IRC Log for #openid on 2007-10-03
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [01:52:22] <hachi>
mmmmmmmmm, bother
- [01:52:34] <melvster_>
wassup?
- [01:52:47] <hachi>
does this 'jibot' thing introduce people or something?
- [01:53:09] <hachi>
?help
- [01:53:13] <melvster_>
yeah
- [01:54:42] <hachi>
?learn hachi is hachi (Perl Pirate) of Six Apart
- [01:54:42] <jibot>
hachi is hachi (Perl Pirate) of Six Apart
- [01:54:44] <melvster_>
does more than that too
- [01:54:51] <hachi>
yeah, I read that now finally :)
- [01:55:02] * melvster (n=chatzill@p57970E3D.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
- [01:55:38] <melvster_>
?karma
- [01:55:38] <jibot>
Karma Dump available at: http://an9.org/~jibot
- [01:56:10] <melvster_>
? karma hachi
- [01:56:10] <jibot>
hachi has 0 points
- [01:56:12] <hachi>
heh, 404
- [01:56:26] <melvster_>
hachi++
- [01:56:29] <melvster_>
? karma hachi
- [01:56:29] <jibot>
hachi has 1 point
- [01:56:33] <melvster_>
ta da
- [01:56:42] <melvster_>
you got karma now
- [01:56:47] <hachi>
that's enough points for me
- [01:57:38] <melvster_>
?help
- [01:59:06] <melvster_>
hmm didnt know there was a microformats channel
- [01:59:08] <melvster_>
cool
- [01:59:35] <hachi>
there are too many standards for me to follow... bleh
- [01:59:57] <melvster_>
lots going on
- [02:00:21] <melvster_>
but microformats is pretty easy
- [02:03:52] <melvster_>
the web sort of runs on microformats already but most people just dont realise it
- [02:05:08] <don-o>
then that ontology group came along and said bam! this spec makes microformats obsolete
- [02:05:47] <melvster_>
which ontology group?
- [02:06:06] <don-o>
i knew you'd ask that. im poking around. cant remember
- [02:06:14] <melvster_>
hehe
- [02:06:26] <don-o>
it was a blog post that said hey yeah, microformats has an achile's heel
- [02:06:44] <melvster_>
only insofar as html is an achilles heal
- [02:07:02] <melvster_>
but we're stuck with one, so why not the other?
- [02:07:02] <don-o>
heh. i think its too ambigious to use the class attribute the way microformats does
- [02:07:35] <hachi>
I think I need to ignore this conversation and worry about openid, oauth, and atom for the moment
- [02:07:36] <don-o>
this other spec was more specific, oh the blog was also about an HTML 5 attribute and how it helps
- [02:07:54] <don-o>
that should help my googling :)
- [02:09:55] * SignpostMarv joins in on the jibot goodness
- [02:09:57] <SignpostMarv>
?forgetme
- [02:09:57] <jibot>
I have expunged SignpostMarv from my mind
- [02:10:24] <SignpostMarv>
?learn SignpostMarv is a WordPress, Second Life & OpenID geek
- [02:10:24] <jibot>
SignpostMarv is a WordPress, Second Life and OpenID geek
- [02:10:46] <don-o>
melvster_: RDFa. the article is here: http://evan.prodromou.name/RDFa_vs_microformats
- [02:12:30] <hachi>
I'm gonna talk down about David Recordon here... it'll be funny :)
- [02:14:16] <melvster_>
interesting article, i love the way the piece is all about markup but doesnt render properly in firefox :)
- [02:14:19] <don-o>
adoption of this stuff is so hit and miss. i exported my contacts list from gmail and the only format it supports is CSV. ha.
- [02:14:31] <don-o>
melvster_: lol. why not?
- [02:14:32] <melvster_>
csv is great
- [02:14:44] <melvster_>
dunno i got text going all accross my page
- [02:14:48] <melvster_>
bumping into the menus
- [02:15:13] <melvster_>
still can just about read it though, it's just ironic that the article is about the best way to mark up your xhtml :)
- [02:15:26] <don-o>
oh the article itself? i thought you meant the RDFa examples that you made a new file out of.
