IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-06-03
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [06:44:31] <mfbot>
ChristopheDucamp edited licensing-formats-fr "[fr: sync'd with original version]" (+924) http://is.gd/MWmW
- [06:54:17] <mfbot>
ChristopheDucamp edited operator-fr "[fr : sync'd with original version]" (+921) http://is.gd/MWI7
- [07:02:01] <mfbot>
ChristopheDucamp edited principles-fr "[fr: sync'd with original version]" (+71) http://is.gd/MWZV
- [07:06:58] <mfbot>
ChristopheDucamp created Template:main-fr "New page: <div style="text-indent:2em;font-style:italic">Article principal: [[{{{1}}}]]</div>" http://is.gd/MXbB
- [07:22:45] <mfbot>
ChristopheDucamp created start-simple-fr "[fr : sync'd with original version]" http://is.gd/MXFi
- [07:24:00] <mfbot>
ChristopheDucamp edited start-simple-fr "/* solve simpler problems first */ " (+86) http://is.gd/MXHS
- [07:24:55] <mfbot>
ChristopheDucamp edited start-simple-fr "/* résoudre en priorité les problèmes les plus simples */ typo" (-2) http://is.gd/MXJx
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- [07:26:32] <mfbot>
ChristopheDucamp edited start-simple-fr "/* vocabulaire moderne */ " (+24) http://is.gd/MXNf
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- [07:44:35] <mfbot>
ChristopheDucamp created minimal-vocabulary-fr "[fr: sync'd with original version- to be reviewed]]" http://is.gd/MYoI
- [07:44:58] <mfbot>
ChristopheDucamp edited minimal-vocabulary-fr "typo" (+1) http://is.gd/MYpu
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- [16:32:25] <mfbot>
Tantek edited start-simple-fr "/* résoudre en priorité les problèmes les plus simples */ fix use of main-fr template" (-4) http://is.gd/NhDl
- [16:32:48] <mfbot>
Tantek edited start-simple-fr "/* vocabulaire moderne */ fix use of main-fr template" (-4) http://is.gd/NhEj
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- [17:24:21] <csarven>
http://csarven.ca/labs/jetpack/representative-hcard.php is a simple Mozilla add-on that uses the Jetpack API https://jetpack.mozillalabs.com/ . It shows the vcard photo and fn of a representative hCard and offers a link to download the vCard. A little buggy. It may melt your laptop. =)
- [17:26:15] <singpolyma>
csarven: class="url" rel="me" is sufficient to be representative, uid is a seperate rule
- [17:27:07] <csarven>
So, I guess that can be removed. It is a separate rule for what exactly?
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- [17:27:19] <singpolyma>
.vcard .url[rel=me] || .vcard .uid[href=window.location.href]
- [17:32:16] <csarven>
I guess I should create different cases since there are bunch of proposals. Granted, .vcard .url.uid[rel=me] is pretty strict.
- [17:32:52] <singpolyma>
:)
- [17:36:51] <csarven>
Added return false onclick heh. That was annoying.
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- [17:39:43] <csarven>
singpolyma If you installed it already, might want to uninstall, purge and install again.
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- [17:44:42] <tantek>
csarven, don't worry about the multiple proposals - simply follow the steps in http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard-parsing
- [17:46:16] <tantek>
in short, 1. look for the first hCard with 1. uid=url=source, if none found, then 2. look for the first hCard with rel="me" on a class="url"
- [17:51:08] <mfbot>
Tantek edited to-do "/* Spelling */ recognise(d) -> recognize(d)" (+210) http://is.gd/NlkU
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- [18:08:21] <csarven>
singpolyma tantek Will do, thanks.
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- [18:18:50] <mfbot>
Tantek edited representative-hcard-brainstorming "explicitly separate current proposal from other proposals to better clarify and hopefully reduce confusion about possible existence of a bunch of proposals, update user scenario for current proposal" (+2935) http://is.gd/NmBQ
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- [18:22:40] <csarven>
tantek Must a page with a hCard be a candidate for a representative hCard of that page? Am I understanding this correctly?
- [18:24:00] <csarven>
Nope, nevermind.
