IRC Log for #openid on 2007-01-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:05:27] <SIGFPE> So uhm, I'm still confused about jyte
  2. [00:07:10] * SIGFPE has been trying to get someone to tell him why they think it's a good idea.
  3. [00:07:42] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.10) has joined #openid
  4. [00:14:32] <GabeW> just tried it out
  5. [00:15:31] <GabeW> oops - now I've made enemies in a certain political camp ;-)
  6. [00:15:32] <GabeW> hehe
  7. [00:16:21] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) has joined #openid
  8. [00:17:15] <GabeW> so
  9. [00:17:21] <GabeW> jyte could become sorta strangely addictive
  10. [00:18:08] <cygnus> GabeW: http://jyte.com/profile/%3Dgmw is looking kinda lean. you got work to do!
  11. [00:18:28] <GabeW> i have begun an experiment
  12. [00:18:30] <GabeW> on jyte
  13. [00:19:31] <SIGFPE> Well... it's merits as a social networking site aside, as something that actually does anything to verify anything it seems rather sparse...
  14. [00:19:57] <SIGFPE> is it just a fun little thing you people are throwing together, or is it actually meant to be used to verify claims?
  15. [00:20:12] <don-o> is jyte a janrain project?
  16. [00:20:23] <SIGFPE> So it appears
  17. [00:20:25] <gchaix> I can see benefits from the verification of claims maid about oneself
  18. [00:20:41] <gchaix> err ... s/maid/made/ (that came out badly)
  19. [00:20:46] <GabeW> hmm
  20. [00:20:56] <SIGFPE> gchaix: but my point is jyte does nothing to verify those claims
  21. [00:21:18] <SIGFPE> and if it's meant to be used as such, it's misdirected
  22. [00:21:27] <gchaix> No, but other users can. If you trust someone who has given a claim a thumbs-up, that adds credibility
  23. [00:21:30] <GabeW> its all about verified statements by others
  24. [00:21:39] <gchaix> What he said ^^
  25. [00:21:47] <SIGFPE> verified by who?
  26. [00:21:51] <SIGFPE> Does it implement web of trust?
  27. [00:21:54] <GabeW> you can see who made the votes
  28. [00:22:03] <SIGFPE> sure, but you know those people are real, how?
  29. [00:22:10] <SIGFPE> It doesn't actually solve the hard problems
  30. [00:22:22] <GabeW> well, if you know their openid's already
  31. [00:22:33] <GabeW> now, of course, there's no proof here
  32. [00:22:40] <GabeW> jyte could manipulate everything
  33. [00:23:18] <SIGFPE> If someone tried to implement a web of trust on top of Jyte I could maybe see something starting to resemble something useful, but as is honestly it verifies nothing.
  34. [00:23:35] <SIGFPE> You look up my openid, I have a bunch of claims *and* a bunch of sockpuppets supporting them.
  35. [00:23:44] <SIGFPE> Go me, now I have *cred*
  36. [00:23:47] <don-o> SIGFPE: id say it makes a statement about popular belief rather than a verification of a fact
  37. [00:23:49] <GabeW> SIGFPE: well, yes, jyte is not the complete solution to anything yet
  38. [00:23:56] <SIGFPE> don-o: no, it doesn't do that either.
  39. [00:24:09] <gchaix> For example, I know Alex Polvi really *is* alex.polvi.net and I see he gave the thumbs-up to a claim, I can be reasonably sure it is true
  40. [00:24:15] <GabeW> well
  41. [00:24:20] <SIGFPE> don-o: if it did even that I'd be fine with it, all jyte does is make statements about whatever the guy with the most sockpuppets believes.
  42. [00:24:22] <GabeW> you have no proof that jyte isn't tweaking this
  43. [00:24:32] <GabeW> but I trust jyte
  44. [00:24:48] <SIGFPE> GabeW: no, I don't, but even if we were to assume that jyte is trustworthy, their content isn't.
  45. [00:24:48] <GabeW> SIGFPE: yes, someone could theoretically game this
  46. [00:25:09] <_keturn> I agree that the total sum of upvotes/downvotes is much less interesting than *who* made the upvotes and what the cred of those individuals is
  47. [00:25:11] <GabeW> you could come up with an infinite number of openids
  48. [00:25:14] <GabeW> yah
  49. [00:25:16] <GabeW> what keturn said
  50. [00:25:20] <SIGFPE> cred means nothing
  51. [00:25:26] <SIGFPE> sockpuppets can give cred too
  52. [00:25:45] <gchaix> But if you look to see *who* gave the cred, it matters
  53. [00:25:52] <SIGFPE> I could be the most credible person on jyte according to it's statistics by tomorrow if I did a little bit of python scripting tonight.
