IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-10-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

[00:01:26] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
[00:01:27] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[00:47:10] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[01:41:26] <SignpostMarv> Tantek: you keep coming back to hCards. This is just about standalone links
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[01:49:29] <SignpostMarv> using class="natural" to explicitly state the href is a natural person, class="virtual" to explictly state the href is a virtual person, class="fictional" to explicitlly state that the href is a fictional person as well as class="fictional natural" and class="fictional virtual"
[01:51:20] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
[01:51:52] <factoryjoe> http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/10/29/internet-explorer-80-will-support-microformats/
[01:52:17] <SignpostMarv> is that IE 8.0 or IE 80 ? :D
[01:53:27] <factoryjoe> heh
[01:57:36] <cgriego> I'm working on a Microformats bundle for TextMate. http://vivalaweb.info/temp/tm-hcard.png
[01:58:48] <cgriego> I've been waiting on the new dialog feature before starting.
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[01:59:14] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
[02:11:02] * tantek (n=tantek@c-67-169-22-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[02:11:02] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[02:21:05] <SignpostMarv> since the spec does not state that symetric/inverse-type relationships MUST have a reciprocal link, it is unreasonable to assume that a parser would be jumping about all over the internet following each and every XFN-enabled link it comes across looking for hCards
[02:23:55] <SignpostMarv> aside from them being seperate, but related microformats that is
[02:24:28] <tantek> depends on the application
[02:24:40] <tantek> saying "it is unreasonable" in such a general statement is itself unreasonable
[02:24:57] <tantek> because it depends on the purpose of the application/parser
[02:25:27] <tantek> the reason we keep coming back to hCards is because the properties you are talking about - avatar etc. - are much more like addresses than identities
[02:25:58] <SignpostMarv> It is unreasonable because people will not always agree on the context of a relationship, or agree on/be aware of a relationship existing
[02:26:28] <SignpostMarv> the properties i am talking about are "natural", "virtual", "fictional"
[02:27:13] <tantek> those are not properties - those are simple tags
[02:27:34] <SignpostMarv> types of person
[02:27:36] <tantek> you can tag an hCard with such keywords simply by using the CATEGORIES feature which is embodied in the "category" property
[02:27:50] <tantek> they are not types - they are merely labels that *you* are attaching
[02:28:22] <SignpostMarv> again, you assume there is an hCard in the document.
[02:28:37] <tantek> if you are marking up a person, then yes, there is an hCard
[02:28:40] <tantek> otherwise don't bother
[02:28:52] * iwaim_g (n=iwaim_g@gnulinux.good-day.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[02:28:58] <SignpostMarv> XFN is marking up relationships between people, not the people themselves
[02:29:27] <tantek> yes that is true - but you are not talking about relationships between people, you are talking about properties of people
[02:29:35] <tantek> thus XFN is the wrong tool for the job
[02:29:36] <SignpostMarv> Unless I missed something, I do not see in the spec that the linked document MUST contain an hCard
[02:30:38] <tantek> perhaps you should start by defining what existing publishing problem you are trying to solve, because it sounds like you may have some (possibly artificial) unspoken constraints in mind
[02:31:12] <SignpostMarv> solving the limitation of XFN to refer only to natural persons
[02:31:45] <tantek> nope, that's not a problem definition, because you are assuming a tool
[02:31:51] <tantek> try to define your problem without assuming XFN
[02:31:57] <tantek> if you can't do that, then you have too many assumptions
[02:32:21] <tantek> start with some URLs to real world examples of what you are talking about
[02:32:53] <tantek> I think part of the problem is that the discussion has been too abstract so far - so make it concrete with an actual URL with actual content that you are trying to mark up
[02:33:39] <SignpostMarv> the relationships between these people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_characters
[02:35:26] <tantek> that's just a list of individuals that have a common property, that of being "fictional" - there is no relationship between/among the individuals listed at least on that page
[02:36:57] <SignpostMarv> the articles on those fictional people will likely contain links to other fictional people
[02:37:20] * SignpostMarv hates to bring the same limited examples up again, but points Tantek at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_%28The_Matrix%29
[02:37:52] <SignpostMarv> brb
[02:40:48] * SignpostMarv is back
[02:42:32] <SignpostMarv> while a document containing an hCard on a fictional person could be use categories/tags to indicate that is a fictional person, there is no way (on a code level) to tell whether a person is fictional, virtual or natural, since you cannot rely on the existance of, or accurate/correct contents of an hCard in the linked document
[02:44:57] <SignpostMarv> there's also the technical consideration of whether a relationship should be considered to exist if the linked document doesn't (404- temporary or otherwise)
[02:45:07] <factoryjoe> cgriego: have you seen the new textmate dialog stuff?
[02:45:13] <factoryjoe> (oops, sorry to butt in(
[02:45:35] <SignpostMarv> don't worry, there were several multi-hour gaps in yesterday's discussion :-D
[02:45:45] <factoryjoe> heh
[02:45:56] <factoryjoe> tantek: did you see my post(s)?
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[02:50:39] <tantek_> regarding the Category:Fictional_characters page: hat's just a list of individuals that have a common property, that of being "fictional" - there is no relationship between/among the individuals listed at least on that page
[02:50:49] <tantek_> if you want to tag an individual's hCard as "fictional" you could do so with <a class="category" rel="tag" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional">fictional</a>
[02:51:17] <SignpostMarv> and what about the links between the people........
[02:51:27] <tantek_> SignpostMarv sadi: "while a document containing an hCard on a fictional person could be use categories/tags to indicate that is a fictional person" - precisely.
[02:52:25] <SignpostMarv> there is no way (on a code level) to tell whether a person is fictional, virtual or natural, since you cannot rely on the existance of, or accurate/correct contents of an hCard in the linked document
[02:52:35] <tantek_> and re: "cannot rely on the existance of, or accurate/correct contents of an hCard in the linked document" - you can simply markup the link itself as a tagged hCard
[02:52:41] <tantek_> e.g. like hCards in blogrolls
[02:52:48] <tantek_> see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples
[02:53:28] <tantek_> you can also use xFolk to do link tagging
[02:53:48] <tantek_> thus you could use xFolk to tag some URL as "fictional" if you wished to do so
[02:54:04] <tantek_> if you don't control or can't depend on the destination of the link
[02:54:22] <tantek_> the point is, "virtualness" or "fictionality" is not a relationship
[02:54:28] <tantek_> it is simply an attribute
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[02:55:29] <SignpostMarv> which is why i was suggesting it be a value of the class attribute in an anchor tag that uses XFN instead of using rel....
[02:55:41] <tantek> but there is no reason to reinvent xFolk
[02:55:45] <tantek> just use xFolk
[02:55:55] <tantek> and don't put data in the class attribute - that's another anti-pattern
[02:56:06] <tantek> keyword tags are data
[02:56:55] <tantek> facotryjoe, that explorer/microformats mashup logo is hilarious
[02:57:23] <SignpostMarv> could ya paste an example of what you're propsing please ? I've still got two CDs left running on FLAC so the reaction time of Firefox is interefering with browsing
[02:58:28] <tantek> Marv, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/xfolk
[02:58:43] <factoryjoe> tantek: ;)
[02:58:44] <factoryjoe> thanks
[02:58:57] * SignpostMarv repeats " I've still got two CDs left running on FLAC so the reaction time of Firefox is interefering with browsing"
[02:59:28] <tantek> sounds like you should get a computer with a real OS that can handle user-centric preemptive multithreading
[02:59:31] <tantek> ;)
[02:59:45] <tantek> or perhaps a 2nd computer ;)
[03:00:03] <SignpostMarv> i have three, one is loud, one is dead, one is the one i'm using
[03:00:33] <SignpostMarv> (the dead one is a mac, the loud one can be used for any OS, it's just REALLY loud)
[03:02:27] * SignpostMarv isn't sure whether to switch to Mac or Linux or brand X
[03:03:57] * SignpostMarv has managed to read over xFolk example and is formulating an idea of what he thinks Tantek means
[03:03:59] <tantek> Marv, we can continue the discussion when you have had a chance to read up on xFolk
[03:04:03] <tantek> ah good
[03:04:25] <tantek> we could probably use an xfolk creator - who's up for writing one?