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- [18:50:48] <mfbot>
Tantek edited hcard-issues-resolved "/* 2006 */ resolved last open hCard issue from 2006" (+2591) http://is.gd/No3w
- [19:22:30] <mfbot>
Tantek edited hcard-issues-resolved "/* 2007 */ resolve 2007 hCard issues" (+6052) http://is.gd/NpzF
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- [21:16:14] <mfbot>
Tantek edited hcard "/* Property List */ sorted optional properties, added "agent" which had somehow been omitted." (+23) http://is.gd/NuEu
- [21:22:21] <mfbot>
Tantek created minimum-vocabulary "redir" http://is.gd/NuTm
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- [21:50:24] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-class-pattern "/* Date and time parsing */ allow optional leading 0, and optional minutes for time zone offset, per authoring suggestion of "GMT -5" by Jakob Nielsen in http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9608.html" (+416) http://is.gd/Nw7i
- [21:52:10] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-class-pattern "added informative references section with link to Jakob's article on International Web Usability" (+140) http://is.gd/Nwc1
- [21:56:34] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-class-pattern "/* Implementations */ Optimus implements value-title" (+156) http://is.gd/NwmB
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- [22:13:09] <mfbot>
Tantek edited internationalization "noted see also [[en-us-faq]] and [[minimal-vocabulary]] principle, and [[value-class-pattern]] solved remaining internationalization issues, cleaned up references a bit" (+880) http://is.gd/Nx26
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- [22:18:44] <mfbot>
Tantek edited minimal-vocabulary "more precisely named the "renaming anti-pattern" (unintendedirony)" (+146) http://is.gd/Nxet
- [22:21:24] <mfbot>
Tantek edited en-us-faq "added see also section and several inline references, numbered additional answers" (+697) http://is.gd/NxkV
- [22:21:58] <mfbot>
Tantek edited en-us-faq "no need to see also the current page" (-16) http://is.gd/Nxmm
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- [22:33:29] <mfbot>
Tantek edited en-us-faq "missing </blockquote>" (+13) http://is.gd/NxOV
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- [23:13:19] <mfbot>
Tantek edited Template:issues-format "changed use of hCalendar to hAtom, as issues are not really human level "events" that are attended etc., displaying them on a calendar doesn't make any sense. but reading them as a feed makes sense." (+139) http://is.gd/Nzj1
- [23:15:47] <mfbot>
Tantek edited hcard-issues-resolved "/* resolved issues */ resolve 2008 hCard issues, fix User:: links to be User: links." (+25123) http://is.gd/NzoE
- [23:17:18] <benward>
tantek: Note that each wiki entry is already marked up as hAtom, so you need to ensure that each issues list has a surrounding <div class=hfeed> to segregate it
- [23:18:18] <tantek>
is such segregation necessary?
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- [23:18:39] <tantek>
I mean if you "subscribe" to a page - wouldn't it be nice to get the updates of individual items of that page?
- [23:18:54] <benward>
Fair enough
- [23:19:05] <benward>
Erm, what do parses do with nested hAtom at present?
- [23:19:09] <tantek>
or is this just a case where we need to specify what happens with nested hentry elements?
- [23:19:48] <tantek>
I'm thinking it might be better to allow nested hentry elements to be part of the same (possibly implied) hfeed - since explicit containment can always be done with intervening hfeed markup
- [23:23:20] <mfbot>
Tantek edited hcard-issues-resolved "make unique headings for each year for closed vs resolved, tweak new page(s) notes wording for better clarity" (+63) http://is.gd/NzFS
- [23:24:14] <mfbot>
Tantek edited hcard-issues-resolved "fix another errant User:: link" (-1) http://is.gd/NzI2
- [23:24:18] <benward>
Yes. But do parsers currently treat nested hentries as opaque blocks? Or will entry-title in a nested hatom override the entry-title of the main entry?
- [23:24:29] <benward>
They _should_ be opaque blocks
- [23:24:29] <singpolyma>
Seems like defining behaviours for nested hAtom based on the wiki's needs is a bit not awesome
- [23:24:40] <tantek>
agreed they _should_ be opaque blocks
- [23:24:52] <benward>
But as it stands, this is undefined new behaviour
- [23:24:53] <tantek>
Benward, perhaps you can add that to http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues
- [23:24:56] <singpolyma>
Making them opaque blocks is hard, I expect many do not
- [23:24:58] <tantek>
with a proposed resolution
- [23:25:19] <benward>
singpolyma: Yes, I fully expect it's not been implemented that way.
