine-data&diff=0&oldid=27465 * TobyInk * (+85) Problems - re: Tidy at both ends
[13:54:06] <mfbot> [[machine-data]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=machine-data&diff=0&oldid=27466 * TobyInk * (+167) Other Proposals -
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[14:27:24] <mfbot> [[xfolk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk&diff=0&oldid=27467 * Ashaszin * (+779) Example -
[14:37:20] <mfbot> [[xfolk-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-fr&diff=0&oldid=27468 * Ashaszin * (+874) Exemple -
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[16:59:49] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples&diff=0&oldid=27469 * FirefoxRocks * (+4) ICQ -
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[17:10:24] <ashaszin> woah, what a split
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[17:18:30] <BobJonkman> Tantek, could the topic for this channel include a link to http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/ ?
[17:19:20] <tantek> Bob, that's one click away from the first link - /wiki/irc - that's good enough, and better to keep a shorter topic.
[17:20:22] <BobJonkman> OK
[17:21:05] <BobJonkman> I've been finding myself going back to catch up a fair bit in the last two days
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[17:47:24] <tantek> myself as well, I've gotten used to the two quick clicks
[17:47:46] <tantek> ultimately I'd like to see us archive the IRC logs at microformats.org
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[17:56:07] <mfbot> [[stable-pages]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=stable-pages&diff=0&oldid=27470 * CpsZme * (+12750)
[17:57:18] <mfbot> [[stable-pages]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=stable-pages&diff=0&oldid=27471 * Tantek * (-12750) Reverted edit of CpsZme, changed back to last version by RyanKing
[17:57:44] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:CpsZme" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
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[19:36:27] <mkaply> anyone looked at the new vcard spec yet?
[19:38:10] <mkaply> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-vcarddav-vcardrev-02.txt
[19:51:56] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27472 * TobyInk * (+820) Principles are generalisations - generalisations do not always hold in specific circumstances.
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[20:14:43] <isofarro> http://twitter.com/t/statuses/843517093
[20:20:12] <isofarro> http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats
[20:24:37] <isofarro> http://lab.dotjay.co.uk/tests/screen-readers/microformats/datetime-design-pattern/
[20:24:59] <isofarro> 1998-03-12T09:30:00-05:00
[20:25:12] <isofarro> is read out in JAWS9 as:
[20:25:23] <isofarro> “nineteen ninety-eight dash zero three dash twelve T eight thirty zero zero dash five o'clock”
[20:25:55] <mkaply> well of course it is. The goal is for the reader to read the content of the abbr tag, not the title=
[20:26:44] <isofarro> This problem exists out in the wild here:
[20:26:52] <isofarro> http://twitter.com/t
[20:27:16] <isofarro> For example:
[20:27:29] <isofarro> <abbr class="published" title="2008-06-25T18:59:07+00:00">about 1 hour</abbr>
[20:27:51] <isofarro> Notice that this particular example of the abbr-datetime-pattern
[20:28:12] <isofarro> contains a full ISO date time, which includes the time and timezone information.
[20:29:14] <isofarro> The argument that 2006-01-02 is the most accessible dateformat is bogus, because this is not the format being used, nor is it a real example of the datetime pattern that causing an accessibility barrier.
[20:29:39] <mkaply> It is the most usable date format because it can be universally understood
[20:30:45] <isofarro> mkaply: no.
[20:31:18] <isofarro> The semantic point behind an abbr element is to provide the expansions of an abbreviation.
[20:32:01] <mkaply> Most people agree that abbr wasn't the best solution to this problem. The problem is there isn't a better one that validates in HTML4
[20:32:04] <isofarro> What you are saying is that user-agents must ignore the expansion.
[20:32:19] <mkaply> isofarro: according to that page you posted, most user agents do ignore the expansion
[20:32:23] <mkaply> (screen readers)
[20:33:23] <isofarro> there is a reason the Disability Discrimination Act is centred around protecting minority groups.
[20:34:27] <isofarro> emphasis on minority. Numbers don't mean anything.
[20:34:32] <mkaply> There is active discussion going on to solve this problem. feel free to participate in that discussion
[20:34:33] <mkaply> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern
[20:34:53] <isofarro> I've read this active discussion in today's IRC logs.
[20:36:05] <isofarro> Expecting that people who chose to take advantage of a semantic construct for the purpose it is intended is not constructive.
[20:37:32] <mkaply> Arguing about this on the IRC is not constructive. The problem is being actively discussed on the wiki and there are attempts to solve it. Discussion is welcome there.
[20:37:37] <mkaply> I'm certainly not a spokesperson
[20:38:02] <isofarro> So what is the purpose of this particular IRC channel?