- [02:15:42] <don-o>
that is funny although it renders fine on my FF 2.0
- [02:18:32] <melvster_>
wierd im running 2.0.0.7
- [02:18:50] <melvster_>
speaking of which i noticed today openid is "at risk" in firefox 3?
- [02:19:20] <GabeW>
really?
- [02:22:27] <melvster_>
yep
- [02:22:43] <melvster_>
don-o: very good article, thanks i enjoyed that
- [02:22:47] <melvster_>
lemme find the link
- [02:23:09] <GabeW>
would be nice to know why
- [02:23:26] <don-o>
melvster_: yup. i think its more than at risk. :(
- [02:23:54] <don-o>
there was a good comment somewhere about the FF devs probably didnt know what the heck to implement.
- [02:24:13] <GabeW>
heh
- [02:24:15] <GabeW>
hmm
- [02:24:17] <don-o>
i mean i think that original request was really asking for an identity selector.
- [02:24:24] <GabeW>
?
- [02:24:34] <GabeW>
is there a URL for this question/conclusion?
- [02:24:35] <don-o>
a cardspace thingy
- [02:24:42] <melvster_>
well the guy who's doing it does the password manager and a few other things
- [02:24:49] <melvster_>
yes cardspace is at risk too
- [02:24:58] <GabeW>
*that* is kinda unfortunate
- [02:25:02] <melvster_>
sorry just getting the url
- [02:25:06] <GabeW>
ok
- [02:25:09] <don-o>
heh. the first thing i do with any new firefox install is turn off the password manager.
- [02:25:15] <GabeW>
really?
- [02:25:16] <GabeW>
i use it
- [02:27:03] <don-o>
melvster_: what does that mean?
- [02:27:15] <don-o>
melvster_: whoops sorry out of context comment
- [02:27:29] <don-o>
my backscroll was up.. uh what does cardspace is at risk mean
- [02:28:19] <melvster_>
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/Product_Requirements_Document
- [02:28:39] * melvster_ is now known as Melvster
- [02:28:53] <Melvster>
Justin Dolske
- [02:28:55] <GabeW>
hm
- [02:28:56] <Melvster>
that's the guy
- [02:28:58] <GabeW>
thats not very helpful
- [02:29:32] <Melvster>
PASS-002a At risk Support Microsoft CardSpace on Windows Justin Dolske
- [02:29:34] <Melvster>
PASS-002b At risk Support OpenID Justin Dolske
- [02:29:42] <GabeW>
yah
- [02:29:47] <GabeW>
i mean, it doesn't say what the thinking is
- [02:29:54] <Melvster>
im guessing the reason is time constraint
- [02:29:57] <don-o>
Melvster: ohhh i didnt know cardspace was its own lineitem.
- [02:29:59] <GabeW>
where is factoryjoe!!
- [02:30:00] <Melvster>
look at all the other stuff he has to do
- [02:30:21] <don-o>
Justin!
- [02:30:35] <don-o>
someone needs to get that guy on the phone :)
- [02:30:49] <Melvster>
or send him some code :)
- [02:31:40] <GabeW>
yah, I mean, it has to be pretty clear whats needed to be implemented
- [02:32:21] <Melvster>
im not even sure how openid would 'intetegrate' into firefox?
- [02:32:22] <don-o>
yeah. i would think FF3 would want to be able to recieve, store, and select infocards
- [02:34:16] <don-o>
what standards to follow in order to do that is very fuzzy, to me anyways.
- [02:34:18] <Melvster>
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p4kVYBRbEKKiemLr9CI-tZw
- [02:34:38] <Melvster>
ah openid not in there :(
- [02:35:55] <GabeW>
don-o: well information card specs are pretty obvious I think
- [02:36:14] <GabeW>
but - not clear where openid would be implemented since its designed *not* to require client support
- [02:36:46] <Melvster>
cant openid be implemented between client and server?
- [02:36:53] <Melvster>
ie 2 machines instead of 3?