  54. [00:25:52] <GabeW> what do you mean by sockpuppets?
  55. [00:25:58] <GabeW> well
  56. [00:26:04] <GabeW> you aren't the person on jyte
  57. [00:26:06] <GabeW> you are your openid
  58. [00:26:11] <GabeW> and that openid may be known outside jyte
  59. [00:26:13] <SIGFPE> gchaix: sure, but that makes Jyte vastly less useful, if you already know someone who knows them, why not just ask them?
  60. [00:26:14] <GabeW> in fact, thats the premise
  61. [00:26:27] * hikari_esblogger (n=hikari_e@86.149.32.187) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  62. [00:27:00] <SIGFPE> GabeW: Sure, but I can invest 500 other openids to say good things about my main openid which is known outside jyte, so if someone looks at Jyte to see my reputation they see "wow, this guy has a cred of a gazillon points"
  63. [00:27:10] <SIGFPE> s/invest/invent/
  64. [00:27:17] <GabeW> well, ok, if you are only talking about unknown openid's
  65. [00:27:23] <GabeW> but for example, I know cygnus's openid
  66. [00:27:24] <GabeW> lets say
  67. [00:27:35] <GabeW> and so if I happen to see him vote at jyte, that means something
  68. [00:27:36] * cygnus gasps!
  69. [00:27:57] <trel1023> he didn't say something good or bad
  70. [00:27:58] <_keturn> I'm not sure what the metric used to calculate cred is. It could use Advogato-style techniques for resistance to sock puppets.
  71. [00:28:01] <SIGFPE> GabeW: Sure, but does Jyte easily let you wade through the 500 people who voted on something to find the person you know?
  72. [00:28:10] <GabeW> i don't know if they let you do that
  73. [00:28:17] <trel1023> it should highlight your 'contacts'
  74. [00:28:17] <GabeW> but thts a simple bit of functionality
  75. [00:28:18] <GabeW> in any case
  76. [00:28:21] <GabeW> yes
  77. [00:28:27] <trel1023> your circle voted....
  78. [00:28:31] <GabeW> I don't tink jyte is being pitched as a solution to something
  79. [00:28:32] <GabeW> yet?
  80. [00:28:34] <trel1023> 4up/1down
  81. [00:28:42] <GabeW> more of an experiment, proof of concept
  82. [00:28:42] <trel1023> everyone voted
  83. [00:28:47] <trel1023> 54up/12down
  84. [00:28:47] <GabeW> right
  85. [00:28:48] <SIGFPE> trel1023: sure, if you're implementing a web of trust, then go ahead and do that.
  86. [00:29:00] <trel1023> right
  87. [00:29:06] <SIGFPE> but they're not, and without a web of trust it's a rather useless tool.
  88. [00:29:08] <trel1023> the point is - that i don't know everyone
  89. [00:29:14] <trel1023> so the two totals are helpful
  90. [00:29:24] <trel1023> in their own ways
  91. [00:29:43] <SIGFPE> yes, until you try and verify anything about anyone that your friends don't know.
  92. [00:29:56] <SIGFPE> and then everything falls flat on it's face.
  93. [00:30:05] <SIGFPE> and you certainly can't rely on users with high cred
  94. [00:30:16] <SIGFPE> as cred is a metric that means nothing
  95. [00:30:31] <GabeW> well, anyway, I think you are totally missing the point of this, but i'm sure the janrain folks will be thinking a lot more about what to do with jyte
  96. [00:30:44] <SIGFPE> if cred were computed on a web of trust basis basd on your contacts and was different for each user who asked for another user's cred, then things would be different.
  97. [00:30:52] <trel1023> well, so it's marginally helpful if you don't know anyone who knows about something
  98. [00:30:54] <SIGFPE> I'm *hoping* I'm missing the point of this
  99. [00:30:56] <gchaix> I'd say try out your cred-bot idea and see what happens. If nothing else, it'll highlight a weakness in the system to them
  100. [00:30:57] <trel1023> kinda of like where you'd be anyways
  101. [00:31:20] <trel1023> yes, use the 'auto-verify' site
  102. [00:31:26] <trel1023> and bump yourself up
  103. [00:31:39] <don-o> 16:31 < trel1023> and bump yourself up
  104. [00:31:43] <don-o> whoops sorry
  105. [00:32:22] <SIGFPE> been meaning to script it up and go ahead and do it, but wanted to check in here and make sure none of the JanRain idlers were going to have a problem with it before I start scripting
  106. [00:32:39] <rorek> SIGFPE, It's true that the cred number is just a toy right now.
  107. [00:32:45] <SIGFPE> was frankly hoping someone would convince me it was going to be a waste of my time too...