[03:04:49] <tantek> hint: you could probably write one pretty easily by subsetting the hReview creator and renaming a few strings
[03:04:54] <SignpostMarv> we could use a nested microformats creator
[03:06:25] <tantek> factoryjoe, that zdnet post ( http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=62 ) is quite interesting - I knew Chris was at the Ajax experience conference but had no idea he'd be talking about microformats - pretty cool
[03:06:40] <factoryjoe> i know, eh/
[03:06:50] <factoryjoe> i mean, if that's not commitment/confirmation, i don't know what is
[03:07:02] <factoryjoe> + IE 8 in 12-15 months? (i'll see it when i believe it)
[03:07:18] <tantek> well certainly it can at least be considered to be positive sounding
[03:08:17] <factoryjoe> well, as i pointed out -- we have something to point to in terms of consumers
[03:08:23] <factoryjoe> (of microformats...)
[03:08:58] <tantek> clearly the race is on between Flock, Firefox, and IE to see who will be the first to implement and *ship* decent integrated UI support for microformats in the browser.
[03:09:04] <tantek> a very good race to see happening ;)
[03:09:08] <factoryjoe> agreed
[03:09:14] <factoryjoe> the new browser wars will be a positive thing
[03:09:21] <factoryjoe> yakk: how's mF coming in Flock?
[03:11:25] <SignpostMarv> sticking with the Neo wikipedia entry example: <span class="xfolkentry"><a class="taggedlink" rel="tag friend met sweetheart" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_%28The_Matrix%29">Trinity</a> <span class="description"><a rel="tag" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_character">Fictional character</a></span></span>
[03:11:41] <SignpostMarv> as opposed to the standard result of [[Trinity (The Matrix)]]
[03:13:44] <tantek> yes - you could even omit the span class="description" markup
[03:13:58] <factoryjoe> tantek: first comment on that mF icon is ironically from Chris Wilson himself!
[03:14:04] <tantek> I saw that!
[03:14:11] <factoryjoe> http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/283007494/#comment72157594350973751
[03:14:13] <factoryjoe> :D
[03:14:53] <tantek> Marv, in this case there is no need to use the xFolk technique since the two links are between wikipedia pages and you can be reasonably sure that you can edit the page itself to contain an hCard which tags the individual as "fictional" rather than having publish a 3rd party link tag via xFolk.
[03:15:08] <tantek> in fact, Wikipedia's "categories" are essentially tags themselves already
[03:15:37] <tantek> all you have to do is add some category/rel-tag markup around them and make sure they are inside the hCard that represents the individual for whom the page is for
[03:16:04] <tantek> are there any non-Wikipedia real world examples you are trying to markup?
[03:16:26] <SignpostMarv> well yes, but i thought it'd be a bit dumb to use a service i'm developing as an example
[03:17:25] * SignpostMarv has finally managed to rip all 116 of his CDs to chained Ogg FLAC files
[03:19:01] <SignpostMarv> using the reciprocal reliance model, you also avoid the issue of creating invalid XFN values in cases such as the Torley factor
[03:19:14] <SignpostMarv> e.g. rel="me child"
[03:20:42] <SignpostMarv> Torley Wong > Torley Linden = rel="child" + xfolk markup to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_%28Second_Life%29 , Torley Linden > Torley Wong = rel="me" w/no extra xfolk
[03:20:52] <tantek> yes that would be a contradiction - either a link is to another facet of yourself or it is to your child, not both
[03:21:18] <tantek> or it can be neither of those as well of course
[03:21:50] <SignpostMarv> one of the things Second Life user data can indicate is alts and account holders
[03:21:59] <tantek> an avatar you create is no more your child than an email address you create
[03:22:23] <SignpostMarv> the virtual person is the child, even though it's just an avatar of yourself
[03:22:24] <tantek> Marv - where are the public URLs for that Second Life user data?
[03:22:36] <tantek> if it is not on the public Web, it is irrelevant for our research for creating microformats
[03:23:00] <SignpostMarv> you have to dive in with script-fu to get them out
[03:23:02] <tantek> no the virtual person is not a child of yourself just like an artist's sculpture is not a child of the artist
[03:23:40] <SignpostMarv> read: http://torley.com/a-biography-of-torley/
[03:25:15] <tantek> I think we can safely ignore people pretending to be their own offspring - I'm not sure we need to worry about marking up assertions which are disconnects from reality.
[03:25:44] <tantek> until someone wants to start microformats for psychology of course, but no one has asked for that yet
[03:26:17] <SignpostMarv> you're looking at it from the wrong point of view tantek
[03:26:44] <factoryjoe> microformats looks to support 80-20 use cases
[03:26:59] <factoryjoe> that is, we tackle what 80% of the public is likely to do
[03:27:05] <tantek> Marv, if reality is the wrong point of view, then you might be in the wrong channel ;)
[03:27:13] <factoryjoe> and, furthermore, that is already exhibited in the wild
[03:27:24] <factoryjoe> tantek, got anymore red pills?
[03:28:04] <SignpostMarv> so are you trying to say that fictional and virtual relationships aren't deserving of microformats treatment ?
[03:28:14] <SignpostMarv> ^fictional and virtual persons*
[03:28:16] <factoryjoe> it isn't a matter of deserving
[03:28:19] <tantek> not sure that red pills help in the case of individuals who willingly take blue pills in order to get back into an illusion
[03:28:21] <factoryjoe> it's a matter of behavior
[03:28:33] <factoryjoe> good point
[03:29:02] <factoryjoe> SignpostMarv: if you can document a number of examples in the wild and built up your research, you'll have just as a good a chance as any other effort
[03:29:14] <tantek> no Marv, I'm saying that perspectives which are disconnected from reality, e.g. pretending to your own child, are not deserving of microformats
[03:29:15] * SignpostMarv can't help it if he can see reality from both sides of the looking glass
[03:29:16] <factoryjoe> microformats are dictated by adoption
[03:29:43] <tantek> pretending to be your own child isn't reality Marv - it's a hallucination
[03:30:02] <tantek> or rather, a self-deception
[03:30:48] <SignpostMarv> Torley Wong is not pretending to be his own child, he is presenting Torley Linden as what his daughter would be like
[03:30:59] <SignpostMarv> which technically makes it a fictional person, not a virtual one
[03:31:37] <factoryjoe> but this daughter only exists in a virtual world?
[03:31:45] <factoryjoe> fabricated by pixels and code?
[03:32:06] <SignpostMarv> just as a character in a book only exists in print, fabricated by ink
[03:32:29] <factoryjoe> we've found hypertext, like wikipedians, very difficult to link to
[03:32:31] <factoryjoe> err
[03:32:43] <factoryjoe> books -- difficult to link to from the virtual world
[03:32:58] <SignpostMarv> harvard referencing system
[03:33:41] <factoryjoe> hmm
[03:33:50] <factoryjoe> i guess we could use SSN then
[03:35:19] <tantek> Marv, then in that case, rel="me" is incorrect
[03:35:27] <tantek> for the link to that profile/avatar
[03:35:37] <SignpostMarv> which i've already pointed out
[03:35:45] <tantek> even perhaps rel="child" is incorrect
[03:35:50] <tantek> because it is not his child
[03:36:01] <tantek> just like a painting of his child would not be his child
[03:36:06] <SignpostMarv> the virtual person is his child
[03:36:06] <tantek> even if he painted it
[03:36:11] <tantek> no it is not
[03:36:11] <SignpostMarv> a painting is not a virtual person
[03:36:16] <tantek> just like the painting is not
[03:36:20] <tantek> they are the same thing
[03:36:25] <tantek> both human create artifacts
[03:36:27] <SignpostMarv> the painting is a representation of a person
[03:36:45] <tantek> and you said: n as what his daughter would be like
[03:36:55] <tantek> that's also a representation of a person
[03:36:57] <SignpostMarv> the avatar is a representation of a person
[03:36:59] <tantek> rather than a person
[03:37:06] <SignpostMarv> the Resident is a virtual person
[03:37:08] <tantek> right, so like a painting is not an actual person
[03:37:55] <SignpostMarv> your body is not you, you are your conciousness
[03:38:17] <factoryjoe> http://www.tcf.ua.edu/Classes/Jbutler/T340/TreasonOfImagesShadow.jpg
[03:38:25] <SignpostMarv> it is a "manifestation" of you
[03:39:08] <tantek> SignpostMarv - that's a matter of philosophical debate whether your body is not you, you are your conciousness
[03:39:15] <tantek> legally/practically speaking - your body is you
[03:39:33] <SignpostMarv> is your website you ?