- [02:37:02] <GabeW>
uh
- [02:37:09] <GabeW>
not really
- [02:37:17] <SignpostMarv>
wouldn't FF3 Implementation of OpenID just be a combination of the password manager & form username autocomplete ?
- [02:37:17] <GabeW>
i mean, if the client machine happens to be advertised at the OP
- [02:37:34] <GabeW>
i mean, if the client machine happens to be advertised *as* the OP
- [02:37:41] <don-o>
SignpostMarv: a lame implementation, yes :)
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- [02:38:04] <don-o>
SignpostMarv: i would think it would do as least as much as the seatbelt extension
- [02:38:59] <GabeW>
hmm
- [02:39:00] <GabeW>
yah
- [02:39:11] <SignpostMarv>
seatbelt extension ?
- [02:40:41] <don-o>
SignpostMarv: https://pip.verisignlabs.com/seatbelt.do
- [02:41:51] <SignpostMarv>
"SeatBelt detects that you have clicked on an OpenID sign in field while not signed into your PIP account and prompts you to sign in."
- [02:42:07] <SignpostMarv>
if the information is in the password manager, FF should probably attempt to log you in itself :-P
- [02:44:10] <Melvster>
so what about things like the proovme certificates, does that allow you to login without with redirecting?
- [02:44:19] <don-o>
SignpostMarv: they're being modest :) it does phishing detection and has a neat status icon showing logged in/out to your Id provider
- [02:45:16] <GabeW>
i think it would be prudent to have users to log into their OP's when they first launch their browsers
- [02:45:22] <GabeW>
having firefox support that would be nice
- [02:49:11] <Melvster>
i guess that works
- [02:49:19] <Melvster>
maybe a list of openids
- [02:49:27] <Melvster>
and click if you want to login on startup
- [02:49:37] <Melvster>
but that expires, right?
- [02:49:48] <GabeW>
depends on the OP
- [02:50:38] <Melvster>
i think this makes sense
- [02:51:19] <Melvster>
just like you sign in to messenger or skype when you start it up
- [02:51:26] <GabeW>
well yajh
- [02:51:32] <GabeW>
i sign into my password manager on startup
- [02:51:40] <GabeW>
or usually early on
- [02:52:01] <don-o>
id like to see the openid signon be automatic. if its a site ive logged into before, auto-login when i visit it next.
- [02:52:14] <GabeW>
well, thats something the site has to do with cookies
- [02:52:41] <Melvster>
yes many sites do this already
- [02:52:46] <Melvster>
i think jyte is one
- [02:53:02] <don-o>
ff or an extension could look for the openid login field and in addition to populating the field, it submits the field.
- [02:53:03] <GabeW>
actually, you could mark a form input with a attribute marking it as the openid input form
- [02:53:13] <GabeW>
but
- [02:53:20] <GabeW>
that prevents the user from choosing which identity?
- [02:53:28] <GabeW>
or would ff prompt the user to select an identity?
- [02:53:42] <don-o>
GabeW: true, but im thinking this is for sites where ive logged in before. so it'd use the same identity.
- [02:53:43] <GabeW>
symantec has something like this
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- [02:54:14] <don-o>
i meant to say 'submits the form'.
- [02:54:27] <Melvster>
it cant submit the form
- [02:54:45] <Melvster>
because you will be redirected
- [02:55:41] <GabeW>
thats not really a problem - it *is* a jarring user experience
- [02:55:50] <GabeW>
imagine typing in jyte.com and getting your OP to show up
- [02:57:23] <don-o>
if you were logged in, the ID provider would send you back right away.
- [02:57:40] <don-o>
assuming the 'which profile do you want' stuff was out ofthe way :)
- [02:57:52] <don-o>
but again this is for sites where ive done that dance once.
- [02:58:09] <GabeW>
you know whats really disturbing
- [02:58:30] <GabeW>
openid is far from the "softest point" of vulnerability
- [02:59:15] <GabeW>
many (most) of these sites use session cookies that are trivial to sniff - cookie-based session hijacking
- [02:59:47] <don-o>
to sniff? or to guess at?