[20:38:18] <mkaply> When people are around there is good discussion :)
[20:38:23] <mkaply> Unfortunately, most of the time, people aren't around
[20:38:46] <isofarro> Sorry, I don't see how that answers my question.
[20:39:23] <hober> isofarro: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the new proposal
[20:39:25] <hober> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#date_and_time_separation_using_value_excerption
[20:41:02] <isofarro> hober: is there an example using dtend?
[20:42:08] <isofarro> http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-25#T001752
[20:45:40] <hober> isofarro: yes, scroll down to "reusing date data for multiple datetime properties"
[20:47:13] <isofarro> the timezone is still problematical.
[20:47:35] <isofarro> <abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30pm</abbr> <abbr class="value" title="-07:00">PDT</abbr>
[20:47:47] <isofarro> That's going to be read out as something like:
[20:48:09] <isofarro> eighteen thirty dash seven o'clock.
[20:48:55] <BobJonkman> isofarro: do any screenreaders properly pronounce 24-hour times?
[20:48:58] <isofarro> One of the problems is that the format of the time zone _looks_ like a time.
[20:49:09] <isofarro> I don't know.
[20:49:42] <isofarro> because something looks like a time, in Jaws 9, it triggers gets read out as a time.
[20:50:04] <BobJonkman> I'm also curious about screenreaders in languages other than English.
[20:51:54] <isofarro> One of the engineers I work with is German-speaking and has his screen reader set-up with that as default.
[20:52:20] <isofarro> Causes some rather interesting problems dealing with english pages without a lang attribute
[20:52:33] <isofarro> since the screen reader defaults to German.
[20:52:41] <BobJonkman> I imagine he gets the same abominable speech for the <abbr> datetime constructs...
[20:53:05] <isofarro> yep. he does.
[20:53:42] <BobJonkman> Well, good to know it's properly internationalized :)
[20:54:43] <isofarro> hober, the other thing to be careful of in the code examples is the context of the data.
[20:55:28] <isofarro> You need to consider how the sentence reads when the abbr ititle is ignored - which in this case sounds okay
[20:55:49] <isofarro> But, it doesn't read as correctly when the title attribute replaces the inner text,
[20:56:11] <isofarro> nor when the title text prefixes or suffixes the inner text.
[20:57:09] <isofarro> So some punctuation would help pause at the right times.
[20:57:19] <isofarro> Take for example this snippet:
[20:57:30] <isofarro> <abbr class="value" title="-07:00">PDT</abbr>
[20:57:59] <isofarro> If the abbr data is ignored, then it just reads "pee dee tee" which is what you'd expect
[20:58:37] <isofarro> If the title replaces the inner text, then it becomes: "dash seven o'clock", or perhaps "minus seven o'clock"
[20:59:12] <isofarro> If the title and inner text are read out, then you might get something like "dash seven o'clock pee dee tee"
[21:00:11] <isofarro> and that particular example could be problematic since the timezone inner text validates or justifies a human from thinking that the seven o'clock actually means a particular time.
[21:01:03] <isofarro> exit
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[21:04:25] <BobJonkman> I'm sorry isofarro left so soon. Just wanted to say that I entirely understand the problem of screenreaders mistaking a timezone for a time. Perhaps we should consider an alternative format for TZ, perhaps just a +/- and four digits, omitting the colon
[21:05:03] <BobJonkman> That doesn't match http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime but gives better real-world results
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[21:11:03] <hober> I had lighly argued for requiring the : in the TZ http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T173659
[21:11:17] <hober> but if the effect is really that bad, I'm fine with dropping it
[21:12:57] <BobJonkman> If the screenreaders interpret all nn:nn as times, then people relying on them will get the wrong time
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[21:13:13] <mkaply> So leaving of the : is actually a better idea?
[21:13:19] <mkaply> because readers won't see it as time?
[21:13:29] <mkaply> If only we were all in one timezone. That would so solve this problem.
[21:13:51] <BobJonkman> It's too much to expect people listening to screenreader output to know enough about the structure of the datetime constructs to know that the final time spoken is actually a timezone
[21:14:10] <BobJonkman> So better results are obtained by breaking spec and omitting the colon.
[21:15:03] <BobJonkman> Parsers shouldn't have any trouble identifying timezones, since it's the only construct consisting of a +/- and four consecutive digits.
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[21:16:29] <BobJonkman> One timezone: I guess all times could be represented as UTC, and omit the TZ data altogether.
[21:16:42] <BobJonkman> Makes date calculations easier too
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[21:17:30] <BobJonkman> I think Operator and X2V already convert to UTC for iCalendar dates anyway
[21:18:20] <mkaply> More services understand Z than offsets (that I've found
[21:19:32] <BobJonkman> What do screenreaders do with a Z?
