IRC Log for #openid on 2007-01-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:05:27] <SIGFPE>
So uhm, I'm still confused about jyte
- [00:07:10] * SIGFPE has been trying to get someone to tell him why they think it's a good idea.
- [00:07:42] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.10) has joined #openid
- [00:14:32] <GabeW>
just tried it out
- [00:15:31] <GabeW>
oops - now I've made enemies in a certain political camp ;-)
- [00:15:32] <GabeW>
hehe
- [00:16:21] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) has joined #openid
- [00:17:15] <GabeW>
so
- [00:17:21] <GabeW>
jyte could become sorta strangely addictive
- [00:18:08] <cygnus>
GabeW: http://jyte.com/profile/%3Dgmw is looking kinda lean. you got work to do!
- [00:18:28] <GabeW>
i have begun an experiment
- [00:18:30] <GabeW>
on jyte
- [00:19:31] <SIGFPE>
Well... it's merits as a social networking site aside, as something that actually does anything to verify anything it seems rather sparse...
- [00:19:57] <SIGFPE>
is it just a fun little thing you people are throwing together, or is it actually meant to be used to verify claims?
- [00:20:12] <don-o>
is jyte a janrain project?
- [00:20:23] <SIGFPE>
So it appears
- [00:20:25] <gchaix>
I can see benefits from the verification of claims maid about oneself
- [00:20:41] <gchaix>
err ... s/maid/made/ (that came out badly)
- [00:20:46] <GabeW>
hmm
- [00:20:56] <SIGFPE>
gchaix: but my point is jyte does nothing to verify those claims
- [00:21:18] <SIGFPE>
and if it's meant to be used as such, it's misdirected
- [00:21:27] <gchaix>
No, but other users can. If you trust someone who has given a claim a thumbs-up, that adds credibility
- [00:21:30] <GabeW>
its all about verified statements by others
- [00:21:39] <gchaix>
What he said ^^
- [00:21:47] <SIGFPE>
verified by who?
- [00:21:51] <SIGFPE>
Does it implement web of trust?
- [00:21:54] <GabeW>
you can see who made the votes
- [00:22:03] <SIGFPE>
sure, but you know those people are real, how?
- [00:22:10] <SIGFPE>
It doesn't actually solve the hard problems
- [00:22:22] <GabeW>
well, if you know their openid's already
- [00:22:33] <GabeW>
now, of course, there's no proof here
- [00:22:40] <GabeW>
jyte could manipulate everything
- [00:23:18] <SIGFPE>
If someone tried to implement a web of trust on top of Jyte I could maybe see something starting to resemble something useful, but as is honestly it verifies nothing.
- [00:23:35] <SIGFPE>
You look up my openid, I have a bunch of claims *and* a bunch of sockpuppets supporting them.
- [00:23:44] <SIGFPE>
Go me, now I have *cred*
- [00:23:47] <don-o>
SIGFPE: id say it makes a statement about popular belief rather than a verification of a fact
- [00:23:49] <GabeW>
SIGFPE: well, yes, jyte is not the complete solution to anything yet
- [00:23:56] <SIGFPE>
don-o: no, it doesn't do that either.
- [00:24:09] <gchaix>
For example, I know Alex Polvi really *is* alex.polvi.net and I see he gave the thumbs-up to a claim, I can be reasonably sure it is true
- [00:24:15] <GabeW>
well
- [00:24:20] <SIGFPE>
don-o: if it did even that I'd be fine with it, all jyte does is make statements about whatever the guy with the most sockpuppets believes.
- [00:24:22] <GabeW>
you have no proof that jyte isn't tweaking this
- [00:24:32] <GabeW>
but I trust jyte
- [00:24:48] <SIGFPE>
GabeW: no, I don't, but even if we were to assume that jyte is trustworthy, their content isn't.
- [00:24:48] <GabeW>
SIGFPE: yes, someone could theoretically game this
- [00:25:09] <_keturn>
I agree that the total sum of upvotes/downvotes is much less interesting than *who* made the upvotes and what the cred of those individuals is
- [00:25:11] <GabeW>
you could come up with an infinite number of openids
- [00:25:14] <GabeW>
yah
- [00:25:16] <GabeW>
what keturn said
- [00:25:20] <SIGFPE>
cred means nothing
- [00:25:26] <SIGFPE>
sockpuppets can give cred too
- [00:25:45] <gchaix>
But if you look to see *who* gave the cred, it matters
- [00:25:52] <SIGFPE>
I could be the most credible person on jyte according to it's statistics by tomorrow if I did a little bit of python scripting tonight.