- [23:25:22] <tantek>
singpolyma hCard parsers already do this with AGENT
- [23:25:32] <benward>
tantek: Err… some of them do.
- [23:25:51] <tantek>
the ones that don't should be noted as such in http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implementations
- [23:26:27] <tantek>
and with that, all currently open outstanding hCard issues have been resolved
- [23:26:29] <benward>
AGENT was an ignored property for a long time, it used to be actively downplayed within this community because vcard consumers didn't support it. I've no idea what the current support make-up looks like
- [23:26:51] <singpolyma>
Having done a "right" opaque impl of hAtom in ruby for my previous employer, it also slows the parser down a lot with most XML/HTML processors (because you have to search parents to make sure they are not the thing that must be opaque)
- [23:27:10] <singpolyma>
What is AGENT for?
- [23:27:39] <benward>
They are sub-entities that serve/represent the main vcard
- [23:28:11] <singpolyma>
interesting
- [23:28:12] <benward>
In business context, the main vcard could be, for example ‘Dana B. Lawyer’
- [23:28:35] <tantek>
singpolyma - an instance is not a proof of course - there may be better implementations out there that don't have that problem. check out the options at http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers
- [23:28:35] <benward>
and her vcard contains an AGENT for “Joe Secretary”
- [23:29:07] <benward>
It is, someone who acts as an ‘agent’ of the main person.
- [23:29:24] <singpolyma>
tantek: sure, I'm willing to conceed that I may just suck at writing XPath :)
- [23:29:37] <tantek>
singpolyma - since you asked the question "What is AGENT for?" perhaps you could add it and benward's answer to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq
- [23:29:46] <singpolyma>
benward: Interesting...
- [23:30:01] <singpolyma>
tantek: will do
- [23:30:08] <tantek>
singpolyma - much thanks!
- [23:31:00] <benward>
Agent has a lot of interesting cases
- [23:31:33] <benward>
We published one in the blog entry for Google's Rich Snippets. “Google” was the hCard, and the three Rich Snippet developers were AGENTs.
- [23:32:36] <benward>
It fits into my containers concepting a bit. For example, could you, by default, imply that the organization-name for a listed AGENT is the same as for the parent hCard? Thereby sharing it between them?
- [23:32:46] <mfbot>
Tantek edited hcard-issues "resolved all open issues - see [[hcard-issues-resolved]]." (-24290) http://is.gd/NA2C
- [23:33:23] <benward>
There are cases where it's not: Your personal assistant could be contracted to you, not to your company, but it's a scenario/content optimization that's interesting to me at present.
- [23:33:25] <singpolyma>
benward: it seems like AGENT is more in line with what XFN is for
- [23:33:37] <benward>
XFN is about social relationships
- [23:33:44] <benward>
Agent is an organizational relationship.
- [23:33:51] <mfbot>
Singpolyma edited hcard-faq "What is AGENT?" (+246) http://is.gd/NA5r
- [23:33:52] <benward>
Or, a representational relationship, rather
- [23:34:07] <tantek>
benward - I'm not sure that argument is sufficient (social)
- [23:34:17] <tantek>
as XFN of course has "colleague" and "coworker"
- [23:34:19] <hober>
well, it has co-worker and colleague, seems like agent could fit in
- [23:34:24] <benward>
Oh, that's true
- [23:34:27] <tantek>
right hober
- [23:34:48] <benward>
There's perhaps case for exploring use of AGENT in combination with XFN
- [23:35:22] <tantek>
XFN is for relationships *across* pages
- [23:35:46] <tantek>
AGENT and the containment work is for some relationships in the same page
- [23:35:51] <tantek>
so that's one key difference
- [23:36:04] <benward>
Here's a jump, but interesting, <a class='agent' rel='co-worker' href='http://mycompany.com/people/james-doe'>James Doe</a>
- [23:36:33] <benward>
Lots of stuff to document under brainstorming, anyway
- [23:38:14] <mfbot>
Tantek created hcard-issues-closed "drafted" http://is.gd/NAfu
- [23:40:58] <tantek>
benward, that is interesting. note that that could only work for the representative-hcard for the page, since XFN values are between pages.
- [23:44:11] <mfbot>
Tantek edited hcard-issues-resolved "moved closed issues to [[hcard-issues-closed]], added see also section." (-2279) http://is.gd/NAul
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