[21:19:44] <BobJonkman> And is it disruptive for the listener?
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[21:23:29] <mkaply> I don't know
[21:23:32] <mkaply> good question
[21:24:01] <BobJonkman> I'll bet it's less disruptive than hearing TZ pronounced as a time
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[21:25:55] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
[21:31:16] <tantek> hober, I too am fine with dropping (and requiring no) ":" for the time zone
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[21:31:30] <tantek> that leaves no remaining advocates, so I'll go ahead and update the proposal accordingly
[21:32:14] <tantek> so that the TZ is not read as a time.
[21:32:38] <hober> OK
[21:33:05] <BobJonkman> What about deprecating local timezones in microformats, and encouraging only the Z timezone ?
[21:33:34] <BobJonkman> That doesn't break the W3 datetime spec
[21:34:47] <gsnedders> We should just have a µf doctype and just use <time>!
[21:36:16] * gsnedders resumes perma-lurk
[21:36:21] <kingryan> gsnedders: or upgrade to html5
[21:36:47] <gsnedders> kingryan: I mean, maybe it's entirely coincidental I mentioned something that just happens to be in HTML 5 :)
[21:37:19] <hober> BobJonkman: I don't think it's reasonable to expect authors to do TZ math
[21:37:42] <gsnedders> TZs confuse everyone, including people who really should know their way around them
[21:38:09] <BobJonkman> How often are microformats entered manually? If an app is generating microformats it really poses no extra burden
[21:38:29] <BobJonkman> (confession: All the microformatting I've done on my own pages have been constructed by hand)
[21:38:39] <gsnedders> BobJonkman: I've seen enough wrong impls. of TZ maths anyway :)
[21:39:05] <gsnedders> (heck, RFC 822 misdefines almost all the single letter timezones)
[21:39:38] <mkaply> Who owns the microformat mailign list?
[21:39:53] <mkaply> We need to figure out why my mkaply@gmail.com which is properly subscribed to the list never gets messages.
[21:40:00] <BobJonkman> Is it reasonable to expect authors to know their timezone offsets? Including daylight saving time pertubations?
[21:40:06] <gsnedders> BobJonkman: no
[21:40:13] <mkaply> Since my mkaply@us.ibm.com (which I subscribe to now) will be unavailable
[21:40:31] <BobJonkman> So, we're stuck with two unsavoury alternatives
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[21:40:36] <jibot> tobyink is tobyink
[21:40:50] <gsnedders> I don't think there is any clean way to do it
[21:41:08] <gsnedders> Actually, why not something like <span title="" class="date">?
[21:41:29] <tantek> BobJonkman, gsnedders, it's about which practice will lead to higher quality (accurate) data
[21:41:58] <tantek> and punting on timezone databases, and letting authors simply specify the offsets is the current solution to that
[21:42:03] <BobJonkman> tantek: I guess some research is needed to find out which cowpath we pave
[21:42:06] <tantek> choosing math over politics as it were
[21:42:22] <gsnedders> tantek: Yeah, sure. We certainly need them.
[21:42:36] <gsnedders> tantek: Even if a fair number get it wrong :P
[21:43:31] <tobyink> @mkaply/@gsnedders/@kingryan - has anyone given much thought to dealing with <time> given current microformats?
[21:43:57] <kingryan> tobyink: what do you mean?
[21:44:33] <tobyink> i.e. if a publisher on the bleeding edge is already using HTML5, should parsers try to use the datetime attribute of <time class="dtstart"> ?
[21:44:34] <gsnedders> tobyink: The time is given by the dateTime attribute. That's the full complexity. The element is just used in place of the datetime abbr construct
[21:45:28] <gsnedders> tobyink: I wouldn't really, on grounds that it isn't in the spec
[21:46:07] <kingryan> tobyink: i don't think we should be worrying about the bleeding edge
[21:46:17] <kingryan> tobyink: we obviously have enough to deal with already
[21:46:26] <BobJonkman> Yesterday we split the datetime construct, based on the <time> spec in HTML5
[21:46:47] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27473 * Tantek * (+643) date and time separation using value excerption - - YYYY-MM-DD is the most human readable date format, tooltips are a solved problem, timezone MUST NOT use colon, clarify "author chooses" option
[21:47:38] <gsnedders> tobyink: A lot of µf could be changed with HTML 5
[21:51:19] <tobyink> I've been thinking a bit recently about stuff that, though it's technically invalid in HTML 4/XHTML 1.x, should probably be parsed. e.g. content="" attribute from RDFa, <time> element from HTML 5.
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[21:51:43] <gsnedders> tobyink: What about the section element, the article element, etc.?
[21:51:50] <tobyink> Not a question of "should we encourage people to use them", but of "if they've gone and used them, should we parse them"?