[03:39:44] <tantek> so for practical purposes it is a waste of time to pretend your body is not you
[03:39:59] <tantek> is your website considered legally/practically you?
[03:40:19] <factoryjoe> technically speaking, i think you are liable for it
[03:40:48] <tantek> factoryjoe, when did you get a law degree - when i wasn't looking? ;)
[03:41:04] <factoryjoe> i've been busy lately, what can i say?
[03:41:08] <factoryjoe> :P
[03:41:18] <tantek> figures - there is no limit to factoryjoe's powers of accomplishment.
[03:41:30] <factoryjoe> well, for example, if you collect information from people
[03:41:32] <factoryjoe> you're liable for that data
[03:41:52] <factoryjoe> or, what if i publish links to DeCSS on my blog with instructions for circumventing DRM?
[03:41:58] * tantek advises factoryjoe against giving legal advice as a non-lawyer
[03:41:59] <factoryjoe> besides the matter of free speech
[03:42:06] <factoryjoe> IANAL
[03:42:12] <factoryjoe> agreed
[03:42:17] <tantek> it's pointless to debate it, since IANAL either
[03:42:19] * factoryjoe retires to the study
[03:42:22] <SignpostMarv> the question is whether or not a website can be considered "you" as a represetnation of "you"
[03:42:37] <SignpostMarv> which seems to be the behaviour that XFN dictates
[03:43:02] <factoryjoe> rel=me should be a tool for representing your facets online
[03:43:17] <tantek> yes, XFN uses people's websites as proxies for them, because it followed existing linking behavior in blogrolls, which was to use people's websites as proxies for them
[03:44:01] <tantek> rel="me" is for linking between facets of the same person, not for linking to creations of art in general etc.
[03:44:11] <SignpostMarv> and we've established that documents can serve as proxies for fictional people with the inclusion of hCard in the Neo article
[03:44:44] <tantek> actually we have not
[03:44:52] <tantek> since that document has-a hCard
[03:44:55] <tantek> rather than is-a
[03:44:59] <tantek> if you want to be technical about it
[03:45:11] <tantek> no proxiness has been established
[03:45:16] <tantek> at least not in Wikipedia
[03:45:21] <SignpostMarv> 6 and 2 3's
[03:45:43] <tantek> no Marv, if you don't know the difference between has-a and is-a, then please study up on that
[03:46:42] <SignpostMarv> the article is about a virtual person, it has an hCard, which means people can use that wiki article as a proxy for the fictional person if they choose to
[03:48:48] <SignpostMarv> which they would do if they were making a blog post about Neo and linked the "Neo" text to the wiki article
[03:49:31] <tantek> sounds like a lot of ifs and theoreticals Marv - not a very solid foundation to build any kind of argument
[03:49:43] <SignpostMarv> Keanu Reeves was pretending to be Neo, so should the hCard be stripped from the document because you seem to think that fictional persons cannot "exist" as microformats see them
[03:49:45] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit ("Want lisppaste4 in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net.")
[03:50:00] <tantek> I think you need to stick to finding real world practical examples that exemplify the publishing behavior you are trying to model
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[03:50:17] <tantek> rather than a hybrid of some real world example data on the web and a bunch of theoretical assertions on top of that
[03:51:18] <tantek> if you are unable to find such real world examples that exemplify the publishing behavior you are trying to model without a bunch of theoretical assertions, then there is definitely insufficient real world behavior for the publishing behavior you are trying to model
[03:52:13] <tantek> and I didn't say you couldn't use hCard to markup the name etc. of a fictional person
[03:52:41] <SignpostMarv> but you said you shouldn't use XFN to mark up the relationship between a natural and fictional person
[03:53:43] <tantek> I think you need to also spend some time documenting (perhaps in a blog post) the exact problem you are trying to solve, because you bounce between the relationship between a person and the works they create, or their online facets of identity, and this debate about can you use hCard to model fictional people. It doesn't sound like you have a well-defined problem to solve. So define somewhere and just talk about that problem, rat
[03:55:19] <tantek> start with principle #1
[03:55:20] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#the_microformats_principles
[03:55:25] <tantek> solve a specific problem
[03:55:51] <tantek> if you can't document the specific problem and find yourself trying to solve multiple problems simultaneously, you need to work more on narrowing the scope of what you are trying to do
[03:57:27] <SignpostMarv> it's a profile page (hCard) with a list of relationships between a virtual or fictional person and a virtual, fictional or natural person
[03:57:36] <SignpostMarv> ^ XFN + xFolk *
[03:58:33] <tantek> no see above
[03:58:37] <tantek> define your problem without using tools
[03:58:49] <tantek> you have to define the problem without jumping to the conclusion
[03:58:56] <SignpostMarv> same sentence without mentioning microformats*
[03:59:20] <tantek> now find real world examples that exemplify the data described in the problem
[03:59:51] <SignpostMarv> http://slprofiles.com/slprofiles.asp?id=3448
[03:59:52] <tantek> the wikipedia Neo example did not exemplify all the data you listed in your new problem statement
[04:00:35] <tantek> bbiab
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[04:01:14] <SignpostMarv> http://slprofiles.com/secondlifeprofiles.asp for more
[04:13:07] <cgriego> factoryjoe: http://vivalaweb.info/temp/tm-hcard.png is built with tm_dialog (and I have all the script-level work still left to do)
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[04:13:14] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[04:13:40] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
[04:14:14] <factoryjoe> cgriego: ha, nice!
[04:14:18] <factoryjoe> btw
[04:14:32] <factoryjoe> any thoughts to mirror the address book ui?
[04:28:40] <cgriego> factoryjoe: that'll take more Interface Builder super powers than I have (i.e. I have none). My first priority is to put together something that's good enough--on par with current creator interfaces--and then start looking at richer interfaces and system integration.
[04:29:05] <factoryjoe> yup
[04:29:06] <factoryjoe> nice
[04:29:18] <factoryjoe> have you seen webkit.pbwiki.com?
[04:31:10] <cgriego> hmm, no I haven't
[04:32:03] <factoryjoe> heh, well go check it out
[04:32:04] <factoryjoe> ;)
[04:35:05] <cgriego> looks neat
[04:36:49] <cgriego> was there an idea behind pointing it out?
[04:37:05] <cgriego> btw, a more canonical screenshot url: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cgriego/283178092/
[04:37:41] <factoryjoe> webkit.pbwiki.com/GreaseKit
[04:37:47] <factoryjoe> check that out
[04:37:51] <factoryjoe> + check this out
[04:38:07] <factoryjoe> http://www.flickr.com/photos/agentdero/276851509/
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[04:48:22] <cgriego> cool stuff
[04:50:41] <factoryjoe> thx
[04:56:31] <Frederic> morning
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[07:27:11] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[08:16:55] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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[08:17:02] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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[08:23:00] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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[09:05:06] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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[09:22:10] * Ashley` is has no understand.
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[09:40:36] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
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[09:50:45] <McNulty> morning
[09:57:45] <mcknut> morning
[09:58:27] <mcknut> didn't get chance to mention on Friday, but I did a new version of tails export using brian's latest XSL (with the CRLF code in) but it still doesn't seem to fix the problem, had to put my JS fix back in
[10:00:20] <McNulty> Didn't fix the line endings problem? hm, weird
[10:00:54] <McNulty> Maybe when saving the file to disk it's line endings are getting mangled.
[10:02:27] * cbarrett is gearing up for a long battle with Chris Messina ;)
[10:04:37] <McNulty> about data storage?
[10:05:11] <cbarrett> Yeah.
[10:05:23] <cbarrett> by "battle" i mean "fun mailing list debate.
[10:05:26] <cbarrett> Since I like Chris.
[10:05:27] <McNulty> aha
[10:05:51] <Ashley`> XHTML _is_ XML, I don't get what he's saying.
[10:06:00] <McNulty> Ashley - yeah so why not use XHTML? ;-)
[10:06:02] <Ashley`> Unless I'm on a completely different tangent.