- [02:59:54] <GabeW>
sniff
- [02:59:57] <GabeW>
like at starbucks
- [03:00:13] <GabeW>
or mountain view
- [03:00:44] <don-o>
oh, the wifi angle.
- [03:00:56] <don-o>
so, non-https sites
- [03:00:56] <GabeW>
heh
- [03:00:57] <GabeW>
yah
- [03:01:11] <GabeW>
which is most of them
- [03:03:41] <Melvster>
isnt the data encrypted?
- [03:03:48] <Melvster>
WPA for example
- [03:03:58] <GabeW>
sure, if it is
- [03:04:00] <GabeW>
not in starbucks
- [03:04:02] <GabeW>
not in muni wifi
- [03:07:33] <Melvster>
people will have to protect their digital idenities
- [03:07:47] <Melvster>
just like you keep your passport safe when you go out
- [03:09:59] <GabeW>
its like going to a hotel and having to present your credit card and ID to the front desk and then them unlocking the hotel room for anyone to walk in to
- [03:10:13] <GabeW>
officially, its your room, according to the hotel
- [03:10:17] <GabeW>
but anyone can walk in and use it
- [03:10:25] <GabeW>
nobody is really "stealing" your identity
- [03:10:34] <GabeW>
except as with respect to that hotel room
- [03:13:05] <Melvster>
depends if they clear out the mini bar :)
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- [03:17:15] <GabeW>
then they are just stealing booze
- [03:18:27] <Melvster>
depends on the site i guess, but sites of the future will be more closely connected than today
- [03:20:43] <Melvster>
people are going to have to start taking seriously protecting their identities
- [03:21:44] <Melvster>
i think there will be a number of services that spring up to help with this
- [03:27:48] <GabeW>
woops
- [03:27:55] <GabeW>
what would those do exactly?
- [03:28:10] <Melvster>
too early to say
- [03:28:38] <Melvster>
but where there's a need, normally a solution will spring up :)
- [03:29:05] <Melvster>
maybe helping to protect your communications, or your pc, or your signon with tokens etc.
- [03:29:16] <GabeW>
yah
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- [04:37:35] <SignpostMarv>
Has everyone listened to the interview Simon Willison did with the BBC ?
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- [04:59:14] <Melvster>
what interview?
- [05:06:54] <SignpostMarv>
http://simonwillison.net/2007/Oct/1/bbc/
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- [12:26:45] <jibot>
chowells79 is yet another Janrain idler.
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- [13:56:08] <trel1023>
bloglines announces openid support
- [13:57:09] <idnar>
ooooh
- [13:57:21] <idnar>
got a URL?
- [13:57:41] <trel1023>
http://www.bloglines.com/about/news#147
- [13:58:10] <trel1023>
investigating oauth as well
- [14:18:08] <Melvster>
cool
- [14:19:31] <Melvster>
a freind of mine was asking for a blog site, which big ones are fully openid enabled?
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- [14:54:10] <Melvster>
couldnt load the bbc page, but screencast is here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7463164786703060643
- [14:54:34] <trel1023>
seeing openid based spam comments on your blog?
- [14:54:35] <trel1023>
read this
- [14:54:36] <trel1023>
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/202
- [14:54:43] <trel1023>
whitelist based FOAF solution
- [14:55:19] <keturn>
neat.
- [14:55:23] <Melvster>
smart
- [14:55:39] <Melvster>
but i think we're going to have to go the spamassasin route
- [14:55:45] <Melvster>
... eventually
- [15:02:23] <Melvster>
i would if we could write an extension for spam assassin for openid?
- [15:02:43] <Melvster>
e.g. for blog spam forum spam etc.
- [15:02:52] <Melvster>
but based on openid as the indent
- [15:03:11] <trel1023>
should just be a parallel check
- [15:03:14] <keturn>
what is the spamassasin route, exactly?