[21:52:06] <BobJonkman> gsnedders: I hope nothing new will invalidate microformats under (X)HTML4
[21:52:13] <kingryan> tobyink: yes we should, but we should only worry about it when people start using them
[21:52:32] <gsnedders> µf could really do with a large number of changes once HTML 5 reaches CR
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[21:52:59] <tobyink> Cognition has a document structure parsing function. It gleans the structure of a document from headings, tables, lists, etc. It has some support for XHTML2/HTML5 <section>, etc.
[21:53:30] <gsnedders> I just implemented the HTML 5 "Creating an outline" algorithm last week
[21:53:48] <gsnedders> (it did also involve bullying Hixie into fixing the algorithm so it was actually useful)
[21:53:48] <tantek_> tobyink, could you please capture http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-25#T214433 in /wiki/hcalendar-issues so we can track it?
[21:53:55] <tobyink> (But it's disabled by default because it can cause Cognition to crash if it encounters certain odd-ball structures such as <h2> before an initial <h1>.)
[21:53:58] <tantek_> (even if we don't resolve it immediately)
[21:54:48] <tobyink> @tantek - sure
[21:55:23] <gsnedders> tobyink: HTML 5's algorithm has interesting results in that case
[21:55:26] <tantek_> thanks much!
[21:55:58] <gsnedders> http://james.html5.org/outliner.html is a sample impl, but AFAIK that only works in Fx3
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[21:59:35] <kingryan> yeah, tobyink, i'd suggest looking at the html5 outline algorithm
[22:00:49] <gsnedders> http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/file/tip/specGen/processes/outliner.py is my impl.
[22:02:14] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27474 * Tantek * (+24) time zones - add some code markup
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[22:02:49] <jibot> Broady is Chris Broadfoot, lives in Sydney and blogs at http://chrisbroadfoot.id.au/
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[22:03:55] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27475 * TobyInk * (+771) Other Proposals - HTML 5
[22:04:39] <tantek> TobyInk - we should do that regardless of the datetime-design-pattern discussions
[22:04:59] <tantek> hence my request to add that to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-issues
[22:05:21] <tobyink> @kingryan/@gsnedders - will make sure to check out that algorithm. My document structure algorithm is very fragile. (Hence it being disabled by default.)
[22:05:31] <tantek> in short, we can treat it as an orthogonal issue, and solve in current and potential future cases indepedently.
[22:07:26] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=27476 * TobyInk * (+936) 2008 -
[22:07:55] <tobyink> @tantek - added there too
[22:08:15] <tobyink> ILTRM
[22:09:07] <tantek> ?def ILTRM
[22:09:07] <jibot> Nobody has defined ILTRM yet
[22:09:20] <tobyink> I Like To Repeat Myself ;-)
[22:09:38] <tobyink> I'm feeling lucky: http://groups.xanga.com/groups/group.aspx?id=2141536
[22:10:29] <tantek> better to put it in one place and leave a pointer. hCalendar issues is the right place for it. if you want to leave a pointer in datetime-design-pattern, that would be sufficient (or just remove it)
[22:14:12] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=27477 * TobyInk * (+24) 2008 -
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[22:14:38] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27478 * TobyInk * (-635) HTML 5 <code><time></code> Element -
[22:14:56] <tantek> thanks!
[22:18:25] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-pending]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-pending&diff=0&oldid=27479 * HaroldMaduro * (+159)
[22:25:49] <tobyink> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#outlines FTW - thanks kingryan, gsnedders. That kicks my algorithm's ass (my current algo: what's this tag? it's a heading? do stuff, pray. it's not a heading? do other stuff. roll a pair of dice.)
[22:26:22] <tobyink> (but I always make sure to use unbiased dice. no weighting.)
[22:27:01] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=27480 * Bob Jonkman * (+73) fix broken markup
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[22:54:50] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=27481 * Andr3 * (+33) Adding myself.
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[22:56:21] <jibot> Broady is Chris Broadfoot, lives in Sydney and blogs at http://chrisbroadfoot.id.au/
[23:00:17] <tobyink> @Broady - out of interest, where in Sydney? I used to live in Maroubra, many, many moons ago.
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[23:29:24] <gsnedders> tobyink: Also, it's far more understandable than it was before I started implementing it :P
[23:31:50] <tobyink> I've skimmed through it and it looks fairly sensible. Combines <section>/<hX>-style structure with plain <hX> structures well. (My algo coped very badly when they were mixed.) There's probably a few adjustments that I'll make to the HTML 5 algo though - in particular, I include figures (figure microformat), XOXO lists and certain tables in the outline.
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[23:52:58] <hober> tobyink: please consider emailing any suggested improvements to the outlining algorithm to whatwg@whatwg.org
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