[10:06:04] <cbarrett> purl.org/NET/ULF/SPEC
[10:06:09] <cbarrett> http://purl.org/NET/ULF/SPEC
[10:06:17] <cbarrett> that's the XML he's talking about
[10:06:47] <McNulty> cbarrett - so I have you to thank for adium?
[10:07:03] <cbarrett> I'm one of the team, yeah :)
[10:07:13] <cbarrett> there are about 5 or 6 of us.
[10:07:24] <McNulty> excellent.. thanks for such a good product :-)
[10:07:35] <McNulty> Is this where I reel off my feature requests?
[10:08:02] <KevinMarks> cbarrett: the point is the HTML logs can be read in any browser, not just something that knows your xml dialect
[10:08:26] <cbarrett> How's that useful, though?
[10:08:31] <McNulty> How is it not?
[10:08:43] <McNulty> Anything that understands XHTML can derive at least some value from it.
[10:08:57] <KevinMarks> everything reads html
[10:09:02] <Ashley`> For the low, low price of a slight markup overhead.
[10:09:04] <McNulty> Whereas if you have a custom XML format, the parser has to understand what the schema means
[10:09:15] <KevinMarks> my phone, my email client, everyone elses ditto
[10:09:48] <cbarrett> There are many, many benefits to our XML format over storing on disk as XHTML. 1) compactness. 2) Much simpler to parser than some of the uF stuff I've seen
[10:10:01] <cbarrett> The value attribute in hCard is a good example.
[10:10:14] <KevinMarks> if you cared about comnpactness, use plaintext
[10:10:20] <cbarrett> We did.
[10:10:23] <cbarrett> It was impossible to parse
[10:10:30] <McNulty> heh
[10:10:36] <KevinMarks> heh
[10:11:01] <cbarrett> then we switched to HTML so we could avoid parsing (
[10:11:06] <KevinMarks> excellent
[10:11:09] <cbarrett> (we'll just display the log in a web view)
[10:11:16] <cbarrett> Unfortunately, it was very, very poorly formed HTML
[10:11:18] <KevinMarks> I have hundreds od thinsg that parse html and display it
[10:11:23] <McNulty> Well, make better HTML ;-)
[10:11:26] <KevinMarks> indeed
[10:11:29] <KevinMarks> we can help
[10:11:32] <cbarrett> We tried that -- the problem was Spotlight being retarded.
[10:11:43] <cbarrett> And the rest of the team being gun shy
[10:11:44] <McNulty> I hadn't realised Spotlight picked up Adium logs
[10:11:49] <cbarrett> It does in .0
[10:11:50] <cbarrett> *1.0
[10:11:54] <McNulty> ah
[10:11:57] <cbarrett> Which will be out $SOON
[10:12:02] <McNulty> fantastic1
[10:12:12] <cbarrett> A lot sooner now that we've gotten our new AIM library to not spawn 1000+ threads
[10:12:16] <cbarrett> :)
[10:12:51] <McNulty> Do you have a feature list? the trac roadmap seems to have an internal server error
[10:12:55] <cbarrett> Trac is down.
[10:13:12] * cbarrett grumbles about the host
[10:13:20] * SignpostMarv forgets what version of adium he has on his iBook
[10:13:33] <cbarrett> 1.0 will have a uch better check for updates system :)
[10:14:01] <McNulty> My #1 feature request is Address Book integration
[10:14:07] <cbarrett> It's lready in there.
[10:14:10] <McNulty> ...
[10:14:10] <cbarrett> advanced prefs.
[10:14:11] <McNulty> WHAT?
[10:14:22] * McNulty wants to go home to his iBook now
[10:14:31] <mcknut> heh
[10:14:40] <KevinMarks> I must admit I still use iChat
[10:14:49] <cbarrett> If you use iChat, get Chax.
[10:14:57] <cbarrett> http://www.ksuther.com/chax/
[10:15:00] <cbarrett> Great hack.
[10:15:00] <KevinMarks> 'cos I liek having av integration and file transfer that just works
[10:15:10] <cbarrett> File Transfer is 100% fixed in 1.0
[10:15:12] <cbarrett> (on AIM)
[10:15:26] <cbarrett> we switched AIM libraries
[10:15:35] <McNulty> I tried iChat but didn't like the hoops I had to go through to get MSN up and running
[10:15:59] <cbarrett> and we're planning on getting A/V too soon -- a retired sw engineer in Utah who used to work on Fire really knows his stuff when it comes to video chat.
[10:16:14] <McNulty> mcknut - I thought of another feature you might want to think about for the Tails thing...
[10:16:29] <KevinMarks> vidoe is easy, audio is hard
[10:16:30] <mcknut> you're just full of feature requests aren't you?
[10:16:32] <mcknut> ;)
[10:16:33] <cbarrett> He's mapped out most of the iChat/AIM video implementation and he's going to be hacking on it.
[10:16:38] <cbarrett> KevinMarks: over AIM?
[10:16:42] <McNulty> mcknut - I'm an ideas man, I don't have the follow-through for real work
[10:16:46] <KevinMarks> the general problem
[10:16:50] <cbarrett> Ah.
[10:17:08] <cbarrett> I'd say they're both pretty tough. What makes you say Audio is harder?
[10:17:08] <KevinMarks> avoiding feedback and echo is hard, and iChat does it really well
[10:17:17] <KevinMarks> I've done both...
[10:17:41] <cbarrett> Ah.
[10:17:42] <KevinMarks> audio needs millisecond accuracy, video needs decisecond
[10:17:43] <cbarrett> Cool.
[10:17:54] <mcknut> McNulty: what's the idea?
[10:18:00] <cbarrett> I'll keep that in mind as we go forward :)
[10:18:31] <cbarrett> KevinMarks: a lot of feedback and echo is a client issue, rather than protocol/compression/signaling, right?
[10:18:41] <KevinMarks> yes
[10:19:16] <cbarrett> k
[10:19:35] <cbarrett> CoreAudio is pretty cool. I should play around with it now, so when it comes time I can step up to the plate.
[10:19:40] <KevinMarks> but get it wrong and it becomes useless, and chokes your bandwidth anyway with ring noise
[10:19:47] <McNulty> mkcnut - oh it was something about how AB imports IM contacts
[10:19:58] <McNulty> It wants them to be in X-AIM: type fields
[10:20:04] <KevinMarks> yes, CoreAudio has nice accuracy and latency
[10:20:21] <McNulty> So maybe a setting in the prefs that lets you choose 'export in non-standard Address Book format' or something
[10:20:36] <McNulty> it's a bit complex though.
[10:21:10] <mcknut> hmm.. yeah
[10:21:24] <cbarrett> If you're using AB.Framework Adium's got a pretty good example if you don't mind the GPL infection.
[10:21:34] * cbarrett $#@%#@! the GPL
[10:21:36] <McNulty> I might have a go at getting the XSL to output in the different format, maybe based on a param
[10:22:02] <McNulty> cbarrett - was that at us?
[10:22:17] <cbarrett> kinda.
[10:22:23] <cbarrett> 04:19 < McNulty> mkcnut - oh it was something about how AB imports IM contacts
[10:22:42] <McNulty> The way Tails works, it saves a .vcf to disk and redirects the browser there
[10:22:45] <cbarrett> ah.
[10:22:46] <McNulty> (I believe)
[10:22:51] <cbarrett> makes sense.
[10:23:04] <McNulty> So you can have Arbitrary Contacts App manage it
[10:23:10] <cbarrett> Yup
[10:23:22] <cbarrett> Also, I don't think you can call out to native code from XUL or Greasemonkey scripts.
[10:23:34] <McNulty> but AB uses custom fields for IM stuff, rather than URLs like hCard does
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[10:28:20] <mcknut> cbarrett: you can run executables from FF extensions, which is what tails export is
[10:28:37] <cbarrett> ah
[10:28:46] <mcknut> McNulty: how about if the XSL just copied the AIM stuff into X- fields, so it was present twice?
[10:29:11] <McNulty> AB actually handles non-HTTP URLs really badly
[10:29:29] <McNulty> And I'd be loathe to have custom fields being put in by default...
[10:29:38] <mcknut> yeah..