- [00:25:52] <GabeW>
what do you mean by sockpuppets?
- [00:25:58] <GabeW>
well
- [00:26:04] <GabeW>
you aren't the person on jyte
- [00:26:06] <GabeW>
you are your openid
- [00:26:11] <GabeW>
and that openid may be known outside jyte
- [00:26:13] <SIGFPE>
gchaix: sure, but that makes Jyte vastly less useful, if you already know someone who knows them, why not just ask them?
- [00:26:14] <GabeW>
in fact, thats the premise
- [00:26:27] * hikari_esblogger (n=hikari_e@86.149.32.187) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [00:27:00] <SIGFPE>
GabeW: Sure, but I can invest 500 other openids to say good things about my main openid which is known outside jyte, so if someone looks at Jyte to see my reputation they see "wow, this guy has a cred of a gazillon points"
- [00:27:10] <SIGFPE>
s/invest/invent/
- [00:27:17] <GabeW>
well, ok, if you are only talking about unknown openid's
- [00:27:23] <GabeW>
but for example, I know cygnus's openid
- [00:27:24] <GabeW>
lets say
- [00:27:35] <GabeW>
and so if I happen to see him vote at jyte, that means something
- [00:27:36] * cygnus gasps!
- [00:27:57] <trel1023>
he didn't say something good or bad
- [00:27:58] <_keturn>
I'm not sure what the metric used to calculate cred is. It could use Advogato-style techniques for resistance to sock puppets.
- [00:28:01] <SIGFPE>
GabeW: Sure, but does Jyte easily let you wade through the 500 people who voted on something to find the person you know?
- [00:28:10] <GabeW>
i don't know if they let you do that
- [00:28:17] <trel1023>
it should highlight your 'contacts'
- [00:28:17] <GabeW>
but thts a simple bit of functionality
- [00:28:18] <GabeW>
in any case
- [00:28:21] <GabeW>
yes
- [00:28:27] <trel1023>
your circle voted....
- [00:28:31] <GabeW>
I don't tink jyte is being pitched as a solution to something
- [00:28:32] <GabeW>
yet?
- [00:28:34] <trel1023>
4up/1down
- [00:28:42] <GabeW>
more of an experiment, proof of concept
- [00:28:42] <trel1023>
everyone voted
- [00:28:47] <trel1023>
54up/12down
- [00:28:47] <GabeW>
right
- [00:28:48] <SIGFPE>
trel1023: sure, if you're implementing a web of trust, then go ahead and do that.
- [00:29:00] <trel1023>
right
- [00:29:06] <SIGFPE>
but they're not, and without a web of trust it's a rather useless tool.
- [00:29:08] <trel1023>
the point is - that i don't know everyone
- [00:29:14] <trel1023>
so the two totals are helpful
- [00:29:24] <trel1023>
in their own ways
- [00:29:43] <SIGFPE>
yes, until you try and verify anything about anyone that your friends don't know.
- [00:29:56] <SIGFPE>
and then everything falls flat on it's face.
- [00:30:05] <SIGFPE>
and you certainly can't rely on users with high cred
- [00:30:16] <SIGFPE>
as cred is a metric that means nothing
- [00:30:31] <GabeW>
well, anyway, I think you are totally missing the point of this, but i'm sure the janrain folks will be thinking a lot more about what to do with jyte
- [00:30:44] <SIGFPE>
if cred were computed on a web of trust basis basd on your contacts and was different for each user who asked for another user's cred, then things would be different.
- [00:30:52] <trel1023>
well, so it's marginally helpful if you don't know anyone who knows about something
- [00:30:54] <SIGFPE>
I'm *hoping* I'm missing the point of this
- [00:30:56] <gchaix>
I'd say try out your cred-bot idea and see what happens. If nothing else, it'll highlight a weakness in the system to them
- [00:30:57] <trel1023>
kinda of like where you'd be anyways
- [00:31:20] <trel1023>
yes, use the 'auto-verify' site
- [00:31:26] <trel1023>
and bump yourself up
- [00:31:39] <don-o>
16:31 < trel1023> and bump yourself up
- [00:31:43] <don-o>
whoops sorry
- [00:32:22] <SIGFPE>
been meaning to script it up and go ahead and do it, but wanted to check in here and make sure none of the JanRain idlers were going to have a problem with it before I start scripting
- [00:32:39] <rorek>
SIGFPE, It's true that the cred number is just a toy right now.