  108. [00:32:45] <don-o> a CAPCHA might be a good idea
  109. [00:32:59] <SIGFPE> don-o: CAPCHAs don't work
  110. [00:33:20] <don-o> SIGFPE: i think its a waste of time because you're right about a single person creating any number of openIDs
  111. [00:34:30] <don-o> jyte has been a fun site to explore. kudos to the HTML designer
  112. [00:35:00] <SIGFPE> Sure, it's very pretty.
  113. [00:35:09] <SIGFPE> But I'm not sure that's the metrics that matter.
  114. [00:35:18] <cygnus> that's true.
  115. [00:35:52] <GabeW> i think the metric that matters is that it helps to focus discussion on what a real reputation system/site could look like and what challenges it would have
  116. [00:36:00] <GabeW> er, thats not a metric
  117. [00:36:03] <GabeW> but you know what i mean
  118. [00:36:11] <GabeW> all first versions are crappy
  119. [00:37:00] <cygnus> well, the important thing is that jyte is experimental.
  120. [00:37:01] <SIGFPE> yeah, but I was hoping that a first version would have tried to take a stab at solving the problem of creating such a system and not the problem of making it look gorgeous (which it does by the way)
  121. [00:37:02] <rorek> Jyte: the first online reputation site that's actually fun
  122. [00:37:29] <cygnus> SIGFPE: and indeed, it currently does not attempt to solve any Hard Problems, nor does it make any false claim of doing so.
  123. [00:37:48] <SIGFPE> cygnus: I've seen some blog entries reviewing the site that seem to think otherwise.
  124. [00:37:58] <cygnus> irrelevant. :)
  125. [00:38:56] <gchaix> A suggestion ... RSS feed of the "Claims we suspect will interest you" or "Everybody's Claims"
  126. [00:39:00] <SIGFPE> users on the site think it's a decent way to score reputation, the site itself assigns a "Credibility" ranking which has nothing to do with credibility and you say still that the site doesn't at all misrepresent itself and everything's only experiemental so that it's fine that it doesn't try taking a swing at any of the hard problems it'll have to face if anyone tries to actually do somthing about it?
  127. [00:39:17] <SIGFPE> I mean, I'm not trying to rain on your guy's parade here.
  128. [00:39:33] <cygnus> SIGFPE: no problem; you're not
  129. [00:40:53] <don-o> i used to think jyte was cool but now its credibility has gone to zero because of SIGFPE's comments. oh wait irc allows any number of nicks. ok its cool again. :)
  130. [00:41:23] <SIGFPE> don-o: You forget that your comment makes absolutely no sense. :)
  131. [00:41:39] <cygnus> gchaix: support@jyte.com -- please submit recommendations and bugs!
  132. [00:41:39] <GabeW> heh
  133. [00:41:47] <rorek> SIGFPE, we were going to call it whuffie instead of cred but cred just sounds better and is more understandable
  134. [00:41:56] <don-o> whuffie!!
  135. [00:41:58] <gchaix> Will do ... was just putting a claim up to see what happens. :-)
  136. [00:42:27] <SIGFPE> rorek: Understandable indeed as I would argue you do want to try and establish credibility, no?
  137. [00:43:01] <trel1023> you've seen yapsociety?
  138. [00:43:02] <SIGFPE> This isn't a game of semantics, if you were calling it whuffie you'd still be trying to represent it as a form of "this user has lots of whuffie and that's good"
  139. [00:43:12] <trel1023> the math is real and it's on top of skype at this point
  140. [00:43:32] <rorek> It's true that the current algorithm is succeptible to gaming, but we're working on ways around that
  141. [00:44:31] <SIGFPE> rorek: Your basis is openid, which verifies nothing about a user, you're going to have to do more than tweak you're algorithm, you're going to have to introduce some sort of verification, be it web of trust or otherwise...
  142. [00:45:54] <SIGFPE> Then even then you're going to have to seriously tweak your algorithm to get around the "everyone likes adding friends" effect that myspace so reliably demonstrates... there will eventually be people in your web of trust who got there just because they asked one of your friends who happens to like to add everyone who asks.
  143. [00:45:56] <_keturn> yapsociety? did bitchun change its name?
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  145. [00:46:38] <trel1023> the same
  146. [00:46:49] <SIGFPE> rorek: I'm just trying to impress on you that what you've embarked on is a project to add verification to an underlying technology which makes no such assurances.
  147. [00:46:51] <trel1023> i think he's struggling with the brand, yes
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  149. [00:48:23] <rorek> At the moment we're leaving the verification up to the users. We just collect the data.
  150. [00:48:32] <evanpro> aren't the yap islands the ones that use giant rocks for currency?