[10:29:43] <McNulty> You end up with a 'website' of http://aim:<whatever>
[10:29:57] <mcknut> could definitely be a preference though, that would be fairly simple
[10:30:24] <McNulty> I think you'd need to not have them in as URLs...
[10:30:43] <mcknut> I'd like to have a lot more geo stuff in it too, as I have GPS software on my phone, but there's so many different geo formats you might need to support
[10:31:12] <McNulty> oh, really?
[10:31:37] <McNulty> I thought GEO: in vCard was fairly straightforward.
[10:32:20] <mcknut> the GPS software's not integrated to the phone, it's just a java app, it imports oziexplorer waypoints or kml, so I'd need either of those
[10:32:42] <mcknut> I'd probably just go with kml, as you could have "export/bluetooth" options like there are now, and export would load in google earth
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[10:33:47] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
[10:34:05] <McNulty> mknut - you seen brian suda's Geo->KML stuff?
[10:34:23] * cbarrett wonders how much of a pain it would be to parse something a uF without access to the DOM (i.e. with only SAX or maybe a basic tree parser)
[10:34:57] <mcknut> McNulty: not seen, but have heard of, that's what I'd use
[10:35:25] <McNulty> http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/
[10:35:35] <McNulty> He's got a 'view on google maps' bookmarklet that's pretty cool
[10:35:37] <mcknut> cbarrett: dunno about uF's but I've parsed lots of XML with SAX type stuff, not fun
[10:36:28] <mcknut> McNulty: cool, should be easy to integrate that in tails really, but not sure what the optimum way would be, do I add 2 buttons to vcards that have geo, or make the vcard appear twice (actually, that's not really a big decision I guess, former sounds best)
[10:37:02] <mcknut> and of course it's only useful if people are actually implementing geo
[10:37:17] * SignpostMarv points cbarret in the direction of strpos() and substr() functions
[10:37:39] <mcknut> ooh, string parsing using basic C functions, fun
[10:38:28] <McNulty> mcknut - yeah, the addition of the bluetooth button to Tails made it a little more cluttered... dunno what you'll do when there's Loooads of things a person can do... break it off to a sub-menu?
[10:39:06] <McNulty> mcknut - well geo's in lots of other formats... I dunno how used it is yet though ;-)
[10:39:46] <mcknut> I was worried about how I'd handle multiple output formats, but I suppose shoving that in the preferences menu is best
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[10:43:37] <cbarrett> SAX isn't that bad if you've designed your XML well.
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[10:46:02] <McNulty> mcknut - brief disscussion here http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-07-17#T140108
[10:46:37] <McNulty> including an unfulfilled promise from me to document the AB IM handling
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[10:54:05] <mcknut> hehe
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[11:31:31] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
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[11:31:47] <McNulty> So is it illegal to have block-level elements inside an ADDRESS?
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[11:47:06] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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[12:38:43] <wildfire> does anyone have any examples of a hCard where the physical address is in multiple countries? (i.e. a company with locations around the world)
[12:40:24] * SignpostMarv would've thought that would be three addr blocks in a <<dl>, , or <<ol> depending on context, or three seperate hCards
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[12:45:22] <wildfire> well, I was looking over the vCard -> hCard examples and they seem to have adr blocks with countries delimiters around them (e.g. 3.29.7 )
[12:45:39] <trovster> wildfire: http://www.avf-nexus.com/contact/
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[12:47:59] <wildfire> trovster, thanks - looking
[12:48:11] <trovster> might not be amazing HTML, so beware ;)
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[13:14:09] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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[13:39:57] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[13:56:18] <jibot> raxor is in southern California, near LA
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[14:15:48] <briansuda> hm... anyone know where mfbot when?
[14:16:40] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
[14:16:41] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
[14:21:37] <drewinthehead> is mfbot the wiki bot?
[14:21:51] <McNulty> yeah
[14:22:25] <drewinthehead> note sure who runs that one :(
[14:22:40] <McNulty> RyanKing...
[14:22:54] <kapowaz> do any of the bots let you find out when a user was last seen?
[14:23:14] <McNulty> ?seen kapowaz?
[14:23:18] * briansuda emailed kingryan about it
[14:23:27] <McNulty> kapowaz - I think jibot does
[14:23:56] <drewinthehead> the leave should be in the logs, kapowaz
[14:26:14] <McNulty> cbarrett - on the mailing list when you talk about spotlight/google support are you specificalyl talking about the chat logs?
[14:26:25] <kapowaz> ?seen remi
[14:26:40] <drewinthehead> last seen here, i think http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-10-27#T135341
[14:26:40] <kapowaz> where are the logs kept?
[14:26:46] <kapowaz> aha
[14:26:59] * charles_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[14:27:27] <kapowaz> hmm
[14:27:33] <kapowaz> looking through that lot could take a while
[14:27:50] * charles_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
[14:27:53] <trovster> ctrl+f
[14:28:07] <kapowaz> well there's a single file for each day
[14:28:14] <drewinthehead> that link is to the last sighting i could find, kapowaz
[14:28:22] <drewinthehead> (not that it's really important)
[14:29:09] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[14:29:20] <kapowaz> oh I see
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[14:30:21] <kapowaz> well he's definitely been around recently. I guess I'll have to try and grab him next time he connects
[14:31:25] <kapowaz> out of interest, does anybody know what typeface the microformats logo is set in?
[14:31:44] <kapowaz> the lowercase sans serif type
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[14:35:33] <mcknut> 23:50 -!- remi [i=remi@c66.203.212-11.clta.globetrotter.net] has quit
[14:35:37] <mcknut> (Saturday)
[14:40:30] <cbarrett> McNulty: And email and anything else spotlight can index
[14:40:33] <cbarrett> but mostly about the chat logs
[14:40:40] <cbarrett> hm
[14:40:47] <cbarrett> picoformats are intersting
[14:40:51] <cbarrett> http://microformats.org/wiki/picoformats
[14:43:34] <McNulty> cbarrett - ah right. That would be fantastic.
[14:43:58] <McNulty> iSync<->Google Calendar/contacts would be good too
[14:44:20] <cbarrett> Google Notifier would provide that service.
[14:44:26] <cbarrett> Ping GOOG and ask :)
[14:44:47] <cbarrett> And yeah, if you haven't tried QS yet, DO SO
[14:48:14] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
[14:48:14] <McNulty> Google Notifier doesn't *seem* to do taht...
[14:48:14] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
[14:48:48] <McNulty> It can't be hard for someone like Google to run a SyncML server
[14:49:07] <cbarrett> They don't, but they could.
[14:52:30] <drewinthehead> well, you'd know.
[14:52:33] <drewinthehead> :P
[14:52:41] <cbarrett> I don't work for GOOG.
[14:53:01] <drewinthehead> exactly :)
[14:53:15] <cbarrett> They don't run one because they don't provide iSync integration ;)
[14:53:53] <drewinthehead> but they don't provide iSync integration because they don't run a SyncML server ...
[14:54:25] <drewinthehead> what a tangled web we weave
[14:54:39] <trovster> http://webiweave.com/ ;)
[14:56:12] <cbarrett> Frames!
[14:56:22] <cbarrett> How Web 3.0
[14:56:23] <cbarrett> ;)
[14:56:42] <McNulty> overflow: auto is the new Frames
[14:56:55] <cbarrett> frames are the future overflow: auto
[14:57:15] * cbarrett predicts frames making a big comeback
[14:57:17] <cbarrett> :P
[14:57:34] <McNulty> they have maybe 1 advantage and loads of drawbacks
[14:57:47] <cbarrett> I'm totally not being sarcastic.
[14:57:49] <cbarrett> :P
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[15:00:49] <bergie> I just started working on microformat-enabled CRM stuff
[15:01:08] <bergie> now when you add a person or company into the database it will spider their site and check if there is data it can use
[15:01:09] <cbarrett> customer relationship management?
[15:01:29] <bergie> so if they have hCards for example I could populate persons and contact info automatically
[15:01:48] <bergie> though now it only probes for ICBM coordinate info as I haven't integrated hKit yet
[15:02:12] <bergie> should be anyway quite interesting proof-of-concept for microformat usage
[15:03:09] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[15:03:10] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
[15:03:18] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
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[15:03:50] <McNulty> in hAtom I'm meant to put the author in an ADDRESS, but am I right in thinking that that's not allowed to have block-level children?