- [15:03:19] <trel1023>
one for the content of the message - spamassassin
- [15:03:27] <trel1023>
and one for the author/openid
- [15:03:54] <trel1023>
solve small problems in one place - combine them later
- [15:04:23] <Melvster>
it does an analysis of the text and the sender and gives it a score based on a number of factors such as bayseian analysis, it can also be trained and can learn, its open source and extensible
- [15:05:25] <Melvster>
(bayesian)
- [15:05:41] <keturn>
right, but as trel1023 says, most of that is not at all openid-specific
- [15:07:02] <Melvster>
but spam is an issue for any digital identity system
- [15:07:49] <Melvster>
given you can create open ids en masse, and what you can do with them, it's going to become something that openid consumers have to deal with
- [15:08:50] <trel1023>
and anonymous, never-auth'd openids
- [15:09:15] <trel1023>
you create a magic privileged door into your app - and the spammers will walk right through
- [15:09:20] <trel1023>
privileged :)
- [15:10:20] <digitalspaghetti>
hey trel1023, how's it going?
- [15:10:41] <trel1023>
rolling along...
- [15:10:52] <trel1023>
always working on the list that's never done
- [15:11:00] <keturn>
but this is not any different than the situation before OpenID. all the same problems and solutions apply. OpenID just gives you an identifier you can build more whitelists with. (i.e. you could query LJ and whitelist all your friends-of-friends)
- [15:11:28] <digitalspaghetti>
i know how it feels :) I'm thinking how I can implement OpenID, and then MicroID into my new app (shamess plug: http://pastemonkey.org)
- [15:11:42] <digitalspaghetti>
although thats low on the list just now
- [15:12:57] <Melvster>
cute, you've improved the pastebin i see
- [15:15:35] <Melvster>
i guess use the php consumer?
- [15:15:41] <digitalspaghetti>
GeSHi, yea
- [15:17:11] <Melvster>
http://www.plaxo.com/api/openid_recipe
- [15:17:14] <Melvster>
how about that?
- [15:17:42] <Melvster>
or maybe the book?
- [15:17:45] <Melvster>
http://www.openidbook.com/
- [15:17:45] <trel1023>
it's good - joseph is a good guy - helped him get that ready at IIW last year
- [15:17:58] <trel1023>
er, earlier this year
- [15:18:06] <Melvster>
cool
- [15:18:30] <digitalspaghetti>
ooh, nice tutorial there. I haven't implemented user accounts yet, but that looks like a good tutorial to follow
- [15:19:00] <trel1023>
and it covers some of the basics with regards to multiple openids per account
- [15:19:01] * cote (n=cote@wsip-70-165-207-230.lv.lv.cox.net) has joined #openid
- [15:19:15] <Melvster>
true that's tricky
- [15:19:43] <Melvster>
im wanted to try and implement it for phpbb but some other guys are doing it already, but not yet released
- [15:20:04] <Melvster>
hard to know whether to wait or just try it yourself
- [15:20:21] <Melvster>
oh make sure you get that latest janrain library too 1.2.3
- [15:20:42] <Melvster>
make sure you get a fresh copy of the tarball
- [15:22:29] <digitalspaghetti>
should i not start suppoting 2.x.x?
- [15:22:48] <Melvster>
oh yes, i guess
- [15:22:51] <Melvster>
but it's only RC
- [15:23:22] <Melvster>
i used 1.2.3 as it is relatively stable
- [15:23:45] <Melvster>
will try and get 2 working at some stage
- [15:26:15] <Melvster>
another option is to use WPMU and to give all of your users a blog
- [15:26:24] <Melvster>
then add the openid plugin
- [15:26:41] <digitalspaghetti>
WPMU?
- [15:26:48] <Melvster>
wordpress multi user
- [15:27:01] <Melvster>
its what wordpress.com runs
- [15:28:15] <trel1023>
a variant of it
- [15:28:49] <digitalspaghetti>
aww, i'm not gonna bother with wordpress
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- [15:52:38] <keturn>
digitalspaghetti: I'd say if you're writing new stuff now, go ahead and grab the 2.x lib.
- [15:52:55] <don-o>
i got a response from Justin Dolske, FF3 dev.