- [00:32:45] <SIGFPE>
was frankly hoping someone would convince me it was going to be a waste of my time too...
- [00:32:45] <don-o>
a CAPCHA might be a good idea
- [00:32:59] <SIGFPE>
don-o: CAPCHAs don't work
- [00:33:20] <don-o>
SIGFPE: i think its a waste of time because you're right about a single person creating any number of openIDs
- [00:34:30] <don-o>
jyte has been a fun site to explore. kudos to the HTML designer
- [00:35:00] <SIGFPE>
Sure, it's very pretty.
- [00:35:09] <SIGFPE>
But I'm not sure that's the metrics that matter.
- [00:35:18] <cygnus>
that's true.
- [00:35:52] <GabeW>
i think the metric that matters is that it helps to focus discussion on what a real reputation system/site could look like and what challenges it would have
- [00:36:00] <GabeW>
er, thats not a metric
- [00:36:03] <GabeW>
but you know what i mean
- [00:36:11] <GabeW>
all first versions are crappy
- [00:37:00] <cygnus>
well, the important thing is that jyte is experimental.
- [00:37:01] <SIGFPE>
yeah, but I was hoping that a first version would have tried to take a stab at solving the problem of creating such a system and not the problem of making it look gorgeous (which it does by the way)
- [00:37:02] <rorek>
Jyte: the first online reputation site that's actually fun
- [00:37:29] <cygnus>
SIGFPE: and indeed, it currently does not attempt to solve any Hard Problems, nor does it make any false claim of doing so.
- [00:37:48] <SIGFPE>
cygnus: I've seen some blog entries reviewing the site that seem to think otherwise.
- [00:37:58] <cygnus>
irrelevant. :)
- [00:38:56] <gchaix>
A suggestion ... RSS feed of the "Claims we suspect will interest you" or "Everybody's Claims"
- [00:39:00] <SIGFPE>
users on the site think it's a decent way to score reputation, the site itself assigns a "Credibility" ranking which has nothing to do with credibility and you say still that the site doesn't at all misrepresent itself and everything's only experiemental so that it's fine that it doesn't try taking a swing at any of the hard problems it'll have to face if anyone tries to actually do somthing about it?
- [00:39:17] <SIGFPE>
I mean, I'm not trying to rain on your guy's parade here.
- [00:39:33] <cygnus>
SIGFPE: no problem; you're not
- [00:40:53] <don-o>
i used to think jyte was cool but now its credibility has gone to zero because of SIGFPE's comments. oh wait irc allows any number of nicks. ok its cool again. :)
- [00:41:23] <SIGFPE>
don-o: You forget that your comment makes absolutely no sense. :)
- [00:41:39] <cygnus>
gchaix: support@jyte.com -- please submit recommendations and bugs!
- [00:41:39] <GabeW>
heh
- [00:41:47] <rorek>
SIGFPE, we were going to call it whuffie instead of cred but cred just sounds better and is more understandable
- [00:41:56] <don-o>
whuffie!!
- [00:41:58] <gchaix>
Will do ... was just putting a claim up to see what happens. :-)
- [00:42:27] <SIGFPE>
rorek: Understandable indeed as I would argue you do want to try and establish credibility, no?
- [00:43:01] <trel1023>
you've seen yapsociety?
- [00:43:02] <SIGFPE>
This isn't a game of semantics, if you were calling it whuffie you'd still be trying to represent it as a form of "this user has lots of whuffie and that's good"
- [00:43:12] <trel1023>
the math is real and it's on top of skype at this point
- [00:43:32] <rorek>
It's true that the current algorithm is succeptible to gaming, but we're working on ways around that
- [00:44:31] <SIGFPE>
rorek: Your basis is openid, which verifies nothing about a user, you're going to have to do more than tweak you're algorithm, you're going to have to introduce some sort of verification, be it web of trust or otherwise...