[15:04:08] <cbarrett> pnhChris: What does WaSP think about XHTML2 v. HTML5?
[15:04:23] <briansuda> in hAtom ADDRESS is a SHOULD not a MUST
[15:04:28] <pnhChris> i'm still thinking about my morning coffee ;)
[15:04:54] <cbarrett> pnhChris: pff
[15:04:54] <cbarrett> ;)
[15:05:03] <McNulty> briansuda - I don't want to include an author in each entry
[15:05:18] <McNulty> and the optimisation rules only look for the nearest in-parent ADDRESS, I think?
[15:05:25] <McNulty> unless I'm misreading
[15:05:28] <briansuda> right, you SHOULD use an ADDRESS element, but you don't have too.
[15:05:36] <briansuda> you can use the include pattern
[15:05:48] <McNulty> hm.
[15:06:17] <McNulty> hatom2atom doesn't seem to do the include when I tried, I'll play with it a bit more
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[15:10:17] <pnhChris> doesn't vcard author work on any element, or am I mis-remembering my hatom
[15:10:25] <pnhChris> er.. class="vcard author"
[15:10:55] <briansuda> yes, but originally hAtom was mandating ADDRESS
[15:11:01] <McNulty> pnhChris - yeah
[15:11:13] <kapowaz> don't forget your hatom.
[15:11:23] <kapowaz> if it's cold out.
[15:11:37] <McNulty> If an entry doesn't have an author it looks for the nearest parent address@class="author"
[15:11:52] <McNulty> not the nearest @class="author", if you see what I mean
[15:12:13] <kapowaz> have you all read Tim Berners-Lee's post over the weekend concerning the new working group for HTML and web forms?
[15:12:26] <briansuda> there were a few emails on the list about hAtom/ADDRESS issue awhile ago
[15:12:27] <pnhChris> does inside feed or outside make a difference here?
[15:12:41] <briansuda> there might have been a resolution, but it hasn't been implemented yet?
[15:13:01] <pnhChris> because I thought for PNH i had settled on p class="author reviewer hcard"
[15:13:04] <McNulty> I guess include-pattern removes the need for an optimisation like that
[15:13:22] <McNulty> just need inclusion in hatom2atom...
[15:13:23] <pnhChris> though i forget if I just left it that way waiting for my impending (or not) template rebuild
[15:13:51] <trovster> I personally have <div id="branding" class="author reviewer vcard">
[15:14:04] <McNulty> test markup here: http://test.ciaranmcnulty.com/test-blog.php - atom feed works nicely but the page doesn't validate
[15:14:36] <McNulty> hatom spec wording is: " if the Entry Author is missing find the Nearest In Parent <address> element(s) with class name author and that is/are a valid hCard "
[15:15:26] <pnhChris> yeah
[15:15:41] <pnhChris> i may have left PNH as is out of indiffernce / pending changes
[15:15:54] <pnhChris> (to my end, not spec)
[15:16:08] <cbarrett> What does the h in hCard, etc, stand for?
[15:16:11] <McNulty> HTML?
[15:16:15] <McNulty> I ... think
[15:16:35] <briansuda> yeah, HTML
[15:16:48] <trovster> Just wondering why you've not put the <abbr> around the entire date, just the time
[15:16:51] <kapowaz> why is the classname vcard and not hcard, I wonder?
[15:16:59] <kapowaz> I know that the origin was from vcards
[15:17:02] <McNulty> the fields are taken from VCARD
[15:17:06] <kapowaz> yes
[15:17:14] <kapowaz> but given that it's hCard, and not vCard... ?
[15:17:19] <McNulty> and the main wrapper in a vcard is 'BEGIN VCARD'
[15:17:26] <McNulty> so class="vcard"
[15:17:31] <kapowaz> but it's not a vcard :)
[15:17:33] <kapowaz> it's a hCard
[15:17:35] <trovster> I agree that, the HTML version of vcard should be class="hcard"
[15:17:36] <McNulty> hCal has vevent
[15:17:41] <kapowaz> yeah I noticed that too
[15:17:45] <McNulty> and it's not a vevent, it's an 'hCal event'
[15:17:47] <briansuda> well it was only called hCa* after microformats.org was started
[15:17:50] <kapowaz> it's set a precedent which doesn't seem to make much sense
[15:17:57] <briansuda> before that they were just called vcard in html
[15:18:04] <kapowaz> I see
[15:18:26] <Ronnos> it's to make things difficult :)
[15:18:32] <briansuda> it was only after we started in on Reviews that we needed a new name
[15:18:32] <kapowaz> and keep us all on our toes
[15:18:34] <Ronnos> a little web 1.9
[15:18:39] * pnhChris slaps forehead
[15:18:40] <briansuda> hReview and that seems to have caught on
[15:18:48] <McNulty> hAtom gets the idea across well
[15:18:51] <briansuda> xFolk was another idea 'x'Folk
[15:19:00] <pnhChris> i didn't ever push out a version of the PNH templates with hatom at all :P
[15:19:07] <pnhChris> so ignore my rambling
[15:19:08] <pnhChris> ;)
[15:19:10] <McNulty> ah
[15:19:13] <cbarrett> it's quirky
[15:19:24] <cbarrett> "h? hAtom? interesting!"
[15:19:24] <Ronnos> where does the x stands for in xFolk?
[15:19:29] <cbarrett> xtreme.
[15:19:33] <cbarrett> ;)
[15:19:36] <Ronnos> ahaha
[15:19:39] <briansuda> not sure was 'x' stands for... does the spec say?
[15:19:41] <pnhChris> though i do have the p class="author reviewer hcard" and i'd have to look at hReview spec to see what ITS behavior is on the author items
[15:19:48] <McNulty> XHTML maybe?
[15:19:54] <Ronnos> xtra difficult?
[15:19:55] <briansuda> h* seems to have won out, so any new format will probably be h*
[15:19:58] <briansuda> hCite etc
[15:20:04] <cbarrett> yeah
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[15:20:14] <kapowaz> that seems logical
[15:20:36] <cbarrett> Is there any interest in going backwards and standardizing the h?
[15:20:46] <cbarrett> I don't know if that's the right thing to do or not
[15:20:59] <briansuda> not sure, probably not because of so many implementations that already exist
[15:21:09] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[15:21:14] <pnhChris> yeah... hreview spec is worded quite differently then hatom in that it looks for a "reviewer" in the page context before falling back to an address vcard
[15:22:09] <pnhChris> hcard doesn't have that middle "look for author" step
[15:22:10] <McNulty> pnhChris - the more I think about it, the less needed those fallbacks are, once include-pattern is supported
[15:22:14] <pnhChris> er.. hatom
[15:22:25] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("Some Kind of Raid Boss")
[15:22:44] <pnhChris> yes and no
[15:23:22] <pnhChris> i'd prefer not to pepper my markup with a bunch of empty just-for-include-pattern elements if the sematics of the page cover it jsut as well
[15:23:53] <McNulty> That's a point. Also the exact semantics of the include-pattern don't seem to be settled just yet
[15:23:57] <Ronnos> hmm, i'm wondering in which countries microformats are popular right now...
[15:24:15] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
[15:24:23] <trovster> <div class="hentry include-YOUR-hCard-ID"> heh :)
[15:24:25] <pnhChris> reviewer:: The optional field specifies the person who authored the review. If the reviewer is specified, an hCard representing the reviewer MUST be provided. For anonymous reviews, use "anonymous" (without quotes) for the full name of the reviewer. If no "reviewer" is found inside the hReview, parsers should look outside the hReview, in the context of the page, for the "reviewer". If there is no "reviewer" outside either, then
[15:24:26] <cbarrett> well, the uF list and wiki are English, so probably mostly english speaking countries.
[15:25:06] <McNulty> I see what you mean with that middle step
[15:26:33] <pnhChris> I mean i totally agree with the should ADDRESS.. and i think that the hreview and atom spec could meet in the middle somewhere
[15:26:57] <pnhChris> but sometimes you're not sing address.. either because HTML is dumb, or perhaps ADDRESS is used elsewhere
[15:27:05] <pnhChris> but
[15:27:20] <cbarrett> Ronnos: there's also a french wiki, a japanese wiki, a spanish wiki, and a very small german wiki
[15:27:31] <Ronnos> noticed that cbarrett
[15:27:54] <Ronnos> but in which countries are the uF really being implemented
[15:28:07] <Ronnos> UK? US?