  151. [00:48:45] <trel1023> http://yapsociety.com/
  152. [00:49:06] <evanpro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones
  153. [00:49:28] <evanpro> I can't really see 6-foot-tall stone wheels as a suitable basis for online identity
  154. [00:49:47] <trel1023> stones served as a memory of contributions between islanders.
  155. [00:49:54] <trel1023> a fair attempt i think
  156. [00:50:42] <trel1023> will be interesting to see how it is gamed, if at all, once it's bigger than 10 people playing with it
  157. [00:51:03] <trel1023> but this is not fly by night math
  158. [00:51:04] <trel1023> http://yapsociety.com/YapRank?v=5ak
  159. [00:51:15] <SIGFPE> rorek: anyone can collect data, it's how you represent it...
  160. [00:51:35] <SIGFPE> rorek: if you just wanted to collect data and give it to users, why not let people connect to your database directly? :)
  161. [00:52:16] <rorek> because most people don't speak SQL
  162. [00:52:43] <SIGFPE> rorek: Sure, but your frontend doesn't give people any of the tools they need to verify the data themselves either.
  163. [00:53:05] <rorek> SIGFPE, what would you like to see, specifically?
  164. [00:53:20] <SIGFPE> rorek: a plan.
  165. [00:53:44] <SIGFPE> rorek: be it a web of trust or something different, I'd like to see some sort of plan to actually make Jyte actually do what it is saying it does.
  166. [00:54:22] <rorek> I forsee web of trust in the future of jyte.
  167. [00:55:08] <rorek> but I'm just a worker bee.
  168. [00:55:21] <don-o> jyte's support of multiple openids per account is very interesting.
  169. [00:55:23] <SIGFPE> So who's the hivemind?
  170. [00:55:51] <don-o> it makes sense but no other site wants to bother with the implementation.
  171. [00:58:11] <gchaix> SIGFPE: I'm not a janrain person, but I would guess kveton (?)
  172. [00:59:41] <SIGFPE> gchaix: good to know, thanks.
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  198. [08:50:38] <jibot> chowells79 is yet another Janrain idler.
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  202. [11:39:51] <jibot> xlarrydrebes is yet another Janrain idler.
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  208. [16:04:39] <jibot> xlarrydrebes is yet another Janrain idler.
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  215. [17:28:20] <jibot> cygnus is WorkerBee(name="Jonathan Daugherty", company="JanRain, Inc.")
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  229. [18:38:44] * PatF (i=Patrick@nat/novell/x-135ec5e4268fc754) has joined #openid
  230. [19:58:04] * brianellin (n=brianell@c-71-236-228-127.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #openid
  231. [20:24:25] * mpg4 (n=mpg4@c-71-236-228-127.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  232. [20:25:04] * tango_ (n=tex_vim@host-84-221-19-65.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  233. [20:27:18] * tango_ (n=tex_vim@host-84-220-50-79.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) has joined #openid
  234. [20:45:21] * nfolson (n=nfolson@CPE-76-177-177-204.natsoe.res.rr.com) has joined #openid
  235. [21:06:55] * mmell (n=mmell@adsl-75-35-117-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) Quit ("Computer goes to sleep!")
  236. [21:13:23] * brianellin (n=brianell@c-71-236-228-127.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  237. [21:13:42] * daleolds (i=daleolds@nat/novell/x-1f79ee068cf8d290) has joined #openid
  238. [21:23:40] * nfolson (n=nfolson@CPE-76-177-177-204.natsoe.res.rr.com) Quit ()
  239. [21:28:49] * brianellin (n=brianell@71-214-102-222.ptld.qwest.net) has joined #openid
  240. [21:34:05] * brianellin (n=brianell@71-214-102-222.ptld.qwest.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  241. [21:38:42] * vals_ (n=tex_vim@host-84-220-199-33.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) has joined #openid
  242. [21:55:40] * tango_ (n=tex_vim@host-84-220-50-79.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  243. [22:29:32] * cygnus (n=cygnus@www.cprogrammer.org) has left #openid
  244. [22:33:52] * rkerr (n=rowan@38.99.162.188) has left #openid
  245. [22:36:38] * mmell (n=mmell@adsl-75-18-199-3.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) has joined #openid
  246. [22:37:26] * daleolds (i=daleolds@nat/novell/x-1f79ee068cf8d290) has left #openid
  247. [22:46:49] * vals_ is now known as tango_
  248. [23:25:56] * hikari_esblogger (n=hikari_e@host86-128-249-54.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  249. [23:32:33] * mpg4 (n=mpg4@c-71-236-228-127.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #openid
  250. [23:47:05] * xlarrydrebes (n=xlarrydr@c-71-236-228-127.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ()

These logs were automatically created by OpenIDlogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.