- [00:45:54] <SIGFPE>
Then even then you're going to have to seriously tweak your algorithm to get around the "everyone likes adding friends" effect that myspace so reliably demonstrates... there will eventually be people in your web of trust who got there just because they asked one of your friends who happens to like to add everyone who asks.
- [00:45:56] <_keturn>
yapsociety? did bitchun change its name?
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- [00:46:38] <trel1023>
the same
- [00:46:49] <SIGFPE>
rorek: I'm just trying to impress on you that what you've embarked on is a project to add verification to an underlying technology which makes no such assurances.
- [00:46:51] <trel1023>
i think he's struggling with the brand, yes
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- [00:48:23] <rorek>
At the moment we're leaving the verification up to the users. We just collect the data.
- [00:48:32] <evanpro>
aren't the yap islands the ones that use giant rocks for currency?
- [00:48:45] <trel1023>
http://yapsociety.com/
- [00:49:06] <evanpro>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones
- [00:49:28] <evanpro>
I can't really see 6-foot-tall stone wheels as a suitable basis for online identity
- [00:49:47] <trel1023>
stones served as a memory of contributions between islanders.
- [00:49:54] <trel1023>
a fair attempt i think
- [00:50:42] <trel1023>
will be interesting to see how it is gamed, if at all, once it's bigger than 10 people playing with it
- [00:51:03] <trel1023>
but this is not fly by night math
- [00:51:04] <trel1023>
http://yapsociety.com/YapRank?v=5ak
- [00:51:15] <SIGFPE>
rorek: anyone can collect data, it's how you represent it...
- [00:51:35] <SIGFPE>
rorek: if you just wanted to collect data and give it to users, why not let people connect to your database directly? :)
- [00:52:16] <rorek>
because most people don't speak SQL
- [00:52:43] <SIGFPE>
rorek: Sure, but your frontend doesn't give people any of the tools they need to verify the data themselves either.
- [00:53:05] <rorek>
SIGFPE, what would you like to see, specifically?
- [00:53:20] <SIGFPE>
rorek: a plan.
- [00:53:44] <SIGFPE>
rorek: be it a web of trust or something different, I'd like to see some sort of plan to actually make Jyte actually do what it is saying it does.
- [00:54:22] <rorek>
I forsee web of trust in the future of jyte.
- [00:55:08] <rorek>
but I'm just a worker bee.
- [00:55:21] <don-o>
jyte's support of multiple openids per account is very interesting.
- [00:55:23] <SIGFPE>
So who's the hivemind?
- [00:55:51] <don-o>
it makes sense but no other site wants to bother with the implementation.
- [00:58:11] <gchaix>
SIGFPE: I'm not a janrain person, but I would guess kveton (?)
- [00:59:41] <SIGFPE>
gchaix: good to know, thanks.
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- [08:50:38] <jibot>
chowells79 is yet another Janrain idler.
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- [11:39:51] <jibot>
xlarrydrebes is yet another Janrain idler.
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- [16:04:39] <jibot>
xlarrydrebes is yet another Janrain idler.
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- [17:28:20] <jibot>
cygnus is WorkerBee(name="Jonathan Daugherty", company="JanRain, Inc.")
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- [20:25:04] * tango_ (n=tex_vim@host-84-221-19-65.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
- [20:27:18] * tango_ (n=tex_vim@host-84-220-50-79.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) has joined #openid
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- [21:06:55] * mmell (n=mmell@adsl-75-35-117-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) Quit ("Computer goes to sleep!")
- [21:13:23] * brianellin (n=brianell@c-71-236-228-127.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- [21:13:42] * daleolds (i=daleolds@nat/novell/x-1f79ee068cf8d290) has joined #openid
- [21:23:40] * nfolson (n=nfolson@CPE-76-177-177-204.natsoe.res.rr.com) Quit ()
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- [21:55:40] * tango_ (n=tex_vim@host-84-220-50-79.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [22:29:32] * cygnus (n=cygnus@www.cprogrammer.org) has left #openid
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- [22:37:26] * daleolds (i=daleolds@nat/novell/x-1f79ee068cf8d290) has left #openid
- [22:46:49] * vals_ is now known as tango_
- [23:25:56] * hikari_esblogger (n=hikari_e@host86-128-249-54.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [23:32:33] * mpg4 (n=mpg4@c-71-236-228-127.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #openid
- [23:47:05] * xlarrydrebes (n=xlarrydr@c-71-236-228-127.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ()
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