[15:28:35] <briansuda> there is a big group of Germans who are always presenting on the topic
[15:28:46] <Ronnos> leading countries in uF implementions...
[15:29:08] <briansuda> well, Yahoo is a global company so it is hard to say how many people USE flickr/upcoming, etc
[15:29:44] <pnhChris> has wordpress.com done much internationalization?
[15:29:50] <Ronnos> because, in Holland they are (as far as i know) not really popular at the moment
[15:30:23] <briansuda> i think there might have been some presentations at barcamp-amsterdam
[15:30:46] <McNulty> Ronnos - I'm sure if someone wanted to translate the wiki that'd help ;-)
[15:30:55] <Ronnos> lol
[15:31:10] <cbarrett> Most people in .nl speak some English, right?
[15:31:29] <Ronnos> yup
[15:31:43] <McNulty> I tried speaking Dutch in a burger king in Amsterdam, and the guy behind the counter said 'sorry, I don't speak Dutch'
[15:31:50] <Ronnos> Lol
[15:32:05] <Ronnos> at the Leidse plein perhaps?
[15:32:27] <McNulty> Is that that square?
[15:32:32] <McNulty> Yeees, I think so!
[15:32:39] <Ronnos> yes, nearby the cinema
[15:32:51] <McNulty> How did you guess? ;-)
[15:32:57] <Ronnos> :)
[15:33:30] <Ronnos> well, thats the route i'm always taking :)
[15:33:40] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) Quit ()
[15:33:41] <cbarrett> McNulty: lol
[15:33:41] <Ronnos> movie, popcorn, junkfood :)
[15:33:53] <cbarrett> McNulty: was she from NL? Or maybe she was a student.
[15:33:56] <McNulty> cbarrett - lots of people in Germany and France speak English, but I'm sure those wiki translations aren't wasted.
[15:34:12] <cbarrett> Oh definitely.
[15:34:12] <McNulty> cbarrett - It was an english guy
[15:34:19] <Ronnos> lol
[15:34:26] <cbarrett> oh, I don't know why i thought it said girl
[15:34:29] * cbarrett must be going nuts.
[15:34:58] <Ronnos> i'm planning to write some small dutch rants about uF
[15:35:23] <Ronnos> but first i need a new high tech web 3.0 publishing platform :D
[15:36:48] <McNulty> a blog, you mean ;-P
[15:37:07] <Ronnos> something like that :P
[15:37:25] <Ronnos> but a very special blog, with comments!
[15:37:30] <Ronnos> a young boys dream :)
[15:37:50] <McNulty> The comments are hard to generate
[15:38:05] <Ronnos> lol
[15:38:15] <Ronnos> maybe i use a guestbook for that part :D
[15:38:23] <pnhChris> comments are easy to generate.. just turn off all spam measures
[15:38:25] <pnhChris> :P
[15:38:39] <Ronnos> true true
[15:39:06] <McNulty> "Wow, what a great post! There's something you might be interested in at http://v14grA.com"
[15:39:16] <Ronnos> ahahaha
[15:40:50] <Ronnos> i think the problem with uF is that 98% of the people arent aware of them
[15:41:17] <Ronnos> so a lot of people (like the big bosses) don't see them as valuable
[15:41:50] <pnhChris> but the inverse of that is true as well.. they're not necessarily something people (on the consuming end of the markup) need to be aware of
[15:42:06] <pnhChris> so working them in is easy
[15:42:27] <Ronnos> true true
[15:42:37] <pnhChris> no hurdle or other tool that needs to be OK'd by the big bosses
[15:42:59] * McNulty had his vcards stripped out of a page by a designer redoing the CSS
[15:43:14] <McNulty> people not being aware of them isn't always a bonus ;-)
[15:44:31] <pnhChris> yeah.. i've been liberally commenting things when i have built the last few markup templates i've built
[15:44:54] <Ronnos> the yellow pages uF style
[15:45:22] <pnhChris> (e.g.  )
[15:45:57] <pnhChris> and other goodies
[15:51:14] <McNulty> probably a good idea
[15:51:43] <McNulty> i'm in a situation where HTML isn't strictly my area, but I seem to have better practices than the team doing it so it's endlessly frustrating
[15:53:43] <Ronnos> i think that's almost a standard situation for most of us?
[16:05:50] <Whafro> drewinthehead: ping
[16:06:40] <drewinthehead> pong
[16:06:58] <drewinthehead> wassup Whafro?
[16:06:59] <Whafro> hey, I'm using your rel-lint to check rel-tag entries that we're developing into our platform
[16:07:05] <drewinthehead> ok
[16:07:15] <Whafro> and I just want to verify manually that this format works... because I'm skeptical
[16:07:17] <Whafro> http://client46.stage.grassroots.com/panettablog/index.jhtml;jsessionid=GGIQ1RXCYEYH2CQQPAHCFEY?topicId=1599&/Literature
[16:07:36] <Whafro> the lint identifies the Literature tag, which is good, because we're hoping that suffices, but I want to double-check
[16:09:04] <drewinthehead> those tags shouldn't be working :(
[16:09:11] <Whafro> ah hah
[16:09:19] <Whafro> it also allows for unencoded spaces in the tags
[16:09:29] <Whafro> ie
[16:09:29] <Whafro> http://client46.stage.grassroots.com/panettablog/index.jhtml;jsessionid=GGIQ1RXCYEYH2CQQPAHCFEY?topicId=1605&/Washington,%20DC
[16:09:31] <Whafro> erm
[16:09:44] <Whafro> http://client46.stage.grassroots.com/panettablog/index.jhtml;jsessionid=GGIQ1RXCYEYH2CQQPAHCFEY?topicId=1605&/Washington, DC
[16:10:15] <drewinthehead> tags should be the last fragment of the URL, but not including query strings
[16:11:01] <Whafro> yeah, that's the way I read it in the spec, but when that one passed the lint, our engineering folks took it and ran with it
[16:11:14] <Whafro> okay, good to know, thanks
[16:11:54] <McNulty> Is rel-tag case sensitive, or is that left to the tagging authority (first part of the URL)
[16:11:56] <McNulty> ?
[16:17:48] <Whafro> good question... we're pulling the tags straight from where the authority would, so it should be moot, but I'm interested to know too
[16:18:34] <Whafro> I would think that since URL fragments are typically case-sensitive, that the tags would be too, but that would be bad for looking at them across sites... so I'd guess that external implementations would be insensitive
[16:19:24] <pnhChris> i'm sure more then a few are insensitive
[16:19:40] <drewinthehead> there's a good TBL document on this .. let me see if i can find it
[16:20:56] <drewinthehead> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Axioms.html
[16:22:24] <Whafro> interesting doc- thanks
[16:26:48] <drewinthehead> looks like my tag finding line isn't working ... link.href.replace(/(.*)\/$/i, '$1').split('/').pop().split('?').reverse().pop().split('#').reverse().pop();
[16:27:15] <drewinthehead> you have to be dubious of code that sounds like a break dance routine
[16:27:44] <kapowaz> it reminds me of that 'unix is sexy' thing
[16:28:12] <Whafro> hah, true
[16:28:43] <Whafro> unzip; touch; strip; finger; mount; ... something like that
[16:30:51] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
[16:30:51] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
[16:39:41] <drewinthehead> i think i've fixed it, Whafro
[16:39:46] <trovster> drewinthehead: Can I post that on bash!
[16:40:10] <drewinthehead> post what, trovster?
[16:40:20] <trovster> The break-dance routine!
[16:40:35] <drewinthehead> sure
[16:40:43] <drewinthehead> the revised one looks like this
[16:40:53] <drewinthehead> link.href.replace(/(.*)\?(.*)$/i, '$1').split('/').pop().split('?').reverse().pop().split('#').reverse().pop();
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[16:42:18] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
[16:50:38] * cbarrett yawns
[16:51:45] <cbarrett> What's up?