- [15:53:24] <don-o>
"it wasn't clear exactly what this
- [15:53:26] <don-o>
should entail, and if it was really something needed in Firefox 3 now"
- [15:55:37] <Melvster>
cool
- [15:56:23] <Melvster>
pity google dont use openid or i think they could add some influence
- [15:57:14] <don-o>
i think single signon isnt ready yet for there to be an obvious path for the FF3 devs.
- [15:57:35] <idnar>
I don't really see what FF3 would do with OpenID
- [15:57:36] <don-o>
especially when they were first thinking about SSO. openid 2.0 wasnt near completion
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- [15:57:57] <don-o>
cardspace was still obscure (IMHO)
- [15:58:19] <digitalspaghetti>
thx keturn, i've grabbed both anyway
- [15:58:22] <don-o>
idnar: well at the least id like it to manage a list of my openIDs and know when a website was presenting an openid login form
- [15:58:59] <don-o>
i think FF plugins will go a long way towards experimenting with what functionality is actually useful
- [15:59:42] <Melvster>
i think one of the most important aspect of ff3 supporting openid is that it brings extra awareness to openstandards
- [15:59:48] <don-o>
personally, i want a linux-app that does cardspace identity selection. (assuming cardspace is a non-patent encumbered standard)
- [16:00:01] <Melvster>
i guess people can write an openid addon
- [16:00:06] <Melvster>
but it would be nice if it was core
- [16:00:15] <don-o>
Melvster: yeah that would have been huge.
- [16:00:56] * cote (n=cote@wsip-68-110-33-195.lv.lv.cox.net) Quit (Client Quit)
- [16:02:29] <trel1023>
cardspace has been implemented in linux
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- [16:02:37] <trel1023>
bandit i think has something
- [16:03:54] <trel1023>
ah, higgins
- [16:03:54] <trel1023>
http://www.eclipse.org/higgins/downloads.php
- [16:04:19] <trel1023>
http://www.bandit-project.org/index.php/Identity_Selector_Service_Download
- [16:05:34] <Melvster>
re: firefox, has anyone used this? http://simile.mit.edu/wiki/Appalachian
- [16:05:41] <trel1023>
i have
- [16:05:52] <trel1023>
works as advertised,
- [16:06:16] <trel1023>
more of a discovery tool though - limited in what it helps you actually do
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- [16:12:18] <Melvster>
doesnt seem to work for me
- [16:12:28] <Melvster>
i click on manage open ids and it doesnt do anything...
- [16:13:05] <Melvster>
add openid has no function it seems
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- [16:18:16] <Melvster>
how about sxipper?
- [16:20:22] <Melvster>
hmm just tried it ...
- [16:20:59] * cote (n=cote@wsip-68-110-33-195.lv.lv.cox.net) Quit ()
- [16:22:24] <Melvster>
seemed pretty heavily linked to sxipper.com but manages your openids reasonably well, maybe firefox needs something like this?
- [16:27:01] <trel1023>
sxipper derives its power from user-created mappings being sent back to central site at sxipper
- [16:29:19] <Melvster>
yeah i kind of was a bit concerned about privacy
- [16:34:09] <Melvster>
nice interface tho'
- [16:34:52] <don-o>
trel1023: yeah i was looking at that yesterday. its hard to determine just how far along it is, what standards its using, how active the project is, etc.
- [16:35:57] <trel1023>
sxipper?
- [16:36:01] <trel1023>
it's run by sxip
- [16:37:23] * don-o tries Appalachain
- [16:39:09] <don-o>
i got the same result that Melvster got. It looks like its 25% implemented. Nice website though.
- [16:39:43] <don-o>
control-alt-shift-A lol
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- [16:53:28] <_keturn>
I'm a little regretful that I didn't make it to "sxip's hour of charm" while I was out in Boston
- [16:54:29] <openid_pibb>
<cygnus> yikes
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- [18:14:44] <jibot>
marclaporte is Marc Laporte from Tiki CMS/Groupware
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- [21:28:30] <jibot>
marclaporte is Marc Laporte from Tiki CMS/Groupware
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