[16:59:23] <kapowaz> javascript is funky
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[16:59:51] <kapowaz> pop().split().reverse().split().pop().yoww()
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[17:31:42] <kapowaz> fwiw I have created photoshop versions of the microformats logo now
[17:31:47] <kapowaz> I'll host them up somewhere shortly
[17:33:41] <kapowaz> I just need to know what the typeface is... surely somebody knows?
[17:33:45] <kapowaz> and is it freely available?
[17:35:23] <Whafro> was there not a psd version of the logo before?
[17:35:28] <Whafro> what did cederholm create it in?
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[17:39:33] <kapowaz> I've no idea what it was originally made with, but the only versions available on the wiki are SVG and Fireworks PNG
[17:39:42] <kapowaz> neither of which can be (scalably) edited in Photoshop
[17:39:58] * bear_afk is now known as bear
[17:40:19] <kapowaz> I got the impression from what Remi Prevost (who made the hosted version) wrote that Dan's version was only ever made available as a flat file
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[17:42:53] <bergie> Some more stuff about the Microformats - CRM link I mentioned earlier: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/contact-management-in-semantic-web.html
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[17:44:59] <cbarrett> bergie: nice
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[18:44:47] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[18:52:25] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[21:29:35] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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[21:36:09] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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[21:43:48] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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[22:03:12] * remi (n=remi@dsl-139-243.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
[22:03:12] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
[22:05:26] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
[22:08:07] <tommorris> Hey all - I've just had an idea. I'm going to use hCal as a user signup mechanism.
[22:08:21] <drewinthehead> cool ..
[22:08:28] <drewinthehead> wanna see a prototype? :)
[22:08:30] <kingryan> using attendees and uid's
[22:08:34] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
[22:08:37] <kingryan> ?
[22:08:38] <tommorris> Yes please.
[22:08:45] <drewinthehead> let me dig it out
[22:09:21] <drewinthehead> this is a primitive one http://allinthehead.com/demo/hkit-signup/
[22:09:26] <tommorris> Basically, my plan is - the person signs up using their e-mail address or using OpenID. Then they can fill out their profile using hCard and XFN
[22:09:27] <drewinthehead> i have an autocomplete example too
[22:09:44] <drewinthehead> an hCard on the OpenID URL?
[22:10:04] <tantek> tommorris, that makes a lot of sense, especially if their OpenID URL already has their hCard and XFN enhanced blogroll
[22:10:07] <tommorris> If it exists.
[22:10:18] <tantek> I think ClaimID might support both
[22:10:28] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[22:10:28] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
[22:10:33] <tommorris> I'm going to do some stuff like autodetect LiveJournal (the main provider of OpenID) and auto-pull their FOAF.
[22:10:50] <tommorris> Nice Prototype.js too!
[22:11:53] <tommorris> drewinthehead: do you mind if I share this on my blog and/or del.icio.us?
[22:12:34] <drewinthehead> it's a bit ropey tommorris
[22:12:39] <tommorris> Just as a demo.
[22:13:03] <drewinthehead> be sure to fully disclaim it as a rough prototype :)
[22:14:38] <tommorris> This service I'm building will also be outputting hCard, XFN and possibly hCal. And eventually lots of XOXO.
[22:15:35] * remi (n=remi@dsl-139-243.aei.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[22:16:30] <tommorris> Drew - http://blogs.opml.org/tommorris/2006/10/30#When:2:13:32PM
[22:17:47] <tantek> tommorris - priceless: "On the Internet, success brings you nutcases."
[22:17:54] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[22:18:31] * tommorris has the Scripting News style down to a tee.
[22:19:51] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 2.0/2006101023]")
[22:20:11] <Enric> off topic -- I have a question or doing something in ajax as opposed to flash. Is there a channel good to ask at in. Or could I ask here?
[22:20:42] <tommorris> Are you using an Ajax library?
[22:20:49] <kingryan> Enric: I don't know where to ask, but this isn't the right place
[22:20:53] <Enric> I'm using jquery a bit
[22:20:59] <tommorris> The Dojo library has an IRC channel - #dojo on freenode
[22:21:08] <Enric> ok, Ryan
[22:21:29] <Enric> Thanks tomorris
[22:21:33] <tantek> unless you wanted to talk about microformats.org/wiki/rest/ahah
[22:22:00] * danja_ (n=danja@host218-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
[22:22:09] <Enric> it's a more specific question, tantek...thanks.
[22:22:21] <Enric> I'll try out the #dojo channel
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[22:31:00] <bewest> #web is a good place to ask
[22:31:36] <bewest> ajax is a technique, flash is a technology... you can do something in ajax, you can use ajax to do something
[22:32:05] <bewest> erm can't do something in ajax
[22:32:52] <Enric> I'll try #web too...thanks.
[22:35:47] <KevinMarks> dojo loses points for html abuse
[22:36:45] <bewest> and bloat
[22:39:42] * mfbot (n=mfbot@69.55.232.130) has joined #microformats
[22:39:42] <jibot> mfbot is a little bot kingryan put together with pieces from mediawiki to report on wiki changes and http://microformats.org/wiki/mfbot
[22:39:47] <kingryan> hi mfbot
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[22:41:03] <kingryan> all hail mfbot!
[22:45:57] <drewinthehead> yay mfbot!
[22:46:06] <drewinthehead> tommorris: rougher than rough ... http://allinthehead.com/demo/autocomplete/
[22:46:33] * bewest hands our party hats and whistles
[22:52:02] <tommorris> Hmm - getting nothing.
[22:52:14] <drewinthehead> nothing at all?
[22:52:26] <drewinthehead> try with tantek.com ... there should be loads of hcards :)
[22:52:42] <tommorris> What's the trigger - click out? tab? enter?
[22:52:51] <drewinthehead> blur of the url field
[22:53:04] <drewinthehead> then you should be able to start typing in the name box and have it suggest names
[22:53:04] <tommorris> I'll try it in another browser
[22:53:19] <tommorris> Oh yeah - there we go. That's cool.
[22:53:33] <drewinthehead> nothing visual happens ... the idea being that the user doesn't need to learn new behaviour
[22:54:36] <tommorris> I'm thinking of writing a little script later that will take the #microformats RSS feed and just show lines that have URLs in.
[22:55:15] <tommorris> I have a feeling that will be useful - there must be so many good URL's posted here in my absence.
[22:56:41] <drewinthehead> na, we save them all just for you ;)
[22:57:39] <tommorris> Cool, thanks.
[22:57:45] <tommorris> I'll have some cool stuff to show off in a few days.
[22:58:17] <drewinthehead> it might be worth looking at the javascript the logs page uses and seeing if there's an easy way to hack in a url filter
[22:58:30] <drewinthehead> i'm sure robert will accept patches
[22:58:41] <tommorris> That's one possibility - I'm thinking of doing it on the server-side actually.
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[22:59:00] <drewinthehead> post them to a del.icio.us account :)
[22:59:02] <tommorris> I want the function to be there regardless of whether JavaScript is on, and I may want to offer the option on mobile
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[22:59:58] <tommorris> For me, there has to be a really strong case that the experience would be significantly worse without AJAX b
[23:00:03] <tommorris> ...efore using it.
[23:01:06] <tommorris> And I'd rather build a web site first and add JS/AJAX later than building a website on top of JS/AJAX
[23:01:16] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[23:01:24] <drewinthehead> sure
[23:07:37] * bear is now known as bear_afk
[23:08:54] <tantek> tommorris - re: URL filtering from #microformats - you could have the script add them automatically to various bookmarking services with the tag "microformats" and perhaps the irc nick of the poster
[23:09:31] <kingryan> or just publish them somewhere with xfolk?
[23:09:55] <tommorris> Can do - or I can just publish a second RSS feed that is just a digest of the current RSS feed, just with the URLs. It's only so that people can look them over and see the stuff people are building.
[23:10:02] <tantek> right - could do that with magnolia and do both
[23:10:23] <tantek> tommorris - or you could publish an hAtom + xFolk feed
[23:10:39] <tantek> with a link rel alternate to the Atom version for legacy aggregators ;)
[23:10:47] <tommorris> Heh heh. I do lots of XML stuff anyway, so it's only about five lines of code to do it the way I'm planning.
[23:11:48] <tommorris> It's basically: unserialize, throw a bunch of regexes at the relevant attribute in the array, and then republish.
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[23:14:10] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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[23:33:54] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.